custom lee expander plug

[Thinktwicez71]

i have the lee 4 die 45acp carbide dies. i know they are setup for jacketed bullets . i measured my plug inside the powder thru expander die and it measures at .450 at the widest part. so that is a problem because i shoot cast and they are sized to .452 , and being resized while seating into the cases.

does anyone make custom lee expaner plugs for the powder thru expander dies ?

[popper]

What CB size is needed for your 45 bbl? If your CB is sized to .452, then seated, what is the de-seated size? You seem to say you size to .452, the plug is .450. That gives .001 for case spring-back and .002+.001=.003 for neck tension. That should not be a problem. If the CB is really being swaged by the case, try sizing larger and let the case swage to what you want. I found the case didn't swage the CB in my 40, but I may be using a harder CB than you.

[geargnasher]

Lots of times .003" total diameter reduction is too much. .002" or less works for my .45s, just be sure you're FL sizing the brass so the boolits don't turtle in the cases in the magazine under recoil and cause a Kaboom when chambered and fired.

There are several places to get them for black powder calibers, might even find one for .45 Colt that would work. I had a member here custom make several for me to solve this issue, but it was kind of a one-off deal.

IIRC Deltaenterprises or Lathesmith, maybe even Buckshot makes them, it's simple lathe work. You want the expander spud to be .001" smaller than your sized boolit diameter.

Now, I'm going to tell you a secret on how to fix what you already have. This works with Lee .45 ACP and .45 Colt PTE spuds, the other pistol calibers are too short for it to work well. Take a tapered alignment punch and flare the tip of the expander. Be careful not to overdo it, it's hardened and will crack, but you can add about .002" to it before it does, you will need less. Placing the spud tip-up on vise jaws clamped against a couple of 1/2" bolt shanks or on the end of a deep-well 3/8" drive socket placed on an anvil will give the punch tip somewhere to go. If you have a torch you can heat the sucker to a dull red just at the tip and tap the punch in there VERY carefully, it's easy to overdo if hot and you have to get the punch out pronto or it will shrink and stick to the punch as it cools. You only need the tip to be the right size, since is will self-align and the bellmouth angle of the shank will further align the spud.

Gear

[stubshaft]

Gear you can't give away all of the secrets yet. Pretty soon you'll be teaching them the secret handshake.:kidding:

[noylj]

1) Very wise to look at the expansion step. I consider this the most critical step and most seem to ignore it.
2) Measure your case before and after expansion and determine the actual case ID and the difference before and after for that diameter expander plug. Work hardened cases can spring back A LOT. Soft annealed cases may hardly spring back at all. If your like most, your case have been fired a few times and will be work hardened to some extent.
3) Many times, I use an expander die BEFORE the PTE die. The two step expansion will usually bring the case ID to at least 0.002" of my bullet diameter.
4) Since I don't size my bullets, I have gotten custom PTE plugs from Lee and semi-custom plugs for my Lyman M-die expanders.
5) Note: if you run a given case in and out of your PTE/powder measure to get the charge weight just right, that case should be resized (or at least run through the taper crimp die).
6) If your cases are like mine, a 0.450" expander plug is not sufficient for 0.452-0.453" lead bullets. The case ID tends to be 0.448-0.449" with case spring back. I have used a 0.453" expander plug successfully (i.e., an old .45 Colt expander die I had) to get a 0.451-0.452" case ID.

[imashooter2]

The Lee powder through expanders I've used will bell a case. Look at this image from their web site:

http://leeprecision.com/files/products/powderthrough.jpg

[geargnasher]

The Lee powder through expanders I've used will bell a case. Look at this image from their web site:

http://leeprecision.com/files/products/powderthrough.jpg

Bell mouthing and expanding are two different things, even though the folks at Lee Precision haven't yet discovered one needs both for loading most cast boolits.

Here's what an expander should do, it should EXPAND the case a little deeper than your boolit base will seat, and make the case cylindrical .001-2" smaller than the boolit in the entire area where the boolit will be seated. It should have a tapered shoulder to flare the case mouth. Here's a visual:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=24608&d=1282019955

Gear

[imashooter2]

Ah! My mistake, I misunderstood the question.

[Josh Smith]

i have the lee 4 die 45acp carbide dies. i know they are setup for jacketed bullets . i measured my plug inside the powder thru expander die and it measures at .450 at the widest part. so that is a problem because i shoot cast and they are sized to .452 , and being resized while seating into the cases.

does anyone make custom lee expaner plugs for the powder thru expander dies ?

Hello,

No.

You can get a Lee universal expanding die. It will put a small flare on the mouth.

In the four die set, you have the decapper/sizing die, the powder through expanding die, the seating die, and the factory crimp die.

For cast boolits, chuck the factory crimp die. It squeezes the boolits down too much.

Add the flare die in after the decapper/resizing die but before the powder through expanding die.

http://fsreloading.com/lee-universal-flaring-die-90798.html

Works real well, and can be used for any caliber you decide to cast for!

Josh

[geargnasher]

JMS, did you read the quote you quoted?

I was hoping some of the machinests would chime in, because I'd like to know who's in current production too, and I know someone here on the forum is making them on a custom basis.

Gear

[GSCSA]

I haven't had a problem using the Lee .45acp four die set and .452 cast bullets

[leadman]

The Lee Universal Expanding Die is misnamed, it should be the Lee Universal Belling Die! There is a big difference in the way the Lyman or RCBS expanders work and the Lee belling die.

I had JiminPhx make me a plug the expands the case and opens the mouth up like a Lyman M die for my 43 Mauser. Lee's die set for this cartridge has a standard expanding rod just like a convential set for an '06, etc. Ok for jacketed but there are no jacketed bullets for this cartridge!

