Choice For Grizzlies

[Jammer Six]

Post your first choice for defense against The Grizz!

[stubshaft]

You didn't list 12ga slugs. So I chose the next best thing which was a high power rifle.

[heavyd]

I chose a light infantry squad. A few dozen 5.56 holes should do the trick.

[Mooseman]

There is only one true choice...Large High powered rifle.

The rest is just SILLY !!!
41496
Up close and personal...

41497

[nanuk]

for Polar Bears in close encounters

a 12ga with slugs is the choice of CO's.

I expect Grizz to be no more bulletproof than a PB.

I think a 12ga with full diameter hard round ball would be ideal. already expanded, and would penetrate like your life depended on it.

I think I'd go with the 12ga also.... and less concern with what is behind them.

[btroj]

The most important thing for self defense in all situations is between your ears.

[Grandpas50AE]

The year my brothers and I went hunting in Alaska (three years before I moved there) all the guides' choice when guiding clients was .375 H&H Mag, with a strong second choice of .416 Rigby or .416 Remington. I did not feel over-gunned with a .458 Win. Mag.

[Moondawg]

I have heard that you cannot harm a griz. The Federal Guvmint in all its great wisdom has them on the protected list. So. I guess it is pepper spray. It is better to let the griz munch on you, rather than face the wrath of the feds if you shoot one, expecially a momma griz.
Never forget: I am from the Federal Government, and I am here to help you.

[firefly1957]

You should have been more specific are we hunting Grizzlies of defending ourselves for them? I selected A lager high power Rifle as it is good for both options...Now were did I put that double gun in .600 Nitro express!

[MT Gianni]

I voted HP rifle as a 12 gauge auto w/slugs was not there. For a non-charging bear common sense should be an option also.

[Breadman03]

I voted light infantry squad. If I'm getting charged, I wouldn't mind some help from a few other trigger pullers.

[wiljen]

I was disappointed that field artillery was not on the list. I was thinking something like an old German 88mm would be the ticket.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

My choice is a pair of running shoes and a pardner I can outrun.
Pepper spray I think is the best for up close encounters IF
you have the mental marbles to use it properly

[MBTcustom]

I dont give a darn what some politician 5 years and 2000 miles away said I could or could not do to a charging bear. If I were hunting, I would want a BAR or other semi-auto rifle in 300winmag loaded with 200 grain solids.
Just off the cuff though, If I were just passing through, I would want a 500S&W on me for just general carry in a heavy bear area.

[lbaize3]

Why isn't a double barrel recoiless rifle listed?

[BulletFactory]

I was thinking S&W 500, or a DE .50

[Larry Gibson]

Me at home, grizz in Alaska or where ever except "home" is my first choice.

My choice is a pair of running shoes and a pardner (or guide) I can outrun. My second choice.

Larry Gibson

[6.5 mike]

12 ga pump, heavy slugs & common sense.

[1Shirt]

Unless you have faced a griz or a kodiak, it is mostly conjecture. Shot mine with 375 H&H w/300 gr. Hor, at about 25 yds, face on, it rolled her backwards, and she got up,still went 200 yds before she bled out. My partner took his at about 65 yds. with a 200 gr. speer in an O6, and dropped it in its tracks. Don't think there is to much gun for the big bears. My blt went full length thru the bear, and I dug the blt out at the base of the tail. My shot took lungs and went thru about 5-6' foot of bear. My partners shot was a high spine shot.

They are magnificant animals and deserve clean kills.

If I had the chance to go back for another in Alaska, think it would be with a max loaded 45-70 with at least a 400 gr. blt, or 375 H&H with 300gr Barnes or Swift. A 12 gage with slugs might be a good choice, however, I have seen deer hit with slugs solidly still go a couple of hundred yards. Hit poorly, I have also seen multi hits on deer with slugs get away. Shot placement with something heavy enough to anchor a griz is always going to be the key to sucess.
1Shirt!

[Bushrat]

The only one I killed was with a 44mag pistol, but would rather have a big rifle. Shotgun slugs seem like a good idea but often lack penatration, they work OK for deer but big bears are another thing, it is nice to have a big pistol to fight your way to a rifle if needed.

[MT Gianni]

A friend and I visited with his sisters FIL one afternoon. Howard Copenhaver who guided in Montana's Bob Marshall for many decades had a grizzley bear skin over the back of the couch where I sat. It came after him and he had to shoot it, he used the same 25-35 he always carried as he was a skinny person and didn't like recoil. They are not magical, just deserving of respect.

[TNFrank]

You didn't list 12ga slugs. So I chose the next best thing which was a high power rifle.

Double Ditto.

[Harter66]

My ol'man always recomended a 12ga ,bird shot to take out the eyes and nose,OOB to break up the chest,and a slug to get into the vitals.

I'm w/the 12ga crowd too,packing in for the scenery anyway. Otherwise I'd have a 280 Rem/06'/35 Whelen and a hot loaded 45 Colts.

I might use the buddy system if my hunting companion was irritating me,I can out run him. I also expect to have the advantage of running on dry ground as I expect I would soil myself faced w/the reality that the next higher rung on the food chain was about to reduce me to carrion.

[sledgehammer001]

Moondawg, I understand, BUT, rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6! And I vote for 3" Naval Gun! But then again, how fast can a bear run thru a 6 foot pile of manure???? ;)

[Jammer Six]

BUT, rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6!
The only people who believe that are people who aren't familiar with life in a super-max.

The day my appeals run out is the day I suicide.

[Huntducks]

I expected to see golf club on the list.

[white eagle]

a fazor
followed by a 12 ga.w/slugs

[hydraulic]

If you shoot a grizzly bear, and he ever finds out about it, it going to make him madder than hell!

