Accuracy

[45 2.1]

A St. Patricks day supplement. Here is a very good target showing a three leaf clover:

[Lloyd Smale]

holy chit! thats one shootin 4570 levergun youve got there and the operator cant be to shabby either. Kind of makes you chuckle when you hear that micro groves wont shoot cast!!!

[Uncle Grinch]

Looks great.... the luck of the Irish is showing through.

Mighty fine shooting!!

[9.3X62AL]

A 45-70 lever gun shooting into the "high .1's". Naw, Microgroove can't shoot cast worth beans.

Another killing shot on that urban legend.

[Dale53]

I examined that target on my computer VERY-Y-Y-Y carefully. Saw NO evidence of powder burns whatsoever:-D :-D :-D

Dale53

[jthomastreadwell]

It looks more like a valintines thang to me .

[3sixbits]

Where does a Man buy a paper punch like that?

[45 2.1]

Where does a Man buy a paper punch like that?

The rifle can be bought from Marlin, the knowledge on how to get that you get from someone willing to teach you how.

[VTDW]

Where does a Man buy a paper punch like that?

:mrgreen: :drinks: :mrgreen:

[3sixbits]

"Where does a Man buy a paper punch like that?" I've heard of self inking stamps before, but that's got to be the first paper punch I've seen (using bullet lube) that's self lubing, NEAT!!!! VTDW: egged me on!

[AZ-Stew]

Please re-photograph and re-post with target backed by green paper if you're gonna call it "Irish".

(Nice shootin'!)

Regards,

Stew

[Shiloh]

Kind of makes you chuckle when you hear that micro groves wont shoot cast!!!

Is this the same type barrel that I have on my Marlin Mod 39A .22 LR?
Looks like about 8 really fine Grooves??

Outstanding group by the way.

Shiloh

[44man]

I can't comment because I know 45 2.1 knows exactly what he is doing and the group does not surprise me at all.
He has designed a great boolit for me but sadly, the weather has kept me from the range. It shoots great at 200 yd's but I need to get to 500 meters. I only hope he is not angry with me for not posting results yet.
OK, I have to say it, that is fantastic to the extreme. Nice work.
Guys, when he talks, listen to him!

[**oneshot**]

I think your bullets are warping as they come out of the barrel! No, seriously that is a group that any shooter would be proud of, any day, any caliber, any gun. At least I would be. great shooting!

[hunter64]

I had a 1886 lever in 45-70 that would do that also. 400+ grn cast from an old lyman mold and I would index the bullets to the chamber and all bullets were exactly the same grn of weight. I would make 100 or so and keep about 30-40 and the rest went back into the pot. IMR 3031 and at 100 yards I could shoot 10 shots and my worst group was 7/8 of an inch. It totally freaked people out at the range. They would literally sit and watch me shooting to make sure I wasn't pulling there legs. I could line up 10 pop cans on the top of the board and shoot them off one at a time off handed. I won lots of cast bullet matches at 200 yards with that rifle. It was destroyed in a home fire about 15 years ago and I still think about it. Manufactured in 1886 the first year of production and I could only dream of what it would be worth today. Great shooting there.

[44man]

Who said the 45-70 is dead????

[BAGTIC]

How does it happen? Well (1) it was only a three shot group; (2) it was only one group. Besides the original comment was that jacketed bullets are almost always more accurate, not always. Miracles do happen and a single swallow does not a summer make.

[44man]

The only Marlin I know of that will not shoot good is the .44 mag. I recently got rid of the .44, then found a 30-30 at the store on sale. I wanted the 45-70 stainless guide gun but the price was over double.
I have my Browning BPCR that I no longer shoot so someday, yeah, someday I will try smokeless in it. I have a ton of molds for it.
I just have too much to do with revolvers since I hunt with them only so rifles kind of sit. Even the 30-30 might never be shot at a deer. It will never see a "J" bullet!

[Doc Highwall]

Nice group 45 2.1, now what was the load?

[45 2.1]

Nice group 45 2.1, now what was the load?

Reference this thread and PM BABore about that. I will say that it is not hard at all (once you learn how) to keep most 45-70 rifles under 1/2 MOA.

