Ruger #3 - 45-70 questions

[Char-Gar]

It has been 45 years since I have shot any black powder in a cartridge rifle. I think it is about time.

I have a Ruger 3 (45-70) in the safe doing nothing that might be just the ticket for a fun BP rifle. I do have some questions...please pardon me if they are totaly stupid as I am way out of my field here.

First the rifle questions:

1) How do these Ruger 3s work with BP?

2) I am looking for a barrel mounted sight of the old buckhorn/sliding staff kind on old Winchesters. Both Smith and Buffalo Arms (Ukranian) makes these kinds of sights. Anybody know which one would be best on the #3 for my purposes?

Second the load questions:

1) All of my molds are in the 350 to 405 grains range and are gas check designs. Any problems using gas checks with BP and will that elimiate the need for an over powder wad?

2) What would be a proper powder charge?

3) Do you use a long drop tube a compression die or both?

4) Alloys? 1-20 or 1-30 or what?

5) What would be the upside and downside of placing a priming charge of 3/3031 under the black?

6) I have a big supply of Remington 9.5 Magnum primers. Would these be suitable?

General throughts:

I don't give a whit (whatever a whit is) for being traditional or Old Westie. I am just looking for a fun plinking rifle, that is light weight and could be used for hunting at 100 to 200 yards.

This light weight #3 can kick like a mule and that is why I don' want to use any heavy 500 grain bullets.

I am open to any and all input.

[SharpsShooter]

1) All of my molds are in the 350 to 405 grains range and are gas check designs. Any problems using gas checks with BP and will that elimiate the need for an over powder wad?

Yes, that will work fine. Be sure to use a BP lube

2) What would be a proper powder charge?

Enought to fill the case to the base of the bullet when seated to the depth you need (60-65gr typically).

3) Do you use a long drop tube a compression die or both?

I use both, but you can get by with just compression.

4) Alloys? 1-20 or 1-30 or what?

Either is fine as is straight WW

5) What would be the upside and downside of placing a priming charge of 3/3031 under the black?

Less fouling is the norm with up to 10% of the charge weight in smokeless.

6) I have a big supply of Remington 9.5 Magnum primers. Would these be suitable?


Those will work nicely.

General throughts:

I don't give a whit (whatever a whit is) for being traditional or Old Westie. I am just looking for a fun plinking rifle, that is light weight and could be used for hunting at 100 to 200 yards.

This light weight #3 can kick like a mule and that is why I don' want to use any heavy 500 grain bullets.


A 530gr Lyman 457125 with 55gr of goex Cartridge is very pleasant in lightweight Trapdoor Carbines.

I am open to any and all input.

Hope this helps ya along.

SS

[August]

It has been 45 years since I have shot any black powder in a cartridge rifle. I think it is about time.

I have a Ruger 3 (45-70) in the safe doing nothing that might be just the ticket for a fun BP rifle. I do have some questions...please pardon me if they are totaly stupid as I am way out of my field here.

Number 3's are the bee's knees. I've owned two and have one left. Wouldn't part with it fer nothin'.

First the rifle questions:

1) How do these Ruger 3s work with BP?

2) I am looking for a barrel mounted sight of the old buckhorn/sliding staff kind on old Winchesters. Both Smith and Buffalo Arms (Ukranian) makes these kinds of sights. Anybody know which one would be best on the #3 for my purposes?

Second the load questions:

1) All of my molds are in the 350 to 405 grains range and are gas check designs. Any problems using gas checks with BP and will that elimiate the need for an over powder wad?

No problems. Yes, overpowder wad is there to prevent erosion of bullet base.

2) What would be a proper powder charge?

Powder must fill case to bottom of bullet. Try something in the range of 63-65 grains for starters. If that requires too much compression, then back off.

3) Do you use a long drop tube a compression die or both?

