Martini-henry mark iv

[clarks359]

I just bought a Martini-Henry Mark IV in 577-450. I have wanted one for a long time and finally made it happen. I was looking around for the items to load for it, and had some questions. I found articles about forming the brass from 24ga brass shotgun hulls. Are they better than the formed brass made by Jamison? Can 577-450 brass be formed from 577 Express brass?
I was also wondering about which bullets to use. I know that I need to slug the bore to get the diameter. I don't know yet if I'm going to paper patch or try to cast to bore diameter. What hardness of boolit would be best to use? I have lots of wheel weights, but I'm afraid they may be to hard.
I appreciate any and all help and suggestions. Thanks

[Ed in North Texas]

The Mark IV came in three versions, usually called A, B and C. B and C are easily distinguished from A by the front sight. B & C have a ramp type front sight, A does not. The difference between B & C is the barrel. B versions were initially made as Martini-Enfield .40 caliber rifles. When the Brits decided that adding .40 caliber ammunition to the supply system just a few years before changing to the .303 would hopelessly complicate the system (leaving 3 different rifle ammunitions, .577-450 M-H, the new .40 caliber M-E and soon to be .303). So the decision was made to convert the already made Martini-Enfield .40 caliber rifles to .577-450 Martini-Henry. The B barrels are re-bored/re-chambered to .577-450 and the bores are larger than the purpose made C barrels. Taking down the rifle can show which barrel you have - the B barrels had to be re-inspected and re-proofed, resulting in two sets of markings on the barrels (and you can't miss the long list of marks next to each other).

Generally, .462 boolits work well for any Mark IV, with .457 being a bit on the small side for the B barrels. The "leade" on the Henry type barrels is very generous, and long (about 8" IIRC), which has resulted in some people reporting good results with boolits as large as .476 even on earlier Mark II rifles. Wheel weight boolits have been successfully used in the M-H. Don't need to water quench them though.

Brass can be formed from the .24 gauge brass shotshells. Forming is fairly easy, with a couple of annealings and going slow being the path to easy forming. There is a You-Tube video on the process - I think it is also located on the IMA webpage for the Mark IVs. There is also a thread on Cast Boolits (can't recollect whether Black Powder or Single Shots) which has extensive posts on his experience forming from the CBC shotshells - I think Adrians (??) was the poster. The CBC brass shotshells are lighter (thinner case walls) than the Jamison brass, so it seems reasonable to believe the Jamison will probably last longer. But the CBC shotshells are significantly cheaper than either Jamison or particularly Bertram (and they are no longer Berdan primer pocket brass, one less hassle to their use). If you are considering Jamison, know that Jamison closed the company doors a short while ago, what is out there is all there is unless the company re-opens at a future date.

I believe one of the members has successfully used a .577 based Express type case for forming, but he's in Australia and Brit large bore cases are much easier to find than in the US.

I guess you are aware of IMA and Atlanta Cutlery as parts sources. There are other sources too, including one person making screws and pins which are exact copies. Have you taken your rifle down yet?

The British Militaria website's Martini-Henry forum has many very knowledgeable and helpful members. An essential resource for the M-H owner.

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/

Hope that helps.

Ed

[clarks359]

Ed, thanks for the reply. I think my rifle is an A series, front sight on a small square block, repair to stock for change to long lever. My barrel has 2 sets of proof marks, so has it been rebored? The top flat of the barrel is stamped PAK with the #18 under that, maybe Pakistani issue? I will try to post pic later to help with positive ID. I knew IMA and Atlanta Cutlery as suppliers of rifles, but didn't think of parts.I have cast boolits for my 45-70, they measure .458 at the first band. I put one nose first into the muzzle, it went in up to that first band, hopefully I can use them for this Martini. Once again thanks for any and all help.

[Ed in North Texas]

Ed, thanks for the reply. I think my rifle is an A series, front sight on a small square block, repair to stock for change to long lever. My barrel has 2 sets of proof marks, so has it been rebored? The top flat of the barrel is stamped PAK with the #18 under that, maybe Pakistani issue? I will try to post pic later to help with positive ID. I knew IMA and Atlanta Cutlery as suppliers of rifles, but didn't think of parts.I have cast boolits for my 45-70, they measure .458 at the first band. I put one nose first into the muzzle, it went in up to that first band, hopefully I can use them for this Martini. Once again thanks for any and all help.

