Safariland speedloaders: I don't get it

[pastorcurtis]

For shooting friendly matches of IDPA I've been experimenting with HKS and Safariland speedloaders for a Security Six. A vast majority of the folks commenting on various discussions online say they prefer the Safariland push-click style, that it is faster, etc. But for the life of me, I don't get it. It seems to me that if I don't get that Safariland (this is a Comp II model) in their just straight, the thing binds up and won't press home to click the release.

Is there some trick I'm missing? I'm sticking with HKS for now - but I'm just really wondering if this is user error as so many others swear by the Safariland and at the HKS where I feel the opposite.

pastorcurtis

[subsonic]

Get grips that have more clearance to avoid binding.

[pastorcurtis]

It's not binding on the grips. Let me try to explain better.

In the center of the plunger of my Comp II is a hollowed out area that is meant to accept the tip of the star extractor. As best I can tell, if the cartridges don't go in perfectly straight the tip of the extractor hits the ridge instead of that center hollowed area on the plunger. When this happens, no matter how hard you push, it won't go home.

Am I the only one who has this problem with this speedloader?

[Kraschenbirn]

Does this occur with all your Comp IIs (assuming you've got more than one)? I've got a dozen that I've been using for several years in my S&Ws (K & L frames) without any significant problems. On the other hand, I've chamfered and polished the cylinder mouths on all my revolvers and taper crimp my rounds for smoother reloads.

One the other hand, I've run across a couple of recent product reviews that might indicate that Safariland may be having some QC issues, too.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

The simplicity of the HKS loaders has a lot of appeal for me. 35 years of great service.

[Larry Gibson]

I've both kinds as I use them for my M15 and M19 along with my Ruger Security Six since the mid '70s. I've always prefered the HKS for the same reasons the OP states. Many years ago when a LEO and carrying the M15 (issued - no other choice) .38 SPL I shot a lot of IPSC matches with it in Service Revolver category. I could do a reload from the pouch in right at 1 second. I pulled the speed loader by the knob, the loosness of the rounds let them enter the chambers easily, a quick twist of the knob, let it fall and close the cylinder. BTW; I used the quick way to open and dump the empties with one hand (left) while the right hand was getting the speed loader. The Safariland work ok only if everything lines up correctly and are not nearly as fast as the HKS.

Larry Gibson

[imashooter2]

If there is a ridge that is causing a problem, what happens when you cut the ridge away?

[pastorcurtis]

imashooter2,

I've thought about that, too. Also perhaps filling the hole. . .

Larry,

I'm glad I'm not alone! I might try that clearing with the left hand only.

Thanks for all the comments.

pastorcurtis

[98Redline]

I can't comment on your particular application but I used to use the HKS loaders for all of my wheelguns (still have quite a few) but semi recently switched over to the Safariland loaders.

I haven't ever found that the Safariland speedloaders hung up and precluded the cartridges from being released. Do you possibly have a burr somewhere (maybe on the extractor star) that is digging into one of the cartridges and preventing it from fully inserting?

[MT Gianni]

I've both kinds as I use them for my M15 and M19 along with my Ruger Security Six since the mid '70s. I've always prefered the HKS for the same reasons the OP states. Many years ago when a LEO and carrying the M15 (issued - no other choice) .38 SPL I shot a lot of IPSC matches with it in Service Revolver category. I could do a reload from the pouch in right at 1 second. I pulled the speed loader by the knob, the loosness of the rounds let them enter the chambers easily, a quick twist of the knob, let it fall and close the cylinder. BTW; I used the quick way to open and dump the empties with one hand (left) while the right hand was getting the speed loader. The Safariland work ok only if everything lines up correctly and are not nearly as fast as the HKS.

Larry Gibson

Interesting. I was taught to push the cylinder release with my right hand while the index finger started the cylinder open. The thumb took over pushed and held the cylinder open while the index and middle fingers ejected the brass. The left hand went to the pouch and inserted and ejected the speed loader. Right hand closed the cylinder and you were back on target. Make sure that whatever way you train for is the best for you. I also liked the simplicity of the HK release.

