Primers

[44man]

Let me see if I get this right.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/
This validates my claims of boolit movement before ignition.

[Breadman03]

It makes me wonder how many "kabooms" can be attributed not to an accidental overcharge, but to a second spike in pressure from the primer popping the bullet out of the cartridge before powder ignition occurs.

[44man]

It makes me wonder how many "kabooms" can be attributed not to an accidental overcharge, but to a second spike in pressure from the primer popping the bullet out of the cartridge before powder ignition occurs.
Yes and the cylinder gap saving so many from the gas venting with the revolver.

[subsonic]

Could you test for this by making a "squib" with only a primer and see if it unseats the boolit? Or would you need some COW or something in there to act as "powder"?

[44man]

Could you test for this by making a "squib" with only a primer and see if it unseats the boolit? Or would you need some COW or something in there to act as "powder"?
Don't need to do that. I have had boolits and the full powder charge blown well into the barrels so I needed a brass punch to remove the boolit.
Try it once with an empty case and just a primer.

[beagle]

Well, I can tell you for a fact that I've recovered 311008 bullets fired from a .30 Carbine Ruger there had heavy indentations on the base from 2400 and WC820 so it gets a pretty good slap to indent the bullet base./beagle

[jwp475]

Let me see if I get this right.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/
This validates my claims of boolit movement before ignition.




Don't need to do that. I have had boolits and the full powder charge blown well into the barrels so I needed a brass punch to remove the boolit.
Try it once with an empty case and just a primer.



You have claimed that a magnum primer in a full charger load in the 44 mag will push the bullet out of the case before the powder ignites.
That is not what this articles states, the following is a quote from the link that you posted




Literature from some propellant manufactures often says that their products do not require Magnum primers. This is perceived as a good thing because Magnum primers are made in smaller quantities and require more chemicals; therefore, they are more expensive. However, I had to take a different view, one based on real-world issues.


We tested loads at both maximum normal pressures and at the starting loads (some labs calculate start loads—we shot them). Standard primers caused no ignition issues at the max load but posted higher extreme variations in pressure and velocity in the lower pressure regimes of the start loads. In extreme cases, the start loads produced short delayed firings—probably in the range of 20 to 40 milliseconds but detectible to an experienced ballistician. Switching that propellant to a Magnum primer smoothed out the performance across the useful range of charge weights and completely eliminated the delays.


If I’ve recommended a Magnum primer in reloading data I’ve developed, it’s because my lab results show it’s needed.

Notice this quote is talking about start loads with some not all powders and a non magnum primer, not a mag primer, also it is only a 20 to 40 millisecond delay something that only an experienced ballistician would notice

[Bwana]

jwp475,
I think that he is referring to this part of the article:
"You can have too much primer. When the output gas volume of the primer approaches that of the cartridge case, sometimes special handling is required. I remember when CCI was working with some experimental primers for 9mm Luger, and we started seeing odd time-pressure curves on the computer. Instead of the normal single peak, we saw two. One QA tech commented that it looked like the dual humps of a Bactrian camel.
It was a classic case of high gas volume but too little temperature. The primer’s extra gas unseated the bullet while still trying to light off the main charge, producing one peak. Then the bullet retarded as it engaged the rifling, creating the second peak. Although a shooter would never notice this in a production firearm, that double hump was worrisome, and we abandoned that mix."

[jwp475]

jwp475,
I think that he is referring to this part of the article:
"You can have too much primer. When the output gas volume of the primer approaches that of the cartridge case, sometimes special handling is required. I remember when CCI was working with some experimental primers for 9mm Luger, and we started seeing odd time-pressure curves on the computer. Instead of the normal single peak, we saw two. One QA tech commented that it looked like the dual humps of a Bactrian camel.
It was a classic case of high gas volume but too little temperature. The primer’s extra gas unseated the bullet while still trying to light off the main charge, producing one peak. Then the bullet retarded as it engaged the rifling, creating the second peak. Although a shooter would never notice this in a production firearm, that double hump was worrisome, and we abandoned that mix."



That is a clear case of over ignition which can cause a change in burn rate (faster burn)



John Feamster did an experiment he describes in the Precision Shooting Reloading Guide (Precision Shooting, Pub., 1995). He loaded .308 Win with both IMR 4895 and IMR 4064 (under 168 grain MatchKings and fired in and M1A, I believe) to several specific velocities. At 2300 fps he needed more 4895 than 4064, suggesting the 4895 was the slower powder (if you assume identical energy content). At 2400 fps the charge weights were the same (within .1 gr., IIRC). At 2500 fps more 4064 was required than 4895, suggesting the 4064 was now the slower powder. So the rate of change in burn rate with pressure was less for 4064 than for 4895. No wonder it's reputation as a .30 caliber match powder is good with that higher immunity to pressure changing conditions.



Some days it's all about the ignition characteristics.

[felix]

Not some days, ALL days. ... felix

[Dale53]

Thanks for the reference material from CCI-Speer's Allan Jones. About the best information I have seen on modern primers.

Dale53

[429421Cowboy]

I agree with the article on principle because he supports his with science, i support mine with the facts i've seen myself. I also agree with .44man, his information is always sopt on and i know many shooters that feel revolver accuracy is affected by the projectile leaving the case before the charge is ignited. This however is the first time i've heard of them causing dangerous pressure spikes, not that i want to speculate on SEE, but it would tend to create a perfect storm.... And if you were wondering, a standard LPP will seat a .44 boolit flush with the forcing cone on a Ruger...

[a.squibload]

In the 70's I saw a friend snap the hammer on his 44 SBH, nothing happened.
He was about to cock it again and I stopped him for a check.
No powder in the case, boolit lodged part way down the barrel.
Not sure mag or non-mag primer but it definitely had enough pressure.

[jwp475]

In the 70's I saw a friend snap the hammer on his 44 SBH, nothing happened.
He was about to cock it again and I stopped him for a check.
No powder in the case, boolit lodged part way down the barrel.
Not sure mag or non-mag primer but it definitely had enough pressure.

NO doubt about that, with no powder in the case the primer will most certainly push the bullet from the case and into the barrel. Remember the CCI indoor plastic practice bullets, they were propelled with only a primer.


This is something that I have a problem with and have never ever heard of such except from 44man



Don't need to do that. I have had boolits and the full powder charge blown well into the barrels so I needed a brass punch to remove the boolit.
Try it once with an empty case and just a primer.

Unless the powder is wet the powder is going to ignite, even with a 20 to 40 millisecond delay as the article points out

[nicholst55]

NO doubt about that, with no powder in the case the primer will most certainly push the bullet from the case and into the barrel. Remember the CCI indoor plastic practice bullets, they were propelled with only a primer.