Yes, that is an "A" barrel. .458 boolits can be used, and I would try them before doing anything else. Most Mark IV reloaders find that a .462 boolit is pretty much the minimum for accuracy in the Mark I through III rifles. A .458 will shoot, so it is worth trying first. Recommended for the Mark IVs is .470 to .472. If your .458 doesn't excite you accuracy wise, you should consider paper patching it to proper diameter. The problem is the groove diameters (or what we would call groove diameter as this is Henry rifling) are really deep by modern standards. Here's a web page with a diagram of the bore:

britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/reply/50140/S-O-G-457-Martini#reply-50140

[cuzinbruce]

[QUOTE=clarks359;1611288]I just bought a Martini-Henry Mark IV in 577-450. I have wanted one for a long time and finally made it happen. I was looking around for the items to load for it, and had some questions. I found articles about forming the brass from 24ga brass shotgun hulls. Are they better than the formed brass made by Jamison? Can 577-450 brass be formed from 577 Express brass?


I believe Jamison went out of business. I have been looking for a couple of their items. Check around on the web if you are interested. If you see anything of theirs that you can use, better grab it.

[clarks359]

Thanks ED, I thought it was an A series. I will try the .458 boolits and see how it goes. I have seen loads with both black powder and smokeless, is either one eaiser on the rifle and also on me? I don't know anything about paper patching. So the patch increases the diameter of the bullet to match the barrel? Can you paper patch a smokeless load? There is so much to learn, but that is part of the fun. Thanks for the help.

[clarks359]

Cuzinbruce, I just ordered some Jamison brass and a die set from Buffalo Arms. Their website showed both items in stock. Hopefully there won't be any kind of delay or backorder problem.

[303Guy]

clarks359, paper patching is definitely a good option. It does indeed enlarge the boolit to fit the bore - groove actually. The patched boolit can be larger than groove to fit the throat which also reduces or eliminate neck sizing and being a single shot, only a light finger press fit is required. And yes, smokeless patching is a way to go. Have a look at the Smokeless Paper Patching forum. You can choose a powder that fills the case but that might be tricky with the pressure requirements, meaning a powder that will still burn properly at the lower pressure required. A filler can be used to reduce the volume of a faster powder so there are actually many options. Maybe even Trail Boss would work - I don't know. I do know there is a rifle powder which does not work, that being MR200. It makes a fizz-bang effect.

I passed up an opportunity to bid on a 303 Martini, being flat broke at the moment. Pity - I've always wanted one. I don't need one but that's beside the point.

Oh, you'll find the folks over on the Smokeless Paper Patching forum just as helpful, friendly and as knowledgeable as everywhere else on this site. We don't have a 577/450 paper patcher over there - it would be great to have you on board!:drinks:

Not saying you should try BP paper patching too.8-) Do both. :mrgreen: Paper patching is fun.

[Ed in North Texas]

303guy: There's an interesting idea - finding a smokeless which fills the .577-450 case. Don't mention smokeless and old English firearms around most of the British Militaria folks, though.

[smilie=1:

You didn't "need" a .303 Martini-Enfield? What does "need" have to do with anything? Seriously I've been fighting off urges with "I don't need that", but it really is SWMBO who sometimes causes me to not buy another toy.

Ed

[Boz330]

The advantage of BP is that you will get bump up to fill the grooves for undersize boolits.

The 577-450 case will hold anywhere between 105 and 115g of BP depending on whether you use the Magtech formed brass or the Jamison or Bertram cases. That is a lot of case for smokeless and if you use a filler make it Kapok or Dacron. Do not use a solid filler since that will act like an obstruction in a bottleneck case.

Bob

[Ed in North Texas]

The advantage of BP is that you will get bump up to fill the grooves for undersize boolits.

