Finaly completed my 1911 linup!

[MBTcustom]

I was in the extremely rare situation today, where I ran across a deal and had the money to jump on it. A friend at work told me he had a friend that was selling a bunch of guns to make room in his safe. He told me about several (I wanted them all) but he mentioned the guy had a Norinco 1911 that he would sell for $300. I told him to call the guy, If the gun was in good condition and was pleasing to the eye then I wanted it. The guy texted some pictures of the gun and I had a look at it. I went to the bank and about 20 minutes later I was teh proud owner of this little number:
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_2119.jpg
My buddy said he had shot that gun personaly and he said that it functioned flawlessly and was accurate too. The guy I bought it from threw in these extra goodies:
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_2118.jpg
I dont mean to brag, but sometimes the Lord provides, and it's so great that you just have to share!
The first 1911 I got was an IAI hardballer 6", then I got a Rock Island 3.5", I needed a 5" to complete the lineup and this one is it.
Here they are together for the family shot:
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_2120.jpg
I finally got lucky! All things come to he who waits and I have been waiting a long time for a good deal.

[geargnasher]

Everybody needs one of those, about time you got one! Congrats on a good deal.

Gear

[MBTcustom]

Thanks gear, I'm pretty excited! Well, I'm excited anyway.

[Mk42gunner]

Even though it is made in China; the Norinco 1911 is supposed to be a good gun, whether you leave it stock or plan to use it as a base to build on.

You also need a Commander sized (4.25") gun.

And then there is........

Robert

[Trey45]

I have heard and read many glowing reports on how well those Norinco's are built and function. A gunsmith friend has told me tales of machining Novak dovetails in them for sight installation, the slides he has cut have been very hard. Congrats on a great deal on a great 1911.

[MBTcustom]

I am soooo glad somebody had something good to say about the Norinco. I felt I couldn't lose on a 1911 because as long as the slide and frame are not cracked, I can build one like a brick outhouse. Still, I have never dealt with a Chinese 1911 before and I was concerned about quality.
In the past, I have had extremely good luck with the Philipeno 1911's, using them as a base to build from and you cant get much worse in quality than that!
So far this one looks better than those did.

[AndyC]

Oh, you lucky bastard! :D

The Norc is an outstanding 1911. Sure, it's as rough as a badger's bum on the inside and has poky sights and whatever, but the steel makes for probably the strongest 1911 out there. I built one up around 1989 or 1990 (stolen around 2003) and it was hands-down the best 1911 I ever owned in my life. I carried it on-duty, competed with it in IPSC - never missed a beat. I'm looking for another one to build up, but everyone wants $500 + for theirs.

Ditch the crappy "compensator" - it's useless.


Back to the steel. One of the best reads you need to keep handy - stolen from another forum:


Here is a copy of a post from a friend of mine who is an engineer in Ottawa that will give you some idea of the quality of the steel in Norincos.

"Allright, well let me first start by explaining a few things about steel in general, including Ordnance grades of steel. Hardness does not necessarily equate to brittleness, that is a function of heat treating and alloy. Even softer steels can crack and be brittle, it's a matter of how the internal stresses are relieved, or not, by annealing and hardening processes, as well as upon carbon on other constituent elements found in the steel.

Also should mention, I'm comparing apples to apples, so only the CroMo Colt is being compared to the CroMo Norinco here. The stainless guns have their own quirks (like spalling problems, corrosion resistance benefits, etc.)

In layman's terms, the more important characteristics to crafting firearms is the toughness of the steel and modulous of elasticity of the steel. You want steel that is ductile enough to flex at the microscopic level and return to its original shape but hard enough to have good wear resistance and, in higher end guns, be able to take and keep the desired finish without dinging up too easily.

Now if we want to talk about relative hardness of steels, Norincos are made from a different steel formulation than Colts are. Comparing Rockwell hardnesses really won't tell you much, but as a general observation, on average the Norincos are at least 30% harder on the surface than most other 1911's, including the Colt. This does not mean they are more brittle - it means that the alloy used to Make the Norincos (5100 tool steel*) results in a much harder surface when heat treated than does the Colt alloy (4140 Ordnance grade tool steel*).

*Although the exact alloy formulations are "industrial secrets", destructive testing done in the USA by the DCM (circa 1997) determined that Colt uses 4140 and the Chinese formulation used in 1911's and M14S receivers is an exact match to AISI 5100 series steel.

Perhaps this is the time to mention something else about Colts. Colt does not use the same alloy today it used in WW2 and earlier. In WW1, the guns were not even given what we think of today as "heat treating". Those older guns were only spot-treated at high stress areas and today have a rather high incidence of slide cracking using full factory loads due to a number of factors, including metal fatigue, crack propagation, creep, etc. coupled with the fact that vast portions of the slide and frame have no treatment at all. That being said, the steel is very ductile and in the event of failure, it should just bend and crack - not fracture like a grenade. A good thing, but at the same time - these babies should be collected and admired more than turned into a range marathon pistol!

