Lyman mold too small

[tomme boy]

OK, i just got this mold and I am unable to use it as it came. It is throwing the boolits too small. They are throwing at 0.4495-0.4500" It makes really nice boolits, just small.

I don't know what it is, I seem to not be able to get a mold that works for me. [smilie=b:

I think I am going to send it to Eric and have him open it up.

[pergoman]

What alloy are you using? Some metals shrink much more than others which yields undersized bullets.

[tomme boy]

I have tried ww, ww+ 2% tin, range lead, 1/2 range lead 1/2 ww. They all throw the same.

[Al_sway]

Maybe I missed it, but what mould are you using, and what diameter is it supposed to cast?

[jmsj]

tomme boy
I have had the same issues w/ some Lyman molds. If it is new maybe you could get Lyman to take it back. I have been able to "beagle" up and or lap a mold up a couple thousandths. The directions for "Beagleing" and lapping are in the stickies.
Good luck, jmsj

[.22-10-45]

Hello, I collect Ideal & Lyman moulds. It seems the old Ideals from around the end of the
19th century to the first few decades of the 20th, were a bit oversized. Of course the thinking at that time was sizing was good for a bullet. Then too, the tolerances were all over the shop for rifle bores & a too big of a bullet was better than too small.
What I think happened, was Lyman just kept re-sharpening those old cherrys..of course they got smaller. I don't care for the shapes of the new styles..too much of the CNC look for my taste..gone are the old victorian curved ogives, etc..but there is no excuse for the rash of complaints I seem to be seeing on undersized moulds.

[Lucas]

I too have the same problem. 44 mag Lyman 429421 dropping 0.429 bullets. I was pointed toward Erik @ hollowpoint mold service. He responded right away and I now have two Lyman moulds headed over to him tomorrow. Both the 44 mag and 38 dropped too small. Now, I wait in anticipation for my moulds....

[Reload3006]

I have a 4 cavity Lyman 45 and its going to have to be beagled.... makes great boolits drop right out no sticking what so ever perfectly formed but abut 3 - 4 thousandths undersized. What a pity.

[zomby woof]

Welcome to the club

[Shooter6br]

That is why i bought an Accurate Molds 31-L . It is a simular to the Lyman 314299 but throws a true .314 bullet Sized to .313 for M 1917 with 5 groove original barrel. You are lucky to get a Lyman to cast as advertised. Midway puts a disclaimer on Lyman molds as to cast size A .311299 may not be .311 i have some older Lyman that cast right on the money.

[Larry Gibson]

Let me see....an Accurate .314XXX mould throws a .314 bullet and that is good. A Lyman 429XXX thows a .429 bullet and that is bad.......I guess I don't "see".

I have and have had many Lyman moulds over the years and I've yet to get one that won't cast to the nominal diameter of the bullet title with a correct alloy, mould temp and alloy temp.....perhaps I am just lucky?

Larry Gibson

[tomme boy]

Larry, you must get the molds that are run on the lathe with bad bearings that make the cherry wobble to the right size.:kidding:

[Ben]

Two things I hear a lot of these days..........

(1) Lyman molds that throw bullets that are too small.

(2) Our country is in trouble.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, you must get the molds that are run on the lathe with bad bearings that make the cherry wobble to the right size.:kidding:

Tommy

If you want I'll PM you my address and you can mail me the mould. I'll cast some with it and see, then send it back?

And I am not :kidding:

Larry Gibson

[69papatango]

OK, i just got this mold and I am unable to use it as it came. It is throwing the boolits too small. They are throwing at 0.4495-0.4500" It makes really nice boolits, just small.

I don't know what it is, I seem to not be able to get a mold that works for me. [smilie=b:

I think I am going to send it to Eric and have him open it up.


Yup have the same issue with my Lyman 429421 dropping right at .429 and my bore is .431, my Lyman 358429 drops small also, it drops .357" but the front driving band is .355". I am currently Beagling but aluminum tape comes off after about 50 casts.