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
LOVED the last 2 posts above.
ibaize3- post 15..... I did not know they made double barrel reconciles rifles......... now I just gotta have one.

Btroj- post6, I agree.

1shirt-post 19, shot placement rules.

Bushrat-post20, I agree.

I chose high power rifle, it would be the biggest bore I own, a repeater, & I would have my 44 mag on my hip for back up.:Fire::Fire:

[Jammer Six]

So far, at the top of the list is pepper spray!

[waksupi]

I can think of two fairly recent instances where people were mauled here locally that had bear spray. In their back packs. That is where it usually is.

[Jammer Six]

I can think of two fairly recent instances where people were mauled here locally that had bear spray. In their back packs. That is where it usually is.
I'm quite sure that a large pistol in their packs would have been so much better.

[AR-15 Cowboy]

Back in the seventies I was deer hunting with a friend and we were following a blood trail of a deer I shot. When we came up on the deer a grizzley was there checking out our kill. We both had .30 06's and I had a 9mm pistol and my friend had a .357 magnum. I had my nine in my hand and my rifle slung over my shoulder. We thought the movement was from the deer still flopping around. The bear through himself up to full standing height and I opened fire with the 9mm. My friend drew his .357 and also emptied it into the bear as fast as he could pull the trigger. Then we both started running while trying to chamber rounds into our rifles. We stopped when we realized the bear was not following us. It turned out the bear was hit 12 times between the two of us. One .357 went through his jaw and out the top of his head. Bear was out of season so we had to report it to the game warden. When he saw all the boolit holes he believed our story. But we still couldn't keep the bear, we had to carry it out of the woods and take it to a packing house where they gave the meat to charity.

[Southern Son]

I went with the infantry one for 2 reasons, first, with all the **** that "Light Infantry" have to carry, I know I could out run them, and second, cause you did not have the most sensible option. Live in Australia, the only bears we have a Drop Bears. If you stay out from under the trees, there are no worries!!!

[sharpshooter81]

45/70 all the way 565 gr piledrivers

[firefly1957]

A gulf club would not be a bad option a lot of fat guys in them that would be more appetizing to a griz than I would!

BulletFactory every time I scroll down to your post I want to swat my screen! is that a brown recluse for your avatar?

[nanuk]

Pepper spray I think is the best for up close encounters


I hear Grizz like their meat well seasoned

[timbuck]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/grizzly-bear-charges-alaskan-tourists-video-010559736.html

I hope they had a gun bearer.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I recently had the good fortune of seeing a cop hit a guy with some pepper spray. Bad for him!

It wasn't the Bear Spray version either it was just the plain issue stuff.

He was on the ground crying for mommie in 2 seconds! the Bear Spray formulas are 10-50 times stronger.

I voted for Bear Spray because it is doubtful I will ever get into this circumstance, however if I was hunting I probably wouldn't have the Bear Spray so my rifle would have to do.

I know I would be praying for Divine Guidance for my boolits in any event.

With the BS I would also be praying for a favorable wind as if you got blowback and hit yourself with the BS, the Bear would just eat you thinking you were Spicy Buffalo wings.

Randy

[bowfin]

I would take a smaller gun and a dog over a larger gun and no dog. The best grizzly fights are the ones that never happen, and a good dog in the woods is an awful effective early warning system.

[waksupi]

I would take a smaller gun and a dog over a larger gun and no dog. The best grizzly fights are the ones that never happen, and a good dog in the woods is an awful effective early warning system.

I have said it before, A DOG WILL BRING A BEAR RIGHT TO YOU AT HIGH SPEED! The bear will chase the dog, and guess who the dog comes to?

[JeffinNZ]

This reminds me of the two lion hunters preparing for the day. One guy is putting on a pair of running shoes and his mate says "There's no point wearing them, you'll never outrun the lion." The reply came "I don't have to outrun the lion, I just have to outrun YOU."

[Bret4207]

I would just use my Walker Texas Ranger/Crocodile Dundee like skills to hypnotize the bear and make him sleepy. It's very easy to do after he's had a full meal.......

[captain awesome]

The most important thing for self defense in all situations is between your ears.

Hair?
:kidding:

[Jammer Six]

I would just use my Walker Texas Ranger/Crocodile Dundee like skills to hypnotize the bear and make him sleepy. It's very easy to do after he's had a full meal.......

Not sure that's a good example-- the real life Crocodile Dundee lost the last gunfight he was in...

Just sayin'...

[Sonnypie]

He wasn't in "a fight".
He was playing with a sting ray.
You screw with the bull, you get the horn.
Or tease the ray, you get the sting.

For bear...
The 46" HDTV.
I'll watch from afar... :lol:;-)

I voted for a HP rifle.
I'm disappointed nobody voted for the small dog, nor the 9mm.... Oh well!

[ubetcha]

You forgot scream like a little girl. :kidding:

[jandbn]

If anybody is still thinking pepper spray, it may not be the answer. I heard stories when living in AK, but never talked to anybody who actually had a bear encounter of any kind.

Anyway, here is a quote from the Alaska Science Forum:

"Three of the sprayed brown bears ended up attacking and injuring the sprayer anyway" (http://www2.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF12/1245.html)

[429421Cowboy]

Reminds me of a ranch i worked at a few winters back on the Rocky Mountain Front. Plenty of grizzlys up there and they cause their share of trouble, but not as bad as a person might think. There always were a few around to eat the dead calves out of the "bone pile" as they call it. The guy we were working for told me that they had a bear switch from dead calves coming up to the shopyard to steal chickens and tear apart the coop to get eggs so he came up with a plan. He took a full can of bear spray, taped some old denim jean scraps to it, soaked the rags in honey and left it outside the henhouse. Next morning there was an empty can with teeth marks in it, never had trouble with bears again!

