Vetterli question

[Jjed]

Converted my 41 swiss to centerfire, made cases out of 348 win trimmed to 1.485. using Lee 41 swiss dies. after shooting this is what the case looks like with the sholder pushed forward. my question is this normal with this cartridge? the fired case's neck is .2 inches long, the resized case's neck is .245. Sorry the picture upload keeps failing, maybe someone can help me with that also. Thanks for the help on the pics, works well.
Thanks

[elk hunter]

While I've never owned or shot the 41 Swiss I'll just make the observation that early breech loaders with rimmed cases often have large or long chambers. The makers were concerned that all ammunition of the proper caliber would go in and go off, they were not concerned about reloading as no one was doing that.

If it were me I'd just size the cases enough to hold the bullet and reliably chamber , i.e. neck size, and enjoy the rifle.

[twotoescharlie]

what elk hunter said.

TTC

[curioushooter]

Fire forming is basically how you convert the case. Apparently that is how big you chamber is. On my 69/71 'Vette I did not observe this. The Lee dies pretty much were on. However, I did use 8mm Lebel brass that I cut down instead. Not sure if that matters.

[smokemjoe]

In the std. chamber I run my case lenght to 1.625, or fit to were they work through the action, The lee dies will work with a case 1 5/8 long. When you fire form the brass it will shorten about .020 so alowe for that also. All I use is 8 MM lebel brass.

[Jjed]

I'm still working on this, any and all help would be appreciated.
Jim

[Nobade]

My Lee dies make cases that don't look anything like the chamber in my 79/81. I have heard Lee turned out some die sets that weren't right, and I suspect that is what I have. That said, I don't use dies anyway. Just decap, clean, recap, throw powder charge and hand seat the bullet. They shoot great and brass lasts forever. Of course I am using black powder, the powder charge keeps the bullet from dropping too far into the case.

[midnight]

Jjed - Did you use a RCBS headed decapping pin for your fireing pin when you converted to certerfire? I have an article on how to do it around here somewhere. My brother has a Vetterli and we are considering the conversion.

Bob

[John Boy]

The Lee dies pretty much were onThe 41 Swiss Lee die set is dead nuts correct.
A good friend and gun krank was doing an article for an 1867 Vetterli ( first repeating rifle design) for The Single Shot Exchange magazine. After several conversations he had with John Lee, President, because the custom dies he ordered were wrong compared to original 41 Swiss (10.4x38) rounds ... Lee Precision made the set correct and it is now part of their regular die sets for sale

[Jjed]

Yes I used the rcbs decapping pin and made a firing pin holder from a heavy piece of leather works great.

[Yance]

Something I "discovered" between forming my first and second batches of cases for my two Vetterlis is that case length is not a "cut & dried" proposition.

Using the Lee 44-340 boolit with three crimp grooves I found that I could leave my cases about .140 longer and use the middle groove rather than the bottom one. "Short necked" cases on the right were trimmed to what was supposed to be MAX length after fireforming. Ones on the left had the length "adjusted" for the middle crimp groove. They finish the same COAL since you're restricted by the length of the cartridge elevator. The "short" ones are trimmed to 1.565", the others are 1.705. I like having a little longer neck for extra support for the boolit since most of these rifles have plenty of freebore to jump before getting to the rifleing.

[Buckshot]

...............Well at least THAT rifles' chamber HAS a neck :-) I don't intend to hijack your thread. I just wanted to show some of the weirdness that went on in the early days of development of cartridge firing rifles.

http://www.fototime.com/78436EB637633CD/standard.jpg

The whole rifle. Cute little begger, isn't it? Cartridge is the 11.15x42R Comblain, Brazilian carbine. Most others used a 52mm to 60mm long case. Bore is .433". The grooves are progreesive depth being .465" at the chamber, and at the muzzle are .454". Deep grooves, eh?

http://www.fototime.com/4EEF5793B674AA9/standard.jpg

Chamber casting: As you can see, there is no neck in this chamber. It is a straight taper from the rim, to a definate point. From this point it angles sharply down to the bore. The case ID at the end of the taper is .493" and the groove of the barrel is .465" here at the chamber.

http://www.fototime.com/34EA4235E0A4A6D/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/7C6776752B29618/standard.jpg

