FFg or FFFg

[xcr440]

What really is the diffrence? I understand the difference in the granuals.

[kenyerian]

The more F's the finer the powder. FFFG is often used for priming Flintlocks and FFG is used for the charge itself. I have used FFFG in my 45 cal TC Hawkens with a patched ball for target shooting. FFFG does seem to burn cleaner but at a higher Pressure. When Deer Hunting I use heavier charges of FFG to propel Maxi_ Balls. I always use FFG or Tripple 7 in my 50's.

[Rick Hodges]

After reading the lyman black powder manual sometime in the 70's I use fffg (3-f) exclusively for round ball, R.E.A.L., maxi hunters in .50 and .54 cal traditional rifles. I get the same velocity and accuracy with less powder and less fouling than ffg (2-f).

[2571]

Nothing, really.

[Shooter]

.50 and under, FFFG, over .50 Cal., FFG.

[greenmntranger]

I switched to 3f powder exclusively when I started shooting BR revolvers. Now I only stock 1 powder. For long guns, I reduce recommended powder loads by 20%.

GMR

[Geraldo]

.50 and under, FFFG, over .50 Cal., FFG.

That's the old advice, but it isn't absolute or necessary by any means. I've used 3F in .58 and .62, just reduce loads by 10-15%.

[SamTexas49]

What would be great is if someone with the eqipment to do some shooting with both powder grains, say 50 grain each in a .50 cal rifle RB. Chrono it and show the diff! Or even better be able to show the pressure diff! There may be such charts out there already in older literature ?

[waksupi]

I shoot 3FFF in everything from .32 to .62 calibers. Less powder for the same velocities, and as was said, also shoots cleaner.

I saw a mis-statement that 3FFF is used for flintlock priming. The proper powder is 4FFFF.

[mooman76]

What would be great is if someone with the eqipment to do some shooting with both powder grains, say 50 grain each in a .50 cal rifle RB. Chrono it and show the diff! Or even better be able to show the pressure diff! There may be such charts out there already in older literature ?

It has been done like you thought or at least to some degree. I'll have to see if I can find the book. I don't think they did pressures(what I saw) but they did show some velocities. Of coarse it also depends on the twist rate, barrel length and other factors.

[Black Powder Bill]

3f in all my ML'ers. from .40 rifle to 12ga fowler. It burns a tad hotter and cleaner, well as clean as can be expected. LOL

After my lot of 2f runs out I'll only keep 3f around.

I use 4f in the pan. a friend uses 3f and has no problems. I suppose it depends on the lock.

[rmark]

IIRC, the Lyman Blackpowder Handbook, 1st edition has that information. As noted above, the chemical composition is the same for 2f and 3f, but the finer 3f burns faster due to its lager surface area,with higher pressure. You should reduce your charge if moving from 2f to 3f.

[wgr]

Sam Fadala has book out that will explain it all

[DIRT Farmer]

There have been several studies on it in the past. 451 Pete can tell you that to fine of a powder will burn out a platium nipple pushing heavy charges. The touch hole liner lasts about 1/2 as long in my 28 ga trade gun with fffg as with ffg, but I get a cleaner burn in damp weather.

From my reading, fg equals a fine flour screen ffg equals a fine fine screen and so on from the old English millers standards.

[Boerrancher]

In my 50's I shoot 2FG but once it is gone I will probably just keep 3FG around, because it works well and does burn a bit cleaner. I also shot the 3F in my 32cal which gets shot way more than the 50's do. I don't have any 4FG and won't be able to get any until the 19th, so I have been using 3FG in the pan of my flinter. I have even gotten away with 2FG, though there was a slight delay that I found annoying. I am thinking that if I actually use 4FG in the pan the ignition may be faster than my cap locks. Right now with 3F it is about the same speed.

Best wishes,

Joe

[2571]

I prime with FFF. Dislike carrying a priming a horn.

[John Boy]

FFg or FFFg
What really is the diffrence? I understand the difference in the granuals.
Yes, you are correct. The difference is the size of the grains of powder used to make different grades of powder in accordance with a black powder industry standard. The grain sizes are determined by the Screening Process making the powder where the powder is 'sifted' over certified screens that have different size openings measured in microns.
Examples:
Goex 2Fg, 99NO03B
20 mesh - 79.2% retained
30 mesh - 20.8% retained

Goex 3Fg, 99JY20C
70.8% retained on a 30 mesh.
26.2% retained on a 40 mesh.
3.0% thru 40 mesh.