The 577-450 case will hold anywhere between 105 and 115g of BP depending on whether you use the Magtech formed brass or the Jamison or Bertram cases. That is a lot of case for smokeless and if you use a filler make it Kapok or Dacron. Do not use a solid filler since that will act like an obstruction in a bottleneck case.

Bob

All correct. The standard load in BP was 85 grains of BP under the 480 grain paper patched boolit, 75 and a 400 grain boolit for the carbine load (IIRC). I don't think I'd want to try a 115 grain load under a 480 to 500 grain boolit, YMMV. Cotton balls (taken apart to fibers) are also a good filler. Some folks use a cardboard (solid, not corrugated) "liner" to reduce case capacity. And the old Brit filler is carded wool. COW can be used, but it is recommended as an "active" filler (i.e. mixed with a small amount of the BP load to prevent it clogging the neck). Simpler to use another filler.

Here's a link to the reloading forum of the British Militaria website. Loads, both BP and smokeless are listed for the .577-450 and other cartridges:

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/2615/Pet-loads-for-British-Militaria-Cartridges#.T1DRBnmElh0

[Boz330]

COW can be used, but it is recommended as an "active" filler (i.e. mixed with a small amount of the BP load to prevent it clogging the neck). Simpler to use another filler.

Here's a link to the reloading forum of the British Militaria website. Loads, both BP and smokeless are listed for the .577-450 and other cartridges:

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/2615/Pet-loads-for-British-Militaria-Cartridges#.T1DRBnmElh0

50-50 COW and 3F BP. The COW is consumed by the BP burning. I have had very good luck with this combo. My load is 65gr of 1 F and about 55 to 58gr of the active filler on top of that depending on whether using Magtec or Bertram cases. Then a card wad grease wad and another card on top of that. I have tried Kapok with little success for a filler.

This target was shot with that load at 100yd.

Bob

[clarks359]

Thanks for the replys.
303 Guy, I would love to find a load that would use Trail Boss, .458 bullets hand inserted into the case, that would work very well with the components I already have.
Ed, thanks for the link to the British forum, I bet they have alot of good info there. I'm going to sign up on that forum.
Bob, That is a great grouping! When you use the COW do you mix it in with the BP, or add it on top of the BP?

[Boz330]

COW is mixed half and half with 3F BP, do not just use COW it will act as an obstruction, with potentially catastrophic results.

Bob

[Ed in North Texas]

Thanks for the replys.
303 Guy, I would love to find a load that would use Trail Boss, .458 bullets hand inserted into the case, that would work very well with the components I already have.
Ed, thanks for the link to the British forum, I bet they have alot of good info there. I'm going to sign up on that forum.
Bob, That is a great grouping! When you use the COW do you mix it in with the BP, or add it on top of the BP?

Pardon me Bob, but I'm just reading again and thought I'd answer for you. The load Bob referenced was 65 grains of 1F loaded first. Then 55 to 58 grains by weight of a 50-50 mix of COW and 3F Black Powder (yielding a total BP load of about 93 grains and about 28 grains of COW), topped with the wads, grease cookie, etc.

Ed

[enfield]

Boz330 do you put anything between the BP & the 50/50 mix ? I have been putting a pinch of cotton between but maybe I dont have to ?? . I have tried Trail Boss and lived to tell the tail :veryconfu ! IMR lists 12 - 13 gr for a 45-70 with a 405 gr boolit so I tried 12 grains in a magtec case with a paper patched Lee 405 grain HB . I was able to put 3 in a little clover leaf at 50 yards and we were plinking at things from 25 to 50 yards offhand and there was no hangfires or signs of position sensativity . I must try that again. :bigsmyl2:

[clarks359]

Once again thanks to everyone for their help.
Bob, Ed, So the load is 65gr 1F loaded first, then the 55-58gr of 3F-COW 50/50 mix? Then what kinds of filler-patches in which order? Thanks

[clarks359]

Enfield Man,
So you used 12gr Trail Boss, a 405gr boolit? What diameter did you patch the bullet to? Which Martini did you use to shoot that nice group?