[Jammer Six]

He wasn't in "a fight".
He was playing with a sting ray.

He (the guy the character was based on) shot it out with cops out in the outback and lost.

He fought the law and the law killed him.

[shotstring]

There was a study that came out either this year or last year of all the bear attacks, both Grizzly and Black Bear. The ONLY defense that never failed in any one of the encounters, be it Grizzly or Black Bear, was pepper spray. When sprayed in the face, the bear has always stopped his attack and allowed the person to exit stage left.

On the other hand, those using firearms, both handgun and rifle, failed on several occasions. One of the main reasons sited for this is the difficulty in hitting a rather small target that is coming at you like a freight train especially at close range.

On the other hand, the bear spray spreads out like shotgun with a massive choke, making it next to impossible to miss the bear's head if the person doesn't lose his nerve and actually draws and fires the pepper spray.

I'm just sayin'....them's the facts. Personally, before seeing this, I would have leaned towards carrying both pepper spray AND a firearm, but then, if the pepper spray didn't work, it would be a little late for a firearm. Still, I would lean toward pepper spray first and if I became that first statistic that it didn't work for, and if I remained conscious with a bears jaws wrapped around part of my anatomy, hopefully I could still draw a pistol or revolver and still save the day.

By the same token, since pepper spray is more reliable than firearms, I would be giving myself the best chance to live by using spray rather than shooting. If the spray didn't work, although this has never happened, absolutely no one would then fault me for using a handgun provided I had tried the recommended pepper spray first.

[Jammer Six]

The other point is that if you're in a group of three, with a little luck, at least two cones of pepper are in the air.

The story above is the first one I've read in which multiple handguns came into play. I hope my buddy would do the same, but I'm dead certain that my wife and friends would bring pepper into play without hesitation. I'm not so certain they would all make the decision and open fire.

The decision cycle is much faster if the weapon you're going to deploy is pepper spray.

[Artful]

There was a study that came out either this year or last year of all the bear attacks, both Grizzly and Black Bear. The ONLY defense that never failed in any one of the encounters, be it Grizzly or Black Bear, was pepper spray. When sprayed in the face, the bear has always stopped his attack and allowed the person to exit stage left.

On the other hand, those using firearms, both handgun and rifle, failed on several occasions. One of the main reasons sited for this is the difficulty in hitting a rather small target that is coming at you like a freight train especially at close range.

perhaps you should read the link above
http://www2.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF12/1245.html




Stephen Herrero said Pepper Spray Works, yes, but don't bet your life on it. Herrero, a researcher with the University of Calgary, presented results of a pepper spray study in Fairbanks recently during the Tenth International Conference on Bear Research and Management. He and Andrew Higgins combed North America for 66 examples of what happened in the field when bears were hit with a snout full of pepper spray.

Their study included black bears and brown (grizzly) bears in a variety of pre-spray moods that ranged from curious to aggressive. All of the bears had been sprayed with the type of pepper sprays found at sporting goods stores---a tubular canister containing propellant and 10 percent capsiacin, a toxic chemical extracted from red peppers that acts as a powerful irritant to respiratory systems and eyes. Because pepper spray can be aimed and shot several body lengths away, it gives people a skunk-like ability to ward off aggressors such as other people and snarling dogs. But the spray's effectiveness on bears in the wild hadn't been evaluated until the recent study.

In the 16 cases Herrero and Higgins looked at in which pepper spray was used against brown bears in sudden encounters, 15 brown bears turned away after receiving a direct blast to the eyes and nose. Three of the sprayed brown bears ended up attacking and injuring the sprayer anyway, but Herrero said it didn't appear a face full of pepper made the bears any more aggressive than they normally would have been.

Of 20 brown bears sprayed while searching for human food, garbage, or just appearing overly curious, Herrero and Higgins found all 20 stopped what they were doing, and 18 left (only two of those 18 came back later).

Blasted black bears didn't seem as affected by the spray, especially those with a taste for garbage. Nineteen of 26 black bears sprayed while acting curious or searching for human food and garbage stopped what they were doing, and 14 of 26 bears left the area. But six of those 14 came back.

"The spray appears ineffective as a means of deterring black bears that are strongly conditioned to human foods and garbage," Herrero said.

Pepper spray also didn't send black bears running in the four cases where people sprayed them after aggressive sudden encounters. Although it stopped the black bears' aggressive behavior in all four cases, none of them left the area. Herrero said although their sample size of their study was too small for bombproof conclusions, black bears seem to be more resistant to the physiological effects of pepper spray than brown bears.

Herrero, author of the 1985 book Bear Attacks: Their Causes and Avoidance, has studied bears since long before pepper sprays became popular in the 1980's. He said he raised his eyebrows at some of the study results, such as how consistently pepper spray turned back brown bears. But he also pointed out the sprays can become useless or even debilitating to the user in a strong wind. Rain and thick brush also cause delivery problems.

He said to rely on the spray as protection while ignoring other bear country essentials---such as storing food out of reach of bears or in bear-proof containers and making noise in thick brush--is just plain stupid. "This stuff isn't brains in a can," he said.

[Mooseman]

I just Love these armchair Grizzly Bear fighters sitting at the keyboards pretending to know wild animals. Until you Live in Alaska outside of the cities and you fish, and hunt and hike the wilderness and mountains Like I have for almost 30 years , don't try to convince me to carry" Preppie spray". True Alaskans Carry Guns...even the women carry guns . At least over 50 people know the right answer on this Barney Fife poll...

The rest need to stay in the safety of their crime watch neighborhoods and out of Alaska !!! Your pepper spray residue , tennis shoes and little bells are starting to litter our Landscape !