LEFT: The 2 cases marked "A" have had a neck, and a VERY casual neck at that, formed on the case. Those marked "B" have been fired. As you can see, the neck disappears :-) IIRC I used a 577-450 Size die to form the caseneck. RIGHT: The parent case is a Mag-Tech (CBC) 32ga brass case. I was finally forced to make myself a size die and a seater die.

http://www.fototime.com/FEB48295FDD2804/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/FB833F810B2C0FE/standard.jpg

LEFT: Ho'made size die, seater die, and shell holder. Made from the front strut rods from a '87 Chevy Celebrity :-) They were 7/8" OD and hard chromed. I KNEW I saved them for some reason! RIGHT: A couple freshly mangled cases & ready for their first firing. The Mag-Tech brass shotgun shells were originally primed with a Berdan primer. I converted them to take the #209 primer. Of course they now take large pistol primers. The white tape is there to take up a bit of windage in the chamber. They allow the case to initially expand equally. After firing the tape is removed as the case will now center itself. Subsequent firings fully form the casehead.

..............Buckshot

[Jjed]

Thanks for the help, I'm still tinkering with this, the problem im having is closing the bolt and extraction, most of the time i have to smack the bolt with my hand to extract the empty. the bore looks like new no pits or rust, as far as i can see the chamber is the same.

[Dutchman]

He also spelled his name::::


http://images15.fotki.com/v588/photos/2/28344/6456804/FV1-vi.jpg

[Nobade]

Thanks for the help, I'm still tinkering with this, the problem im having is closing the bolt and extraction, most of the time i have to smack the bolt with my hand to extract the empty. the bore looks like new no pits or rust, as far as i can see the chamber is the same.

That would lead one to believe you either have a rough chamber or you are loading your ammo to too high pressure. The cases should fall out with no resistance.

[Jjed]

11.5 gr trail boss. seems to be a light load. no marks on the extracted case.

[bkbville]

Yes I used the rcbs decapping pin and made a firing pin holder from a heavy piece of leather works great.

I'd love to see a pic of the conversion - I've stumbled on one of these and was thinking of doing the conversion...

[Nobade]

11.5 gr trail boss. seems to be a light load. no marks on the extracted case.

Depending on the bullet weight that is not a light load. Quickload says with a 350gr. bullet that is in the neighborhood of 28,000 psi. You have to watch it with Trailboss, the velocities aren't very high but the pressures spike up really fast. I would use something like IMR 4198 instead to get similar velocity with maybe half the pressure. Be careful with these old rifles out there!

[smokemjoe]

I use 12 grs. unique in all my loads.

[Jjed]

I have been told you can hand drill the bolt, but I didn't want to mess it up so I had my friend do it on his lathe. Used rcbs decapping pin and a piece of heavy leather and used the original rimfire pin as a template hand drilled the the leather for the pin and assembled. The only things changed on the rifle was removing the rim fire firing pin and drilling the center of the bolt. I also ordered a nylon firing pin holder from a guy in Montana have not tried it yet.

[Jjed]

Im using a lyman 250 gr boolit.

[Nobade]

Im using a lyman 250 gr boolit.

16,250 psi.

[Jjed]

This is the my first shots on a target with the vetterli. shoots high just as everyone told me it would. but not bad. shot @ 35 to 40 yds off hand.

[Yance]

My closest to "on" groups were shot with my M-78 that someone had removed the front blade from the base. Using the top of the gap where the blade was SUPPOSED to be as my front sight my groups were only "slightly" high @ 100 yd.

Off the Vetterli subject for a moment, is that a Garand clip full of .35-'06 in your avatar? I have a .35 Whelan barrel waiting to be screwed on one of my Garands.

[Jjed]

They are 30-06 rds.
Yance
the sharps in your avatar what make, caliber?. I have a pedersoli 45-70 and it is a tack driver with 510 gr cast.

[Yance]

Old Pedersoli "standard" rifle in .45-70. Likes the Lyman bullet designed for the Marlin 1895 over 65 gr of Goex Cartridge. 50-3X and 50-4X. Just can't seem to get that last X.

[jhrosier]

For those who are interested, here is the thread from a few years ago when I converted my Vetterli to centerfire.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=21917

Jack

[Jjed]

I had some time to tinker with the vetterli last week, turns out the chamber had a lot of dried grease or something in it, put a brush then a mop on a cleaning rod with hoppies #9, now the cases go in and extract with no problem. took it to the range @ 25 yds shot 10 rds, the group would have been just over 1 inch but for two flyers, poor rest or maybe poor shooter.