I could get further into heat treating, including annealing, case hardening, gas carburizing, cyanide dips, etc. and the resulting pearlitic and/or martensitic grain structures, but frankly, unless you work in a foundry or have a mechanical engineering degree and understanding of materials science, it would be way too far over everyone's head so I'll try to keep this explanation understandable for the average fellow

Now for a short note on Chinese steel "quality". The Chinese are as advanced as we are in Steel production. Is Chicom steel of poorer quality on average on a gross domestic production basis? Yes, absolutely. This is because the majority of China's manufacturing is devoted to the Wal-Marts of the world at a very low price point, so cheaper steels are generally produced and used for those products. The steel used in their weapons, however, is every bit as up to snuff as North American steel is.

So now we get into the 5100 alloy Norinco 1911 in particular. 5100 is an EXCELLENT receiver material. It hardens very well on the surface but maintains an adequately ductile core. This gives great wear resistance and great resistance to plastic deformation (deformation that causes the parts to permanently deform or warp). The one achilles heel to 5100 series alloys is that they are notoriously hard to machine. Norinco, I suspect, machines their parts with carbide cutters prior to heat treating. On a finished gun the only way you're going to cut it with HSS mill bits is if you spot-anneal the steel with a torch first. Most smiths have to buy carbide mill bits to work the steel, and even then there's a very high tool wear rate. This is probably why so few smiths will do Novak cuts to a Norinco slide - they probably only have HSS tooling!

5100 alloy is, most probably, the alloy most manufacturers WOULD chose to build receivers if tool bits were cheap and labor costs were low. It really does have better end-product properties than 4140 steel does, and it's also easier to smelt at the steel mill and forges beautifully. Virtually all Cro-Mo guns made in the west that aren't cast, however, are made of 4140 or other 4100 series alloys. 4140 is an entirely adequate steel for use in guns, it also wears tools at a much slower rate and can still be machined easily after hardening. The Chinese are fortunate in that they make many of the tool steel bits on the market (cheap supply) and lobor costs are very low. This makes 5100 steel actually cheaper for them to use b/c of the lower costs associated with making the steel stock.

All this to say, you can complain about the design, fit, finish, and economics of a Norinco 1911. But frankly, trashing the steel is a bigotted and unfounded arguement based on ignorance and reliance on the Go-USA writings of most internet experts "

I hope this gives you a better perspective of the Norinco 1911.

[MBTcustom]

I am so very, very glad I jumped on this one! I had no idea what I was buying! I took those crummy hogue grips off of there and replaced them with a set of Colt checkered grips I have been saving for this day for 10 years. I also added safety tape to the front of the grip. I would never install such useless toiletry on a 1911 as that compensator bushing, except it looked so cool on my long slide that I couldn't resist.
Thanks for the info guys!

[GL49]

I really like my Norinco, but once in a while it has a bad habit of putting a hot piece of brass down the front of my shirt. Haven't figured that one out yet. Does your RIA feed OK? Mine only seems to like round nose bullets. (Nope, not intended to be a thread hijack.)

[Max Brand]

Man, you did good! If I could find Norinco's at that price I would buy them all day long! I have other 1911's but if I had to choose between them it would be a tough call between my Kimber and the Norinco. They are great customizers and strong as an anvil, literally. They are one of the few 1911's recommended for the 460 Rowland conversion and that is saying a lot for them.
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1992/10790285/22529391/399540593.jpg

This one I fitted with a Wilson beavertail and a few other goodies.

Max

[wgr]

I am so very, very glad I jumped on this one! I had no idea what I was buying! I took those crummy hogue grips off of there and replaced them with a set of Colt checkered grips I have been saving for this day for 10 years. I also added safety tape to the front of the grip. I would never install such useless toiletry on a 1911 as that compensator bushing, except it looked so cool on my long slide that I couldn't resist.
Thanks for the info guys!

i bought one new a few years back for 250.00. wish i had bought 10.

[MBTcustom]

Does your RIA feed OK? Mine only seems to like round nose bullets.

My RIA is a tyrannosaur, It eats everything, I finally got it to jam last weekend with some ammo I made that had bulges in it. (no big surprise there) However, there are gunsmiths out there who can properly ramp and throat your 1911 so that it will munch down any ammo. Or, call Armscorp and talk to their gunsmith, His name is Arnold and he will help you with any issue. I can't speak highly enough about RIA and armscorp. I was looking for an ambi safety for the pistol above, and didnt like the prices I was seeing, not only that, but I saw a RIA ambi safety, and I liked the design better than anything else on the market (very clever by the way), so I called up Arnold and asked if he could sell me an ambi safety for my pistol. He informed me that they sell that part for $25 and it should drop right in my gun a week from now if I order it up. I did, and it did. $25 and I didn't even have to tune it to the pistol! It was a drop in part.
Now when I bought that pistol, I bought two of them, consecutive serial numbers. Mine ran like a sewing machine right out of the box, the other one jammed quite a bit. I first spoke to Arnold when I called about the jamming in the other pistol. He told me to run 400 more rounds through it and call him back (he said it in a very nice way, not terse at all) I ran the ammo through it and sure enough, it settled right in and I had no more troubles.
I would buy another RIA in a heartbeat, just because of the customer service, but the quality of the pistol and the fine machine work is why I bought it in the first place. That pistol is finely finished inside and out.