[XWrench3]

actually, the answer i really wanted was not on there. the CORRECT answer is......... a HOWITZER!

[waksupi]

Yep, I see why Jammer lives in a city.

[Recluse]

Random thoughts--

• I've had three bear encounters fairly up close and personal. Score at present is Recluse 3, Bears 0. The combination of gunpowder and metal projectile expended multiple times through use of a rifled boom stick gave me the edge I needed.

• My bear encounters were with inferior bears from the lower 48, and even more inferior, in the high mountains of Colorado. The one in Maine didn't count--the German Shepherds ran it off before I could shoot it, otherwise the score would be Recluse 3.5, Bears 0.

• If I were to ever encounter a serious grizzly with an attitude, I think I'd prefer one of our old HH-53 Pave Lows with the .30 cal minigun and I think I'd prefer to be flying rather than shooting because there is something about a grizzly bear that just doesn't sit well with me.

• I've been to Alaska a few times. The locals I knew laughed at pepper spray. Two of them I met carried Easy-Off oven cleaner with them. Cruel? Hell, yes. Effective? They're still walking up right and breathing after a very upclose and very personal encounter with a grizzly. Funny thing is, we also told women in Miami and New Orleans to carry a can of Easy Off in their cars as a defense against car-jackings back in the 80's.

• When I was in the Air Force and stationed up in northern Utah, we met some Wyoming ranchers who traded us unrestricted hunting and fishing privileges in exchange for us doing some cowboying for them. We started having a bit of a bear (and wolf) problem. Those old ranchers imported some dogs from overseas--I know, because we flew them in on undeclared MAC flights. Three Komondor and two Tibetan Mastiffs and the critter problems were over. One Komondor is bad enough--two are simply indefeatable. Same with those Tibetan Mastiffs--biggest, most ferocious dogs I've ever seen. We started finding random wolf carcasses, lots of yote carcasses and even several bear carcasses. Word got out, I guess, because we quit taking losses.

• When I'd go camping every summer in the high mountains of Colorado, I always took at least one of the Dobermans with me. Bears--and two-legged critters--can be pretty sneaky, but that dog heard all. Early warning was all I needed.

• I have zero qualms about shooting and killing anything that means me harm. People who tell me "you're in the bear's territory" are idiots. I, as man, rule the earth and so long as I'm smarter than any furry or fishy foes out there, I'll decide whose territory it is. I absolutely believe in co-existing, but because I mean no bear no harm (I do not hunt them, have no desire to hunt them, do not like the taste of bear meat, but do confess to having the occasional urge for a bearskin rug), it is the bear who decides it cannot co-exist with me, and therefore it will be the bear who perishes. Darwin's law. (Rattlesnakes and sharks are the exception--I'll go out of my way to kill a venomous snake as well as pretty much ANY shark.)

:coffee:

[prs]

Best defense is no be there. I said someone else with sharp stick, but only if they are slower than I.

prs

[Crash_Corrigan]

Bret: Along with your Walker Texas Ranger/Croccodile Dundee training ya forgot to mention your Supercool Ninja Warrior Fighting Costume with cape and your 50BMG Walking stick/sword cane and Buckshot's casting jock strap.

The smell of the jock should have the bear retreating PDQ................that's if ya can pry it away from Buckshot.....

[DanWalker]

I can think of two fairly recent instances where people were mauled here locally that had bear spray. In their back packs. That is where it usually is.

The cute little neoprene belt holsters make it nearly IMPOSSIBLE to get the pepper spray out with any quickness anyhow. I've got a standing bet with numerous people that I can stand 60 feet away, and when they say go, if they can spray me in the face with their bear spray before I can running tackle them, I'll give them 100 bucks. I'm good friends with lots of people who spend a great deal of time in bear country and have regular run ins with them. An old customer of mines son had to kill a grizz in self defense about 6 years ago. He shot it in the face at 10 feet while firing his 300WSM elk rifle from the hip. He wan't trying to be John Wayne. He just didn't have time to aim, because the bear was on him so quickly. He fired the rest of the mag DOWN into the top of the bears head, as it hit the ground at his feet. Being a smart guy, he called out to his brothers and had them come take LOTS of pics because he knew there was gonna be a big stink over it. I saw some of the pics, and they will give you chills when you see the bears head, and Bud's sons footprints on either side of it, and about a foot in front of it. His experience with the Federal game warden that responded to their call was quite positive. He said the guy looked at all the physical evidence and agreed that he was totally justified in what he did. They had to fill out some paperwork, but that was it. no harm, no foul.
We hunt and camp in Grizzly country. The area Southeast of Yellowstone NP has a huge concentration of bears, and is also where the problem bears from the park are relocated to. We keep 870's loaded with Brenneke slugs and 3" mag 00 buckshot. The Brenneke's are said to be harder than normal foster type slugs. My friends uncle camped near us 2 years ago and had a grizz come into his camp at night to eat the horse feed grain he forgot to put up before he went to bed. He ran it out of camp with some harsh language. YUP! He's an idiot. He's been around the mountains for nearly 60 years now, and Wyoming hasn't killed him yet...

[Wayne Smith]

I doubt I'll ever have the need or opportunity but there is a 405 Win in the closet with 350gr solid lead boolits for it if I do.

[Axton1]

Since "F250 Ford 4x4" is not a choice in the poll, I'm gonna sit this one out.......
:-)
Not interested in meeting up with a bear in the woods at night with a flsahlight and a switch in hand....
Ya'll can have'em!
A1

[Bret4207]

Not sure that's a good example-- the real life Crocodile Dundee lost the last gunfight he was in...

Just sayin'...

Guy, the bear would be sleepy after a full meal....after he ATE ME! Get it?

