9mm leading issue

[grantr]

Both my LC9 and Sig p228 are leading.


I bought some 125 gr cast bullets from Mid Atlantic Bullets. These are 18 BHN with a yellow hard lub.

I am using Universal clays and using data from my Lee die set. 3.8 to 4.3 grains. I even tried up to 4.8.

All loads are producing a lot of leading. I don’t know how to judge leading but I can shoot 50 to 100 round and run a brush through the barrel and get quite a few slivers of lead. When I run a cloth through the barrel it makes the lead shiny so I can see the deposits running down the rifling.

To get the rest out, I filled the barrel with 50% peroxide and 50% vinegar and let it sit ten minute. It gets it all of the lead out and leave a clean barrel. Sometimes I can see slivers of lead hanging down from the rifling after shooting. These are supposed to be .356 diameter bullets but are .358

I sluged my Sig barrel and it measures from .358 to .350. I am using a digital caliper to measure these.

The 45s I ordered from a different company are exactly .452 as advertised.

Based on what I have read my bullets are too small. Is this normal for a 9mm to have a larger bore? The slug is out of round. Why does the bore size vary? Is this normal?

Any tips or suggestions? I have some .358 diameter 158 grain for my 357 Smith and it is not having a leading issue with 6 grains of powder. There is one or two small streaks in the barrel.

[C.F.Plinker]

First, welcome to the site. There are many knowledgable people here.

I take it that the groove measurement is .358 and the land measurement is .350. The 4.3 grains of Universal is Hodgdon's max for a 125 grain lead conical nose boolit. Since your boolits are right at the groove diameter I would try tumble lubing them with Lee Liquid Alox (read the threads about 45-45-10) to see if that helps.

Others here have used 158 grain .358s in their 9mm pistols I will let them commint on that part of your questions.

Again, welcome aboard.

[grantr]

Thanks for the welcome!


Yes thats right .350 land and groove .358

I also have the lee factory crimp die. Should I be using this die? I think it squeezes the bullet and brass down to factory size. Factory rounds go in it without touching. Cast rounds have to be forced into it.

I tried it at 3.8, 4.3 and even 4.8. Leading at all charges.

I thought about trying the 158 gr bullets but could not find any load data for universal.

[runfiverun]

I also have the lee factory crimp die. Should I be using this die? I think it squeezes the bullet and brass down to factory size. Factory rounds go in it without touching. Cast rounds have to be forced into it.

there's your problem.
you just squeezed your boolit too small.
using a 158 in a 9mm case is something that you need to think through very carefully.
about 2 grs of powder is where i'd start.

[grantr]

So do I need a taper crimp die? I dont think the bullet seating die crimps the case. Or is the press fit good enough for 9mm and 45 ACP ?

[Bullet Caster]

Your seating die should be a roll crimp die as well and if you crimp it enough you get a really profound crimp. If you screw the die into the press just a little bit you'll get a nice crimp but be careful. The crimp is controlled by how far the die is screwed into the press. The factory crimp die should not be necessary as these type of dies usually squeeze the bullet (boolit) down too much and it becomes too small for your bore. The factory crimp die has a carbide ring in it which squeezes the boolit down beyond the bore groove size. You want just a slight crimp. What kinda dies are you using? My Lee carbide dies in 9mm (I have the 3 die set without the factory crimp die) are all that are necessary to load the 9mm. Also, you might be seating the boolit a little too far into the cartridge. My 9mm mould is the Lee .356 124 grain and I crimp just behind the driving band on the boolit. I know a lot of shooters (reloaders) who try to seat the boolit too deeply and it causes leading. You should not disturb the front driving band. Hope this helps. BC

[MT Gianni]

When those run out I get no leading with BHN12 in 9mm. It might be worth considering on your next boolit purchase.

[MtGun44]

TC as a separate operation is required for good feeding reliability and boolit position
maintenance (push back a boolit during feeding and blow a case in 9mm). You are one of the
army of folks that find that commercial cast 9mm boolits are too small and too hard,
with crummy lube. I recommend the Lee 356 120-TC and NRA 50-50 lube.