BTW, this is using WW and WW/lino. I did however get the 429421 to drop at .430" with pure lino......But I can't afford pure lino to feed my hungry .44's

[runfiverun]

every lyman mold i have bought before 2011 has poured over the mould numbers size.
my 358's were closer to 359
my 452's pour closer to 453 or 454
my recent ones have been under,
the mold number 429677 made 428 barely. [i knew it would be small going in, and had the stuff out waiting to lap it once it got here]
they don't offer a 431677 or i would have bought that.
my 314299 does make 314 but the nose is definately not 299 it is 304 like it's supposed to be.

i'm guessing that the thing to do is to stop buying lyman molds untill they can ,,,,umm, catch up.

[tomme boy]

This one had a inspection date of 93. It is on its way to Eric to have opened up.

[Ausglock]

Welcome to the club

What he said...

452374 2 cavity was throwing .449.
Beagled it to .453.
No worries now.
I wish Lyman would get their act together, or they simply don't care about customers.

[Reload3006]

My 452374 drops perfect .449 - .451 Boolits Problem is I need .452 Funny the mold says .452 dropping bigger is better as you can size them down but its pretty rough to make them grow. Lyman knows this too. I know that Lyman says that their molds will drop to size with the special alloy that they designed them for. Really How many casters are actually going to go to Midway or similar places and pay $35 for 7.5 pounds of alloy? Really Defend Lyman all you want but I got into casting to save money. Its a pleasurable pass time as well but bottom line is saving money. That is why Miha MP molds will get the remainder of my casting dollar. With Lymans #2 alloy at $4.60 a pound it won't take long to pay for a top shelf custom mold.

[Irascible]

If you read the Lyman literature that comes with the mould they state that the size is for a casting of Lyman #2. That's OK if you want a hard bullet and actually their recipe for #2 which is 9lbs of WW and 1 lb of 50-50 solder (5+% tin), will usually cast to the correct size. I had one 358429 mould that responded to WW + 3% tin.
The problem comes when you want a soft bullet, say from a HP mould, it's not going to happen. You can try Beagling or send it to HP Mould Service to enlarge the bands. I did the latter with a 429244, I had it hollow pointed and bands enlarged it works great.

[geargnasher]

I have a few good Lyman moulds (older ones) and some good Ideal moulds, but I have had 100% unuseably undersized results from Lyman in the past several years. Not only that, they have a bad habit of cutting the cavities so they're shifted slightly, which makes a sharp edge on both sides of the boolit and an overall elliptical cross-section. Combine this with undersize, and the bands have grooves in them that won't size out and lead the barrel due to gas leaks. I've fixed some of them by monkeying with the alignment pins to get the blocks shifted back so the cavity halves line up, but usually the cavities aren't cut deep enough so I have to "beagle" the mould with tape or a center punch. I swore off of Lyman moulds once I started buying custom ones for a little more money that cast and functioned like they were supposed to, with the alloy I specify, right out of the box. It's really worth it to have a tool made that does the specific job you ask with no BS.

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

Gear

I'll make the same offer to you, send me one of the Lyman's that casts too small and I'll take a look at it. I've never encounter one that casts below the nominal 3 number prefix. Even my Lyman's made as "U" for undersized cast to the nominal diameter. I would really like to see one that doesn't. I promiss I'll send it back undamaged.

Larry Gibson

[pdawg_shooter]

If anyone comes across a 311044 that drops small (as small as .302/.303) I would be glad to take it off your hands. Yes, I am a paper patcher. I size all my 30cals down to .3015/.302.

[GLL]

Let me see....an Accurate .314XXX mould throws a .314 bullet and that is good. A Lyman 429XXX thows a .429 bullet and that is bad.......I guess I don't "see".
Larry Gibson

Larry:

When you order an Accurate Mold you pick a 31-180A design for example and then specify the exact diameter you want it to drop with a specified alloy. He then cuts you a custom mold to your specs. Tom's catalog does not have a specific .314XXX mold for instance.

Jerry

[geargnasher]

Larry, I don't care whether you believe me or not, but of the moulds that I haven't tossed, sold (with full disclosure) or traded, I have kept the ones I fixed, plus a couple others. My .452664 cast .451" in both cavities with COWW + 2% tin, .4505-ish without the extra tin. Beagle offered me one he had so I bought it, it casts right at .4525" where I would expect it to, but it's an older mould. My Devastator .45 cast .449"x.450" with 50/50 alloy, about a half-thousandth larger with WW+tin. I lapped it to .453" on the major diameter and size it down to make it round. Those are the two worst ones. I had a 429421 DC that cast .428" with #2 alloy, didn't even try it with anything else. Lyman told me to use Linotype, I told them to stick it in their ear.