This is something that I have a problem with and have never ever heard of such except from 44man




Unless the powder is wet the powder is going to ignite, even with a 20 to 40 millisecond delay as the article points out

Never say never. I have personally witnessed an instance of WC820 not igniting at all, but the bullet being driven into the bore of the revolver. The powder charge was probably too low for the application, and a standard primer failed to ignite it. I don't know why it happened, just that it did. The temperature was sub-zero, FWIW.

[jwp475]

Never say never. I have personally witnessed an instance of WC820 not igniting at all, but the bullet being driven into the bore of the revolver. The powder charge was probably too low for the application, and a standard primer failed to ignite it. I don't know why it happened, just that it did. The temperature was sub-zero, FWIW.



Another reason to use a mag primer when called for and to never use to low of a charge of certain powders as the loading manuals suggest

[Jim]

Only with the intent to give an example of the force of a primer, I have fired 'gluelits' at a plastic lawn chair and saw them penetrate the chair and punch a hole it it. I have fired gluelits at clay flower pots and broken them. I have also fired them at 1/4" plexiglass and it put a 'spider web' crack in the plexiglass. Seems to me that if a primer will get a gluelit moving fast enough to do that kind of damage, it must be moving along pretty good.

I have intentionally lit off primers without powder behind cast boolits in a .357 revolver and the boolit lodged in the riflings just beyond the lead. I've fired the exact same boolit and primer in a .357 lever rifle and the boolit went a few inches past the rifling lead.

I'm not a ballistician and don't have lab equipment to prove aything, but I think the boolit went farther in the rifle barrel because there was no escape for the gas in the rifle barrel as there was in the cylinder gap of the revolver. It could very well be that the bore of the rifle was larger than that of the revolver, thus the farther travel. I don't know. I do know, though, that a primer will most definitely unseat a bullet and drive it into the riflings without any powder.

[Bwana]

I agree with the article on principle because he supports his with science, i support mine with the facts i've seen myself. I also agree with .44man, his information is always sopt on and i know many shooters that feel revolver accuracy is affected by the projectile leaving the case before the charge is ignited. This however is the first time i've heard of them causing dangerous pressure spikes, not that i want to speculate on SEE, but it would tend to create a perfect storm.... And if you were wondering, a standard LPP will seat a .44 boolit flush with the forcing cone on a Ruger...

The article did not say that the pressure curves were "dangerous", only that there were two of them. Because they were indications of possible problems that combination was abandoned. That was the prudent thing to do. Speer was/is in the business of producing ammo which is safe under any reasonable condition in most firearms. They are not going to spend money chasing ghosts when they don't have to.

[Markbo]

Never say never...The temperature was sub-zero, FWIW....

Well that is one test I don't think I will ever have to worry about! ;)

[44man]

Well that is one test I don't think I will ever have to worry about! ;)
I have tested primers in darn cold weather in the .44 with 296. It is not as accurate when bitter cold so I worked loads with both primers.
Yet in every side by side group test, the standard primer was always more accurate.
Will 296 fail to light at say -20*? Don't know and that might be where you want a mag primer.
Now I started my primer tests in the late 70's with the .44 and was using jacketed bullets. Still a huge difference.
Now and for many years I shoot cast only with lube on the boolit and a lesser grip from the case. Primers have proven more important.
Then shooting the .45 ACP revolver was only a spray and pray situation. I looked at the LP primer and said it is too much so I shimmed brass and we bought ACP brass for the SP primer. Groups shrunk to very small even in the 1911.
Long, long ago I figured it was boolit movement before full powder ignition.
Few believe but then to see an expert say you can have too much primer pressure brings it all home. Some still dispute.
Just maybe I knew what I was doing.
Whitworth disputes too so I said I will load his .44's with mag primers.
Then I made some of the most accurate semi wad cutter loads I could and had him shoot them at 50. But he blamed his shooting that day----HEE HEE, I just have too much fun with excuses! :bigsmyl2:

[jwp475]

Of course the the article stated that too much primer was in small cases the 9mm and the 22 Hornet, not the 44 mag. The article also stated to use a mag primer with the loads and powder that the load data called for them in

[44man]

Of course the the article stated that too much primer was in small cases the 9mm and the 22 Hornet, not the 44 mag. The article also stated to use a mag primer with the loads and powder that the load data called for them in
The .44 is not large enough to support a mag primer. The .45 Colt is borderline and I would only use a WW primer at most but all of my loads use a Fed 150.
The 155 is used in the .475, .500 and 45-70.
The .454 shines with a 155 LP primer over the high pressure, low heat of the SR mag primer.
Do the work, put down the books.
I never repeat books. So few know what they are talking about.

[429421Cowboy]

The article did not say that the pressure curves were "dangerous", only that there were two of them. Because they were indications of possible problems that combination was abandoned. That was the prudent thing to do. Speer was/is in the business of producing ammo which is safe under any reasonable condition in most firearms. They are not going to spend money chasing ghosts when they don't have to.

Welll pardon me.

[jwp475]

The .44 is not large enough to support a mag primer. The .45 Colt is borderline and I would only use a WW primer at most but all of my loads use a Fed 150.
The 155 is used in the .475, .500 and 45-70.
The .454 shines with a 155 LP primer over the high pressure, low heat of the SR mag primer.
Do the work, put down the books.
I never repeat books. So few know what they are talking about.


That appears to be your opinion but not the opinion of the ballistician that wrote the article that you posted


This is directly from the article that you posted the link to;


Magnum Primers: Use As Directed
Most primer makers offer a standard and a Magnum primer in each size and application. The Magnum primer offers more power for challenging ignition scenarios. A large-capacity case, a heavily deterred propellant, or extremely cold weather (less than 20 degrees Fahrenheit) typically makes the Magnum primer desirable.





There are two ways to make a Magnum primer—either use more of the standard chemical mix to provide a longer-burning flame or change the mix to one with more aggressive burn characteristics. Prior to 1989, CCI used the first option in Magnum Rifle primers. After that, we switched to a mix optimized for spherical propellants that produced a 24-percent increase in flame temperature and a 16-percent boost in gas volume.





Literature from some propellant manufactures often says that their products do not require Magnum primers. This is perceived as a good thing because Magnum primers are made in smaller quantities and require more chemicals; therefore, they are more expensive. However, I had to take a different view, one based on real-world issues.





