T.R. Graham glock smith says yes can shoot lead in glock

[357reloading]

T.R. Graham glock smith says yes can shoot lead in glock. I met him at a fort worth texas gun show. Has a video for sale, and posts on glock talk.

Anyway he told me that you can shoot lead in a glock but recommends a BHN of 18 or better. My experience bears that out.


Sure many will have comments, just saying my experience, and I do believe T.R. Graham, besides he is a Texan. have to believe. :)

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Well that explains why my Glock 40 S&W never gave me any trouble with my cast. Have no idea how many hundreds of rounds I launch everytime up north there through that old barrel. It just keeps purring and at the end of each outing I can still see the rifling.
Mike in Peru

[MtGun44]

Yup, "everbody knows" that only steel hard boolits can work. Any soft lead projectiles
will cause leading, blowups, acne and lots of other bad stuff. :kidding:


Pardon me if I am sketical as all getout that some magical BHN number has
ANY bearing on this. My experience with OTHER GUNS is that BHN is massively
overrated as a variable. Maybe Glocks have some reason why this might be
actually true, but color me unimpressed as a starting point.

[357reloading]

BHN 18 is very hard lead. But you correct expect some leading.

[Walt]

I'll sure won't use swaged lead in my Glocks or HKs but I've not found that hard of a boolit needed! Most of what I shoot in the polygonal barrels is probably 12 to 15 BHN.

[Bwana]

Yup, "everbody knows" that only steel hard boolits can work. Any soft lead projectiles
will cause leading, blowups, acne and lots of other bad stuff. :kidding:


Pardon me if I am sketical as all getout that some magical BHN number has
ANY bearing on this. My experience with OTHER GUNS is that BHN is massively
overrated as a variable. Maybe Glocks have some reason why this might be
actually true, but color me unimpressed as a starting point.

That reason has to do with the rifling used in Glocks and some other guns. It does not impart a spin to the "soft" boolit (does fine with "bullets") initially as does "regular" rifling. This will result in leading with all the resulting problems. It is easily solved with "hard" boolits of the correct size and proper lube. Precision brand swaged, coated boolits lead in my G23 like crazy. But then they are soft and undersized. They work just fine in my aftermarket G23 bbls.

[mooman76]

Don't need really hard bullets just proper size. I used straight WWs and had no leading problem.

[Bwana]

mooman76,

I use water dropped WWs and I couldn't tell you what number they are on a scale. I do know that my thumbnail will not make any indention on them. That is pretty much my "test" to see if a boolit is what I consider "hard". When you start talking about linotype metal, well that's another whole level of "hardness".

[Matthew 25]

Well I might have believed it, but coming from a Texan I think I'll err on the side of caution.

[M1A4ME]

I don't know how hard they are but the plated bullet from Berry's and Ranier won't shoot worth a darn in my M31 Glock. Some of them are turning sideways at 12 yds. Group looks like a shotgun pattern.

I put a lone wolf barrel in it and the plated bullets do just fine. Now for some of those lead 147 grain bullets that won't feed in my 9mm.

[MtGun44]

Assuming that hardness is the critical variable is a really common mistake. I would go
as far as to say THE most common newbie misconception that needs to be overcome
before you can really progress in the boolits world.

In most cases, fit is far, far more important, to the point that hardness beyond about
8 or 10 BHn is pretty much irrelevant in pistols. Maybe Glocks are different, but I tend to
doubt it and there is at least one poster in this thread reporting that a properly fitted wwt
alloy boolit works fine in his Glock. Maybe his gun didn't get the memo on what BHN
is required.

This fits well with my experience with many other guns. IME, hardness is a red herring
and most folks spend way too much time on this, at best, secondary variable that is,
at worst, almost entirely irrelevant - while ignoring the real item that is critical - FIT.

Commercial casters extolling the virtues of their wonderful products have latched onto
hardness as their defining measure of wonderfulness. They are mostly too darned hard
to work properly and I never, ever make any of my boolits as hard as the common
commercial boolits - including lots of full power magnum loads. This constant drumbeat
of "hard is good" and "harder is better" obscures the real issue - FIT.