Check out this sticky.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=121607

Bill

[DLCTEX]

It sounds to me that your bore is oversize and the crimp die is sizing the boolit down. I'm not that familiar with 9mm, but you need a way to crimp without sizing the boolit. Actually I would want a 359 boolit in a 358 bore, but chambering a round may be a problem if the chamber is tight.

[Jailer]

Before you go messing around with different crimp dies, you need to pull a loaded round and see if they are being swaged down when they are seated. If you're using Lee dies this is more than likely the case. The expander spud on the Lee 9mm dies is very short. Load up a few dummy rounds without any crimp at all and then pull them and measure them.

Check one thing at a time before you make any wholesale changes so you can figure out where the problem is.

[geargnasher]

+1 jailer.

Grantr, I think you're experiencing the same thing so many people do with commercial "hardcast" boolits: Too hard for your pressures, lousy "crayon" lube, and too small.

The 9mm is a high-pressure cartridge and has very tough, hard brass. Like Jailer said it can squeeze your boolits undersized unless expanded properly, and most production die sets have expanders made for the much smaller jacketed bullets. When you seat your cast boolits (which usually need to be larger to seal the bore properly) in brass expanded with typical dies, the interference is too much and often the brass wins over the lead.

Undersized boolits lead the barrel. Making certain that your boolits, whatever you use, are coming out of the brass and going into the barrel at least .001" larger than the groove diameter is one of the keys to preventing leading. I'll bet you're having some case swage with your .358" boolits.

Leading is very misunderstood, but basically can be traced to gas leaks due to poor boolit fit at some point in the firing process. Jacketed bullets are almost immune to this, in fact must be a tad smaller than groove dimension to work safely, but cast boolits are the opposite: They need to be a tight fit so the high-pressure powder gas doesn't blast through leaks and abrade the lead, making dust that gets ironed on your barrel and causing accuracy and further leading issues.

As far as out-of-round barrels, if the boolit is bigger than the largest diameter when it's fired into the barrel, it ought to work just fine. Fit, as is often said here, is KING.

Gear

[sgabel1]

I had the same problem with my Beretta 92 having an large bore for 9mm. I ended up using a 125 gr RN Lyman 358242 that dropped .359. I then cut back a 38 special Lyman M die tip to open up the case to accept the bullets I sized .358. I also found lots of variation in the wall taper on different manufacturers brass. Federal had the thinest and did not bulge when I used my modified M die. Remington was softest of the brass with the most wall taper and would show a visible bulge when using my M die. All said and done this helped a lot but there was still a bit of leading. Note,you need to pull the barrel to set the taper crimp to insure proper feeding.

[Dschuttig]

Why can't any of the commercial mold makers make a .359 9mm mold? Does anyone actually have a 9mm with a .355 BBl? All of mine are at least .357 with the walther p-1 coming in at just above .358. Once I figured out the hard way that .355 is not reality my leading went away, as did my "open Cylinder" shotgun patterns on the targets. I use the lee 356-125-2r beagled to .358.5, hard cast with LLA or Ideal lube. It seems to be the only bullet that will feed through the P-1 or CZ-52 9mm coversion, closest profile to 9mm ball RN.

[theperfessor]

Try the Lee 358-125RF. Works fine in my HiPower sized to .358 over 6.8 to 7.0 grs Blue Dot.

[smokemjoe]

Ihave a custom made 9 and have the same troubles, it leads all the time wilth all bullets, why would crimping help, If I load bullets oversize it bulges the case out. The only thing that didnt lead was reloads for a gys sten gun, it wouldnt lead with a HOT barrel. Thanks- Joe

[MtGun44]

So what does bulging the cases hurt? If they will chamber, and bigger boolits will stop
leading will you let a cosmetic issue get in the way of function?

Bill

[Az Rick]

You should only be taper crimping a 9mm. I use the least amount of crimp necessary to hold the bullet in place. I would go back to or get a regular crimping die and try it. Maybe you could borrow one and try it before you buy.