[runfiverun]

my norinco will feed about anything you can throw at it.
i like the lyman 200 gr swc [mainly because i have a 4 cavity]
but i do hit the mouth of the case in the roll crimp die,and i mean bump/barely touch,kinda move some copper/sorta.
right over/on the edge of the front band.
dunno why it likes it that way but it does, i don't have to do it for my auto-ordinance even though it takes the same seating depth and all.

[AndyC]

...call Armscorp and talk to their gunsmith, His name is Arnold and he will help you with any issue.
That would be Arnel - good dude, he is.


I really like my Norinco, but once in a while it has a bad habit of putting a hot piece of brass down the front of my shirt. Haven't figured that one out yet.
Loose ejector or the extractor is clocking (rotating in its tunnel), usually.

[MBTcustom]

Arnel thats right! Sorry, remembering names is not my strong suit.

[gandydancer]

Man, you did good! If I could find Norinco's at that price I would buy them all day long! I have other 1911's but if I had to choose between them it would be a tough call between my Kimber and the Norinco. They are great customizers and strong as an anvil, literally. They are one of the few 1911's recommended for the 460 Rowland conversion and that is saying a lot for them.
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1992/10790285/22529391/399540593.jpg

This one I fitted with a Wilson beavertail and a few other goodies.

Max
Max Brand! I like your avatar the best cowboy star of them all GEORGE gabby HAYES.

[ErikO]

Nice score. :)

A RIA Commander-sized is in my plans as well.

[Artful]

If the compensator is the same as I have. allows easy one handed loading by pushing against the nearest hard surface (floor, wall, car). Didn't do much for muzzle flip.

Congrats on completing your set. Have you started looking for your 1917 or 625 or 25 model revolver?

[Boolseye]

That's a sweet family portrait of your 1911s. I have an RIA Govt. 5" and I shoot it all the time. Something about it I really like. I did have an early lockback problem, so maybe I'll give Arnel a call...

[EMC45]

The Norincos are fine 1911s. I had one years back and kick myself for getting rid of it!

[MBTcustom]

I would challenge anyone to shoot an RIA to pieces. I wouldn't want to fill it up with Wilson parts, but I doubt it will ever let me down as is. They may be cast, but so far its holding up like a champ.
I carry the RIA as my sidearm (I'm sure you noticed the finish abrasions) It just plain runs! The best part is that if anything breaks or needs maintenance, Arnel will hook me up pronto.

[MBTcustom]

Case in point, I just called Arnel (775-537-1444) and told him that the recoil spring is feeling a little weak in the little one. He took down my name, number, and address and told me that a new spring was in the mail to me. He also mentioned that I should think about perchasing a 22# recoil spring from Wolf because it is better quality than the original and might last longer. I told him that I had tried that before and had trouble because the spring was too long and I had to clip the spring to get it to fit in the gun. He told me that was correct and gave me a quick tutorial on the correct way to trim the spring.
What more could you ask for?

[EMC45]

Now you have me wanting an RIA................I have a bunch of 1911 parts and junk laying about that could gussy one up with.

[MBTcustom]

Or you could buy the mil-spec gun and get Arnel to send you drop in parts to turn it into a fine broad tailed hole punch.
I was amazed that the ambi safety he sent me dropped right in and needed no fitting. There was nothing for me to do. Usualy I still have to stone one to get the perfect engagement with some other brands, but the RIA dropped in and felt good. I love how they retain the right side safety too, no tucking a dorky strip of metal under the grip If I ever need to install an ambi-safety on another gun, I'm either ordering a RIA or I am going to smith a wilson to work that way.
By the way, the cheapest after market safety I could find was $45. Arnel sold me the RIA for $19.95.

[AndyC]

I was amazed that the ambi safety he sent me dropped right in and needed no fitting. There was nothing for me to do. Usualy I still have to stone one to get the perfect engagement with some other brands, but the RIA dropped in and felt good.
That's when I get worried.

Too big and won't fit, fine - stone it until it does. However, if it just drops right in, I worry that there's too big a gap between the back of the sear and the engagement-nub of the thumb-safety - and any gap that allows the sear to move even slightly is bad news; it doesn't take much movement for the hammer to drop.

Make sure it passes the 1911 safety-checks: http://www.cylinder-slide.com/1911safetyck.shtml

[MBTcustom]

That's when I get worried.

Too big and won't fit, fine - stone it until it does. However, if it just drops right in, I worry that there's too big a gap between the back of the sear and the engagement-nub of the thumb-safety - and any gap that allows the sear to move even slightly is bad news; it doesn't take much movement for the hammer to drop.

Make sure it passes the 1911 safety-checks: http://www.cylinder-slide.com/1911safetyck.shtml
Yesterday 08:54 AM
That's what I am saying, It was perfect from the factory! No clicks no creeps. It wont even ride the pin over the divot when depressed (pet peeve of mine). It was a very tight fit. In fact I had to work it for a while until it busted off some parkerizing that was in the way.