Bill

[Bwana]

Ok Bill, I understand now you just like to argue, whether the 'facts" support your position or not. That's cool as long as everyone knows where you're coming from. Perhaps there is a little lack of reading comprehension tossed in there, whatever. When you post things like this;
"In most cases, fit is far, far more important, to the point that hardness beyond about
8 or 10 BHn is pretty much irrelevant in pistols. Maybe Glocks are different, but I tend to
doubt it and there is at least one poster in this thread reporting that a properly fitted wwt
alloy boolit works fine in his Glock. Maybe his gun didn't get the memo on what BHN
is required.", it is pretty obvious. I find it tiresome; but, I guess some find it entertaining.

[MtGun44]

Hmm. So what is 'tiresome' about that post? It is absolutely factual information, with
a slight attempt at humor. Sorry if the humor attempt fell flat. Being rude and adding
in some personal attacks is often used when someone cannot come up with facts to
support their position. I'd much rather have a civil discussion than get involved in childish
name calling.

"Lack of reading comprehension" - OK, please tell me what I failed to comprehend.
Sometimes I read over a post too fast and miss some point, so if I did, please
enlighten me. I may have missed something. Plus some of the time I am posting
late at night and I might have just been sleepy and missed something or interpreted
something incorrectly. How about your own reading comprehension. Do you even
understand what I am talking about?

Atcually, I was trying to point out that FIT is far more important than hardness, and
whenever I hear some "expert" telling me that hardness is the critical variable, I am
quite skeptical because IME, hardness is extremely NON-critical, and can vary all over
the map with good to excellent results as long as the fit is correct. Too many folks
ignore fit and sweat the hardness, which is exactly backwards on these two variables.

That said, I want to make sure to say that my experience is in conventional rifled barrels, and
I know that some Glocks have polygonal rifling, which could possibly behave differently.
So I am trying to be clear that my extensive experience that I am drawing on does not
include Glock polygonal barrels, but lots of other brands. I start from the viewpoint
that a barrel is a barrel, but do allow for the possibility that polygonals might be a bit
different.

Tell me about your testing of soft boolits that fit well versus hard boolits that are
undersized and I'd be very interested in your results. Tell me about your facts. I
always tell about my facts, and I often have photos to support.

Bill

[Bwana]

Bill,
I suggest you go back and reread the title to this thread. I know you have a problem staying on topic; but, please try. It makes things so much easier. Now if you are still having a problem, I'll be along after a while to help you out.

[runfiverun]

did you welcome mr graham to the 17th century when he broke the "news"?
maybe his next report will be on using lead in a rifle.

[mongo]

I was more concerned with the bulge I was getting in my .40 brass. I picked up a Storm Lake barrel and couldnt be happier with the results,

[Walt]

In most cases, fit is far, far more important, to the point that hardness beyond about 8 or 10 BHn is pretty much irrelevant in pistols. Maybe Glocks are different, Bill

8 BHN......WOW! Come on Bill, is the 35,000 PSI pressure in my 9m/m, Super 38, 40S&W, and 10m/m pistols somehow different than the 35,000 PSI pressure in my 357 and 44 Mag revolvers? I have and do shoot swaged (8 BHN) SWCs in my 45 Autos and 12 BHN WW boolits in my Glocks but......

[jwp475]

mooman76,

I use water dropped WWs and I couldn't tell you what number they are on a scale. I do know that my thumbnail will not make any indention on them. That is pretty much my "test" to see if a boolit is what I consider "hard". When you start talking about linotype metal, well that's another whole level of "hardness".



Water quenched WW should be in the 20 to 24 BHN range. I love water quenched WW in my big bore revolvers

[Four Fingers of Death]

We only used commercial cast bullets and polymer coated ones after the first few years in the Glocks at work. Customers and manufacturers of cast bullets are no different here then there and readily extoll the virtues of 'Hard Cast' bullets. We Kb'd up a bunch of guns, one on the first mag. What we worked out finally was that the Glock would fire slightly out of battery and the brass which had been used in the Glocks previously was slightly buldged at the base. These were minute measurements, ie, the degree out of battery the gun would fire at and the bulge in the case.