We tested loads at both maximum normal pressures and at the starting loads (some labs calculate start loads—we shot them). Standard primers caused no ignition issues at the max load but posted higher extreme variations in pressure and velocity in the lower pressure regimes of the start loads. In extreme cases, the start loads produced short delayed firings—probably in the range of 20 to 40 milliseconds but detectable to an experienced ballistician. Switching that propellant to a Magnum primer smoothed out the performance across the useful range of charge weights and completely eliminated the delays.





If I’ve recommended a Magnum primer in reloading data I’ve developed, it’s because my lab results show it’s needed.

[Joe C]

Something to add to the primer pushing a bullet into barrel ....

Back in the 80's when i first started loading for my 460 Weatherby , i didn't use the Fed 215 magnum primer that was recomended for that cartridge.
Didn't have any 215's at the time , so i just used whatever mag primer i had .

First trip to the range I had a couple serious "hangfires" probably full 1 second delay.

Then i had a couple 'misfires" ?????

The powder never ignited, (120 grs of 4350, full case ) but the 500 gr jacketed bullet was pushed out of the case and down into the barrel.
Lucky , it wasn't driven into the rifling so hard that i couldn't tap it out with a rod.
The powder was also "caked" in the case and i had to dig it out.

This happened a couple times , not just an isolated case (even with different powders )

Friend of mine that had more experience with the Weatherbys said that one of the reasons for the Fed 215's was the Wtby cartridges .

If someone had said to me that a primer could push a 500 gr bullet out of the case , especially without igniting the powder , i would have said they were nuts..........

I switched to the 215's and never had another problem

Two things you can take from this experience .

One, you can push ( a 500 gr jacketed !!! ) bullet out of the case with just a primer .

Two , Sometimes you need to use "more" primer ....

Joe

[Bullet Caster]

I always thought that crimping fixes this. That's why you seat and crimp...a very light crimp and you cannot pull the boolit back out with your fingers. But then a cap is stronger in a confined space than a finger or two. BC

[Bass Ackward]

It's nice to come back and read once in awhile. Just to see growth in people as they learn. The written word advances learning to a state of awareness or curiosity, but experience is the only true educator.

What I have seen:

In a 44 Mag using 296 with dies producing .002 case neck tension a mag primer won out for accuracy.

Same situation with .004 case neck tension and accuracy results flipped.

Elmer's recommended .421 case neck tension produced the widest accuracy disparity with magnum primers which is easy to see why he adopted his opinion.

.411 case neck tension made the primers virtually interchangeable to the point that you could just dump different brands in a box and pick pot luck.

Now change powder volume (case space) (bullseye) and the results were altered dramatically and counter to my thinking, magnum primers beat standards at .411 case neck tension considerably.

Anyone that has ever pumped up a tractor tire with a bicycle pump should understand this concept well. So what you can get away with in one capacity case with a full charge of powder may be entirely different in different calibers. So it isn't just case neck tension, but "loaded" case volume as well.

The most accurate load combination in THAT 44 of 23.5 grains of 296 with a standard primer chronoed at 1340 at 80 degrees. 1280 at 20 degrees. And 1112 at -10. Same case neck tension, same batch of shells.

Shoot for accuracy in different temps and you WILL see different primer results with even the most temperature stable powders. Trust me, they aren't either. Buy a 22 Hornet and you will learn this fast.

What does all this mean? I'll leave it to your interpretation for the accuracy part of it. But from a safety aspect, loading for "extreme" accuracy can be unsafe under the right circumstances regardless of how safe you read something to be. Question you must answer is what is happening for me? That's why I took this handle of bass ackward. I use pistol primers for full case volumes under 45k and magnum primers for all reduced charges (reduced volume) situations especially those that MIGHT be shot in the cold.

By the way, the best way to test primers is to put your gun vertical in a vise so it won't move, load PRIMED cases only and place a dime or nickel on the muzzle / crown. Watch how high the dime goes. What you will learn ain't what you read. Some of those low powered primers will launch dimes higher than some brands of magnums. In a 7mm AI testing, I had a batch of Federal 150s (standard large pistol primers) that launched the dime higher than Fed 215s. Not all of them. Just 8 out of the flat. That will put your mind in motion.

I can tell you that testing is going to befuddle some peoples theories on primers. Then repeat this test 5 years later when you have different batches of each brand or primer OR after the same batch has cured longer to show somebody else what you want them to see and you will look like a fool as results may change again.

Change temperature, and watch it change again! Put in a different gun with a different primer imact may flip everything again.

So how does .... "things" work in yours? Well, you can't read that here. Trust less, experiment more, shoot more, post less. Safety OVER accurcy every time.

[jwp475]

It's nice to come back and read once in awhile. Just to see growth in people as they learn. The written word advances learning to a state of awareness or curiosity, but experience is the only true educator.

What I have seen:

In a 44 Mag using 296 with dies producing .002 case neck tension a mag primer won out for accuracy.

Same situation with .004 case neck tension and accuracy results flipped.

Elmer's recommended .421 case neck tension produced the widest accuracy disparity with magnum primers which is easy to see why he adopted his opinion.

.411 case neck tension made the primers virtually interchangeable to the point that you could just dump different brands in a box and pick pot luck.

Now change powder volume (case space) (bullseye) and the results were altered dramatically and counter to my thinking, magnum primers beat standards at .411 case neck tension considerably.

Anyone that has ever pumped up a tractor tire with a bicycle pump should understand this concept well. So what you can get away with in one capacity case with a full charge of powder may be entirely different in different calibers. So it isn't just case neck tension, but "loaded" case volume as well.

The most accurate load combination in THAT 44 of 23.5 grains of 296 with a standard primer chronoed at 1340 at 80 degrees. 1280 at 20 degrees. And 1112 at -10. Same case neck tension, same batch of shells.

Shoot for accuracy in different temps and you WILL see different primer results with even the most temperature stable powders. Trust me, they aren't either. Buy a 22 Hornet and you will learn this fast.

What does all this mean? I'll leave it to your interpretation for the accuracy part of it. But from a safety aspect, loading for "extreme" accuracy can be unsafe under the right circumstances regardless of how safe you read something to be. Question you must answer is what is happening for me? That's why I took this handle of bass ackward. I use pistol primers for full case volumes under 45k and magnum primers for all reduced charges (reduced volume) situations especially those that MIGHT be shot in the cold.

By the way, the best way to test primers is to put your gun vertical in a vise so it won't move, load PRIMED cases only and place a dime or nickel on the muzzle / crown. Watch how high the dime goes. What you will learn ain't what you read. Some of those low powered primers will launch dimes higher than some brands of magnums. In a 7mm AI testing, I had a batch of Federal 150s (standard large pistol primers) that launched the dime higher than Fed 215s. Not all of them. Just 8 out of the flat. That will put your mind in motion.