[Bret4207]

Bret: Along with your Walker Texas Ranger/Croccodile Dundee training ya forgot to mention your Supercool Ninja Warrior Fighting Costume with cape and your 50BMG Walking stick/sword cane and Buckshot's casting jock strap.

The smell of the jock should have the bear retreating PDQ................that's if ya can pry it away from Buckshot.....

Who told you about Busksnort and me exchanging jock straps??!!!!

[Bret4207]

There was a study that came out either this year or last year of all the bear attacks, both Grizzly and Black Bear. The ONLY defense that never failed in any one of the encounters, be it Grizzly or Black Bear, was pepper spray. When sprayed in the face, the bear has always stopped his attack and allowed the person to exit stage left.

On the other hand, those using firearms, both handgun and rifle, failed on several occasions. One of the main reasons sited for this is the difficulty in hitting a rather small target that is coming at you like a freight train especially at close range.

On the other hand, the bear spray spreads out like shotgun with a massive choke, making it next to impossible to miss the bear's head if the person doesn't lose his nerve and actually draws and fires the pepper spray.

I'm just sayin'....them's the facts. Personally, before seeing this, I would have leaned towards carrying both pepper spray AND a firearm, but then, if the pepper spray didn't work, it would be a little late for a firearm. Still, I would lean toward pepper spray first and if I became that first statistic that it didn't work for, and if I remained conscious with a bears jaws wrapped around part of my anatomy, hopefully I could still draw a pistol or revolver and still save the day.

By the same token, since pepper spray is more reliable than firearms, I would be giving myself the best chance to live by using spray rather than shooting. If the spray didn't work, although this has never happened, absolutely no one would then fault me for using a handgun provided I had tried the recommended pepper spray first.

Hey, that's great. I wonder if it was done by the same group that did a study and found wolves only eat sick and aged animals and hardly ever bother livestock or the group that did the study that found a gun in the home is more likely to be used against the occupants than a criminal and therefore guns should be outlawed or the group that did the study that determined the Amazon Rain Forest would be barren by 2005 or that the worlds oceans would have risen 15 feet by 2012?

Studies usually have agendas behind them. Never forget that.

[Jammer Six]

Bret: Along with your Walker Texas Ranger/Croccodile Dundee training ya forgot to mention your Supercool Ninja Warrior Fighting Costume with cape and your 50BMG Walking stick/sword cane and Buckshot's casting jock strap.
Well, according to Recluse, it's the Airforce Telecommandos that really pack the where-it's-at.


Studies usually have agendas behind them. Never forget that.
Sometimes that agenda is pure knowledge, using the scientific method. One must be able to distinguish between the two, if one wants to put a man on the moon, invent something worthwhile, cure cancer or sleep well at night.

I'm still alive because some genius figured out how to cure the symptoms that would have killed me. They did it with pure scientific method, and by ruthlessly discarding anything that wasn't truth.

[leftiye]

I want a nice big cuddly mamma grizzly! (and a .458 BAR, failing that a .50 alaskan Win 1886)

[Jammer Six]

And still at the top of the list, pepper spray! :D

[whiteoak]

Just glad there is nothing in my midwestern woods looking at me like I might make a good lunch...

[waksupi]

I bet the ones voting for pepper spray don't live where bears live.

[Mooseman]

And still at the top of the list, pepper spray! :D

It's at the top...But A Large rifle still has the Most Votes ! DUH...

[5 RING]

What no thermonuclear warhead, just asking [smilie=1:

[GabbyM]

I didn't vote because there was no choice for large caliber double action hand gun.

I’ve been in the swamps in the UP of Michigan tracking wounded black bear at night. Density of saplings made it near impossible to move my rifle around in the direction of sounds in the swamp. That was back in 1981 and I swore to never go bear hunting without a big revolver again. Since then I’ve purchased my one and only ever big revolver. A Colt 44 mag 6” Anaconda. I’ll never wear it out as I can’t stand the recoil enough. About once a year I’ll shoot a fifty round box though it and that’s all that I care to have. 38 Special wad cutter is more my speed for fun shooting.

If I were to go out to intentionally shoot a problem bear. I’d take a big bore rifle plus my 44 mag on a belt. Although the largest rifle I own is a 270 Win.

I sold some cast 420 grain boolits to a forum member up in Alaska last year. He was shooting an AR-15 in 458 SOCOM with 16” barrel. He shot velocities right in line with a 45-70 lever gun and from a multi shot semi auto which he said didn’t recoil all that bad. He owned a Marlin 45-70 so had some comparison. Boolits were WFN (wide flat nose) form one of our old group by Lee molds. He shot them through the stump of an approximately four foot diameter pine tree. Boolits were cast from an alloy based on 2:6 foundry with 50/50 solder added to bring the tin to antimony ratio more in balance to toughen the boolit. I think those 458 SOCOM AR’s hold nine rounds in a magazine. I’d still carry my hand gun but for a bear defense rifle I can’t imagine a better package. Personally I’d stick with a bolt action but I’d not be thinking I had a more lethal firearm than the 458 SOCOM.

[nanuk]

There was a study that came out .... The ONLY defense that never failed in any one of the encounters, be it Grizzly or Black Bear, was pepper spray. When sprayed in the face, the bear has always stopped his attack and allowed the person to exit stage left.
They Obviously haven't talked to some in British Columbia, or in Churchill Mb.

I'm just sayin'....them's the facts.
Facts, as far as they went looking.

By the same token, since pepper spray is more reliable than firearms....
The last two cans of bear spray I had failed when tested before a camping trip! I've yet to have a firearm misfire (excepting a .22)

I'm just sayin'.... them's the facts.

[GabbyM]

I'm just sayin'.... them's the facts.