[Larry Gibson]

Interesting. I was taught to push the cylinder release with my right hand while the index finger started the cylinder open. The thumb took over pushed and held the cylinder open while the index and middle fingers ejected the brass. The left hand went to the pouch and inserted and ejected the speed loader. Right hand closed the cylinder and you were back on target. Make sure that whatever way you train for is the best for you. I also liked the simplicity of the HK release.

That is the slow way and most often taught for some reason????

Assuming shooting right handed the quick way is;

With a two handed grip when shooting the thumb latch is pushed forward (in on Ruger’s and pulled back on Colts) with the right hand while the left hand slips under the trigger guard so it is in the palm of the hand with the bottom of the trigger guard at the heel of the left hand.

This puts the index finger around the front of the frame where the barrel screws in. The little finger is wrapped over the "saddle" of the hammer. The two middle fingers push the cylinder open and hold it open. The thumb goes to the end of the ejector rod. This gives a very solid hold of the revolver.

The revolver muzzle is pointed up and the ejector pushed vigorously with the thumb. This ejects the empties. With smooth chambers they will all eject but if one hangs up a slight twist of the cylinder with the middle fingers and/or a quick jerk up and down gets them all out.

While this is all happening (very quickly with practice) the right hand goes to the ammo pouch and retrieves a HKS speed loader by the knob using the thumb, index and middle fingers. As the speed loader is brought to the revolver which the left hand has moved to it's side with the cylinder up and the muzzle down at 30 - 45 degrees at or slightly above waist level (assuming a standing position). The left thumb moves to the side of the cylinder securely holding between the thumb and the middle fingers. This, again, is a very secure grip of the revolver with the left hand.

The rounds in the speed loader are lined up with and inserted into the chambers (a slight wiggling of the cylinder with the thumb and middle fingers of the left hand is sometimes needed with SWCs or WCs), the knob of the HKS speed loader is turned (the middle fingers of the left hand are holding the cylinder from turning) releasing the cartridges which slide into the chambers. The speed loader knob is let go of as soon as it is turned and it will fall out of the way on it's own.

The right hand transitions to the grip, the left thumb closes the cylinder and the left hand then transitions to the two handed hold in one fluid movement as the revolver is brought back up the eye level in shooting position.

Sounds like a lot but once practiced it goes very, very quickly, much quicker than the often taught method.

Larry Gibson

[MGySgt]

Larry - That is the way learned it back in the early 70's shooting PPC - even works well with speed strips.

I am a lefty - the only difference is that I start the movement of the left hand down and around the cylinder as the right thumb is pushing on the clyinder release.

[Mk42gunner]

Larry's description is how I was taught in Rangemaster school. It works well for me.

I have tried using Safariland speedloaders and couldn't get them to work for me, maybe they were worn out? I decided to stick with the HKS's since they have always worked for me.

Robert

[Larry Gibson]

BTW; I had my speed loader pouch located to the left of the duty belt buckle in front where it was the quickest to get to with the right hand coming from the hold on the revolver without having to search for the pouch. I still carry them there........

Larry Gibson

[9.3X62AL]

BTW; I had my speed loader pouch located to the left of the duty belt buckle in front where it was the quickest to get to with the right hand coming from the hold on the revolver without having to search for the pouch. I still carry them there........

Larry Gibson

Interesting. I'm right-handed, learned to use left index and middle fingers to turn cylinder open while using right thumb to operate the cylinder latch--left thumb to hit ejector rod--right hand to reach for speedloader pouches to the right of the webgear/belt buckle and to the left of the holster. When we converted to autoloaders, I used/use the right hand to release the magazine and the left to help strip out a bottom-release mag--OR--reach immediately for the spare mag located to the left of the belt buckle. To date, I have yet to confuse sides or locations when qualifying.