I use both, but I'm after every last tenth of a minute of angle. You can get a way with both, either, or neither. Just be sure the powder fills the case to bottom of bullet. Best solution for plinking/newcomer is to use bullet seating to slightly compress the powder.

4) Alloys? 1-20 or 1-30 or what?

I use 1/30 but heard that hunters prefer the harder alloy for penetration purposes.

5) What would be the upside and downside of placing a priming charge of 3/3031 under the black?

Upside: Less fouling. Downside: More recoil and report -- also, you are way out, on your own if anything blows up. There is a published deplex load using 4759 in the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual -- 10% priming charge with 90% black powder.


6) I have a big supply of Remington 9.5 Magnum primers. Would these be suitable?

Yup.

General throughts:

I don't give a whit (whatever a whit is) for being traditional or Old Westie. I am just looking for a fun plinking rifle, that is light weight and could be used for hunting at 100 to 200 yards.

I'm with you. There can't possibly be a better rifle/cartridge for the job.

[montana_charlie]

2) I am looking for a barrel mounted sight of the old buckhorn/sliding staff kind on old Winchesters. Both Smith and Buffalo Arms (Ukranian) makes these kinds of sights. Anybody know which one would be best on the #3 for my purposes?
The ladder sights on Sharps-pattern rifles need a tapped hole for the mounting screw (which holds down the front of the sight), and a dovetail for the 'base'. The base brackets the rear of the sight and provides a surface for the ladder to rock on. Drifting the base is how you set the windage, and the sight pivots on that front screw.

The Smith's sights (and the Ukranians labeled for Winchester) do not appear to have that 'base'. Therefore, it seems to only need a dovetail for the front of the sight to mount in...thus eliminating the need for a tapped hole.

If all your barrel has is a dovetail, this is probably the sight for you...if it comes with the right dovetail size.

I have a Smith's globe on my Sharps, so I can say that they do nice work. But it would be my guess that you'll be happy with either of the brands you mentioned.

Your opinion may differ, but I doubt that you'd find the 'extra long range' offerings to be much more beneficial than the standard ladder height.
CM

[Dale53]

I have loaded black powder cartridge rifles, and competed, for many years.

I also have a Ruger #3 (rather newly acquired).

If you want to have fun without a lot of aggravation, use duplex loads. My regular duplex load is based on a case full of Black powder (with the bullet just touching at the seating depth for THAT bullet). Simply reduce the black powder load by 10% weight and load 10% by weight of your choice of smokeless. I prefer RL-7 (is a medium burning rifle powder and measures well - 4759 is good but doesn't measure well).

I made a duplex powder measure out of a salvaged MEC shotgun press and some square aluminum tubing. You can also set up two regular powder measures (one to drop the smokeless and one for the black powder).

You should use a black powder lube (I use Emmert's home mix - 50% Pure Natural Beeswax, 40% Crisco, and 10% Canola Oil. All measurements by volume and melted in a double boiler). Do NOT overheat the lube. The double boiler insures that you will not overheat.

Size and deprime your case, re-cap and drop the smokeless next to the primer, then drop your black powder. I use a compression die when duplexing (you don't need to use a drop tube). I recommend the use of Goex 2F and compress up to .250" (I start testing with zero compression and add two grains at a time and let the target tell me when to stop). Do NOT compress the powder with a soft lead bullet. You will damage the bullet if you try to compress the powder with the bullet. I recommend 30/1 lead/tin but others do well with WW's.

This information is only for use with a strong actioned rifle.

Duplex loads will allow you to literally shoot all day without use of a blow tube or wiping or any of those other aggravations. NRA Silhouette competitions require straight black but if you are just shooting for fun or hunting duplex is the way to go.

I and a number of friends have shot duplex for years and many thousands of shots.

You WILL get a bit more velocity using duplex. You can roughly figure that each grain of smokeless is worth three of black. However, pressures are well within practical levels.