[Ed in North Texas]

Once again thanks to everyone for their help.
Bob, Ed, So the load is 65gr 1F loaded first, then the 55-58gr of 3F-COW 50/50 mix? Then what kinds of filler-patches in which order? Thanks

Bob is using a Card wad, then a grease cookie or greased wool felt wad, then another card wad. My load would use a beeswax overpowder/filler wad, a grease cookie and a veggie wad over the grease cookie. You have to have a wad which will prevent migration of grease to the powder/filler and also to prevent the grease cookie/wad sticking to the boolit. Some use wads made from paper milk cartons for the over powder wad, it is impervious to grease. There are plastic wads out there too, but I haven't used them so can't comment on them, other than to say they obviously would be impervious to the grease too.

Have you bought a wad cutter and wad material yet? Or pre-cut wads? Here's a source of felt if you want to make your own greased felt wads instead of grease cookies (or buy them pre-made from any of the shooting suppliers who cater to the Black Powder clan):
http://www.durofelt.com./image_26.html

Ed

[curator]

I shoot both my Martini Henry MkII and Mk IV with CBC re-formed 24 gage brass. I intitially used black powder but got tired of being beaten to a pulp with 90+ grains of FFg and 475 grain bullet. I found the Lee .475-400RF boolit was a slip-fit in fired brass so I switched to 23 grains of SR4759, a wax wad and thumb seated Lee .475-400RF boolit cast from 2/3 pure lead, 1/3 Wheel weight metal, lubed with Lee liquid alox. I put a 5/8" tuft of dacron over the powder to keep it next to the primer. Velocities run around 1250-1300 fps but shoot great out to 100 yards. Great fun without bruises and I don't have to clean the brass. So far I have more than 18 reloads from individual cases because I am only repriming not sizing.

[enfield]

Clark359, my method of paper patching needs a lot of work, I was experimenting because the case neck on the magtech brass expands to about .469 " inside and the Lee dies squeeze em down way too much so I just wrapped 2 wraps of cashregister paper around the boolit and it made a nice snug fit. My martini was something I got from a guy that had been sporterized at sometime, no markings on it , it has a cresent but plate :holysheep , shortened barrel and forestock ( it actually looks quite nice ). the previous "gun smith" I got it from tried to remove the barrell by pinching it in a vice, he actually squeezed a section ahead of the muzzle kind of oval :groner: I bored out the bad spot just enough so it wouldn't distort the boolit, ( sounds crude doesn't it )[smilie=l:

[enfield]

sorry I didn't mean muzzle I ment ahead of the chamber.

[enfield]

Curator, when you said 5/8" of dacron, how much of a cotton ball would that be ( is that loose and fluffy or rolled up in a tight ball ). I tried some dacron and 5744 once but it would just fizzle and fart and hangfire. I think the powder was dispersing in the strands of dacron ??

[Ed in North Texas]

I shoot both my Martini Henry MkII and Mk IV with CBC re-formed 24 gage brass. I intitially used black powder but got tired of being beaten to a pulp with 90+ grains of FFg and 475 grain bullet. I found the Lee .475-400RF boolit was a slip-fit in fired brass so I switched to 23 grains of SR4759, a wax wad and thumb seated Lee .475-400RF boolit cast from 2/3 pure lead, 1/3 Wheel weight metal, lubed with Lee liquid alox. I put a 5/8" tuft of dacron over the powder to keep it next to the primer. Velocities run around 1250-1300 fps but shoot great out to 100 yards. Great fun without bruises and I don't have to clean the brass. So far I have more than 18 reloads from individual cases because I am only repriming not sizing.

Thanks. I have that boolit, but hadn't gotten a round tuit yet. The BP loads are thumpers. I have a shooting coat I used to use for Service Rifle match - until a hip replacement slowed me down too much in getting into position. It is used for the M-H - and even the .50-70 when I'm shooting on the concrete bench at the range (really hard on the elbows!).

Ed

[303Guy]

Just a point on cotton filler, I have succeeded in setting it alight with smokeless. It smoulders and can cause grass fires. Most of the time it doesn't even scorch. I have heard of others finding smouldering balls of cotton in front of the firing line.