[Green Frog]

Larry's method mirrors what I used shooting PPC back in the day, except that I had to use Safariland speed loaders. I tried HKS and never could get the hang of getting them to work with my stock Model 66, my "mini-PPC" HB Model 10 with cover-up rib, and full house Fred Schmidt Short Cylinder gun, these latter two built by Schmidt. For competition I liked the Jet Loader/Comp III form, and to carry I preferred the Comp II. A close friend was a distributor for HKS and I really wanted to use them, but I just could never get them to work for me! :(

Froggie

[Larry Gibson]

9.3x62AL

Has nothing to do with "confusion"., has to do with speed. Distance is time, having the speed loader pouch there put it closest the the right hand and the revolver when loading from the Weaver stance i favored while keeping it in peripheral vision. Quicker than reaching to either side or possibly fumbling with other accouterments carried on an LEO's gunbelt. Your loacation on the right side of the belt buckle was as good for some, especially on a range when facing square on to the target and using the isosceles stance, but not for me, especially when I would be hugging cover to reload. I had no qualms with those who carried the pouches elsewhere but they couldn't figure it out why I always was just a little faster on the reload than they were......distance is time.

When I went to a M1911 for duty The mag pouch was on the left front also for the very same reasons. BTW; if a mag wouldn't drop free on it's own loaded or empty I would pitch the mag and get one that would.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Froggie

Sometimes ya just got to go with what you first learned with....... or is something about trying to teach an old dog new tricks[smilie=l:

Larry Gibson

[TXGunNut]

I did it very much like you did, Larry. I used HKS for several years of PPC shooting but changed over to the Comp III Safariland loaders after they improved on the Jet Loader. My "stock" cylinders were also slightly chamfered, open gun more so. Could practically toss them in there. I generally started 2 rounds at the top of the cylinder (next to my left thumb) and rocked them in from there. I used the Comp III's for about 10 yrs and liked them but they were a bit different at first, and only slightly faster after a good bit of practice. I liked the play in the HKS loader and still use them for social equipment for one reason: if an HKS loader is dropped you can pick it up and use it. If you drop a Safariland loader, especially a Comp III, you better have another one because all six rounds probably went in different directions.

[Green Frog]

Froggie

Sometimes ya just got to go with what you first learned with....... or is something about trying to teach an old dog new tricks[smilie=l:

Larry Gibson

Oddly enough, I actually tried the HKS first and tried to develop a comfortable and effective sequence using them... I was about convinced that speedloaders in general were a bust until I started using Comp IIs and then IIIs. I think it has to do with the shooter's own angle of attack on the cylinder, etc and that's why so many of both kinds were made and sold.

... and you really get frustrated trying to teach an old Frog new tricks! :mrgreen:

Froggie

[Wheeler]

Safariland loaders require the loader and rounds be aligned with the cylinders. The HKS due to the amount of slop does not. While it ht be easier to fudge the HKS I have never felt like it was faster. At one time I could accomplished a 1.5 second shot to shot reload using Safariland Comp 2's,a split six speedloader holder and a 686 from concealment. While not nearly that fast I can still perform a sub three second reload using the same equipment.
Perception of speed is not the same as speed. I would recommend the use of a shot timer to check actual performance.

[Larry Gibson]

I would recommend the use of a shot timer to check actual performance.

That's how it was done. However, the shot timer measures from last shot, reload and then next shot. So you have re aiming and trigger time in there too. I also was just about as fast with the Safariland if all went well and they lined up right. If they don't line up right initially they can be quite a bit slower than the HKS. As I stated I was down to right at a 1 second reload with the HKS and my M15 when I was at the top of my game.

One other plus to the HKS in a tactical situation is if dropped sometimes the rounds all pop out of the Safariland. Also if carried loose in a pocket, jacket or pants, and the button gets pushed (as in sitting in a car/PU....been there had it happen too many times) the rounds all pop out too. They won't with the HKS.

I still have the 2 origianl Safariland I got for my M15 and still use them occasionally. I have HKS speed loaders for the S&W M31, M15/M19, the Ruger Security Six, S&W M57/M58 andn my Colt .44 Anaconda if that tells you anything of my preference.

Larry Gibson

[Wheeler]

Larry,

I've been carring a revolver in one form or another for around 12 years now. I have never had the rounds come loose from a dropped Safariland, wether dropped or in my pocket. I've seen that happen with the HKS and the Dades but never with the Safariland.

I have HKS for most of my revolvers only because I can't find them in a Safariland. For instance, my M-28, M-16, M-30 Safariland either doesn't make or stopped making them.

In regards to using a shot timer, reacquiring the sights and breaking the next shot should not really be that much of an issue on static targets, which is how my times were measured. That's the only way I know of to consistently and accurately measure reload times.