Yes but I can assure you that I can hit a charging grizzly right were I aim my 44 magnum or for that matter one of my 38 Special revolvers. They will drop like a sack of potatoes and I know this. I’m 56 years old and have been in many far worse situations than a stupid big animal charging.
If all I had was a can of pepper spray or pocket knife I’m sure Jesus and I would have another one of our “here I come” 2 ½ second conversations. Although the chance of me getting caught in bear country with a can of spray is nil to zero as I’m not a dumb ***.

[Jammer Six]

Gabby, unless you're a cop, you'd do well to study avoidance theories.

Most folks don't ever get themselves into that bad a scrape in a lifetime.

[GabbyM]

Gabby, unless you're a cop, you'd do well to study avoidance theories.

Most folks don't ever get themselves into that bad a scrape in a lifetime.

Unless you're a cop?
My gosh man what world do you live in where a cop has a job that is in the least bit dangerous. Maybe some TV dream land. For sure the job of an LEO is stressful on more levels than I can count. Dangerous just isn’t in the job description except as myth. Propagated by the macho skin heads.

[Jammer Six]

My gosh man what world do you live in where a cop has a job that is in the least bit dangerous.
Yup, that's pretty much the way I had it figured. I see how it happened.

Fifty-six is higher than I would have bet.

[saz]

Depends on what I am doing. If hunting for big furries, then by all means big high power rifle. If I am out berry picking or fishing in bear country (pretty much all of AK), my 44mag will be on the hip, or my 16" Puma 92 in 454 casull slung over my back. All depends on the situation.
But bear spray? No.....

[lead4me]

Here ya go.....http://video.foxnews.com/v/1482193676001/grizzly-charges-at-hikers/?playlist_id=87937&intcmp=obnetwork

[Texantothecore]

Just glad there is nothing in my midwestern woods looking at me like I might make a good lunch...

I would be a bit less casual about this. I have spotted mountain lions in Missouri and they seem to be all over the place. I suspect that there are many more than the state wildlife departments know as they are very secretive unless they want you for a snack. Then, not so much.

If you have deer or elk in your area you probably have predators.

[waksupi]

To practice shooting a charging bears brain. Get ten feet of surgical rubber tubing and hang it somewhere that it is clear of the ground. Attach a tennis ball. Pull the ball back and let it spring on the rubber. Shoot the ball in under three seconds. Congratulation, if you hit the ball under these circumstances, you are qualified to make a head shot on a charging bear. They don't stand still, the ground ain't level, and you ain't Wild Bill Hickok! [smilie=f:

[Recluse]

Gabby, unless you're a cop, you'd do well to study avoidance theories.

Most folks don't ever get themselves into that bad a scrape in a lifetime.


Yup, that's pretty much the way I had it figured. I see how it happened.

Fifty-six is higher than I would have bet.

You know something Jammer? Some of us folks here have been around just a bit ourselves, and unlike you, do not profess to know everything about everything and anything about everything or everything about anything.

LOTS of us here have been in law enforcement, from local agencies to federal agencies. Even more of us here have been in the U.S. military, with a lot of us here having smelled the smoke of hostile enemy fire and having returned it--yeah, even some of us "airforce telecommandos," whatever the hell those are or was being implied.

"Most folks don't get themselves in that bad of a scrape. . ."

You're hung up on statistics. Just wait until you become one.

I adopted a sixteen-year-old girl who was a statistical anomaly. At seventeen, she almost found herself in a situation where she would've been raped and beaten. I put the would-be assailant in "a bad scrape," again defying your BS statistics.

A lot of us grew up in the country where you didn't have friendly cops to call anytime you heard something go "bump" in the night. Sometimes you had real bad people on your land. Hobos, drunks, criminals on the run, druggies, etc.

And then there was the wildlife that didn't give a damn about statistics or your MO of "Most folks don't get themselves in that bad of a scrape. . ."

I hope to God that you're not a law enforcement person, because if you are, you are a prime example of why so many average Americans no longer trust, admire or have much use for today's LE personnel. Instead, they pay obligatory lip service to "we salute our heroes in LE, blah blah" because it is easier and safer to take that route than the other.

You've obviously not been in too many "bad scrapes" yourself, given your attitude towards those who have.

Waksupi had it right--dung beetle. Same as your whole BS on reloads/factory and your world knowledge of what happens in a civilian righteous shooting.

Welcome to the Ignore List.
:coffee:

[Jammer Six]

Welcome to the Ignore List.

Buh-bye...

And still at the top of the list, pepper spray!

[waksupi]

You know, we do have rules about trolls on this forum. You may want to check up on that.

[1Shirt]

Yep, like Mooseman says! Until you have lived in Alaska, it is all theory. I should have retired there!
1Shirt!

[dagger dog]

I voted a ROCK so I can get between it and a hardplace , and MAYBE just MAYBE out of grizz's path :bigsmyl2:

A 12 ga pump gun and slugs for me please!

[ShooterAZ]

12 Ga Pump Shotgun, extended magazine tube, 00Buck alternated with slugs. This and a prayer, and some extra underwear.

[Texantothecore]

Jammer, Science is a business just like any other and frequently the real customers are the foundations and donors who fund the research and publishing.

You produce a study that your donors agree with or you lose their money.

Much of what passes for science is nothing more than a retail business. If you don't believe me, go look at some of the studies published in "New Scientist". Frequently the studies are absolute garbage cooked up by someone looking to extend their funding. It's awful.

[Jammer Six]

Texantothecore, I live with a doc who runs a research department at the U of W.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

I've watched her go around the clock, both on studies, getting them right and with the N.I.H., getting grants.

The scientific method has created advances that have literally kept me alive.