We ended up using second hand brass that had not been fired in Glocks and not reloading it again. These guns were in 40S&Ws. 9mms have been used extensively in Australia since Glocks came out and virtually all ranges in Australia are lead bullet only, no Jacketed). There is yet to be a problem with a 9mm here.

If I had a Glock in 40+ calibre, I'd be springing for an aftermarket Bbl for lead. The armourer put an aftermarket Bbl in his personal issue gun and fired thousands and thousands and thousands of rounds through it without an issue (gun nut+free ammo+range outside office= lots of shooting).

[Ausglock]

FFOD.
I run Topscore 180TC in my G35 40S&W
as well as Lee 175 TC as well.
Lubed with Jakes Purple Cerasin.
Sized .401
BHN is around 13 with a Lee tester.
Alloy is 20Lb Range lead with 5Lb COWW and 1/2 Lb of Pewter.

I've been launching these at Steel animals for the last few years with no leading or issues at all. Power Factor is about 178. Vel about 1000FPS

Cases are once Glock fired Federal, Thanks to the QLD Police.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I'm fresh out of Glocks, lol. I have a 92FS a Norinco 1911 9mm and a Colt Gubbermint 38Super. I have a 22 Ciener slide and have recently acquired a 45ACP slide.

I wouldn't mind a Glock, especially in those warrey greens and browns, :)

[Bwana]

We only used commercial cast bullets and polymer coated ones after the first few years in the Glocks at work. Customers and manufacturers of cast bullets are no different here then there and readily extoll the virtues of 'Hard Cast' bullets. We Kb'd up a bunch of guns, one on the first mag. What we worked out finally was that the Glock would fire slightly out of battery and the brass which had been used in the Glocks previously was slightly buldged at the base. These were minute measurements, ie, the degree out of battery the gun would fire at and the bulge in the case.

We ended up using second hand brass that had not been fired in Glocks and not reloading it again. These guns were in 40S&Ws. 9mms have been used extensively in Australia since Glocks came out and virtually all ranges in Australia are lead bullet only, no Jacketed). There is yet to be a problem with a 9mm here.

If I had a Glock in 40+ calibre, I'd be springing for an aftermarket Bbl for lead. The armourer put an aftermarket Bbl in his personal issue gun and fired thousands and thousands and thousands of rounds through it without an issue (gun nut+free ammo+range outside office= lots of shooting).

To quote Dirty Harry: "A man's got to know his limitations."

[Old Caster]

I was told in 1965 when I was casting bullets for the AMU that soft lead was preferable for pistol shooting. Naturally when I read other books I thought they didn't know what they were talking about and when I got out of the Army I immediately started using hard lead because what could the AMU know and besides they were shooting bullseye at 725 fps. After all these years of casting, ( I have no idea how many pounds of lead), I realize I should have listened. If you take a piece of pure lead and write on a piece of steel, it will not show. If you take a hard piece of lead you can easily write with it. The harder it is, the easier to write.
Experienced BPCR shooters will never shoot any alloy with antimony in their rifles because of the possibility of lead sticking tightly in their barrel and the black powder corroding under it in a short time and some of them load to 1300fps. Lead will stick in these guns even if pure is shot but it also comes out easily and is not much of a problem whereas hard lead is next to impossible to get out.
A few years ago I did extensive work trying to find a 38 special 158 grain bullet that would be accurate enough for the Distinguished Revolver matches and quickly found that every hard bullet I tried leaded worse than a swaged bullet and finally settled for a cast RCBS-150 and keep the BHN from 7 to 10. This gave me the best results as far as accuracy is concerned and the least leading to the point that I never worry about whether it is leaded or not. I am convinced that it would be fine to lower the hardness to pure lead but that won't cast very well without going to really high temperatures and they are too easy to damage while handling.
The idea of them damaging from handling is exactly why manufacturers use hard lead. They don't beat up in shipping so they look better and so many people don't know that soft bullets are fine because of the rhetoric that has been repeated so many times by people that are only saying what they have heard and this repeated incorrect rhetoric isn't only about soft and hard lead. There are many other things that are repeated by people who haven't "been there and done that".-- Bill --

[357reloading]

thank to all. great comments

[leadman]

The "hardball" alloy that the casters use is also the most price friendly to them, casts well in their Magma machines, and as stated does not bang up when shipping. the hard lube is also used due to price and the fact it stays put when shipping.
I made and sold cast boolits for awhile and most were 11 to 12 BHN with a softer lube. It was difficult to ship them and have them arrive in as packaged condition.

