accurate mold 43-215c

[58zouave]

hello,
after reading several threads about accurate molds I took delivery of a brass 3 cavity for the 43-215C. i just started loading blackpowder cartridge for my 1860 uberti Henry for N-SSA competition,and was wondering if anyone else loads this bullet?I was curious about what the OAL length should be.I have a lyman book showing the 427098 and this bullet is similar so would I just use the data for the Lyman bullet?any help would be greatly appreciated.

thanks 58

[Springfield]

From the looks of it I think just crimping in the crimp groove will work in a Henry. It looks an awful lot like the bullet I use.

[w30wcf]

58zouave,
Welcome to the forum. As Springfield Slim indicated, just crimp into the crimp grove.
OAL will be determined by the length of the cartridge case.

If the bullet meets the drawing dimensions then with a case length of 1.29" then the OAL would be 1.57". The Henry should chamber rounds that are 1.60" MaX OAL.

At a maximum case length of 1.31" the OAL would be 1.59" which would still work AOK.

The 43-215C was designed to maintain good accuracy out to longer ranges like its brother, the 427098, but with the right amount of added lube capacity to shoot many rounds accurately in a repeating rifle.

By the right amount of lube, I mean that prior to designing the 43-215C, I tested different lube capacities to determine the amount of lube needed to make the trip down a 24" barrel time after time with accuracy being maintained throughout. As a result, the 43-215C carries the correct amount of lube (no more than is really necessary) in a nice streamlined package......

w30wcf

[58zouave]

w30wcf,
I was hoping you would respond to this,your articles and research is the main reason i ordered this mold.I and others I'm sure owe you much gratitude for making our shooting the 44-40 with black powder that much more enjoyable.I was previously using the RCBS 200 FN bullet and got very good accuracy with FFFg goex in the 25 to 28 gr. by weight range.But as you know after shot # 9 or 10 the groups started to open up.
I am currently using standard RCBS dies and crimping with a Lee FCD. What do you think would be a good starting load with the 43-215C bullet?our shooting is 90% at 50 yds. and 10% at 100yds.my starting trim length is 1.295
thanks for your help
58 zouave

[w30wcf]

58zouave,
To date, I have pretty much only tried 35 grs of Goex FFG, settled** which required .17" of compression and shot very well giving velocities close to 1,200 f.p.s.

32 grs of Goex FFG would require about .09" compression on a settled** charge and personally I would not go lower than that.

30 grs of Goex FFG, not settled (straight from the powder neasure) would be ok but likely not as accurate.

**powder dumped slowly ...3-5 seconds ....from another cartridge case being held about 4-5" above the funnel. I drop 50 charges from the powder measure into 50 cases in a loading block. THen I empty 1 case into a powder pan and then each successive case into the one before it....... finally dumping the powder from the pan into case #50.

Sincerely,
w30wcf

[58zouave]

w30wcf,
thanks for the advice I loaded up 60 rds. today starting at 28,30,and 32 grains of 20 rounds each.I am going to try them tomorrow and see what groups best.this accurate mold is a work of art and drops superb bullets but the big brass blocks do get a little heavy before long!

58zouave

[w30wcf]

58zouave,
Please let us know the results of your testing when you get the chance.

Yes, those brass molds are a bit heavy. Since I drop pour, I just place it on the rest bar of my RCBS pot otherwise I may start building more muscle in my left arm.:-D

w30wcf

[58zouave]

W30wcf,
today I made it to the range finally and all three loads grouped pretty well.This bullet is certainly a winner,In my henry 28 gr. of FFF goex grouped overall the best at 50 and 100 yds.loads of 30 grains and 32 were both under 2 inches for 5 shots at 50 yds. but point of impact was a little to the left of aim.This was not the case for 28 grains,point of impact was to the point of aim.
i shot 10 round groups at 100 yds. and once i got the sighters spotted adjusted the ladder sight and slow fired off the bags.The 28 grain load put the remaining 8 shots inside 3 inches:drinks:.The 30 and 32 grain loads were around 51/2 inches.So it appears in my particular gun 28 grains with the 43-215C works best.All loads were loaded from the powder measure without drop tubes which leads me to think i was crushing the charge to much with the heavier loads(I'm new at this )I am going to try 32 grains with some borrowed drop tubes and see if that makes a difference.I will try and post pics of targets this week.

sorry for the long post,58zouave

[w30wcf]

58zouave,
Thank you for the range report. What lube are you using? I have found that a lube that is too tacky (NASA for example) works very well with the two lube grooved 427098, BUT does not work well with the 43-215C as groups are over double in size @ 100 yards. I think the reason is that it is sticking to the bullet longer and disrupting the flight a bit.

I have used SPG and DD's Pearl lube with equally good results.:smile:

Interesting that the 28 gr load shot better than the 30 and 32. Where they shot in that order? 10 of the 28, then 10 of the 30, etc?