[Boz330]

Once again thanks to everyone for their help.
Bob, Ed, So the load is 65gr 1F loaded first, then the 55-58gr of 3F-COW 50/50 mix? Then what kinds of filler-patches in which order? Thanks

Sorry about not getting back in a timely fashion but it has been pretty hectic in this part of the world (tornadoes) and my only puter is at work.

There is nothing between the BP load and the active filler since you need the ignition of the BP mixed in the COW. All wads are in the neck of the case and you should be sure that they don't get below that level.

My Martini is a MKII so is slightly different from the MKIV but the basics should be the same. I have not tried smokeless in my rifle, nor do I intend to. The absolutely best loads that I found were using Canon grade BP and filling the case, BUT, the accuracy only held for 5 or 6 rounds and clean up was pure HE!!.

The grove on the MKII is .464 with the tapered section starting at .468 and tapering down. My boolit is .462 and a mold that was made for a Trapdoor, it should not even come close to working, but it does. With smokeless I doubt that would be the case. I personally am reluctant to use smokeless in my Martini, but then I enjoy BP. BTW the combination load is quite pleasant to shoot.

Bob

[curator]

Enfield,

The Dacron I use is "batting" found in fabric stores. It is a 30 inch wide sheet about 5/8- 3/4" thick. I cut strips of this with sissors then cut the strips into little squares. A 5/8" square (cube) weighs about 1 grain. I push it down on top of the powder charge with a pencil and it expands to hold the powder against the primer end of the case. I don't attempt to roll or compress it. Once loaded I have found it necessary to keep the cartridges bullet up particularly if they will be exposed to vibrations or a bumpy ride. The dacron pretty much disintigrates upon firing and also gives better (less) extreme spread on velocity.

[clarks359]

Once again a big thanks to everyone for their help. In a BP load the grease cookie-greased felt wad serves to keep the fouling soft? Is this needed in a smokeless load? Would straight wheel weights be to hard to shoot without patching? Considering what the brass costs, anything to extend it's life gets my attention. I'm waiting on my brass and dies to arrive, when they do I guess I'll have to just experiment with what I have onhand. Right now I have some 3F BP, IMR3031, and Trail Boss for powder. I have some .458 dia 405gr cast boolits that I use in my 45-70. Once again thanks.

[Ed in North Texas]

Once again a big thanks to everyone for their help. In a BP load the grease cookie-greased felt wad serves to keep the fouling soft? Is this needed in a smokeless load? Would straight wheel weights be to hard to shoot without patching? Considering what the brass costs, anything to extend it's life gets my attention. I'm waiting on my brass and dies to arrive, when they do I guess I'll have to just experiment with what I have onhand. Right now I have some 3F BP, IMR3031, and Trail Boss for powder. I have some .458 dia 405gr cast boolits that I use in my 45-70. Once again thanks.

Yes, the purpose of the grease cookie/wad is to help keep the fouling soft with BP, it is not needed with a regular cast boolit and smokeless, nor with a patched boolit and smokeless. You might need to lube the patch, but check with the folks on the PP & Smokeless forum for advice on that.

Straight WW would work as standard grease groove cast boolits, if properly sized to the rifle. Remember that smokeless generally doesn't "bump up" an undersized boolit to groove size. If you decide to chase BP, you might want to go with a larger granulation in the large M-H case 1.5 or even 1F.

Ed

[clarks359]

Ed, I have been over on the PP & Smokless forum reading the posts but have not ask any questions yet. I still can deciede which way to go, BP or smokeless. In a BP load the card wad is made of "card stock" ie thin carboard no corrugation? Then you use a grease cookie-greased felt wad, then another card wad, then the PP bullet on top of that? I wonder if there are any BP loads that aren't full power, I have some small framed family members (wife and son) who like to shoot my old guns.

[Ed in North Texas]

Ed, I have been over on the PP & Smokless forum reading the posts but have not ask any questions yet. I still can deciede which way to go, BP or smokeless. In a BP load the card wad is made of "card stock" ie thin carboard no corrugation? Then you use a grease cookie-greased felt wad, then another card wad, then the PP bullet on top of that? I wonder if there are any BP loads that aren't full power, I have some small framed family members (wife and son) who like to shoot my old guns.

