.38 wadcutter alloy

[ShooterAZ]

I have read that a softer alloy works better for this type of bullet and velocities. I ordered in some pure lead and some lino to experiment with. I'd like to try a 3-1 lino/lead mix to start for the .38 wadcutters. Would this alloy still be suitable in my .45ACP and mid velocity .44 loads, or would a 2-1 ratio be more appropriate for those types of loads?

Thanks...ShooterAZ

[Larry Gibson]

For the wad cutters I'd go with 20 - 80% Lino - lead. You can push that alloy upwards of 1100 fps which should work fine in your applications. The .45 handgun will need a smooth ramp for feeding though. "Harder" is not always "better", especially for what you want.

Larry Gibson

[Shiloh]

I use range scrap and WW 50/50 and they work fine. I'm strictly in the lower velocity range though.
With WW becoming scarce, goona go to range scrap only this spring. If they work, that'll be what I use.

Shiloh

[williamwaco]

For the wad cutters I'd go with 20 - 80% Lino - lead. You can push that alloy upwards of 1100 fps which should work fine in your applications. The .45 handgun will need a smooth ramp for feeding though. "Harder" is not always "better", especially for what you want.

Larry Gibson



Ditto!

[ShooterAZ]

Guys, I had a typo in my initial post. I meant 1 lino to 3 lead, or 1 to 2 for the .45
A 20 lino to 80 lead is 1 to four. Maybe I will try both and see how they work. Thanks for the input, and sorry for the typo.

Shooter

[runfiverun]

1 part lino to three lead will be a close approximation to ww's with a titch of tin.
for target loads 750 fps up through most midrange loads @ 1100 you could do with the 1-4 easily enough.

[ShooterAZ]

I will try the 1-3 first. Is there any issues with mold fill out with the 1-4?

[runfiverun]

nope you got enough tin, no issues.

[ShooterAZ]

Thanks...I am looking forward to casting and experimenting with softer boolits.

[John Boy]

3:1 Alloy
TIN ANTIMONY LEAD
3.00 9.00 88.00
TOTAL PERCENT 100.0
BHN OF MIX 17.75

2:1 Alloy
TIN ANTIMONY LEAD
2.67 8.00 89.33
TOTAL PERCENT 100.0
BHN OF MIX 16.33

Save your Linotype and use the 2:1 alloy. Hardness is not that much different which is greater than WW's

[ShooterAZ]

3:1 Alloy
TIN ANTIMONY LEAD
3.00 9.00 88.00
TOTAL PERCENT 100.0
BHN OF MIX 17.75

2:1 Alloy
TIN ANTIMONY LEAD
2.67 8.00 89.33
TOTAL PERCENT 100.0
BHN OF MIX 16.33

Save your Linotype and use the 2:1 alloy. Hardness is not that much different which is greater than WW's

I'm confused by this post... All I have right now is ingots of Linotype and ingots of pure lead. Can someone please do some "splaining"? Thanks!

[CeeHoo]

An old thread perhaps but thought not to start a new one with the same title.

Speaking of obturation and, on the other hand, potential risk of swaging down during seating, would it make any real difference between range scrap (mostly from jacketed 9x19mm) and air gun pellet lead if using one or the other as base alloy for soft .38 solid base wadcutters for the K-38, running about 820fps? I'm thinking to add just a little bit of tin to improve fill-out but thought to be a cheapskate on this. Would 40-1 be enough or should more tin be added?

As to risk of swaging down, the other day I noticed that this could happen very easily, at least with commercial HBWC. My RCBS expander plug measures .355" and when I pulled out a .358" Hornady 148gr HBWC, seated into a case expanded with this plug, the bullet now measured only .355"! Interestingly though, this kind of arrangement has caused very little leading in K-38 whose throats are in .358" range. I guess obturation of the hollow base corrects the issue. However, I have noticed some bullet tumbling which probably indicates the driving band remains more or less undersized. Accuracy about 2-3" with six shots at 25m.

As a countermeasure, I've ordered a couple of oversized (.356"-.359") expander plugs from a gunsmith so this may not be an issue in the future.

[M.A.D]

An old thread perhaps but thought not to start a new one with the same title.