I tell you what, I have two moulds you need to try, and I'll send them to you. One is a 454190 DC that casts very well and makes round boolits, but drops them at .453" IIRC, it's been a couple of years since I used it. I remember casting some low-antimony boolits with it for BP in a friend's original Colt SAA that had .455" throats and they shot terribly. I haven't modified this mould in any way. The other mould is a virgin, it's a 457124?? 535-grain mould I got to replace one that I damaged trying to enlarge it. By my estimation, the cavities are shifted .002" and it will cast out of round more than .003", and it will make .456x.459" WW boolits. I'd like for you to examine it, see what I mean about the cavity halves being offset (even thought the outside of the blocks are perfectly flush), and see for yourself how it casts. I just threw it in the junk box as soon as I got it, not worth even casting with, but I WOULD like it back along with the other one.

PM me your addy and you can have a go. I wish now I had the other six or so I bought in the past few years that cast under the nominal stamping, although some of them would have made the nominal with straight Lino.

Gear

[tomme boy]

some people just seem to have the touch to make things work:roll:

[Larry Gibson]

Larry:

When you order an Accurate Mold you pick a 31-180A design for example and then specify the exact diameter you want it to drop with a specified alloy. He then cuts you a custom mold to your specs. Tom's catalog does not have a specific .314XXX mold for instance.

Jerry

I understand that, I was refering to Lyman's 3 digit prefix by using 429xxx. Perhaps Lyman should do as Tom and RCBS do and just use a 2 digit system such as 35-200-FN except my RCBS mould of that casts a .360+. Or my 44-250-K which casts a .430+ not anywhere neare .44......should I complain?

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Gear

I didn't say I didn't believe you or Tomme boy for that matter. Neither of your veracity is in question. I said I'd never found Lyman mould that cast undersize, especially when used with the specified alloy.

And yes, I do like to touch things and make them work:drinks:

PM on the way with my address, I'll be happy to take a look at both moulds.

Larry Gibson

[gandydancer]

a lyman 429xxx mold that throws a 429xxx bullet thats to small? am I missing something here?

[462]

some people just seem to have the touch to make things work:roll:

Tomme boy, that may be true. However, there is such a thing as quality control. Every Lee mould I ever purchased required that I be their quality control department. Finally, I quit and sent two of them back to Midway. I had an RCBS mould that dropped .002" skinnier than nominal . . . RCBS exchanged it.

All my Ideal and Lyman moulds are used and older, and drop no skinnier than nominal, but most drop fatter, which I like. A few of them required some TLC to get them right, though. I've never bought a new Lyman mould, so can't speak to their current quality control, but their Cast Boolit record doesn't read good and I'd never buy new.

[azrednek]

A few years ago I sent a 410610 mold to Lyman complaining about under sized castings. I got it back with two perfect castings in the mold that measured .410 along with a note saying something along the lines of needing to use Lyman's #2 alloy. I did the same thing with an RCBS 358 mold and they enlarged it before they sent it back. My usual alloy is 50/50 pure and clip-ons and a tad of tin only if necessary for a good fill. Lyman #2 alloy is way to expensive for a cheapskate like me. Lyman wont be getting any of my future business.

I complained about it at the Lyman booth at the last NRA Convention in Phoenix. The only answer I got was they were dropping the 410610. I got some song and dance about it being dropped because of a supply problem with 41 cal gas checks. I then got a short lecture about not needing gas checks if I used their #2 formula. While I was standing in their booth I opened up their latest and supposedly new loading manual. I turned it to 45, I can't recall if it was ACP or Colt. The first thing that got my attention was a listing using AL-7 powder. After I showed the listing to a Lyman rep and remarked "I haven't seen Alcan powders since the 70's". His response was something about and I'm paraphrasing, You'd be surprised how many cans of Alcan are still sitting on reloader's shelves". The rep stopped talking to me instead giving my friend a sales pitch on their muzzle loaders.

Until Lyman becomes consumer friendly the only Lyman items I'll buy are used.

[tomme boy]

According to the paper that was sent with the mold, 9lbs of WW an 1lb of 50/50 will make 10 lbs of Lyman #2.