I can tell you that testing is going to befuddle some peoples theories on primers. Then repeat this test 5 years later when you have different batches of each brand or primer OR after the same batch has cured longer to show somebody else what you want them to see and you will look like a fool as results may change again.

Change temperature, and watch it change again! Put in a different gun with a different primer imact may flip everything again.

So how does .... "things" work in yours? Well, you can't read that here. Trust less, experiment more, shoot more, post less. Safety OVER accurcy every time.



You are spot on, a great post with very accurate info


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/thumb.gif

[44man]

Long, long ago I cut .44 groups by 2/3 or more and working with loads and the mag primers did not bring the groups down. Even the .45 Colt responded to a primer change.
How to explain it other then boolits were moving different amounts, changing capacity for each shot.
Case tension and crimp had no effect.
Some can come up with any explanation or show what they are talking about.
You NEED magnum primers in larger cases or large amounts of powder but in the end you want HEAT!
Joe C seen the difference between pressure and heat in the .300, just between primer brands.
Bass says about measuring pressure with a nickel but just how much fire are you going to measure? A primer with a lot of fire might not move a nickel.
He is correct about cold affects on powders and 296/H110 are slumps in bitter cold and is where I say to switch primers.
Testing to -10* has shown both groups opening bad but the mag primer groups were still larger and I never had a failure to ignite.
But do not start confusing things, I am ONLY talking the .44 mag and at the side, the .45 Colt that responds well to a WLP.
This is not about large rifle cases with 70-80 gr of powder.
JWP repeats what was said but fails to read it. LARGE CAPACITY CASE and a 24% INCREASE IN FLAME TEMPERATURE WITH FAR LESS GAS VOLUME!
The .44 does not work well with huge amounts of gas volume. If you insist on a mag primer, try different brands for accuracy but I will bet the WLP will work best.
These are groups shot at -10* with the .44.

[44man]

You can take it or leave it but just read what an expert said about too much gas volume and pressure.
Some understand but some do not.
You need to also understand he Weatherby chambers cut with a free bore or other rifles with long throats that act like a revolver with bullet movement before rifling contact. You need a lot of primer FIRE or you can have an SEE event.
Imagine if Joe C's powder would have ignited with the bullet stuck in the barrel and all the powder behind it or packed in the case with the bullet bore obstruction.
But a few put their shorts on backwards and can't find what they are looking for in time of need! :kidding:

[Joe C]

44man

It was kind of "interesting" !!!!!! :holysheep:holysheep to pull the trigger on that 460 Wtby. and actually hear the firing pin hit the primer , then have the rifle fire .
Kind of like shooting one of my flintlocks , but with a LOT more push backwards than any of the flintlocks i owned back then.
(that changed a few years ago when i built a 4 bore flinter , 1700 gr ball with 400 grs. 2f :-P:-P)

Joe

[44man]

44man

It was kind of "interesting" !!!!!! :holysheep:holysheep to pull the trigger on that 460 Wtby. and actually hear the firing pin hit the primer , then have the rifle fire .
Kind of like shooting one of my flintlocks , but with a LOT more push backwards than any of the flintlocks i owned back then.
(that changed a few years ago when i built a 4 bore flinter , 1700 gr ball with 400 grs. 2f :-P:-P)

Joe
True, my friend but also very scary. Thank God for the extreme strength of the Weatherby.

[felix]

Blue flame is HOT, Red is cold, yellow-orange is medium. Keep that in mind if and when primers (alone) are fired with reliable observation. ... felix

[jwp475]

By the way, the best way to test primers is to put your gun vertical in a vise so it won't move, load PRIMED cases only and place a dime or nickel on the muzzle / crown. Watch how high the dime goes. What you will learn ain't what you read. Some of those low powered primers will launch dimes higher than some brands of magnums. In a 7mm AI testing, I had a batch of Federal 150s (standard large pistol primers) that launched the dime higher than Fed 215s. Not all of them. Just 8 out of the flat. That will put your mind in motion.

I can tell you that testing is going to befuddle some peoples theories on primers. Then repeat this test 5 years later when you have different batches of each brand or primer OR after the same batch has cured longer to show somebody else what you want them to see and you will look like a fool as results may change again.

Change temperature, and watch it change again! Put in a different gun with a different primer imact may flip everything again.





This is important IMHO and is worth repeating

[Lloyd Smale]

Well ill say two things here. My experience with 44 mags and 45 colts for that matter doesnt mirror 44mans. Ive had better luck with mag primers with 110/296 and even 297 and 820/aa9. Im not going to sit here and say there better everytime but more times then not ive gotten better accuracy with ball powders using mag primers and obviously most powder manufactures have done extensive testing that supports that. Ill also say that just because a primer can push a plastic bullet out of a case or shove a bullet down the bore if the powder doesnt ignite doesnt mean that if it actually lit off the powder it wouldnt be the powder thats pushing that bullet. Id like to see how it could be proved differnt. Bottom line is even a standard small pistol primer will move even a jackted bullet into a bore. Someone tell me how anyone here would possibly have the equiptment to prove it either way. You sure cant see inside a case

[44man]

Blue flame is HOT, Red is cold, yellow-orange is medium. Keep that in mind if and when primers (alone) are fired with reliable observation. ... felix
Exactly, FIRE lights powder, never pressure.
Touch a match to a pile of BP, then to smokeless. See the difference?
You might have to wiggle the match to get through the coating on smokeless so the heat sets it off. Now add some air pressure to the match and watch the powder blow away from the flame.
Keep the powder next to the flash hole and the bullet in the case while heat is applied.
Ever light a welding torch with acetylene then turn on OXY too quick? It blows out the fire.
Does anyone even know a poor choice of a spark plug in a high compression engine will not spark?
High pressure can retard spark and flame front.
Powder makes it's own oxygen and can only feed on itself once it burns.
To argue with some is pointless, an exercise in futility! It turns into an agenda instead of profitable thought.

[44man]

Well ill say two things here. My experience with 44 mags and 45 colts for that matter doesnt mirror 44mans. Ive had better luck with mag primers with 110/296 and even 297 and 820/aa9. Im not going to sit here and say there better everytime but more times then not ive gotten better accuracy with ball powders using mag primers and obviously most powder manufactures have done extensive testing that supports that. Ill also say that just because a primer can push a plastic bullet out of a case or shove a bullet down the bore if the powder doesnt ignite doesnt mean that if it actually lit off the powder it wouldnt be the powder thats pushing that bullet. Id like to see how it could be proved differnt. Bottom line is even a standard small pistol primer will move even a jackted bullet into a bore. Someone tell me how anyone here would possibly have the equiptment to prove it either way. You sure cant see inside a case
Seems to me that Federal went to the 150 primer for the .44 loads that shoot very well. I wonder why!