[Nobade]

Looks like you have it working pretty good!

Somewhere (could have been jhrosier's thread) I saw a clamp-on front sight that is taller than the original and allows a 100 yard zero without disturbing the original sight. That looks like a good way to go for people wanting to shoot these rifles at targets closer than 200M.

BTW, those original sights are quite good with loads using 350gr. or so boolits and black powder. I shot my rifle at our various hanging steel from 200M to 750M and it tracks exactly to the sights. It's fun ringing those far plates with the old black powder rifle when the modern tacticool guys can't hit it with their whiz bang scope sighted guns.

[Chicken Thief]

Here is what i did for a front sight:
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Vetterli/R0010683.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Vetterli/R0010610-1.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Vetterli/R0010609-1.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Vetterli/R0010606-1.jpg

[Yance]

Now if THAT ain't slick I don't know what is!!!!

[RugerFan]

Nice work!

[Jjed]

what do ya need for a site like that? it would save me a lot of time?

[Chicken Thief]

I will pop you a PB Jjed.

[Jjed]

Thanks a bunch Chicken thief.

[Chicken Thief]

I made up 4 extra when i made a new one for myself.
So if theres interest i'll do a sales thread.
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0010860.jpg

[Jjed]

Any of you need a site for the vetterli chicken thief, is your man, received mine today great piece of work.
I could have never made one this nice
Thanks again Chicken thief.

[quiver]

Count me in on that interest Chicken Thief. I've been working on loads but have been reluctant to post since I don't have any good grouping info for 100yd. The aim point is somewhere on the ground at 100. The perils of shooting a rifle designed for volley fire tactics.

For load data with a 370gr. boolit I have 29.6gr. of IMR 3031, 19.0gr. IMR4227, and 31.7gr. of Reloader 15. The 4227 load appears to be position sensitive though. I have also used 13.0gr of Accurate #7, and 14.5gr. of 2400. I want to test those two a bit more since the velocities seemed too low, again they may be position sensitive.

BTW Buckshot you did an excellent job on the .437 die I needed for this riffle. Very much exceeded my expectations.

[Jjed]

Took the vetterli out back tonite to try out chicken thief's sight, shot to point of aim @ 35 yds, shot a 5 shot group, then tried 5 more at 100yds shooting at a 18 inch steel plate I have hanging between two trees. using a crab apple tree as a rest I hit it 4 out of 5 times.
This new sight made this gun a lot of fun to shoot! once again Chicken thief great job!

[bkbville]

I picked up some 8mm Lebel and I'm looking to firm these for my Vetterli

What load do you use for fire forming the brass out to 41 swiss?

Cream of wheat?

Also do you do this with the full lebel case or cut it down some first? (they chamber in mine without cutting them down)

[RugerFan]

Where are you guys getting 8mm Lebel brass? I've seen .348 Win, but not the Lebel.

[Chicken Thief]

PRVI in Slovenia is the only firm who makes 8mm Lebel brass now.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=159963&CAT=3829

[Chicken Thief]

I picked up some 8mm Lebel and I'm looking to firm these for my Vetterli

What load do you use for fire forming the brass out to 41 swiss?

Cream of wheat?

Also do you do this with the full lebel case or cut it down some first? (they chamber in mine without cutting them down)

I did this:
Annealed neck shoulder.
Primed case.
Loaded 15 gr of fast pistol powder.
Filled the case with corn meal.
Capped of with a dullop of wax.
Fired.
Trimmed to 42mm.

[Yance]

Grsf & Sons has Lebel brass in stock. Same Privi brass as BufCo only less expensive.

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/12657

[Yance]

I did this:
Annealed neck shoulder.
Primed case.
Loaded 15 gr of fast pistol powder.
Filled the case with corn meal.
Capped of with a dullop of wax.
Fired.
Trimmed to 42mm.

I do pretty much the same only remember to separate the powder and cornmeal with 1/4 square to toilet paper. I just plug the case mouth with more TP after filling with corn meal.

Trim length is dependent on which bullet design you've decided to use. Since the Lee 44-340 has three crimp grooves you can actually trim your cases quite a bit longer and use the top or middle groove so there's more bullet in the case neck.

[Jjed]

I cut my 348 brass down first then just ran them through the die, worked for me.
The one one the left is after running through the resizing die, the other is after firing. The dies don't match the chamber. After forming I do not resize.