So 14 lbs of WW, 3lbs 50/50, 3 lbs of lino.

When the bullet was still very hot, it measured 0.452" Drop it in water to cool it off the handle, it goes to 0.449" Air cool them for an hour, same thing. 0.452" hot, 0.449 cool.

Lyman has not cared what we think for a very long time. I ordered a 12 ga shotgun mold from Midway in the early 90's. No paper work came with it. I called Lyman and they said it should have the loading data page with the mold. Since it did not have it, I was to send it back to Midway for a replacement mold. Lyman bounced me around the phone for about 15 minutes. Finally, the operator there said to give her my email an she would scan a copy of the paperwork and send it to me when she got home from her computer. Later that night, I got it from her. She said the company just does not want to listen to anyone. They are right, you are wrong. They have the mentality that how long have you been doing this compared to the company.

Lyman ML's are a good firearm. Because they are not made by Lyman. That is why.

[runfiverun]

i recall this same type of thread a couple of years back about lee molds.
they were messing up group buy's, blah,blah,yaddah.
they pulled thier adds/support from here, they complained and another thread was brought up with a whole bunch of whatever's as responses they got the picture.
we aren't that many people, but i bet we buy a bunch of thier mold production.
they probably just need some downtime to get thier cherrys re-cut.

[Dschuttig]

a lyman 429xxx mold that throws a 429xxx bullet thats to small? am I missing something here?

It seems to me that the "429" is really a designation as to what caliber it is supposed to be used for. If you look at the cast bullet handbook #1 it gives you all the nominal cast diameters of all these designs, and I can assure you that almost all of them are larger than the first three digits of the mold number. I've collected lyman/ideal molds for years and have close to 190 different designs, and nearly 100% of the molds I have gotten produced in the past few years have been undersized. The best lyman molds are the ones produced under the "ideal" designation. They cast perfect size for most applications and are well made.

So, assuming that the best accuracy from a revolver comes from sizing bullets to throat diameter, who here has a 44 special or magnum with .429 throats? both of mine are a little over .431. Yours are probably to. The real problem is lyman is making molds according to specs for jacketed bullets. It seems to me that no one at lyman is a cast bullet shooter, because .431-2 diameter for 44 pistols is bullet casting 101. Just look at the drawings on some of the group buys.

[Ben]

Lyman seems to have lost touch with the typical bullet caster.

Problem is , it doesn't look like it will get any better anytime soon.
That is a shame, as 30 & 40 yrs. ago when the " old guard employees " at Lyman were still at the helm, this kind of thing was unheard of.

Lyman could come back each year with 3 or 4 of their VERY POPULAR discontinued molds. If they could get a handle on their quality control they could get back up on their feet and quickly improve their relationship with casters.

People like Mihec, Swede at NOE and Tom at Accurate , etc. communicate with us and respond to our needs by cutting molds that reflect a genuine concern for performance with cast bullets for modern day cast bullet shooters. The bean-counters at Lyman.....nope.

[stubshaft]

i recall this same type of thread a couple of years back about lee molds.
they were messing up group buy's, blah,blah,yaddah.
they pulled thier adds/support from here, they complained and another thread was brought up with a whole bunch of whatever's as responses they got the picture.
we aren't that many people, but i bet we buy a bunch of thier mold production.
they probably just need some downtime to get thier cherrys re-cut.


Next month it will be RCBS molds or the whipping boy of the month. The mold manufacturers tell you what they use to develop the size/weight of their boolits. In Lymans case it is #2 in RCBS's case it is pure lino. But because some people don't want to use that alloy and would rather use their own (WW's) which cast smaller than either of the preceding alloys and because they feel it is cheaper. They take exception to the fact that a major manufacturer will not make a mold to suit them. I refuse to by newer Lymans primarily because of issues with their diameter not being round. NOT, because the boolit may be smaller if I decide not to use the alloy they recommend.

If I want a mold to cast a specific diameter with a specific alloy then I will buy a custom mold from Veral or Dan and if they fail me I will grumble to them because it is their job to make it specifically for me.

[Ben]

In Lymans case it is #2 in RCBS's case it is pure lino.