Best Regards,
Wheeler

[Larry Gibson]

Wheeler

I've been carring a revolver in one form or another for around 12 years now. I have never had the rounds come loose from a dropped Safariland, wether dropped or in my pocket. I've seen that happen with the HKS and the Dades but never with the Safariland.

Most often happens in a pocket with keys or other objects that press the release button. Also I was an Advanced Firearms Instructor for a state and spent lots of time on ranges with officers (recruits to very experienced) using all of those speed loaders. You'd be surprised at how many got dropped under pressure of "qualification" or during a local PPC/TRC match. Saw them all lose rounds with the Dades being the most common, Safariland next. Never saw an HKS lose rounds when dropped. Saw rounds lost when the knob was turned on the pouch on extraction and when turned before rounds were in the chamber. All in all the HKS gave the best cartridge retainment and quickness of reloading, probably not by a lot but by a noticeable amount at least.

I have HKS for most of my revolvers only because I can't find them in a Safariland. For instance, my M-28, M-16, M-30 Safariland either doesn't make or stopped making them.

You'll note I have both HKS abd Safariland. I never said the HKS was "better", just said the HKS was "faster", which it is for me. No real argument here as I never told anyone to get rid of the Safarilands and get HKS. I let the Dades misperformance speak for themselves.

In regards to using a shot timer, reacquiring the sights and breaking the next shot should not really be that much of an issue on static targets, which is how my times were measured. That's the only way I know of to consistently and accurately measure reload times.

None the less, the shot timer still measures " reacquiring the sights and breaking the next shot" which regarless of it not being" much of an issue on static targets" it is still an "issue" and doesn't measure just the reload time. Size of the target, shape of the target and distance to the target will all influence the amount of time taken that is not part of the reload time.

Perhaps because you "can't find them in a Safariland" might tell you which has been the most accepted, made for most all revolvers and have been readily available for 35-40+ years. Probably a good reason for that:drinks:

Larry Gibson

[Green Frog]

Ok, Larry, on your recommendation, when I see my HKS buddy, I'll be getting a Model 30 for my .32 HE Snubbie and a Model 36 for my Baby Chief. I promise to work with them longer this time before I give up. More money to spend... I hope you're satisfied! :grin:

BTW, have you had much experience with the 5-Star speedloaders? They appear to me to be nothing but aluminum versions of the HKS from their spec sheet. :?:

Froggie

[bobthenailer]

Been using safarilands COMP 1-2 3 models in various s&w revolvers for about 20 years in matches with no problems.

[Larry Gibson]

Ok, Larry, on your recommendation, when I see my HKS buddy, I'll be getting a Model 30 for my .32 HE Snubbie and a Model 36 for my Baby Chief. I promise to work with them longer this time before I give up. More money to spend... I hope you're satisfied! :grin:

BTW, have you had much experience with the 5-Star speedloaders? They appear to me to be nothing but aluminum versions of the HKS from their spec sheet. :?:

Froggie

Well I've got 2-3+ each for my M31, M15, M19, Security Six, M57/58 (If I ever get another...kept the HKS speed loaders just in case[smilie=l:), Colt Anaconda and for my M1917 in .45 AR.........know what you mean about "more money":smile:

No experience with the 5 - Star's, just seen a couple in gunshops is all.

Larry Gibson

[Four Fingers of Death]

I started out with HKS twist the knob type speedloaders and wasn't overly in love with them. I bought HKS Jet Loaders I think they were called. They worked well and I was happy with them. When the Safariland ones came out, I bought them (shiny object syndrome). Also happy with them and can't say I ever had a problem.

At work I was in the Transport Unit escorting prisoners and we carried spare rounds. As I am short a finger (well an inch or so on the end of it), I managed to convince my bosses to let me carry the spares in a Speedloader and I used one of my HKS Jetloaders without incident. I had a fumble on the range one weekend and sent my rounds everywhere. Considering this, I went back to the old twist the knob HKS Speedloader on my duty belt.

Reading this it occurs to me that I haven't used the speedloaders for many years and I can't picture what is happening. I will have to dig them out and have a play with them.

I had to relieve the wood on the grips to make the loaders useable (the standard Model 10 grips were fine).