If so, I wonder if the not settled powder with minimal compression might be fouling the barrel more than a heavier charge of settled powder(?).

With the 35 gr load of settled Goex FFG, I have shot 40 rounds in a row with accuracy being the same from start to finish....... 3" range @ 100 yards.

w44wcf

[58zouave]

w30wcf

the lube i use is a homemade recipe that i use for lubing my minies also.i have found it works just as well as SPG for my muzzleloaders so I would think its fine for the 44-40 also.


you are correct that groups were shot in order from lowest to highest,but I did wet patch wipe the bore followed by two dry patches between each group so I would have a clean bore for each load.

I am going to load up 20 more rds. each at 30 and 32 grains using the drop tubes and maybe 30 or 40 at 28 grains and shoot the heavier charges first.overall I am very happy with the accuracy of all the loads at 50 yds. but for some reason 28 grains was far better at 100yds.:?:

maybe the gentlemen asking me about the henry and black powder while I was shooting the final shots at 100 distracted me a little but I didn't think so.thanks for your help,and for reference my load is;
starline nickel case,CCI large pistol primer,28 grains FFF goex unsettled,43-215C bullet sized to .431,lube is homemade recipe.


one more thing,after every shot of the 32 grain load there was a small spot of smoking debris on the ground in front of the bench(lube or unburnt powder maybe?) but only with that load.

regards,58Zouave

[w30wcf]

58zouave,
Thank you for the update. I have never tried accuracy testing an unsettled charge of b.p. but based on your experience, I just might add that to the list of future experiments.

I would suggest also testing the charge amount of your FFFG that will give at least .12" of compression on a settled charge if 32 grs. is not enough.

w44wcf

[58zouave]

w30wcf,

here are the targets I shot this past weekend,again the 28gr. worked very well and the 32 gr. settled with the 2 foot drop tube also shot very well.There was noticeably more felt recoil with the heavier charge though,so I don't see any advantage of using the heavier load as all our shooting is done standing.Targets in order 28 gr at 50 yds. then 32gr. at 50 and then 28 gr. at 100.all are ten shot groups ,the first 2 at 100 were spotters as this was the first i ever shot my Henry at 100 yds. I did not clean the gun this time at all from start to finish.
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg167/58zouave/28gr50.jpg
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg167/58zouave/32gr50.jpg

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg167/58zouave/28gr100.jpg

[w30wcf]

58zoave,
Nice shooting! The 100 yard target is certainly impressive discounting the sighter shots....and with 28 grs of unsettled powder! Interesting :drinks:

I'm going to have to give your unsettled powder charge recipes a try.

Very glad to see that the 43-215C is working well for you.:mrgreen:

w30wcf

[iron brigade]

I know this is an old thread, but I am where the OP was at the time. David (Cajun shooter) has graciously sent up some bullets for me to try. (43-210b) anyway this is good info for me. Accurate has a vast mold selection. very nice web site.

[cajun shooter]

My bullet is the 43-210B not the C Iron brigade. W30wcf and I have both been shooting the 44WCF cartridge for many years with real BP. He ended up designing the 43-215C after shooting my bullet in his Marlin with the 24"barrel. He posted a video of the testing on this forum if you do a search. My bullet was designed after the original 427098 Lyman which was the original bullet for the cartridge. Over the years, Lyman modified the design with more rounded and smaller lube grooves which works fine for smokeless powder but not BP.
I contacted Tom at Accurate about 6 or so years ago and sent him the drawing for the 43-210B. It works very well for me in my 20"barrel guns. I also make my own lube but use NASA lube when I have it. My lube has proven to work as well for me but NASA is one of the best I've ever used.
When doing a search of postings by W30 wcf, look at W44wcf also as it is one and the same person. John has done a lot for shooters with all of his postings on this subject. Take Care David AKA Cajun shooter

[iron brigade]

my mistake. looking forward to shooting them. if it would only warm up a little. -14 today w/o the wind chill:(

[cajun shooter]

I have found that if I add some Carnauba Flakes to the NASA that it gives excellent results. Much better than the SPG in our Louisiana Climate. Later david

[John in PA]

I just cast up a bunch of 43-215C in my new Accurate aluminum 2-cavity. Also destined for N-SSA competition. With 5% tin they fell out right at 220 gr. Did you use any Cream of Wheat filler in your 28 gr loads, or just load as is? I usually add enough CoW to get light compression and keep powder away from lube. Mag pistol primers, CTG Goex. (Might try Swiss or OE since I'm working up a new load anyhow). Sure wish the weather here in central PA would break. Got an original Smith, original Zouave, both new to me, and the new Henry bullet I'd like to work up before the Nat's. Instead about 5-6" fresh wet snow today!! I'm gonna shoot the first groundhog I see this spring and call him "Phil!" Who the heck made that excavating SoB the weather man anyhow??