If you are having a hard time distinguishing between hard science and garbage studies, I don't know what to tell you. From where I'm standing, it's pretty black and white. There's the scientific method, and there's John Lott, Playboy and the National Enquirer.

If you stop reading garbage studies, and start hanging around with real scientists, it's a lot easier to believe.

[shotstring]

I just reported on what I had read. But for people to bash a tool (and that is all it is, just another tool) that has had great success against aggressive bears is simply ignoring some important stats, regardless whose stats you use.

Of the bear attacks that I have seen presented, half of them died with rifles in their hands as they were hunting when they were attacked. They did not have or use pepper spray. Did not have or use a shotgun. Most of them fired their weapons at the bear and some even hit the bear, but not in a telling spot. But realistically, how many of us can hit a small kill zone and an even smaller "stopping" zone with a small slug at an animal bearing down on us from less than 30 yards away with the speed that enables them to run down an elk? These dead guys couldn't. Tough to find a single remedy that covers all the bases. That's why for me it will always be pepper spray AND a weapon.

[Bret4207]

Texantothecore, I live with a doc who runs a research department at the U of W.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

I've watched her go around the clock, both on studies, getting them right and with the N.I.H., getting grants.

The scientific method has created advances that have literally kept me alive.

If you are having a hard time distinguishing between hard science and garbage studies, I don't know what to tell you. From where I'm standing, it's pretty black and white. There's the scientific method, and there's John Lott, Playboy and the National Enquirer.

If you stop reading garbage studies, and start hanging around with real scientists, it's a lot easier to believe.

You're being an insulting idiot. And Pepper spray isn't at the top of the list except in your mind.

[shotstring]

"At a meeting of the Montana Outfitters and Guides Association here in Great Falls some years back, the hunting in grizzly country was one of the main subjects of discussion. Guides from the Wyoming Outfitters and Guides Association and U.S. Fish and Wildlife personnel who had worked in Alaska, home of big brown bears, were the speakers.

The Wyoming guides said that in their backcountry camps everybody — guides or clients — carries two cans of bear spray. They have one at cotside during the night and they carry another for trips to the cook tent or the privy. The USFWS guys said they carried shotguns loaded with slugs or rifles of at least .338 caliber when traveling in Alaska's bear country.

Hunting in grizzly bear country is not something to take lightly. If you kill a grizzly bear, state and federal authorities will investigate the incident thoroughly and if there is no proof it was self defense, federal agents will cite you."

Penalties can result in 6 months in jail and $100,000 fine plus additional state penalties. Getting killed by a bear is not something to take lightly, but then neither are the penalties for killing one.

This is one reputable source on the virtues of bear spray. There are dozens more easily found with a simple search or two. Yes, most experienced folks carry firearms if they are allowed to. But they also carry bear spray. Cheap insurance.

When I used to hunt bear in the Sierras with a bow, we weren't allowed to carry firearms, as they were afraid someone would shoot an animal and then place an arrow in the bullet hole. That law has changed in the last few years, but prior to that, archery hunters were limited to their bows, a knife and bear spray. While we don't have Grizz here, we have some of the largest black bear in the country, topping out and over 700 pounds. While generally not as reactive as brown bear, black bear may have actually killed more people than brown bear. It was usually a male bear and the people were stalked and charged and eaten for food. No stopping a bear attack that has you on the menu by lying still and if you don't fight you die. The weekend I went camping in Yellowstone, two people were dragged out of tents, killed and partially eaten at the next campground up from ours.
Just pointing out that black bears, while generally not as aggressive as brown bears, are nothing to take for granted.

As for the reason that bear spray is so effective if done properly, bears have such a sensitive smelling mechanism in their noses that when a stream of pepper spray hits their nose and nasal cavities, it is normally so overwhelming that they can't breathe. Nothing takes the fight out of any animal faster than not being able to get oxygen into their lungs. So they break off the attack until they can breathe again. If they then decide to attack again, if you are still there and you shouldn't be, you hit them in the noggin again with the spray and they once again can't breathe. My guess as to the spraying of bears that was less effective involved the bear turning his head or some other reason for the spray not getting into his nasal cavities in proper amounts. That would be a limitation of spraying technique, not a limitation of the spray itself.

If you already know all of that stuff, please disregard, but it seemed from some of the posts that many might not be aware of all of the above information.

[T-Bird]

12 ga sxs with cylinder bore, 2 slugs,and guts. T-Bird

[MajorJim]

A slow hunting partner

[MajorJim]

And still at the top of the list, pepper spray!

Good call.


The National Park Rangers are advising hikers in Glacier National Park and other Rocky Mountain parks to be alert for bears and take extra precautions to avoid an encounter.
They advise park visitors to wear little bells on their clothes so they make noise when hiking. The bell noise allows bears to hear them coming from a distance and not be startled by a hiker accidentally sneaking up on them. This might cause a bear to charge.
Visitors should also carry a pepper spray can just in case a bear is encountered. Spraying the pepper into the air will irritate the bear's sensitive nose and it will run away.
It is also a good idea to keep an eye out for fresh bear scat so you have an idea if bears are in the area. People should be able to recognize the difference between black bear and grizzly bear scat.
Black bear droppings are smaller and often contain berries, leaves, and possibly bits of fur. Grizzly bear droppings tend to contain small bells and smell of pepper.


A curious bear may be deterred by irritating its sinuses. A charging bear is a tunneled visioned freight train not affected by much of anything except its target. Except for a heavy dose of lead. And therein lies the charm of the 500 S&W.

[Texantothecore]

Texantothecore, I live with a doc who runs a research department at the U of W.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

I've watched her go around the clock, both on studies, getting them right and with the N.I.H., getting grants.

The scientific method has created advances that have literally kept me alive.