If we survey 1,000 casters, what percentage of them use these lead alloys exclusively when they use these 2 brands of molds ? ? I'd think the answer to that question would be a very small number.

At least for the immediate future, WW's are still the most common alloy that you'll see on a casters bench ( followed by range scrap, and WW / pure lead mixtures.)

[Dschuttig]

Tried using #2 alloy also. Newer lyman 429421 came in at .4295. Problem isn't alloy, problem is those doing the drawings for the cherries don't have a clue about cast bullet accuracy. I confirmed this last year when I spoke with some folks at lyman about an old H&I sizer die. The fella was really nice, and I could tell from our talk that he was one of the guys making the decisions, but knew more about marketing and machining than cast bullet shooting.

[Ben]

but knew more about marketing and machining than cast bullet shooting


That is my exact point that I make in # 35 above.

[Sonnypie]

In Lymans case it is #2 in RCBS's case it is pure lino.

If we survey 1,000 casters, what percentage of them use these lead alloys exclusively when they use these 2 brands of molds ? ? I'd think the answer to that question would be a very small number.

At least for the immediate future, WW's are still the most common alloy that you'll seen on a casters bench ( followed by range scrap, and WW / pure lead mixtures.)

Odd man out, here.
I have a Lyman 311291 single cavity that I have used with RotoMetals Lyman #2 alloy 90/5/5
It consistently drops a .314" bullet that is 172 grains. (I size it to my needs)
I louve the bullets it makes! I don't care if it is one at a time.
Lyman mold (old) with Lyman #2 alloy. [smilie=s:

The rest is, at best, a guess at what is in it. WW (wheel weights) is in no way an alloy. At best it is a conglomeration. :popcorn:

[462]

"So, assuming that the best accuracy from a revolver comes from sizing bullets to throat diameter, who here has a 44 special or magnum with .429 throats? both of mine are a little over .431."

Well, I sure don't. My S&W Lew Horton 24 and 624 both have .432" throats. I've had to beagle an older, square lube groove Lyman 429421 to get proper fitting boolits.

"Lyman could come back each year with 3 or 4 of their VERY POPULAR discontinued molds. If they could get a handle on their quality control they could get back up on their feet and quickly improve their relationship with casters."

Now, ain't that the truth. And, if you don't believe it, check out what those old moulds are selling for, on ebay.

[Larry Gibson]

So, assuming that the best accuracy from a revolver comes from sizing bullets to throat diameter, who here has a 44 special or magnum with .429 throats?

My Colt Anaconda .44 Magnum has .429 throats. I can get away with some cast bullets at .430 but I have to size the 429640HP Devastator at .429 or it will not chamber. The .430 bullets will not slide through the throats but the .429s are a gentle push. The barrel is also .429 and it is one of the most accurate .44 Magnums I have ever had or shot. No complaints here and no foolish thoughts of reaming the throats larger.

Larry Gibson

[pdawg_shooter]

Gee Larry, aint you glad you didnt buy a Ruger?

[Ben]

Sonnypie:

WW (wheel weights) is in no way an alloy.

_____________________________________________


An alloy is a mixture or metallic solid solution composed of two or more elements

Alloying a metal is done by combining it with one or more other metals or non-metals that often enhance its properties. Looks like WW's would be an alloy.

[Dschuttig]

"I have a Lyman 311291 single cavity that I have used with RotoMetals Lyman #2 alloy 90/5/5"

Yup, just about on the money- CB handbook states as cast as .313.

429421 - As cast stated as .432.

Just as a point of interest, my alloy chart (cb handbook #3 pp. 58) shows a bullet that drops .4310 with #2 should drop .4303 with WW. That is 7/10 of 1/1000. Hardly the 3/1000 that some are implying which would be over 4x the number in the chart. My point is it's not alloy, it's a dissconect between manufacturer and end user.

Tell me none of you have ever gone to wal-mart, asked a question, and gotten a reply along the lines of: I don't know, I just work here! I think that that is the problem at lyman.

Larry- how did I know you had the one gun on earth that had a .429 throat? :) That's why I said most "probably" had larger throats. I bet if you took a survey you would find the vast majority of us have larger ones. I've never seen or heard of a ruger with .429 throats, which many of us own.

[Sonnypie]

Sonnypie:

WW (wheel weights) is in no way an alloy.