If I was back on teh job and was carrying my revolver again and had my choice, I'd be carrying 2-3 Old style HKS loaders and a strip loader on the back of my belt for the really deep doo doo times.

I'd really rather be carrying a Glock or a 1911 with a few spare mags though. I love my wheelguns, but for serious encounters I would prefer a powerful auto.

[Larry Gibson]

Been using safarilands COMP 1-2 3 models in various s&w revolvers for about 20 years in matches with no problems.

No argument there at all. As I've said the Safariland can and do work very well, especially at matches by those who are practiced with them, especially the Comp IIIs. However, match shooters take care of their equipment; they don't carry speedloaders in pants pockets (cargo type), jacket pockets, they don't get thrown around or banged around, they are kept clean and don't accumilate dirt, debri etc., they aren't carried on duty belts in fights, squashed by steering wheels, seat belts or other equipment. They aren't dropped because most match shooters have better control than duty officers who are being shot at which should be the case if a reload is needed. Lastly competition speed loaders are well maintained, cleaned and inspected before, during and after use/matches. If you've ever inspected the duty guns of many police officers let alone speed loaders or even ammo in belt loops you would be amazed at what you'd find. Sad to say I've even found some HKS speedloaders in pretty poor condition.

All I said was the HKS were quicker for me to use, quicker and simpliar for most others to use and that is probably why they are the most popular. The majority of speedloaders I have are HKS and when I get new ones they are HKS. However, I'm not giving up my Safariland IIs because they work well for what I now use them for.

Larry Gibson

[Wheeler]

Wheeler


None the less, the shot timer still measures " reacquiring the sights and breaking the next shot" which regarless of it not being" much of an issue on static targets" it is still an "issue" and doesn't measure just the reload time. Size of the target, shape of the target and distance to the target will all influence the amount of time taken that is not part of the reload time.

I'm always looking for ways to improve myself and my performance. How do you measure reload times in a consistent and accurate manner that takes out the element of human error?


Perhaps because you "can't find them in a Safariland" might tell you which has been the most accepted, made for most all revolvers and have been readily available for 35-40+ years. Probably a good reason for that:drinks:



Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

I'm always looking for ways to improve myself and my performance. How do you measure reload times in a consistent and accurate manner that takes out the element of human error?


"Back in the day" before electronic timers we used stop watches. Many were very proficient, especially after a week end shoot worth of “timing”. When testing such we usually had 2 or 3 “timing” and then averaged the times. Usually they were within a couple tenths of a second of each other if that. We had a few heated discussions back then on the “shot to shot” start/stop method and decided against it because of the additional variables (mentioned in previous post) added between when the gun was actually reloaded and another shot was fired. So to simply to test reload time we came up with; start was at the firing of a round which signified “gun empty” and stopped at the “clack” of the cylinder closing as at that time the reload was complete. Just the way we did it back then to measure “reload” time only. Measuring shot to shot would probably be a good index if the target was the same size and distance and there was a accuracy requirement (A zone hit) every time a measurement was taken. Otherwise the variable of target acquisition and firing time would probably make any comparisons of different times questionable. You’d still have to take in the individual reaction time past the actual reload completion involving reacquiring a good grip, good position, target acquisition, sight alignment/picture and trigger pull times.

Both methods induce a certain amount of "human error" but we felt that 2-3 timers probably reduced it as much as possible. That's just what a bunch of us came up with a long time ago. None of us are competting or pounding the bricks anymore so for us it is a moot point. I've no qualms with any way anyone else wants to measure reload time with speedloaders or with a spare mag, just telling the whys and the hows of the way we did it. It worked for us and was pretty consistent.

Larry Gibson

[Wheeler]

I suppose that would work quite well if you have a large enough group and the stopwatches. Thanks for the info.

[Larry Gibson]

Stopwatches were plentiful on ranges back then prior to "chrono" watches and timers. Times change and the timer technology has certainly made for much more precise timing of speed events. I remember some pretty healthy arguments at IPSC matches from the "gamesmen" back then over who did what how fast........The timers have pretty much eliminated that, which is a good thing.

BTW; we also had a ballistic pendelum to measure major/minor before the advent of readily available chronographs.....am I painting a dinasoar picture of myself or what.........[smilie=s:

Larry Gibson