I have a friend that has the CZ 9 X 18 with a polygonal bore and uses my boolits with the soft alloy with no problems.

I may buy one of these just to experiment with to have the first hand knowledge.

I would assume (dangerous) that Glock would be able to hold the tolerances in their barrels to SAAMI spec and maybe it was the Glock 'smiths experience that the 18 BHN boolits were of the correct dimension to work properly in the barrels. Harder boolits with a higher antimony content tend to be larger from the same mold as a softer alloy, writing in general terms.

[Four Fingers of Death]

The "hardball" alloy that the casters use is also the most price friendly to them, casts well in their Magma machines, and as stated does not bang up when shipping. the hard lube is also used due to price and the fact it stays put when shipping.
I made and sold cast boolits for awhile and most were 11 to 12 BHN with a softer lube. It was difficult to ship them and have them arrive in as packaged condition.

I have a friend that has the CZ 9 X 18 with a polygonal bore and uses my boolits with the soft alloy with no problems.

I may buy one of these just to experiment with to have the first hand knowledge.

I would assume (dangerous) that Glock would be able to hold the tolerances in their barrels to SAAMI spec and maybe it was the Glock 'smiths experience that the 18 BHN boolits were of the correct dimension to work properly in the barrels. Harder boolits with a higher antimony content tend to be larger from the same mold as a softer alloy, writing in general terms.

The Glock Kb apparently only manifests itself in 40+ cal

[Bwana]

Four Fingers,

"The Glock Kb apparently only manifests itself in 40+ cal"

I'm having a little trouble deciphering what you meant by that. Would you mind clairifying for me?

[Four Fingers of Death]

Four Fingers,

"The Glock Kb apparently only manifests itself in 40+ cal"

I'm having a little trouble deciphering what you meant by that. Would you mind clairifying for me?

The term Glock Kb means Glock KaBoom! That is when they blow up. It shows how popular the pistol is that it continues to be one of the most popular autos (maybe the most popular, I don't know), even though they occasionally go Kb!

Google Glock Kb and you will see a wealth of articles, etc about it.

There does not seem to be a problem with 9mms. Apparently the barrel/chamber are better supported in these. Same external size, smaller hole I suppose.

We used 40cals at work and while I didn't ever see one let go, my friend the armourer for he Dept said that they had lost several, one on the first magazine from new.

[Bwana]

Oh, I know all about "Glock KaBoom". I just wasn't sure what you meant by "40+ cal", still don't. The very first case of a case letting go that I knew of was a G17 that had a kaboom. It was a indoor shooting range rental gun. They had been shooting lead reloads (theirs) in it. This was about 25 years ago or so. I knew/know the owner and they are still the largest indoor range in OKC, maybe all of OK, (H&H Range). The problem with early 40 ammo had to do with Federal cases being weak in the head area. These cases are marked: FC 40 SW. If you run across any of these do yourself and everyone else a favor and crush it or use it to make a swaged bullet. I still get them in range brass every now and then as people shoot up their old rounds. It is possible to kaboom just about any semi auto, just became associated with Glock 40s due to the confluence of factors.

[garym1a2]

I got storm lake barrels for my Glock 22, one is a 9mm conversion barrel and the other a 40 cal.

With the 9mm I get great results and reliability. With the 40 cal I only done a few hundred rounds thru it and get good results, but my 40 cal loads are very light as I only need to be minor power factor out of them. With 40 cals the cases have to be checked very close as I do see a lot of buldge brass from the range pickup stuff.

My Glock 40 barrel leaded so badly after the first 50 rounds that I do not even bother with it anymore.