[9.3X62AL]

Never say never. I have personally witnessed an instance of WC820 not igniting at all, but the bullet being driven into the bore of the revolver. The powder charge was probably too low for the application, and a standard primer failed to ignite it. I don't know why it happened, just that it did. The temperature was sub-zero, FWIW.

What Nichols said. In spades. Bass Ackwards is--as usual--always worth a reading.

[44man]

What Nichols said. In spades. Bass Ackwards is--as usual--always worth a reading.
As have I with a SR mag primer driving the powder and boolit well into the bore in the .454 with no ignition.
I have no experience with WC820 but I suspect it was under loaded.
Air space moves powder ahead, away from flame. If you think a mag primer would have helped, coyotes howl at the moon.
That is why you never under load 296 or H110.
ALL of my 296 loads are 100% case capacity, meaning my boolits touch the powder when seated.
Lack of case tension aggravates ignition with soft boolits.
You tell a problem with no explanation as to why. Time to think.

[jwp475]

Well ill say two things here. My experience with 44 mags and 45 colts for that matter doesnt mirror 44mans. Ive had better luck with mag primers with 110/296 and even 297 and 820/aa9. Im not going to sit here and say there better everytime but more times then not ive gotten better accuracy with ball powders using mag primers and obviously most powder manufactures have done extensive testing that supports that. Ill also say that just because a primer can push a plastic bullet out of a case or shove a bullet down the bore if the powder doesnt ignite doesnt mean that if it actually lit off the powder it wouldnt be the powder thats pushing that bullet. Id like to see how it could be proved differnt. Bottom line is even a standard small pistol primer will move even a jackted bullet into a bore. Someone tell me how anyone here would possibly have the equiptment to prove it either way. You sure cant see inside a case



+1............. Spot on

[jwp475]

Seems to me that Federal went to the 150 primer for the .44 loads that shoot very well. I wonder why!



Show me where and how you came to that conclusion

[44man]

Show me where and how you came to that conclusion
Find it! It is there.

[jwp475]

Find it! It is there.

You do not know?

[Lloyd Smale]

you may have read somewhere that they use 150s in 44 specials but id about bet a dime to a hundred dollars that they use mag primers in there 44 mag pistol ammo. Why would they even risk a hangfire or a squib in a gun shot in say alaska in the winter when a mag primer cost the same to them. Companys are alot more liability driven then performance and even if there ammo did shoot better with standard primers, which again isnt happening on my bench, theyd no doubt use mags just to be safe. by the way one of the surplus powder vendors claimed that fed uses wc297 in there mag pistol ammo. I dont know because im sure not going to buy a box and find out but if they do theres absolutely no doubt in my mind they are using mag primers as if anything in using it myself it seems even a bit harder to light off then 110. QUOTE=44man;1607130]Find it! It is there.[/QUOTE]

[jwp475]

you may have read somewhere that they use 150s in 44 specials but id about bet a dime to a hundred dollars that they use mag primers in there 44 mag pistol ammo. Why would they even risk a hangfire or a squib in a gun shot in say alaska in the winter when a mag primer cost the same to them. Companys are alot more liability driven then performance and even if there ammo did shoot better with standard primers, which again isnt happening on my bench, theyd no doubt use mags just to be safe. by the way one of the surplus powder vendors claimed that fed uses wc297 in there mag pistol ammo. I dont know because im sure not going to buy a box and find out but if they do theres absolutely no doubt in my mind they are using mag primers as if anything in using it myself it seems even a bit harder to light off then 110. QUOTE=44man;1607130]Find it! It is there.[/QUOTE]



Federal does use mag primers in there 44 mag ammo

[44man]

I lost the link, been searching for it and E mailed Federal with no answer.
We are in the same boat, neither can prove at this point.
Your claims for a mag primer hold as much water as mine against.
I will quit posting until I have the answer but the rest of you can keep posting your opinions without proof. At this point, it is only what you think and I prefer actual proof.

[44man]

Federal does use mag primers in there 44 mag ammo[/QUOTE]
How do you know for sure since I can no longer find the info, you sure can't either.

[jwp475]

I lost the link, been searching for it and E mailed Federal with no answer.
We are in the same boat, neither can prove at this point.
Your claims for a mag primer hold as much water as mine against.
I will quit posting until I have the answer but the rest of you can keep posting your opinions without proof. At this point, it is only what you think and I prefer actual proof.




Acctualy we are not in the same boat, You make claims with out proff.Fedral contracts the loading and I personaly know the owner of the company that loads the 44 mag Federal cast core ammo and he loads all 44 mag loads with H-110/296 with mag primers

You are speculating and I have a soure for my information

You are also claim that mag primers and standard primers are the same color, but that is also incorrect as this picture clear demonstrates

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/Photo049.jpg


Accurate info is much more pleasing

[44man]

You make claims all the time without proof.
Primers have changed color and Fed is the same but here is a CCI 300 on the left and a 350 on the right.
Yes, colors can change from time to time. but you need to be color blind with this one.

[jwp475]

You make claims all the time without proof.
Primers have changed color and Fed is the same but here is a CCI 300 on the left and a 350 on the right.
Yes, colors can change from time to time. but you need to be color blind with this one.



I have proof this picture was taken by me just a few weeks ago with recent manufactured primers and they are the same color.Since things do change over time to make a blanket statement that one can look at a primer and tell mag or standard by color is not correct


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/Photo049.jpg


OF course you did not leave the primers in the original box so that both boxes would show in the picture, is there a reason?

[Bwana]

I'm popping a batch of popcorn, so keep it coming.

[454PB]

NO doubt about that, with no powder in the case the primer will most certainly push the bullet from the case and into the barrel. Remember the CCI indoor plastic practice bullets, they were propelled with only a primer.


This is something that I have a problem with and have never ever heard of such except from 44man




Unless the powder is wet the powder is going to ignite, even with a 20 to 40 millisecond delay as the article points out

Yes it can happen, it's happened to me:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=20838

I took pictures of the clump of unburned powder and the slug removed from the barrel.

[MajorJim]

Some recent studies/comparisons on primers:

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/06/primers-large-rifle-primer-study.html

http://www.6mmbr.com/PrimerPix.html

http://www.castingstuff.com/primer_testing_reference.htm

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

http://wstiac.alionscience.com/pdf/WQV11N2_ART01.pdf


Not always the primer that is the issue - sometimes it is the powder. Some powders are temperature sensitive, others not. Some are prone to clump in high humidity, others not. The M16 was originally designed to use a stick powder - the Army used ball powder and the problems were epic.