Speaking of obturation and, on the other hand, potential risk of swaging down during seating, would it make any real difference between range scrap (mostly from jacketed 9x19mm) and air gun pellet lead if using one or the other as base alloy for soft .38 solid base wadcutters for the K-38, running about 820fps? I'm thinking to add just a little bit of tin to improve fill-out but thought to be a cheapskate on this. Would 40-1 be enough or should more tin be added?

As to risk of swaging down, the other day I noticed that this could happen very easily, at least with commercial HBWC. My RCBS expander plug measures .355" and when I pulled out a .358" Hornady 148gr HBWC, seated into a case expanded with this plug, the bullet now measured only .355"! Interestingly though, this kind of arrangement has caused very little leading in K-38 whose throats are in .358" range. I guess obturation of the hollow base corrects the issue. However, I have noticed some bullet tumbling which probably indicates the driving band remains more or less undersized. Accuracy about 2-3" with six shots at 25m.

As a countermeasure, I've ordered a couple of oversized (.356"-.359") expander plugs from a gunsmith so this may not be an issue in the future.

I make my own sizers and expander plugs, and they are a bees dick under ideal bullet size. I size my wadcutters to 358 ad my expander is 3575 . Mind you, All my cylinders have been opened up as well to be on .358

[6bg6ga]

I've shot straight lead and I've shot wheel weight alloy and no leading with either. My opinion here...it depends on proper diameter and speed. In excess of 1000 fps I use a harder alloy.

[Rich/WIS]

Confused by John Boy's post, the numbers seem wrong. If Lino is 84% PB, 12% SB and 4% SN the mix he shows will not give those numbers when mixed with pure lead. By my calculation 3:1 should be 96/4/1 and 2:1 should be 94+/4/1+. Haven't shot 38 in years but do shoot a lot of 45 ACP and have found straight range lead worked fine in both when properly sized and lubed and shot at target load velocities.

[Outpost75]

You can estimate the hardness of your blend easily:

LinoPounds(BHN22)+LeadPounds(BHN5) / TotalPounds = EstBHN

A 50-50 linotype-lead blend at 13.5 BHN is slightly softer than commercial hardball or Lyman No.2 alloy.
(22)+(5) /2 = 13.5

A 1:2 linotype-lead blend at "about 10.5 BHN" approximates 1:20 alloy and is well suited for revolver and black powder cartridge "smokeless" applications. (22)+2(5) /3 = 10.6 BHN

A 1:4 linotype-lead blend at 8.5 BHN approximates the hardness of 1:30 alloy and is best for black powder cartridges, in subsonic, smokeless revolver loads, or with plain based rifle bullets below 1300 fps and is satisfactory up to 1700 fps with gas checks in rifles for hollow-point hunting applications. (22)+4(5) /5 = 8.5 BHN

A 1:5 linotype-lead blend at 8 BHN approximates 1:40 alloy and is the frugal shooters best bang for the buck to make your alloy go far as possible in revolver, cowboy loads, black powder cartridge, and subsonic hollow-point hunting applications. (22)+5(5) / 6 = 8 BHN

[Echo]

Confused by John Boy's post, the numbers seem wrong. If Lino is 84% PB, 12% SB and 4% SN the mix he shows will not give those numbers when mixed with pure lead. By my calculation 3:1 should be 96/4/1 and 2:1 should be 94+/4/1+. Haven't shot 38 in years but do shoot a lot of 45 ACP and have found straight range lead worked fine in both when properly sized and lubed and shot at target load velocities.

John Boy has the right numbers, just in reverse order, or something Three-to-one Lino/Pb will give the numbers he shows, not reverse Pb/lino. Samo for 2 to 1...

[gwpercle]

Elmer Keith suggested 1 part tin to 20 parts lead for all light and normal pressure loads .
That's in chapter 4 " Sixgun Cartridges and Loads " .
I'm no good with numbers so somebody else needs to calculate how much linotype and lead that works out to .
The boolits do not need to be hard to be accurate .
Gary

[greenjoytj]

Rotometals Linotype Alloy 4%-Tin, 12%-Antimony, and 84%-Lead BHN 22
If you added and equal amount of pure lead then the tin and antimony content in the batch of alloy would be cut in half, so you would now have 2% tin, 6% Antimony and 92% lead.
I think you will need to buy some pure Tin.
Lyman 2 alloy 5% tin, 5% Antimony and 90% lead BHN 16.