I agree w/gear, bullets are pretty hard for a 9mm.

Go buy a solid copper, Chore Boy brand pot scrubber. Cut a few strands and wrap them around your cleaning brush. It will cut the lead out without harming your barrel. It's fast and easy, solid copper scrubbers only!

Best,

[MT Gianni]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=124464
One good solution for an undersized expander plug in Lee dies.

[grantr]

I have the Lee 4 die set. I see the 3rd seating die can be screwed down to crimp the bullet. I wish i had know that before buying the 4 die sets. I didn’t know the factory crimp would cause problems with cast boolits!

I hope I set the sizing die correctly.

The way I initially set this die: I used a empty piece of brass and screwed the die down until I couldn't turn it by hand any more. Then i removed the brass and gave the die another 1/4 turn. Then I put a factory load in the die and screwed the seating part of the die down until it touched the facotry rounds bullet.

The rounds look to be crimped.

I sized my rounds a bit longer than 9mm specs. They fit the mags on both guns fine and chamber in both. They are 1.1875 long with 125 gr round nose. I figured the closer to the rifling the less gas blow by!

It is weird that mt XD 45 will not chamber full length 230 gr cast 45s. I had to make them shorter than 230 gr FMj ball ammo. The gun would not go into battery. The case was protruding past the end of the barrel where the base of the boolit is supposed to be flush. The FMJ has a more pointed profile than the cast round.

[runfiverun]

now you are learning.
cast bullets,are not mass produced jaxketed stuff base nothing on what you buy from the store.
i use a 125 gr rnfp 38 boolit in my 9mm's.
i might could size my 9mm rn mold to 357 an it might could shoot fine [in fact it does]
but i can use the rnfp boolit in both of my 9's and in my 357 guns too, so i just make more of them.

[mooman76]

I'd try like P.F. Sinker said. Put some LLA on them and see if it helps. If it doesn't you are no worse off. I recommended it to someone once in the same situation except he only had minor leading and it went away totally. It doesn't sound like you have a sever leading problem but not light either. The Lee FCD doesn't always size down bullets but it does allot of the time, especially with cast.

[MtGun44]

Your problem with the XD is that the throat of the XD is clearly very short, or nonexistent.

The proper way to set up a TC is to start with a dummy round with a boolit seated so that
it DOES clear the rifling, start adjusting the TC die until you can see that the belling is
being removed from the case mouth. Slightly tighten it to just push the case mouth about
1/3 to 1/2 of the brass thickness into the lead. Use the dismounted barrel as your gage for
LOA and for TC setup. A loaded round should drop in flush with the end of the chamber, or
with a 1 lb push at most.

The pistol type of FCD is a problem child. Some people swear by them, many swear at them.
My personal opinion is that they do nothing that a normal set of dies won't do if the dies
are properly made and adjusted. So, it is at best useless, and at worst, potentially harmful
by sizing down the boolit so that it is now too small to work properly. Great.

Beats me why people keep thinking that they need them.

Bill

[C.F.Plinker]

The problem that more than a few have have with the factory crimp die is that the carbide ring in the base of the die sizes the boolit down as the cartridge goes into the die. Measure one of your boolits, put it into a case and run it into the FCD until the boolit is past the carbide ring. Then take it out, pull the boolit, and measure it again. If it has been sized down to less than your groove diameter you will probably get leading.

My procedure for adjusting crimp seaters is to start with the die body high enough that it will not crimp, then use the seater plug to seat the boolit until it is even with the top of the crimp groove in the boolit. Now back it out several turns then start screwing the die into the press until you get enough crimp to take the flare out of the brass. I had problems with one gun and I personally taper crimp so that the crimp is about .002 less than that. For example, if the crimp is removed at .470 on a 45ACP, I will crimp to .468. YMMV. Then lock the die in this position and screw the seater die down until it touches the boolit. Lock it in place. Now take another case and boolit and run them through to see of you need to tweak the settings a little.

[MtGun44]

Plinker's method is correct. I might use a touch more TC, though, but that is a lot
of the particular gun's preference.

Bill