_____________________________________________


An alloy is a mixture or metallic solid solution composed of two or more elements

Alloying a metal is done by combining it with one or more other metals or non-metals that often enhance its properties. Looks like WW's would be an alloy.

Conglomeration - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conglomeration

2. a mass of miscellaneous things

Alloy - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Alloy

3. standard; quality; fineness.
7. to reduce in value by an admixture of a less costly metal.
8. to debase, impair, or reduce by admixture; adulterate.

And while WW could be loosely construed as an alloy, there is no way to tell what value it is, what purity it is.
At best it is a conglomeration.

Brings to mind hot dogs. All scraps and stuff people wouldn't normally eat, puried in a nice eatable encasement.
Love the taste, no clue what is in there. (Floor scrapings apply)

[Larry Gibson]

Gee Larry, aint you glad you didnt buy a Ruger?

Ah, I do have a Ruger...a 50th Aniversary FTBH. The throats on it are .431. My Hawes has throats of .433. Both have .429 barrels as does the Anaconda.

I've shot thousands of .429 sized bullets through the Hawes and they shoot every bit as well as .430 and .435 bullets do. I even put it into a Ransom rest once to test after reading how proper "fit" of bullet to throat made all the oversized throated .45 Colts shoot accurately. I also can't tell a nickels difference between .429, .430 and .431 sized bullets out of the Ruger either. Perhaps with a rest and a scope on the revolvers and shooting at 100+ yards I could tell a difference.

However, with me shooting and using the iron sights I just can't see any difference in accuracy out to my practical limit of 100 yards with my .44 Magnums. I size at .430 with all my standard cast bullets and they go into all my revolvers nicely. They all shoot very well that way in all 3 revovlers. I size the 429640HP at .429 so it goes in both the Ruger and the Colt. That bullet then shoots equally well in both revovlers. BTW; I don't get leading with the "undersized" bullets because I use a correct alloy and a good lube (BAC or Javelina).

"Fit" may be "king" but I think to much time and effort is spent kissing the kings rear end instead of paying attention to well known details such as alloy and correct lube with standard revolver loads.

BTW; if anyone has any "undersized" .429 cast bullets that don't "fit" your revolver send them my way, I'll gladly shoot them in my revovlers. The group is with the 44-250-K sized .429 over 9 gr Unique and is the 1st 12 shots (twice around the cylinder) at 25 yards over sand bags. I was on a break and just had to slip to the range to shoot it. As you can see the the aiming point wasn't to distinct but I was happy with the Ruger, still am:smile:

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

For the record, and in case I didn't mention it, I always cast a small run of Lyman #2 alloy before condemning a Lyman mould as undersized. I went through the BS with Lyman a few years ago with the .45 Devastator I purchased directly from them since they were backordered everywere else. I cast with certified #2 alloy and air cooled them from a very hot mould (necessary for good fill with the HP pin) and found they were still out of round and at least .001" under the spec'd .452". I got no joy from them and fixed the mould myself. Since then I keep a few pounds of #2 just for that purpose.

Another thing that bugs me about Lyman and plagued me for years shooting cast (before I found this site) was their load data. Almost without exception they use boolits sized TO groove diameter. I don't know where they got that, but it tends to cause a lot of problems. I guess their moulds and corporate philosophy is still based on the concept of casting groove sized boolits.

Oh, well. It doesn't matter so much nowdays since I can get exactly what I want elsewhere.

Gear

[Dschuttig]

Larry- I'm glad that the 429 molds work well for you. It certainly opens up some options with lyman molds. That being said, I still think that they cast a little small for most of us. I can't see where a bullet dropping at .432 and if you need to size it down to .429-30 is a bad thing.

[btroj]

My SRH sot reasonably well with .429 bullets but I grew tired of scrubbing lead from the breech end of the barrel. This was with loads from mild to wild.

I went to a .432 bullet and it no longer leads at all. Not with specials running750 for or mag loads going 1400. All with a plain base bullet.

My experience with this gun explains why I want a bullet that fits the throats snugly. That was what cured my leading problem.

Could I have solved it with various alloy changes? Quite possibly. I prefer my method as it doesn't seem to care what alloy I use now, it doesn't seem to lead with any reasonable alloy.

More than one way to skin a cat. Find what works for you.