If you are having a hard time distinguishing between hard science and garbage studies, I don't know what to tell you. From where I'm standing, it's pretty black and white. There's the scientific method, and there's John Lott, Playboy and the National Enquirer.

If you stop reading garbage studies, and start hanging around with real scientists, it's a lot easier to believe.

Lotte's work is sound in all respects. I am well trained in statistics and his work is useful for teaching people how to apply statistical analysis in a real live world. Because of this background I am well area of what is good science and what is simply another project to gather funding from gullible donors.

I also design and build my own telescopes, build the motor drives and code the control software that gets me to a new galaxy.

A lot of the published science is garbage. Gobal Warming is a complete hoax.

[Jammer Six]

I am well trained in statistics and his work is useful for teaching people how to apply statistical analysis in a real live world.
Well, we certainly agree there.

[jwp475]

Post your first choice for defense against The Grizz!



You didn;t list a big bore revolver such the 475L that I used to stop the berar on the left in this picture as the Moose on the left of the picture


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/00000009.jpg

[rintinglen]

I had a 45-70 Replica Remington Rolling Block with a curved steel butt plate that would stop any grizzly ever born--if only I could get it to shoot a heavy load from the gun. Boy that thing hurt to shoot.

[pmer]

I am available for a fee to bear hunters. I got a bad ankle and can't run too fast. You must buy my hunting licsense and cover meals too.

:drinks:

[trk]

The sacrifical lamb is works for a time - perhaps enough time to swing around the .458WM or my double 10ga with 2-1/2oz slugs.

[para-frame]

I'll take a cast 9mm boolit...in my 9x57 or .358 win. [smilie=l:

[GabbyM]

I'll take a cast 9mm boolit...in my 9x57 or .358 win. [smilie=l:

Actually I've carried a S&W model 39-2 loaded with Hornady 125gr TCFP soft nose 357 magnum bullets over 7.7 grains of Blue dot while baiting for black bears in the UP of Michigan. That was back in 1981 but I'd do it again. Those bullets will penetrate a couple feet. It's generally about where you place them not simply how big they are. Back then the 9x19mm was the largest hand gun I owned. Have larger revolvers now so that’s what I’d carry. Would also have my cast boolits laoded in it.

[sniper]

Take away his Credit Card??? :groner:

[Loudenboomer]

The only one I killed was with a 44mag pistol, but would rather have a big rifle. Shotgun slugs seem like a good idea but often lack penatration, they work OK for deer but big bears are another thing, it is nice to have a big pistol to fight your way to a rifle if needed.

I have a short barreled BPS and Federal 10 Ga. 3 1/2" Magnum 1 3/4 oz. slugs. Just for this sort of thing :)

[jonp]

Unless you have faced a griz or a kodiak, it is mostly conjecture. Shot mine with 375 H&H w/300 gr. Hor, at about 25 yds, face on, it rolled her backwards, and she got up,still went 200 yds before she bled out. My partner took his at about 65 yds. with a 200 gr. speer in an O6, and dropped it in its tracks. Don't think there is to much gun for the big bears. My blt went full length thru the bear, and I dug the blt out at the base of the tail. My shot took lungs and went thru about 5-6' foot of bear. My partners shot was a high spine shot.

They are magnificant animals and deserve clean kills.

If I had the chance to go back for another in Alaska, think it would be with a max loaded 45-70 with at least a 400 gr. blt, or 375 H&H with 300gr Barnes or Swift. A 12 gage with slugs might be a good choice, however, I have seen deer hit with slugs solidly still go a couple of hundred yards. Hit poorly, I have also seen multi hits on deer with slugs get away. Shot placement with something heavy enough to anchor a griz is always going to be the key to sucess.
1Shirt!

I agree from all that I have read and heard that a 375 H&H is enough gun but I have a question. If you shot the griz from 25yrds and she ran 200yrds before dieing doesn't that mean she could have reached you 8x over and committed hari cari?

[jonp]

I, like a bunch of other guys here, have read a bunch on this subject. At one time I worked for different Game and Fish Depts out west and cruised timber for FS and an environment consulting co. I also was planning on a Griz hunt in Alaska but could never get the funds together but am still dreaming of hitting the Powerball and making it come true.
For a rifle 300Win seems to be the minimum recommended with "the largest you can handle" sage advice from those that live up there and hunt/guide for a living. For a handgun when fishing, trapping where a rifle is not feasible to carry bigger is better with a 44Mag the lowest choice and a 45Colt with Buffalo Bore or handloads or a 454 and above better choices.
I always thought a 12guage with appropriate slugs would be a great choice considering the wound channel resulting from the slug but it is not a choice due to lack of penetration. I find this odd but I'm willing to take the advice of men with far more experience in this than I have (which is none).
The best choice is to avoid a confrontation every way possible and I would never trust my life to a spray because some clown in DC decided hurting a bear was bad.

[Canuck Bob]

I've encountered Alberta griz a couple of times. I carried a 444 loaded with 265 Hornady FN. The last year we could buy a spring license over the counter (yes it once was possible in this lifetime) I carried a 375 H&H Ruger No. 1 Tropical.

After finding a big sow with twins up high I felt the single shot was too much romantic nonsense and wished it was the Marlin. Once over an early morning dispute over ownership of a carcass the 444 was welcome but I sure didn't feel overgunned. We negotiated a settlement. The bear got the carcass I got to leave quick, win win in my book. I would feel adequate gunned with a hard hitting 12 gauge, hard hitting heavy bullet from a big rifle, or better yet two or three buddies also so armed.

I also started thinking keep putting accurate rounds into the beast until it stops moving. The carcass experience taught me about real fear and a steady aim. Panic kills at such times.