The above is not necessarily recommended but is what I and many others have used for years. The Canadian black powder LONG RANGE competitors have long used as much as 20% duplex. For fun shooting and hunting I have never seen the need to go over 10% (you may find that less smokeless will work, also). I have just always used 10%.

In my 40/65 Sharps and Browning, I get 1350 fps with a 422 gr bullet.

NOTE:
It is necessary to treat a rifle shot with duplex just like you would a black powder rifle. It must be cleaned properly as soon as possible after shooting. I normally clean at the range right after shooting. A good black powder solvent greatly speeds up the process.

De-cap the cases on the range and drop in a milk jug 3/4 filled with water with a couple of squirts of DAWN dishwashing lubricant. They'll be mostly cleaned by the time you get home. At home, shake the cases in the jug, then drain the water off and rinse and shake several times in hot tap water. I then dump them in a plastic collander and shake most of the water off. I then throw them in the tumbler while still damp and tumble for an hour or so. The cases will be clean and shining for the next reload.

Dale53

[NickSS]

What was recommended above is right on target. The Ruger #3 is a great rifle for this purpose. I had one in 45-70 years ago but I sold it for something else. I have loaded black powder in my various 45-70s for over 20 years and use a drop tube and compression die only for target loads that I am trying to get the very top accuracy from. Using a duplex load works very well to keep fouling down. As most of my BP loads are for target use I only Use straight black and a blow tube but I have used duplex loads in the past. RL 7 is a good powder but actually any medium speed smokeless works. One I used due to haveing on hand was H335. Six gr of it and 38gr of FFG makes a good load with a 400 gr bullet. Go to 60 gr of FFG with a 300 gr one and just seat the slug normally and let it compress the load. If you do not have a drop tube for putting the powder in the case just put the smokeless in then black and place a tray full of charged cartridges on top of a vibrating tumbler for a few seconds and watch the powder settle. Then seat the bullets. The gas check bullets you have will work fine and will aliminate the need for a over powder wad. The gas check will also scrape powder fowling out the bore. With a good BP lube, duplex loads, and gas checks you should be able to shoot all day without cleaning. I do recommend wiping your bore out with a damp patch or two before you go home. This will get rid of most fouling and make it easier to clean the rifle at home. I found that with duplex loads I had to use a nitro bore cleaner to get my rifle realy clean.

[floodgate]

Dale:

"The above is not necessarily recommended but is what I and many others have used for years. The Canadian black powder LONG RANGE competitors have long used as much as 20% duplex. For fun shooting and hunting I have never seen the need to go over 10% (you may find that less smokeless will work, also). I have just always used 10%."

I have heard the 10% (and 20%) figures many times and many places, but I have a concern about them. First, are we talking replacing 10% (20%) of the BP VOLUME by an equivalent VOLUME of smokeless? Given the much higher energy density of smokeless, this would seem to be a recipe for trouble, if one is using compressed loads that are already at the maximum for BP.

If on a WEIGHT basis - i.e., replacing a 70 gr. BP charge with 63 grs. of Black, plus 7 grs. WEIGHT of, say 3031, which is about 85% the weight per unit volume as compared to BP (from some older volumetric conversion tables), the situation would be even more chancy, especially in the older rifles designed around Black Powder.

Or am I missing something here?

floodgate

[Dale53]

Floodgate;
I stated above and I repeat it here. Replace 10% by weight of black powder with 10% by weight of smokeless. I also stated in RED that only strong actions are suitable.

I would have no problems with using these loads extensively in any Class Two or Three (Ken Waters rating) rifle in 45/70 or 40/65 (the only loads I have used extensively). Hundreds if not thousands of American and Canadian shooters have used these loads for decades. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook has a similar load in it for 45/70 (I don't have my copy here, but I believe that it also has pressure data).

You first need to learn your case capacity when the bullet of choice is seated (different brand cases have different capacities). If the case will only hold 63 grains by weight of black, as a for instance, then reduce it by 10% by weight (this will give you 57 grains of black) then add 6 grains of smokeless (I suggest RL-7 or 4759).