[bmortell]

when I tried pure lead 38 wadcutters in a snub they were skidding/smearing rifling, idk whats the proper term. I went to 2% antimony and water dropped. for something not meant for expanding on game I don't worry much about tin, if it casts ok then its good enough.

[Green Frog]

when I tried pure lead 38 wadcutters in a snub they were skidding/smearing rifling, idk whats the proper term. I went to 2% antimony and water dropped. for something not meant for expanding on game I don't worry much about tin, if it casts ok then its good enough.

Antimony makes your alloy harder, tin makes it cast better. Regardless of what else is in your pot, a little tin is usually a good idea. I used pure lead to pure tin at a 25:1 ratio for my Schuetzen bullets with excellent results. For pistols and especially revolvers, I like old COWWs with just a % or two of tin to make them cast better. Lately range scrap is getting more attractive, and I can just cast it as is or add a touch of tin to make the bullets fill out better.

Your smearing and skidding experience is more likely a function of sizing rather than anything else in pistols and revolvers. You should begin by sizing your bullets a bit over groove diameter (say .001") and lube properly and your leading problems will probably go away if your barrel is any good at all. Harder (or softer) won't make all that much difference at handgun velocities if size is right.

Froggie

PS Swaged HBWCs are just about pure lead, and I've shot many thousands of those through my 38 revolvers without any significant leading. Again, the size of the bullet is the thing.

[bmortell]

Your smearing and skidding experience is more likely a function of sizing rather than anything else in pistols and revolvers. You should begin by sizing your bullets a bit over groove diameter (say .001") and lube properly and your leading problems will probably go away if your barrel is any good at all. Harder (or softer) won't make all that much difference at handgun velocities if size is right.

I actually dont own a size die in 38 cal, so i cant be sizing wrong. I was just using lee wadcutter as is tumble lubed, i just mic'd them at .3594, i use a 2" model 60, its happy with everything else, but soft wadcutters are all sideways by 7 yds with big smeared rifling grooves on the boolits. Just standard load and clean barrel. Maybe wadcutters dont like me as much as i like them.

[Conditor22]

To help clarify

"Lino, 1Pound =(BHN22) + Pure Lead 1#Pound =(BHN5) ------ (Total BHN)/ TotalPounds = EstBHN"

Lino # of Pounds x (BHN22)+Lead # of Pounds x(BHN5) = total BHN / Total # of Pounds = EstBHN

1# lino to 4# pure= (1x22) + (4x5) = 22+20 = 42 BHN / 1#+4# = #5. 42/5= 8.4 BHN

[Forrest r]

I ran countless 1000's of cast h&g #50 wc's cast out of 8bhn/9bhn alloy & lubed in the bottom 2 lube grooves only for decades. Same for the 45acp/h&g #68's, 8bhn/9bhn. The #50 wc's were sized to .358" and the 68's were sized to .452". Both were lubed with the nra 50/50 back then.

If it was me I'd go with a 1 to 5 lino/lead alloy and try them air cooled (+/- 8bhn). If they need to be a little harder simply water drop them to bring them up to +/- 11bhn.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Just asking but why only lube 2 of the lube grooves and not all 3

[Time Killer]

I load a lot of these. I use soft lead with a little tin mostly. This has become one of my favorite rounds. I load it light so I can shoot as much as I desire when I go to the range. They shoot good groups. The ladies like them to as they have a very mild recoil. Now I also have some that I load for my 357 and I push them at the upper end. I use 50/50 ww/soft lead for them and they work just fine. All depends on how you want to load them. Both of these loads shoot for me good out to 50 yards.

[6bg6ga]

I ran countless 1000's of cast h&g #50 wc's cast out of 8bhn/9bhn alloy & lubed in the bottom 2 lube grooves only for decades. Same for the 45acp/h&g #68's, 8bhn/9bhn. The #50 wc's were sized to .358" and the 68's were sized to .452". Both were lubed with the nra 50/50 back then.

If it was me I'd go with a 1 to 5 lino/lead alloy and try them air cooled (+/- 8bhn). If they need to be a little harder simply water drop them to bring them up to +/- 11bhn.