The card wads can be of several materials, vegetable stock is very popular, milk carton, a poly plastic material (haven't used that, so can't comment on it), cork (ditto) and cardboard. Thickness varies with the veggie stock usually found in .030" and .060", cork at .125". etc. As I posted before, honeycomb foundation (before it is put in the frames for the hive) can also be used as a wad between powder and lube cookie/wad/. A "grease cookie" is usually a wad made of lube only. Obviously needs to be a fairly stiff lube to hold the shape. Or you can use the greased felt wad, depends on your preference and what works best for you. Pre-lubed felt wads can be bought from several sources to try out.

Yes, you can download BP. The Brits did so for the carbine load after complaints about the full rifle load in carbines. Going from memory (which can be faulty, more the older I get), the carbine load was a 400 grain boolit over 70 grains of BP. The combination of lighter boolit and lesser powder charge was easier on the troops with the lighter carbines, and the ammo could still be used in the rifles. Another thing to help with reducing felt recoil is to avoid shooting from the bench if possible. The Brits have stand-up shooting benches for their heavy recoiling rifles. That way they can still use a rest while allowing the body to move with the recoil in the same way it would if hunting. Obviously you can use the located on the body recoil pads to help with recoil, and they do help.

Downloading will require more filler to eliminate air space. A factor to consider with BP is that some of the weight of the powder (IIRC about 50%) adds to the weight of the boolit discharged. So the BP does increase recoil some, but the recoil impulse is different from the sharp recoil of smokeless, more of a push than a smack (so to speak).

With downloading, I'd suggest moving from COW to the lighter fiber fillers, like dacron. This will eliminate adding the weight of the ejecta to the boolit weight. I have no experience with Puff-lon as a filler, but experienced members on the Brit Militaria boards recommend staying away from Puff-lon in bottleneck cases like the .577-450. The claim is it can block up at the neck, though it apparently is fine in straight cases. As I said, I don't have a personal basis for that, just passing on what I've been told.

Ed

[clarks359]

Ed, once again thanks for the help. So the carbine load is 70grs of 2f BP, some kind of fiber filler, the card wad,greased felt patch,card wad then a paper patched .458 cast boolit? Wads cut from a milk carton will work the the card wad? How about dacron batting like Curator mentions for the filler? I may try this load first and see how bad the recoil is, then see if anyone else feels comfortable trying it. Thanks

[Ed in North Texas]

Ed, once again thanks for the help. So the carbine load is 70grs of 2f BP, some kind of fiber filler, the card wad,greased felt patch,card wad then a paper patched .458 cast boolit? Wads cut from a milk carton will work the the card wad? How about dacron batting like Curator mentions for the filler? I may try this load first and see how bad the recoil is, then see if anyone else feels comfortable trying it. Thanks

YOu can even use a couple of pieces of waxed paper under the boolit. Dacron batting, or an old pillow's dacron (your wife would like a new pillow, wouldn't she?), works fine. If 2F doesn't fill the case enough, you could move to 1.5 or even 1F for better fill.

Ed

[clarks359]

Ed, once again thanks for the help. I guess I need a punch for the wads. What size should I get and who has them? I used the link you posted for the felt, thanks by the way, but not sure what thickness or hardness to use. So you use a coarser BP to fill the case more, not specifically for the burn rate? I live in Southern Ohio, was wondering if anyone was close to here? Once again thanks.

[Boz330]

Ed, once again thanks for the help. I guess I need a punch for the wads. What size should I get and who has them? I used the link you posted for the felt, thanks by the way, but not sure what thickness or hardness to use. So you use a coarser BP to fill the case more, not specifically for the burn rate? I live in Southern Ohio, was wondering if anyone was close to here? Once again thanks.

Me. Be at Miami Rifle and Pistol Sunday for a match.

Buffalo Arms has the punch you are looking for. Be sure to get the right one since they offer a .452 for 45 LC and a .462 for the rifle cartridges.