Sporting Grade Black Powder -- "g" type powders

Powder Grade pass screen, holding, stays on, passing

Whaling 32/64" mesh 3% 4 mesh 12%
Lifesaving 6 mesh 3% 12 mesh 12%
Cannon 6 mesh 3% 12 mesh 12%
Saluting 10 mesh 3% 20 mesh 12%
Fg 12 mesh 3% 16 mesh 12%
FFg 16 mesh 3% 30 mesh 12%
FFFg 20 mesh 3% 50 mesh 12%
FFFFg 40 mesh 3% 100 mesh 12%
FFFFFg (no longer manufactured by Goex)

The difference between using FFg or FFFg is based primarily on the burn rate (pressure generated effecting velocity) where FFFg generates more velocity than FFg for a comparable powder charge

[451 Pete]

xcr44o and all,
One thing that I have not seen mentioned here is that there is not only a difference between the different grades, or FG designation of powder, but that there are also big differences in the same granulation of powder when purchased from different manufacturers. The most readily seen difference is with the fouling or residue left inside the bore after being shot. However some brands of powder will shoot hotter (with higher resulting pressures ) within a designated granulation than others do.

Just as differing types or brands of the smokeless powders have differences in their burning characteristics, so does black powder. These differences arise from the process details of powder manufacture from different companys and in variations of the ingredients or in a percentage of an ingredient from one manufacturer to the next. Never assume that the same granulation and charge of powder will perform the same from one brand to another. It doesn't . All black powder is not the same.

Just my thoughts .... Pete :coffee:

[xcr440]

So in general if I am using 70g of FFg pyrodex rs, in theory I should use 60g of FFFg. Then if I use triple 7 FFFg I should use 50-55g.

[Rick Hodges]

You just made a quantum leap from black powder to BP substitutes. I have no idea how it relates to pyrodex and 777. My statement was for Goex black powder. I do use 777 in my inlines but that is a whole different discussion.

[shdwlkr]

xcr440

When you using either pyrodex or 777 you are working on a volume charge in the load not an actual charge weight. In black powder you are working with a actual charge weight.

It is real hard to give you a good answer as you haven't said what caliber you are switching around with.

Lets look at this a different way if you are using a .50 caliber and larger muzzle loader and your charge is 70 grains of FFG powder and you want to go to FFFG powder your start load would be 50-55 grains as you have no idea if your muzzle loader will do better or not with FFFG powder. Now you want to go to pyrodex your load on your powder measure would still be what you found to work with real black powder, lets say it worked out to be 70 grains by volume not real charge weight as pyrodex RS is still in the FFG powder classification and now you want to go to 777 FFFG you would need to set your powder measure at 50-55 grains to get a good starting charge.

The easiest way to keep things straight is what class of powder are you shooting ex 2F,3F and set your powder measure to meet this need either in real weight when using real black powder or by volume when using the substitutes.

[pietro]

I first used FFFg, when my funshop ran out of FFg - and I coincidently bought my 1st rocklock.

I couldn't see buying ANOTHER powder (FFFFg) just for priming the flinter, AND didn't want to carry a 2nd powder charger afield - so started using FFFg for both the main & prime charges in my .50 flintlock.

THAT got me started into using FFFg (Holy Black) for ALL my frontstuffers - caplocks from .32 to .54 - which I've done for the last 5 years w/o issue.

I ditched all my Pyro & other substitute BP's, when I ditched my inlines (Omega, T-Hawk) - and have used Goex or Swiss (reducing charges from Goex levels by 10%) ever since.

.

[Omnivore]

Well at some point, such as in firing a 12 pounder, you'll get better velocity using coarser powder, I guess. Much like using a very slow burning smokeless powder in a large magnum case, with the same peak pressure you can use a lot more powder to propel a heavier projectile through a longer barrel at a higher velocity using coarser powder, all else being equal. It's why we have a huge range of burning rates in smokeless powders (and in engine fuel-- the higher compression engines need a slower burning fuel or they go 'xplodey).

Sometimes faster burning is not going to give higher velocity, because pressure goes through the roof to the point of detonation (or barrel failure at least). Exothermic reactions are funny that way, and more than one chemical factory has gone up in a cloud of little bits learning that the hard way.

But black powder is a little more forgiving. Just don't over do it. See what shoots the best.

And yes; powders from different manufacturers will preform slightly different due to subtle differences in the process. Practically, that simply means that if you're using a maximum, OMG it's on the edge charge, drop it down a bit and work up if you're switching brands.

[DIRT Farmer]

In trying to work up heavy waterfoul charges in my Brown Bess, I tried fg and cannon,of which I bought 5 lbs on the cheap. fg worked with 2 oz loads with out the brutal recoil that ffg had. I still have almost 5 lbs of cannon. It's grade is "corn" about the size of a large grain of wheat.