I think water dropping them is overrated in that the hardness seems to change over time according to my hardness tester.

I run either straight lead or wheel weight lead sized to .358 without any problems.

[Green Frog]

I think water dropping them is overrated in that the hardness seems to change over time according to my hardness tester.

I run either straight lead or wheel weight lead sized to .358 without any problems.

Does your straight lead drop out of the mould noticeably smaller than WWs? This has been my experience. I still think that getting the final size right is the critical step... there are rifle bullets I can shoot “as Cast” but those are exceptionally good moulds cut to size for the alloy and bore.

In answer to the question about not filling all the lube grooves, with smokeless powder and good barrels, a lot less lubrication is needed. Think about the wax and graphite on the knurled surface of staged bullets and the relatively thin film on tumble lubed bullets. One or two good rings of lubricant would be much more actual volume of lube than either of those. I do have some old rifle bullet designs with 4 or more lube grooves. I think some of the Perfection (adjustable length) moulds had 6 or more rings when made full weight. I lube those with an Ideal 450, so all the grooves get filled like it or not.

Froggie

[tazman]

Just asking but why only lube 2 of the lube grooves and not all 3

There have been several studies done(sorry, I can't post a link) over the years as to how much lube gives best accuracy with cast wadcutters. It was always found to be filling one or two lube grooves gave the best accuracy.

I can't say that the difference is significant. I am not a good enough shot to be able to tell.

[lotech]

It's worth experimenting with different alloys, even for wadcutters at moderate velocity. I seldom shoot wadcutters anymore except in a Model 52 S&W and I doubt I shoot that gun more than once or twice a year. Wheelweight alloy H&G #50s shoot accurately in it. I've never tried another alloy for the 52.

However, I shot linotype wadcutters in .38 Special revolvers when I began casting years ago. I regret not taking notes at that time, but I seem to recall linotype shot very well with Bullseye powder using standard dosages, 2.7 or 2.8 grs. No hard and fast rules here.

[GBertolet]

I found the lubing only one groove of a multi groove bullet, gave better accuracy, with less smoke, at mid range velocities. Apparently the NRA thinks so also, as they had good results in their target load development, mentioned in their cast bullet manuals.

[6bg6ga]

Does your straight lead drop out of the mould noticeably smaller than WWs? This has been my experience. I still think that getting the final size right is the critical step... there are rifle bullets I can shoot “as Cast” but those are exceptionally good moulds cut to size for the alloy and bore.

In answer to the question about not filling all the lube grooves, with smokeless powder and good barrels, a lot less lubrication is needed. Think about the wax and graphite on the knurled surface of staged bullets and the relatively thin film on tumble lubed bullets. One or two good rings of lubricant would be much more actual volume of lube than either of those. I do have some old rifle bullet designs with 4 or more lube grooves. I think some of the Perfection (adjustable length) moulds had 6 or more rings when made full weight. I lube those with an Ideal 450, so all the grooves get filled like it or not.

Froggie

My molds are oversize so if there is any difference before sizing its not going to matter. All my 38's/357's are sized to .358 on the Star sizer with Lathesmith sizing dies. I simply don't measure anything before its sized. Once sized I occasionally check bullets with a micrometer. I also do the visual test and look at the bullet to see that its been sized all the way around it. No problems with bullets getting stuck in the molds either as everything simply drops out.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

thanks

[6bg6ga]

I would concentrate on proper fit first before I began to worry about hardness.

Like I mentioned the 45acp WILL be fine provided the bullet fit is good with pure lead. I've shot thousands thru my 1911's.

The 38 with wadcutters should be fine if properly fit with straight lead simply because your not pushing it over 1000 fps.

The 44 magnum I would like to see using #2 Alloy and properly fit.

[TCFAN]

I have always cast my wadcutters from straight clip on wheel weights. Now I am running low on WW and have changed my wadcutters to 30-1 pure lead to pewter.I can not tell any difference in accuracy with my 686. My load with wadcutters in wadcutter 38 special brass is 3.2 grs. of Bullseye and the Lyman 358495 sized at .359 using BAC in one lube groove of the boolit with no leading at all.