[BABore]

IIRC it was around 50-52 grs of H322 with a Federal 210M match primer. Alloy was 50/50 waterdropped.

And no, I can't shoot that kind of group every day with 420 grain boolit at 1,800 fps from an 8 lb scoped Marlin. I have several other groups, from different outings, that are similar. The gun and load are capable, but the stars must be aligned just right for me to hold the gun consistently.

[felix]

Pat, my wife, shot an offhand group (just about as close) for joining the "clover leaf club" at the Colt's 50 foot indoor range in Hartford. HG68,3.5BE was the standard load of the day. Gun was a warmed over 1911, prolly a genuine Colt initially set up by either Dinan or Clark, as most target guns were. Circa 1975. ... felix

[44man]

IIRC it was around 50-52 grs of H322 with a Federal 210M match primer. Alloy was 50/50 waterdropped.

And no, I can't shoot that kind of group every day with 420 grain boolit at 1,800 fps from an 8 lb scoped Marlin. I have several other groups, from different outings, that are similar. The gun and load are capable, but the stars must be aligned just right for me to hold the gun consistently.
Not to be done "on demand" like a few have said. We are just animals that shake and quiver. Yet it is proof of what the gun can do even if we are a pile of jello. To "hold" a group only means we did well and the gun out shot us.
Personally I don't care if you shot 100 groups like that, one is enough.
Groups vary day to day depending on conditions and the crazy loose nut behind the gun.
You get to tell after a while.

[Doc Highwall]

I have shot groups like that with my Marlin 1895 that I shortened the barrel to 16.5", but that was with a Remington 405 grain jacketed bullet over Varget and a Fed 210 primer.

[44man]

Pat, my wife, shot an offhand group (just about as close) for joining the "clover leaf club" at the Colt's 50 foot indoor range in Hartford. HG68,3.5BE was the standard load of the day. Gun was a warmed over 1911, prolly a genuine Colt initially set up by either Dinon or Clark. ... felix
I had the "clover leaf" off hand at 100 yards with my .44. Also with revolvers from a rest. But to claim all the time will make me a liar, it just can't be done.
I have shot 1/2" groups at 50 yards with a 1911 but please don't ask me to do it again. I have NEVER done it again.
We are junk but the guns can shoot. I do not need anyone to show ten groups.

[felix]

Jim, a one hole group doesn't qualify. It HAS to be a well defined clover leaf, or at least heart like. Pat's group was performed in front of at least 5 clover-leaf members with a gun given to her just for the occasion. Her 3 slow-fire shots were in the black on the slow-fire NRA official target. ... felix

[Voodoocld]

Have you been able to recreate it in the past 6 years?

[BABore]

Have you been able to recreate it in the past 6 years?

Several times. Have one a bit smaller as well, but it doesn't look as perty.

[felix]

An intentional clover leaf structure is pure luck in just about any situation, except with BR match guns. In my case, it would be pure luck anytime at any range and with any gun. ... felix

[44man]

I love you guys. But I just go with averages. A 1" group one time and a 1/2" the next will let me say 3/4". But not set in stone.
Some days I see a nice round dot with my Ultra Dot but the next it is a star or some goofy looking thing that I can't center. Same with open sights now.
My biggest enemy is ME and my age. Sometimes I shake bad and I spilled my coffee on the keyboard this morning, ruined it. I tried to clean it but had to go buy a $10 keyboard. Like a gun, it types better then I can.
It is not luck, it is know how and when it comes together. I trust you with one group because we are still half blind, shaky piles of flesh.
You might not duplicate it all the time but even a few more like it shows it is just you and the gun will shoot.
That group shows the best in the load, the shooter and the gun. It is super and I refuse to ask for 10 more in a row like it.
Felix is pulling my leg. I think he could shoot a four leaf clover if he wanted to.

[dverna]

Look. 3 shot groups only tell you if the load/gun are good IF they are repeatable. Let's face it, there are a lot of "wallet groups" that look great until you learn the 10 round group and it is over 2".