With faster burning powders, there is often a lot of case left filled with air. Once in the chamber, the powder settles to the bottom of the cartridge, and often times you get bad ignition. Fillers help to avoid these problems.

My favorite primer when I was married to the 338 Lapua was RWS (these days, we just fool around). Great ignition, flame and burn time. Unfortunately, those are all but unavailable in the US these days.

Didn't mean to try to start a hockey game in the middle of the fray. We now return to our regular programming......

[jwp475]

Yes it can happen, it's happened to me:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=20838

I took pictures of the clump of unburned powder and the slug removed from the barrel.





Another great example of why a blanket statement is a bad idea

[jwp475]

Some recent studies/comparisons on primers:

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/06/primers-large-rifle-primer-study.html

http://www.6mmbr.com/PrimerPix.html

http://www.castingstuff.com/primer_testing_reference.htm

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

http://wstiac.alionscience.com/pdf/WQV11N2_ART01.pdf


Not always the primer that is the issue - sometimes it is the powder. Some powders are temperature sensitive, others not. Some are prone to clump in high humidity, others not. The M16 was originally designed to use a stick powder - the Army used ball powder and the problems were epic.

With faster burning powders, there is often a lot of case left filled with air. Once in the chamber, the powder settles to the bottom of the cartridge, and often times you get bad ignition. Fillers help to avoid these problems.

My favorite primer when I was married to the 338 Lapua was RWS (these days, we just fool around). Great ignition, flame and burn time. Unfortunately, those are all but unavailable in the US these days.

Didn't mean to try to start a hockey game in the middle of the fray. We now return to our regular programming......




Spot on.......

[white eagle]

[II have however seen a marked increase in groups with the use of mag primers
I don not believe that they are the cure all but have come to the conclusion that they do make a difference and will continue there use[/I]

[Lloyd Smale]

Bottom line is they have there place and its probably somewhere in the middle of this argument. I might use them more then actually needed. I basicaly anymore use 350s for any load that has 110/296 297 820/aa9. Sure some of those powders might light off fine with a std primer if i kept the pressures up toward the top but ive just had better accuracy across the board with mag primers using those powders. 44man makes the statement that std primers are more accurate then mags across the board with 110. Thats just another blanket statement that has holes in the blanket and im sure if he looked at all his load data for the many years hes loaded hed see that hes forgot many loads that shot well with mags. Just like me he convinces himself whats best and after that doesnt even give much efford to proving himself wrong.

To even make a blanket statement like that youd have had to try every brand of mag pistol primers as theres a BIG differnce between the brands. There isnt a whole lot of differnce in my opinion between a ww mag and a cci std and theres a big differnce between a fed or ww and a cci 350. So even if you tried two differnt std primers and two differnt mags and made a statement like that it could eaisly be proved wront just by swithching to one of the primers you didnt try.

I see arguements all the time about aa9 lately. Now thats a powder in aa9 and wc820 that ive shot a ton of. Ive ran just about every combo of powder and primers and at about every pressure level with a multitude of bullet designs accross the chronograph and at paper and i shake my head at people that claim it works best with std primers. I dont know what there looking at to come to this conclusion. I have no steak in the argument. I doesnt make me money or aquire me cheerleaders that worship what i write. I just am saying what ive seen with my own eyes. Id say theres even more of a need for a primer like a 350 with those powders then there is for 110/296. Funny thing is when i read articles from supposidly knowlegable gun writers about how this just isnt so i never see there chrono results. WHY? because the dont do it. They arent going to waste there time actually testing something. Just make a few phone calls, read someone elses opinion and then copy it and write. Most think there so important that nobody would question there statements and if they did nobody would put any store in an opinion that bucked theres.

thats one cool thing about this place. We can argue, disagree and even fight but its done with a bit of respect. Why? because even the opinions we dont agree with came from actual testing and shooting done by the guy posting not some bs dreamed up as its typed into the computer. The one main thing ive learned on this forum over the years is there is NEVER one carved in stone answer to ANY question.

[Bwana]

I have been waiting for someone to bring this fact up and, since no one has, let me. All this talk about mag versus regular primers for 44 mag and yet Win and Rem only have one primer for large pistol rounds. Hummm. Now, is it possible that they buy someone else's "Mag" primer to load their 44 mag round? We all know that's not the case so what are we left with? Maybe they don't know what they're doing? That doesn't seem likely. Maybe they don't care about what they put out? That doesn't seem likely. Maybe they just use a "regular" large pistol primer in their 44 Mag loads. That may be the case with Rem, I don't know what powder they use. However, we know that Win uses a slow ball powder and it is most likely to have a burn rate like 296, though not a cannister powder. And we know that it is recommended that a "magnum" primer be used with 296/110. Just something else to consider while you mull over this topic.

[felix]

I consider all ammo these days, including individual components, as commodities. JIT (just in time) manufacturing is here to stay, having been in practice for the last 20 years or so in the USA. ... felix

I just know if I got an order from marketing and given a price/cost point, I'd be on the horn all day and night finding the components to satisfy such order to meet delivery on time. ... felix

[sundog]

As well as just in time delivery which depends on centralized wharehousing. Fluctuating/soaring fuel prices can reek havoc on such a scheme that otherwise makes good sense. Wonder why each trip to the grocery store keeps costing more and more?

[jwp475]

I have been waiting for someone to bring this fact up and, since no one has, let me. All this talk about mag versus regular primers for 44 mag and yet Win and Rem only have one primer for large pistol rounds. Hummm. Now, is it possible that they buy someone else's "Mag" primer to load their 44 mag round? We all know that's not the case so what are we left with? Maybe they don't know what they're doing? That doesn't seem likely. Maybe they don't care about what they put out? That doesn't seem likely. Maybe they just use a "regular" large pistol primer in their 44 Mag loads. That may be the case with Rem, I don't know what powder they use. However, we know that Win uses a slow ball powder and it is most likely to have a burn rate like 296, though not a cannister powder. And we know that it is recommended that a "magnum" primer be used with 296/110. Just something else to consider while you mull over this topic.




Maybe Winchester & Remington only sell one type of primer, but use more than one type in the loads.. Just something else to mull over

[Bwana]

jwp475,
That is a possibility that I gave some thought to and then decided that the logistics of producing said primer and not selling it to the public would not be very profitable. It is possible, I just don't think the bean counters would go for it. And they run the companies. Hopefully someone will be able to get and share some reliable information on this matter. I would like to know one way or the other.