[Alan]

I tend to use 2F Goex in everything from my .36 C&B to my 12 bore rifles and shotguns. I use 1F in my 8-bore trap gun, and 3F in my .32 RB rifles. I prime w/ whatever I'm shooting as the main charge - my 16-bore rifle shoots fine w/ 2F as the priming charge.

BTW, the g in FFg is because it is coated w/ graphite.

[Boerrancher]

BTW, the g in FFg is because it is coated w/ graphite.

This is a bit off the topic but maybe some of our resident powder monkeys can answer this; How would be the best way to coat your homemade holy black with graphite? Should one screen it first, and then dump in some graphite, stir it around and re-screen it to remove the excess graphite? Also, what exactly does the graphite do, I know it is an ingredient in spherical and extruded smokeless powders, and serves as a retardant and to add bulk in them. Does it serve the same purpose for black? Sorry for all of the questions, I hate it when I start thinking.

Best wishes,

Joe

[shdwlkr]

Joe
I believe it is to aide in some small way moisture issues with black powder and flow of the powder remember graphite is a sort of lube in locks and such.
As to when it is added I think it is done at the end of the process when you know the grain size as that would be the best time as there would still be some moisture to grab hold of the graphite so it stuck to the powder.
What the heck do I know I have only been playing with powder for 45 years and like you just keep coming up with questions. Did the same think as a combat engineer so they made me and instructor after I had asked a million questions. Only made me have even more questions ha ha showed them.

[Boerrancher]

Shdwlkr,

Combat EN huh? I spent nearly 20 years as one, and picking up every specialty school I could. In the early 90's I got the pleasure of attending SAPPER school before they closed it down and revamped it because of the number of injuries. IIRCC we started out with 50 and 19 of us graduated. There was countless broken bones, one guy lost an eye, it was brutal. When I was a 20 something kid it was all fun and games pushing myself to the limits, then when they sent me to Afghanistan, I was the only officer in the Battalion with all the High speed schools, so they farmed me out as a liaison to the the SF. Just what I wanted to be, in my late mid 30s and being stuck with a bunch of guys that were more hard core than I was when I was a kid. I got to go out with SF to assess all the potential engineer operations that the Bn was likely to encounter in the near future. Fun fun fun... I got to go places where they had never seen an American and had only heard rumors of us being there.

Best wishes,

Joe

[shdwlkr]

I was in from 69-77 and my records say I was a reservist. I got to see and enjoy a lot of things because I never learned not to volunteer.
I was the spoiler with the recent sniper grads when the army was keen on having them and I got to use an open sighted M14 and most times out shot the snipers.
got to play with the m60, ma duce, and all kinds of stuff that went boom.

Had to crawl down a pattern once as I was the NCIO of the sight when a pattern didn't go boom. Sure made and impression on me and was glad some of my active cadre came to get me when I had connected the loose wires and nothing happened. They even volunteered to crawl the pattern with me.

Got to go through the confidence course and succeeded only to have to go through it again because a friend froze 40 feet in the air on the log bridge.

I have seen some really interesting things and some really bad things in the army.
When I left they had my promotion to E8 in hand if I would just sign, it was just time to walk away as I had just to much of reality in the military. I also did time in the base hospital with returning guys that just wanted to give up. Got to see just what war does to the human body and no it is not pretty as you well know.

I was offered a chance at OCS but was told I would not be allowed to be with my guys so I said no, yea they meant that much to me and I was the old guy then too.

I was offered a chance to be a attack chopper jock but my mother had been a nurse in WWII and had to help deal with a bomber that didn't land to well and there was a lot of fire and yes you know what those inside had to look like so that had to be a no to honor my mother.

My parents didn't like me going into the military as my dad had wanted to be a frighter pilot in WWII but was told he had to stay here and teach the farmers how to grow more food on less land.

My favorite thing was demo cord and clay moors just to much fun what you could do with those and some interesting mods to blasting caps. Couldn't do it now if I wanted to just forgot to much and no desire to learn again.

I am now looking to go backwards in time and thinking and learning how to live like folks did in the 40's just encase an EMP of good size hits us and really messes things up.

My goal one day is to go back to Ft. Lost In the woods and see if I can find anything I remember any of the sites. Who knows I might not even be allowed on post anymore. The army tracked me up to just a few years ago and just might still be tracking me for all I know. Not sure why I need to be tracked but seems some things I did were interesting to even the big Generals who have been tracking me all these years. ha ha