And this is where we take into account the veracity of the person. MOST people lie about good they (or their guns/loads) shoot. It is natural for most people to bend the truth when you see groups like the one posted above and the poor ******** wonders. "what is my problem?"

There are guys here who you can trust and if they say, "I can shoot groups like that with this gun and load pretty often" - you can believe it. But if they are honest, they will tell you that some luck is involved. If it was "normal", they would shoot at least 5 or preferably 10 shot groups.

I have a difficult time believing a Marlin lever action is a .5 MOA rifle with any load. By that I mean the average of 5 - 5 shot groups. I have half a dozen lever actions and none come close - even with jacketed bullets.

[mpmarty]

Agree 100% My Marlin '95 works like a remote control chain saw to trim limbs off of trees on our place after a good snow when they bend and "green tree fracture" from the weight. I find I can do as well with 350gr Ranch Dogs as I can with my 405gr RCBS boolits and they kick softer. I use 2400 and 3031 exclusively on 45/70s.

[jonp]

Not to be done "on demand" like a few have said. We are just animals that shake and quiver. Yet it is proof of what the gun can do even if we are a pile of jello. To "hold" a group only means we did well and the gun out shot us.
Personally I don't care if you shot 100 groups like that, one is enough.
Groups vary day to day depending on conditions and the crazy loose nut behind the gun.
You get to tell after a while.
You got that right. I think I've had one group like that with a 308 and 110gr Silvertips I found in a yard sale. I showed everyone I knew that target.
It's a darn good accomplishment and something to be proud of. Congrats!!

[44man]

I have episodes where a fork will barely find my mouth it shakes so bad. Best to lock my arm against the table and take my mouth to the fork! :lol:
This morning my hands are dead steady. I have testing to do with lubes but have none loaded yet and it is going to rain so today's calm hands will go to waste.
I am able to hold on a water bottle off hand at 100 but there are days I put the gun up to see it going all over and just go to a rest.
Then the days my eyes look like there is a cloud in front. Don't get old, it is bad.
I have never needed a string of groups and have been able to work a load with 3 shot groups, 5 at the most. Then the average of that load over time will continue to be small groups from my revolvers. I shot some 10 shot groups and just had one larger ragged hole with all shots touching so I consider the extra 5 shots a waste.
It is confidence in the gun and I know what it will do so if I put the dot on a deer even at 120 yards, I know the boolit will go there. Any further testing is just testing me at the time and I can turn to junk day to day.
The real proof is when friends come over and I hand them my revolver. They hit small targets every shot, turn to me and say "that is amazing."
I stand by what I say, if a gun is not accurate, nobody can shoot it and will never "luck" into anything. You will never improve yourself. The most important thing with shooting is to have the boolit go to the sights EVERY time no matter where the sights are.
Accuracy comes from your loading bench. Sit and stare at the darn bench and think. None of us are better shots then another, it is only what you shoot and keep repeating over and over hoping for a good group. That is luck!
A good example is the .22. You need to find what shoots, most ammo is junk today. Notice the different sound from each shot and how many just don't go off.

[41 mag fan]

A St. Patricks day supplement. Here is a very good target showing a three leaf clover:

Nice group you got there! I'm hoping someday to see my 45-70's do this at 100yrds. I keep plugging along playing with loads, someday I'll come up with a good combo!


IIRC it was around 50-52 grs of H322 with a Federal 210M match primer. Alloy was 50/50 waterdropped.

And no, I can't shoot that kind of group every day with 420 grain boolit at 1,800 fps from an 8 lb scoped Marlin. I have several other groups, from different outings, that are similar. The gun and load are capable, but the stars must be aligned just right for me to hold the gun consistently.

Babore, was you using a filler on this?

[BABore]

Nice group you got there! I'm hoping someday to see my 45-70's do this at 100yrds. I keep plugging along playing with loads, someday I'll come up with a good combo!



Babore, was you using a filler on this?

Yes!

Hodgdon H322

[HARRYMPOPE]

Reference this thread and PM BABore about that. I will say that it is not hard at all (once you learn how) to keep most 45-70 rifles under 1/2 MOA.

Pure and simple not true.Enter a match and prove it.

Lets see the group before and the groups after on the same paper.