[jwp475]

I do not for a fat that some of the major ammo makers contract out the loading of some of there ammo. In fact I have a friend that owns and operates an ammo company that loads some ammo for on of the majors

[Bwana]

I had read somewhere that Win had contracted out some of their ammo to a European firm. Don't know if fact. I go through, on average, over 100 lbs of brass every month and look at every case. Back during the post 2008 election scarcity I saw Win 45 ACP cases that should have been rejected and, in the last two years, I have seen Win 380 cases that looked oddly like those produced by an overseas manufacturer. What it all means, I don't know; but, it sure is interesting at times.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive seen some really shoddy quality control on ww rifle brass of late too! Primer flash holes off center, loose primer pockets, dented necks, uneven lenghts ect.

[warf73]

As for needing Fed mag rifle primers only in 460Wby, well I can tell you that a standard Winchester rifle primer will give delay ignition using H414 but cci mag will not.

[44man]

This is from a few years ago when I first made my 445SM, the gun is a H&R rifle not a handgun.




A fallow up my load off the bench with a scope at 100 yards.

H&R rifle bore is .4320”


445Super Magnum

Brass - Starline
Primer - CCI Large Mag Pistol Primer
Powder – Win. 296 @ 29gr.
Bullet – Hornady 300gr. XTP
Velocity - Average 1975 F.P.S.
Max C.O.L - Over all length 1.935"
3 Shot Group – Average 1.250"



As for needing Fed mag rifle primers only in 460Wby, well I can tell you that a standard Winchester rifle primer will give delay ignition using H414 but cci mag will not.
Not relevant at all. The .44 mag revolver was under discussion.
If you think I would shoot a Weatherby without a Fed 215, you are nuts.

[warf73]

Guess I'm nuts then because I've never fired a 215 in a Weatherby yet but have been threw almost 2k cci's.

[44man]

Guess I'm nuts then because I've never fired a 215 in a Weatherby yet but have been threw almost 2k cci's.
CCI LR mag primers are OK and are close, but I used the FED in my .300. CCI makes good stuff.
In fact a CCI 300 LP works the same as a Fed 150 in the revolver.
But there was a time when mag rifle primers did not work good in the Weatherby rounds. The 215 was SPECIFIED! It was developed for the purpose.
I have the 1965-66 Weatherby book in front of me right now and the only caliber that used the Fed 210 was the .224 mag.
Mag primers of other brands were not up to snuff for the big rounds. You have to have grown up with the guns.
Things change like the short nose bullets to fit Freedoms.

[Lloyd Smale]

fed 215s and cci lr mag are very close in performance. WW mag rifles are lame by comparison.

[Bwana]

All this talk about Fed 215s I had to go check. Yep, I have 1800 on hand from the former third FIL. Maybe I should try them in my converted 44Mag cases. Ok, maybe not; but, I could. I don't know what he used them in. The biggest thing he loaded for was the 30-06. Oh well, maybe trade goods down the line.

[44man]

James,

I don't know that we ever used anything other than the 150 primer in the 44 mag.
Without going too far back I checked the 2007 catalog on my desk and it was used
at least that far back. Hope this helps.
Here is the answer from Federal.

[subsonic]

Is there a picture/attachment/etc that I'm not seeing?

[44man]

Is there a picture/attachment/etc that I'm not seeing?
No, I copied and pasted from my E mail.
I am also asking other makers about primers.

[Lloyd Smale]

why dont you copy and paste the whole email? Or better yet forward it to me at lws43@hotmail.com and ill verify it on here.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I've fired the exact same boolit and primer in a .357 lever rifle and the boolit went a few inches past the rifling lead.

Now that may be one reasonably unscientific way of comparing primers. Measure the distance from the muzzle with a rod. An interesting way to waste an afternoon, lol.

[BeeMan]

Not sure why I'm stepping into this fray, but I did do some professional work a few years back with manufacturing engineering and validation testing of airbag stab initiators. Those things were essentially primers, in a 3 stage gas generator that inflated automotive airbags.

Ignition of smokeless powder in a cartridge is a matter of starting decomposition of the nitrocellulose (for single base powders.) That requires raising the temperature of the powder. Hot gas can do this, hot particles can do it, and pressure plays a role. A given internal ballistics environment may be successful based on that unique balance of components achieving the required temperature rise.

Looking at gas and glowing particles is interesting, as is measuring pressure rise in a closed 'bomb.' These were necessary steps in what we did. We also ran a 'few' experiments to find what worked in the complete airbag system. In the end our primer mix had primary explosives for the sensitivity, quick pressure rise, and shock wave, gas generators for the hot gas and pressure component, and fuel/oxidizer mixes to generate hot particles.

What matters is reliable uniform ignition in a your particular cartridge and firearm. Some choose to do this by using tested and published load data, others experiment and let the gun tell them what works. Those who choose the second entertain some risk but may also find something that works better than a standard load, in their firearm under their test conditions.

BeeMan

[MaxEnergy]

Those who choose the second entertain some risk but may also find something that works better than a standard load, in their firearm under their test conditions.

BeeMan


this is essentially what some folks here have been trying to impart to the OP. way too logical!

[jwp475]

this is essentially what some folks here have been trying to impart to the OP. way too logical!



Exactly!!!!

[44man]

Being a gunsmith, can I count the guns? No. But every single .44 shot better with a standard primer. I will never deny that.
If your load only shoots in one .44, it has failed due to crazy short barrels or a twist change. That has nothing to do with a primer.
I love the airbag stuff compared to a gun! :mrgreen:
Just how does that fit when you want bag inflation right now?

[jwp475]

Being a gunsmith, can I count the guns? No. But every single .44 shot better with a standard primer. I will never deny that.
If your load only shoots in one .44, it has failed due to crazy short barrels or a twist change. That has nothing to do with a primer.
I love the airbag stuff compared to a gun! :mrgreen:
Just how does that fit when you want bag inflation right now?



When did you become a gun smith? How much do you charge? What services do you offer? Do you have a web site?

[44man]

When did you become a gun smith? How much do you charge? What services do you offer? Do you have a web site?
Retired except to make Marko's guns shoot plus friends. But here are a few guns I made from scratch. What have you done?

[Whitworth]

Retired except to make Marko's guns shoot plus friends. But here are a few guns I made from scratch. What have you done?


Make my guns shoot? I told you to cut me out of this pathology. In other words leave me out of all of this.

[jwp475]

Retired except to make Marko's guns shoot plus friends. But here are a few guns I made from scratch. What have you done?



What type "gunsmith did you do", before retiring?