Bob

[clarks359]

Bob,
I wish I had thought about the punch before I ordered my brass and dies, I could have saved on the shipping. Where is the Miami Rifle and Pistol club located? What time is the match, maybe I can be a spectator. I appreciate all the great info.

[Boz330]

Bob,
I wish I had thought about the punch before I ordered my brass and dies, I could have saved on the shipping. Where is the Miami Rifle and Pistol club located? What time is the match, maybe I can be a spectator. I appreciate all the great info.

They have a website with directions, but it is east of I-275 off of US 50 out past Perrintown. Set up and match starts at noon. The gate is open on Sundays and the match is a Silhouette match at 300 and 600 yds which is right next to the road going in.

Bob

[clarks359]

Bob, Thanks for the info on the match. I live about 120 miles from there, but I would still like to go check it out. I'm not sure how my weekend looks yet, need to make sure on any plans I don't know about. Maybe later this week I will know one way or the other. I went to Miami's website and checked out their matches, it sounds like a person could have a really good time. I will try to let you know if I can make it. Thanks

[Boz330]

Clark, if you can let me know sometime tomorrow I'll bring you some Kapok and I've got a Lee mold for the .475 pistol boolit that you could borrow. IIRC the weight is around 400gr.
My only computer is at work so later than tomorrow won't get to me.

Bob

[clarks359]

Bob,
I understand about the only computer deal, it's the same with me. I'm not sure about Sunday yet, but if I find out I will definitly get back to you before tomorow evening. I would love to come watch, I've never been to a BPCR match before. By the way my name is Larry, I keep forgetting to use it in my posts. Once again I will try to get back to you, just can't say right now. Larry

[Boz330]

We don't shoot a knock down match since this range was never laid out for it. We shoot pigs on chains at 300yd and rams on chains at 600yd, it is still challenging though.

Bob

[clarks359]

Bob,
I would say it's challenging, I don't know it I could even see the ram at 600yds without a scope. Larry

[Boz330]

I can't anymore which is why I shoot a Malcolm style scope. Missing animals is only fun for a short period of time.

Bob

[Ed in North Texas]

Ed, once again thanks for the help. I guess I need a punch for the wads. What size should I get and who has them? I used the link you posted for the felt, thanks by the way, but not sure what thickness or hardness to use. So you use a coarser BP to fill the case more, not specifically for the burn rate? I live in Southern Ohio, was wondering if anyone was close to here? Once again thanks.

Larry,

Glad to see Bob might be at the range close enough to you both to help. That is a big help.

The most often used felt thickness is 1/8". Hardness most often used is F1 - Hard. Color, obviously, is immaterial - choose the cheapest currently available.

In a large case, like these, the burn rate difference between 1F and 2F exists, but isn't that great.

Ed

[clarks359]

Bob, I really want to thank you for the invitation but I'm not going able to make it Sunday. One on my vehicles had to go in the shop today. I'm sorry for any trouble but maybe I can make it to the next one. Larry
Ed, thanks for the info on the felt wads, I got my brass yesterday so maybe I can load some rounds for this weekend. Larry

[clarks359]

I didn't get a chance to load any rounds this weekend. Hopefully I can load some later this week and get to the range Saturday. I think I finally figured out how to post some pics, I hope this works Thanks

[Ed in North Texas]

Good looking rifle, Larry. It doesn't appear to have been part of the Nepal cache, or at least the buttstock doesn't have the usual Nepali markings. Any Native Service (NS) markings in the metal? Do you know where the rifle has been?

Ed

[Boz330]

Larry, if you would like to borrow that .476 mold to try, just cover the postage and I'll throw in enough Kapok to last a lifetime.

Bob

[clarks359]

Ed,
Here are more pictures including some proof marks. The only mark I didn't take a picture of is on the top flat of the barrel. It is stamped PAK with the #18 underneath that, not sure what that means. Thanks for all the help. Larry

[clarks359]

Bob,
Thanks for the offer. Thats very nice of you. Just send me a PM and we can work out the details.Larry

[Ed in North Texas]

Pakistan use. The buttstock marking probably reads DIKPOL, which some believe indicates issue to the Pakistani District Police.