I think he sold his lathe but others here can do the same thing.

[Josh Smith]

JMS, did you read the quote you quoted?

I was hoping some of the machinests would chime in, because I'd like to know who's in current production too, and I know someone here on the forum is making them on a custom basis.

Gear

Hi Gear,

I did read it. My response was because I know nobody makes it yet.

If someone does one day, I would definitely buy it. I use the disk thrower and it would save me a step.

I'm getting to be a tolerable machinist with the sight trade, but I don't have the machinery to turn anything that big -- yet. Might be able to hand fashion one, but nothing in quantity.

I've had visions of drilling through the large expander on the belling die, working it over, and creating a plug for the powder-through die from it. Doubt I'll get around to that anytime soon though.

What will work is if you take the powder-through die and shave some off the bottom. It bottoms out early to keep you from over-expanding the case mouth. I assume this is for liability reasons, or ease of setup for newbies.

I took it apart and was looking hard at reducing the die before ordering the expanding/belling die. Probably would have just cut the die bottom if I had a larger lathe. As is, I don't.

In other words, the die body doesn't let the expander expand to its full potential!

Regards,

Josh

P.S. The stuff in bold are observations I made after a night of study. Figure if any machinists on board decide to take this up, the info might help after being double-checked, of course! Regards, J.S.

[geargnasher]

JMS, you didn't look here: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartList.aspx?catID=18&subId=128&styleId=433

I still don't think you understand the topic. The issue is that many (most) of the Lee PTE expander spuds flare ok, but don't EXPAND THE BODY OF THE CASE enough, or deeply enough, to prevent some cast boolits from being swaged undersized when seated. Not shaved, SWAGED, particularly on the base band.

Here's a thread which discusses the issue with pics of the solutions that JimInPHX made for me on a one-off basis. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=93108

Gear

[Josh Smith]

Hi Gear,

No, I get it. We're looking at solutions from two different angles.

Because the plug on the powder-through-expanding-die continues expanding, one could turn the top down and end up with a deeper case expansion. Whether it's deep enough, I don't know. Looks like it should be for most boolits.

Thank you for the link to the expander page. Never thought of looking at TotW. I'd like deeper expansion than even the expander die is giving me, and I could probably use a 0.457 and turn it down for my .45acp.

What I said before, about putting a hole through an expanding plug, would probably solve your problem.

Josh

[geargnasher]

The problem is that the expander portion of most Lee PTE "expanders" are about 1/4" too short, sometimes more.

Gear

[Josh Smith]

Gear,

Right, I understand.

I would think that it would be a fairly simple procedure with the right fixtures to take one of these:

http://fsreloading.com/images/P/p-4510.jpg

Turn flats on the cone, and drill a hole through the middle before fitting it to a powder through expanding die.

Or, for that matter, one from TotW should work very nicely as well, and you'd not have to take the time to turn the flats onto it as it's already the correct size...

Just some thoughts.

Josh

[Jumbopanda]

I know I'm reviving an old thread here, but I recently had similar problems with my Lee PTE dies. I got terribly crooked bullets when loading .357 SIG and 10mm. After looking at the expander plugs, it became obvious that they were a little bit undersized in diameter and far too short. With those expanders, you have to rely on the bullet itself to do most of the case expanding, and that causes excessive bullet runout and possibly bullet deformation as well. I made replacements that have given me much better results. But unlike the originals, my plugs are made of relatively soft 12L14 steel rather than heat-treated steel. I don't know if this will allow them to wear out quickly, but I guess I'll check every few hundred rounds.

Notice that the .357 SIG plug on the left isn't that much longer than the original. This is because the case neck is very short and doesn't require a long plug to fully pass through it. The original was particularly bad in that it was not only short, but half its length was tapered for case flaring. The tapered section was a complete waste because if you ever tried to load .357 SIG with such a large flare, you'd have no neck tension left to hold the bullet.

The 10mm plug is much longer, and originally created a lot of friction when I tried to withdraw cases from it. That issue was solved by simply cutting a relief in the middle.

67288

[Thinktwicez71]

Very nice ! Must be a good feeling making your own parts when needed . thumbs up

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Xparent Skyblue Tapatalk 2

[deltaenterprizes]

I can make some expander plugs now that the weather has warmed up and I am finished school.

[Case Stuffer]

Question for those who are having boolits swaged down by the case?

How soft / hard are your boolits and what dia. are they?

Please note I said swaged not shaved.

Take a case and expand / bellnormal ,insert and seat boolit but do not crimp or even remove the flair. Extract the boolit with an inrtai puller ,measure the boolit and see if it was swaged.

I have loaded massive quanities of cast boolits and have never had the case to swage the boolits. On the other hand a case will shave the boolit is it starts crooked , and a roll crimp or even a taper crimp can swage the boolits if not adjusted correctly.

[Jailer]

If you use Lee powder through expanders you will encounter the problem at some point. I had to replace the expanders in my 45 and 9mm dies.

[1bluehorse]

I've never been a big fan of the Lee expanding plug (Ka-Chunk)...lately I've been using RCBS dies and think their expanders are a better "mousetrap", BUT.....they are for the most part undersized also for "oversize" cast...measured with a micrometer...the worst is the one for my 44mag, measured .4252 (***)....(I size to .431+ish) the 45 colt is .4497 (close enough for .452 bullets) the 357 measures ..3550....(.358 size bullets) so in my estimation the 44 is way undersized and 357 a bit undersized...think I'll contact RCBS..