[41 mag fan]

I had that happen once in a 357mag BH 23 yrs ago. Left out a row on charges. Bad thing was I was new to reloading even though I'd been around it all my life. I just had never really done it on my own till then. My family always loaded for me.
But the 1st round was a squib, very low recoil, like I had a 1/2 charge of BE in it. The 2nd shot went "pop", no recoil.
Now being new, young and dumb, I pulled back the hammer and let go another round. Man the recoil was double. Then being young and dumb still.....I pulled back the hammer again....another "pop", and being really really young and dumb....I pulled back the hammer again...except this time the cylinder wouldn't rotate.
So back home I went and got to looking, there was the base of my bullet sitting inbetween the cylinder and barrel.
Once I looked at the 6th round, there was no load in it.
And the more I thought on my stupidity, I realized when cycling the 3rd round the cylinder was tight turning. Only thing I can surmise, is the no recoil and pop of the second shot, I had a bullet lodged in the barrel, and fired another round right after it.
That was the last time I ever made that mistake.

[44man]

What type "gunsmith did you do", before retiring?
All of it that does not pertain to you. You send guns to gunsmiths. I wonder if you can take a revolver apart let alone see what a boolit does when shot. When you can cut a plank with a chainsaw and make a custom rifle from it, talk to me. Did you ever checker a fine piece of wood that cost as much as your car? CAN YOU CHECKER? Can you carve wood? can you engrave? Can you change barrels? Can you make parts by hand?
Stop your bluffing, you have too much money to do anything for yourself. I bet you call a plumber when a sink gets stuck.

[jwp475]

All of it that does not pertain to you. You send guns to gunsmiths. I wonder if you can take a revolver apart let alone see what a boolit does when shot. When you can cut a plank with a chainsaw and make a custom rifle from it, talk to me. Did you ever checker a fine piece of wood that cost as much as your car? CAN YOU CHECKER? Can you carve wood? can you engrave? Can you change barrels? Can you make parts by hand?
Stop your bluffing, you have too much money to do anything for yourself. I bet you call a plumber when a sink gets stuck.



??????

[onceabull]

All this from a "gunsmith" who used to cry poverty while cadging for reloading supplies on this very forum.. ?????? Onceabull

[Dale53]

Good People!!!

I have no dog in this fight. However, it is plain to see that we are getting entirely too personal for what has been, for the most part, a useful discussion.

Tone it down before you say anything more that will be hurtful (and to no purpose, I might add)!!

Dale53

[Lloyd Smale]

Yup its obvious nothing is going to be resolved here and the few of us oldtimers that are in this probalby should shut it down. Id hate to see this fourm turn into one of fourms like The accurate loading forum were theres a bunch of self proclaimed experts on everything and its like a school yard where the bullys all gang up on people. This has allways been a civil fourm that recognizes theres more then one way to skin a cat. I appologize for my part in it.

[jwp475]

Yup its obvious nothing is going to be resolved here and the few of us oldtimers that are in this probalby should shut it down. Id hate to see this fourm turn into one of fourms like The high road were theres a bunch of self proclaimed experts on everything and its like a school yard where the bullys all gang up on people. This has allways been a civil fourm that recognizes theres more then one way to skin a cat. I appologize for my part in it.




No need for an apology, all you did was post the facts and I for one applaud you for that


Accurate infomation is the core of sharing info, BS on the other hand not so much

[44man]

Yup its obvious nothing is going to be resolved here and the few of us oldtimers that are in this probalby should shut it down. Id hate to see this fourm turn into one of fourms like The accurate loading forum were theres a bunch of self proclaimed experts on everything and its like a school yard where the bullys all gang up on people. This has allways been a civil fourm that recognizes theres more then one way to skin a cat. I appologize for my part in it.
Well said. I am always slammed with BS but apologize for some responses. I will show while others type.
Lloyd, we missed our calling. We could be the best shooters on earth and the smartest if we just leave our guns in the safe and read gun rags. [smilie=1:

[Bwana]

Yup its obvious nothing is going to be resolved here and the few of us oldtimers that are in this probalby should shut it down. Id hate to see this fourm turn into one of fourms like The accurate loading forum were theres a bunch of self proclaimed experts on everything and its like a school yard where the bullys all gang up on people. This has allways been a civil fourm that recognizes theres more then one way to skin a cat. I appologize for my part in it.

"Yup its obvious nothing is going to be resolved here and the few of us oldtimers that are in this probalby should shut it down. Id hate to see this fourm turn into one of fourms like The high road were theres a bunch of self proclaimed experts on everything and its like a school yard where the bullys all gang up on people. This has allways been a civil fourm that recognizes theres more then one way to skin a cat. I appologize for my part in it."

Now someone is going to say I'm being untoward by mentioning the difference in the two posts. Normally I wouldn't mention it except I am unfamiliar with "The accurate loading forum". I am aware of The High Road, though I can't remember the last time I went there.

I think that all anyone should desire is that if one is going to posit something as the "truth" rather than their opinion or their experience then you should be able to ably defend that "truth". And we all need to keep in mind that what is one day accepted, even in the scientific community, is often disproven later.

The way you "prove" something is to subject it to tests. If your results are repeatable by you, and others, then you are on to something. Remember the Cold Fusion stir a number of years ago? They made claims and yet no one else could repeat their results. Therefore it was declared BS. Was that harsh? No that was reasonable.

To allow people to throw out items as facts when they are obviously not facts does a disservice to those who don't know enough to know better. Kind of like when the US Rep called out "Liar" during Obama's address to Congress. I found it refreshing. Others, who like to spew untruth as truth found it reprehensible. So, while you may consider me or anyone else pointing out what we see as not being true the same as impuning the character of someone, that does not make it so.

So, I don't think it's asking too much for someone to defend their position in a manner which makes sense and is understandable. I for one will not post something without being willing to defend it. If it is my opinion or experience I will defend it as long as it is being questioned or someone changes my mind. Being able to change your mind is important as none of us knows everything.

[jwp475]

Spot on, Bwana.... Great post accurate and to the point

[Lloyd Smale]

Bwana it was the accurate fourm i was refering too. I accidently typed in the high road fourm.

[Whitworth]

Yup its obvious nothing is going to be resolved here and the few of us oldtimers that are in this probalby should shut it down.


Dang, Lloyd. Every time you refer to yourself as an oldtimer you force me to face reality (since you only have about 6 years on me). I don't like it, please stop -- LOL!:bigsmyl2:

[felix]

There are no guarantees in this life on this earth which are purely based upon the human prospective. The futuristic odds are always 50-50, either a yes or no value, and is irrespective on the MATTER on hand. Laws are based upon human gathered statistics from the past and are therefore not predicts. Either you get a SEE or you don't. ... felix