I will assure you that this load has much less pressure than any of the heavier loads of pure smokeless designated as "Only for Marlin Lever actions or Ruger Single Shots" in the various loading manuals.

It is a piece of cake for a strong rifle. Of course, use what YOU prefer. I do.

Dale53

[The Double D]

5) What would be the upside and downside of placing a priming charge of 3/3031 under the black?

I am open to any and all input.

Back in the olden days when there was only GOEX, filthy nasty GOEX, duplexing was needed to cut down on fouling.

Now you have different brands of cleaner burning powder to choose from, even with GOEX and you realy don't need a duplex load.

But if you really realy think you must duplex definitely don't use 3031.

Old habits are hard to break and all to many BP shooters buy black based on price alone. Now that you have a choice you can experiement and learn what the old timers knew, not all blackpowders are the same, any more than all smokeless powders are the same. Different burn rates and applications.

Time to have fun.

[floodgate]

Dale:

OK, 10% smokeless, weight by weight; that seems acceptable in a good action. I think I'll pass on it in my old Ballard No. 5 "Pathetic", though.

DD:

Sorry! I was NOT recommending 3031; I just picked it out of a chart that compared densities (weight per unit volume) of various smokeless powders as compared with Black.

I'm still using some of the old GOEX from the 1970's; I need to get up to speed with Swiss or the new GOEX's, which I understand are MUCH better than the old.

Thanks. floodgate

[9.3X62AL]

Mostly out of curiosity--I tried some Lee 405's in 30/1 atop 55.0 grains of Goex 2F (slight compression) with a sandwich wad of cardboard/Wonder Wad/cardboard, and Wonder Lube in the grooves. Fouling wasn't bad at all, and the rifle produced its best accuracy EVER--5 shotters ran 1.25" to 1.5" at 100 yards. Maybe that Government ballseat in the Ruger #1 barrel does well with The Holy Black and lead/tin alloys. Velocities ran about 1100 FPS, IIRC.

[Phil]

I've seen an article on the Canadian BP matches, I think in the second NRA loading book. It had a picture of a No.3 with modern target sights. Neat looking little rig.

Cheers,

Phil

[Dale53]

MY favorite Black Powder is Swiss. I normally use 1½ in my 40/65's. However, even tho' Swiss is one fine powder, I need to use a blow tube when shooting more than a couple of shots. Some of the top long range shooters are wiping each shot in competition and that IS one way of handling the fouling.

However, for just fun shooting and hunting I definitely favor duplex loading.

Lyman's 46th Edition loading manual shows Lyman 457125 (weighs 464 grs cast of Lyman #2 alloy) ahead of 6.1 grs of 4759 and 53.9 grs of FFG (Goex) for a velocity of 1261 fps and a pressure of 16,500 psi.

This is in the Ruger #1 and #3 area of the manual. This is a compressed load.

Dale53

[w30wcf]

Dale 53,
Excellent info on duplex loads. Historically speaking, back in the mid 1890's when smokeless powder made its debut in the U.S., the gun cranks found that DuPont No. 1 Bulk smokeless worked great in a duplex load to keep b.p. fouling to a minimum.

I have used the 6.0 / 4759 + 56.0 / FFG with the 457193 (420 grs.) recipe shown in the Lyman Cast bullet Handbook with good success in a Trapdoor Springfield.
They show that load at 1,259 f.p.s. / 13,700 CUP. By comparison, they also show the standard 70 / FFG loading developing 1,268 f.p.s. and 16,400 CUP.

Some references indicate that 18,000 CUP is the practical limit for trapdoors while Hodgdon & Alliant show smokeless loads developing up to 24,000 CUP for use in Trapdoor Springfields. Personally, I'll stick with the 18,000 CUP threshold.

w30wcf