[The Double D]

MK IV variations. There are more identifiers than just the front sight. Get a copy of Skennertons and Temples treatise to ID the variations. The A, B and C classes are collector reference and not official designations.

I could go into a great long dissertation on the description the Henry rifled bore. I'll stick to the basics.

Get .468 bullets for MK II, MK III series. The MKIV rifles need .470 bullets.


Smaller bullets must rely on obturation to seal the bore. A small bit of obturation is fine but .010 to .012 in a bullet that is unsupported in the bore results in non uniform or lopsided obturation. Obturation occurs with both black and smokeless powder.

Hard bullets of proper throat diameter shoot the best in the Henry barrel.

Smaller .458 bullets of hard alloy will suffer blow by and softer alloy suffer distortion when they obturate.

I have yet to find a smokeless powder to fill a Martini case and be shootable. I shoot smokeless in the Martini and I am regular on British Militaria. My most accurate loads in the 577/450 are smokeless load.

For me shooting smokeless in the big Martini is akin to kissing your sister or taking a shower wearing a rain coat. You get the experience but with out the fun.

Learn Nitro for black loading technique if you want to shoot smokeless in the Martini.

The Martini Case will hold 105 to 130 grains of Fg if you apply the American standard more useful for straight wall cases and fill the case to the top of the neck. The British standard is to fill tothe top of the powder chamber at the start of the shoulder. The neck and shoulder does not hold powder in the big bottleneck cases.

The 50/50 BP-CoW loads do seem to work on the range. Across the chronograph they show a large extreme spread in velocity and a large standard deviation. I have also found separation-sifting of the components after tearing down rounds ofter long road trips. I get better results with out adding the CoW. Despite what some say, the CoW is not combusted. Lay a large sheet of paper out in front of your rifle and you can collect the unfired grains.

The Correct grade of BP to use with the Martini is Fg not FFg; less pressure and less felt recoil.

There are some presure issues with Trail Boss. For these large cases it is recommended to stay with a load density of 70% with Trail Boss.

[Boz330]

Douglas has done a LOT of experimenting so listen to him and peruse the British Militaria site.

Bob

[Ed in North Texas]

Douglas has done a LOT of experimenting so listen to him and peruse the British Militaria site.

Bob

I'll second that!

[clarks359]

Douglas, Thanks for all the help and info. I have a post over on the British Militaria website concerning the markings on this rifle. I just added some extra pictures this morning. Thanks for the warning about COW, I was never really sure about using it in a load. I'm glad to here that 1F is the best to use in a Martini, thats what I bought this weekend. I still need to get some wads and figure out about the grease cookie. Once again thanks for all the help.
Larry

[loiner1965]

I shoot both my Martini Henry MkII and Mk IV with CBC re-formed 24 gage brass. I intitially used black powder but got tired of being beaten to a pulp with 90+ grains of FFg and 475 grain bullet. I found the Lee .475-400RF boolit was a slip-fit in fired brass so I switched to 23 grains of SR4759, a wax wad and thumb seated Lee .475-400RF boolit cast from 2/3 pure lead, 1/3 Wheel weight metal, lubed with Lee liquid alox. I put a 5/8" tuft of dacron over the powder to keep it next to the primer. Velocities run around 1250-1300 fps but shoot great out to 100 yards. Great fun without bruises and I don't have to clean the brass. So far I have more than 18 reloads from individual cases because I am only repriming not sizing.

i shoot the mk 1v and a gahendra with betram and cbc cases with no probs.
remember to use large pistol primers with the cbc cases or you get light partial strikes...i use 15 gn trailboss with 480gn rcbs bullets and group around 3 inches at 110 yards......have to aim 12 inches to the right of target though lol

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I've been shooting my MH for many years with 78gn FFG and the case topped off with "Polenta" (corn meal) which has a grain size about the same as the FFG.

One thing I have discovered is that lubing the boolit with pure "Lanotek" grease will control the black powder fouling such that I can fire up to 40 rounds without cleaning.

Get the load right and they will shoot as well as any BPCR!:holysheep

50m x 10shots
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/577_450_50m.jpg

200yds
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/Picture044.jpg