[w30wcf]

John,
I don't think "58" visits often. I think that he did not use any filler, just dumped the powder in the case and seated the bullet.
In Starline cases, using 28 grs by weight of Goex dumped, not settled, compression using the 43-215C is about .06". With the powder settled, it is a capacity load with no compression.

R-P cases, being lighter hold about 2 gr. more powder.

Swiss powder is more dense so 28 grs. by weight would leave airspace and would require some filler

To date, I have not tried "58's" method but have used 28 grs of Goex, settled, then compressed .10" and used PSB (Polyethylene Shot Buffer). Accuracy at 100 yards has been good with groups running in the 2"-3" range.

Have fun!
w30wcf

[58zouave]

John
30 WCF is right I do not use any filler just throw right from the powder measure and seat the bullet.That is not to say you couldn't use filler and might have better results but i am satisfied without it.If you have any questions either post here or shoot me a PM I will try and check back as 30WCF is right I don't visit very often.
I do recognize your name though as I believe we both shoot in the Middle Atlantic region. Any advice from 30WCF is well worth reading twice ,he is the man when it comes to the .44-40 and black powder! Good luck
Jeff Davidson

[John in PA]

Thanks "loads" Jeff. Maybe we'll meet at the Fort.

[John in PA]

Jeff, I'm getting ready to load a batch of 43-215C's to test for the Nat's right now. I'll try the 30 gr GOEX CTG I've been shooting with a heavier bullet previously along with your 28 Gr 3F load and see what happens. Also loading for a Uberti Henry, iron frame.

[John in PA]

Jeff, I had a tiny bit more vertical stringing with the 28 gr 3F GOEX than you did. 30 gr CTG worked well, shot to the sights as currently set up, variations were more lateral (blame the operator). My long time load for N-SSA individual targets was the 245gr Keith Type bullet, cast 5% tin, 30 gr CTG GOEX, crimped lightly ahead of front band to get close to correct C.O.A.L. Still shoots the tightest groups when I do my part, but won't run through the magazine and has to be single loaded so ix-nay on team events. A lot of guys I know like the RCBS 429-240-SIL, cast hard. It's a gas check bullet, but they use it without the gas check to comply with N-SSA rules. Maybe I'll think about getting Tom to cut one with a plain base and 2 big lube grooves to come out close to the 245 gr weight.

138615

[John in PA]

Here's the new mold design with the same basic form, but greater 245gr weight. I added the extra weight to the base band so as to take best advantage of the lube. Gonna cast some up today and shoot first chance.

140163

[Outpost75]

John, that is a great looking bullet. I have the bevel-based version 43-230EB and I like it a great deal.

[John in PA]

I saw that design, but wanted the extra weight to try to duplicate the accuracy I get with the 245 KT. Other than easier case insertion, any other benefit to the bevel base?

I cast up a bunch of the 43-245C bullets today. The mold threw them at .430, weights running about 249-250 gr. with 1:20 tin:lead.

[Outpost75]

I saw that design, but wanted the extra weight to try to duplicate the accuracy I get with the 245 KT. Other than easier case insertion, any other benefit to the bevel base?

I cast up a bunch of the 43-245C bullets today. The mold threw them at .430, weights running about 249-250 gr. with 1:20 tin:lead.

Bevel base reduces finning when throat diameter revolver bullet is extruded into barrel of smaller groove diameter, and seats easier and also less prone to damage in handling.

[w30wcf]

John,
Hope your new bullet works well for you. It's deeper seating depth will provide more compression which could improve accuracy with your lighter powder charges in your rifle.

With a heavier charge of 36 / Goex FFG here's how the 43-215C's arrived on the steel javelina target at 300 meters...

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/44-40Accurate43-215C300M.jpg

w30wcf

[John in PA]

Yeah, I saw that pic. That's EXTRAORDINARY accuracy for a low BC bullet at that range! It's a winner for sure. My gun seems to like the heavier bullet, at least in the Keith-type design. I've just gotta find something a scoche more accurate in my particular gun. And, I certainly haven't exhausted all the load possibilities yet, for sure. The 43-215C is a triumph of design, and a classic for sure. I used it in combination with another of Tom's designs to work up a new .50 carbine bullet that's working out real well for me in an original Smith carbine with 34gr 3F GOEX.

140215

[w30wcf]

John,
Interesting bullet design! Glad to hear that it is working well. :D

I think I just got a bit lucky that day, but it shows that, in good conditions, that a .44-40 at 300M can be accurate and is no slouch....the bullets arriving at nearly the power of a .45 ACP at the muzzle.

Oh....forgot to mention that the rifle was wearing a 4X scope that day. My older eyes don't see the iron sights /target at that distance quite as well as they once did.

w30wcf