Has anybody tried no lube with checks?

[subsonic]

Just out of curiosity, in an otherwise good load that does not lead with a gas checked boolit, have you tried omitting the lube?:holysheep

[StratsMan]

I confess, I recently tried this in my 357 with some Cream of Wheat as filler.... maybe I need to learn more about using CoW as a filler... I read on a thread that the CoW worked well to keep the bore clean... with that in mind, I loaded up a few and headed off to the range... result was difficult extraction from the cylinder. No doubt that was the result of the filler...

But if I recall, the bore remained clean... a little tasty sedimentation in the bbl, but it wiped out easily.... I'll probably experiment further based on what else I learn on this forum...

[williamwaco]

I have occasionally experimented with unlubed bullets. But plain base not gas check bullets.
In 100% of the cases by about the third or fourth round, the bore looked like a rusty water pipe with grey rust.

You are expecting the gas check to "clean up after itself"

It works with half jacketed pistol bullets. It would not be unreasonable to try it with gas checks.

But there is a big difference.

In a half jacketed pistol bullet, around two thirds to three fourths of the bore contact was made by the jacket. In a gas check bullet it would be considerably less than that.

Give it a try and let us know.

Word of caution. On the first trip to the range, don't take more than five in case it doesn't work.




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[Freightman]

I will let you try it and tell us what it does, have fun.

[subsonic]

Well, I have read in several places that gas checks scrape away lead fouling.

If that is true, then a boolit should be able to be fired with a gas check and no lube and result in less leading than the same boolit without a check or lube. Sound reasonable?

[Sonnypie]

Has anybody tried to reinvent the wheel?
I mean shucks, I think I'll drain the oil outta my old truck and go drive it down the interstate. [smilie=f:
I'm gonna start in Moe-surrah and I'll post when I get to the golden gate.

:killingpc

I think I understand your handle now. ;)

[Wolfer]

I have occasionally experimented with unlubed bullets. But plain base not gas check bullets.
In 100% of the cases by about the third or fourth round, the bore looked like a rusty water pipe with grey rust.
.

My experience exactly.

[Bullet Caster]

There's a madness to shooting without lube. I have to agree with Sonnypie on this. You wouldn't want to drive your vehicle without any lube in the engine. I would think the same applies to lubing boolits before ya shoot 'em. I haven't tried that yet and don't think I ever will despite what "they" say about gas checks. Boolit lube was invented for something like shooting and I couldn't imagine shooting "dry" boolits. That just seems like an accident waiting to happen. Just my dos centavos worth. BC

[JeffinNZ]

Well it certainly can be done. Take air rifles for example. Some modern earguns are breaking the sound barrier with bare pellets. It's a factor of pressure I suspect or low pressure.

Lube isn't lube per se. It's a gasket more than anything. If it is just a lube why don't the noses of bore riding bullets, sans lube, lead the barrel?

[Jim]

Stupid ol' man checking in-
Seems to me, if it were feasible, it would have been established many decades ago. Now I understand why mold makers still cut lube grooves in the mold bodies and lube mfgrs. still do a brisk business.

[subsonic]

You guys are missing my point.

I don't want to do this just to avoid lube. I want to find out if checks scrape leading.

Ask 5 people what gas checks "do" and you'll get 5 answers.

They definitely reduce leading, but why? This experiment is about finding out "why".

Wouldn't it be odd if leading was as bad or worse when removing lube from the equation?

[btroj]

A check may remove a bitof lead but it obviously can't scrape it all. Ink aout it, if a check was capable of really scraping the bore how could any checked bullet lead? The check is the last thing thru the bore!

I don't put a whole lot of credence in the idea of the check scraping lead from the bore. Heck, it can't even scrap lube from the bore. Look at the experiences people have with lube purging from some lubes. If it can't scrapper a soft material like bullet lube how can it remove a much harder lead deposit?

[Reload3006]

you should read abcs of reloading 5th edition chapter 11 the author discusses 1/4 and 1/2 jacketed boolits and talks about their notoriety of excessive leading. It would seem to me that if a quarter or half jacketed boolit would lead what would make one believe that an unlubed gas checked boolit would not?

There was a boolit and Corbin MFG is still marketing the Idea of the Protex boolit. its supposedly a copper washer swaged or cast on the base of the boolit thats supposed to scrape the fouling out. Personally I dont buy it.

[Sonnypie]

Well it certainly can be done. Take air rifles for example. Some modern earguns are breaking the sound barrier with bare pellets. It's a factor of pressure I suspect or low pressure.

Lube isn't lube per se. It's a gasket more than anything. If it is just a lube why don't the noses of bore riding bullets, sans lube, lead the barrel?

Good point, Jeff.
I have a couple myself. One supposedly faster than my 45 ACP. But not super sonic.
Expanding on the thought, the first thing that comes to mind is that air pressure is released into a barrel to push the pellet or lead slug (Sheridan type) on it's way. It is finite on the available reservoir pressure.
Whereas, in a powder gun an explosion and very hot gases do that.
Not that compressed air isn't hot, it can be. But like they say about black powder, it pushes instead of more explodes. (Although, any BP gun I ever shot didn't push back, the durned things kick.)

Makes me wonder about the C.U.P. in a pellet gun, Vs: the known C.U.P pressures in "regular" loads.
I don't think it is comparing apples and oranges.

[subsonic]

I will make up 6 and shoot them this weekend from my .45 Colt. It is the gun I own that is least likely to lead. I will change nothing with the load, save for scraping/melting the lube off of 6 boolits before loading.

[Mugs]

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm272/mugs_photo/100_0436.jpg
If you look close the boolits have lube only in the false groove ahead of the gas check. They were shot at 2000 fps. Still left a small lube star . Accuracy was better with less lube. Would it get better with no lube?

Mugs

[subsonic]

What alloy Mugs? I assume soda can checks?

Is that a bore rider?

[Mugs]

4-1 WW& lino. WD. .014 Amerimax checks from Pats dies. RCBS 308-200 Sil. bore rider.
Mugs

[ShooterAZ]

I had thought of trying this too in my 30 Carbine. Only thought but never did. Thin coat of 50/50 alox & ms never leads at all.

[williamwaco]

You guys are missing my point.

I don't want to do this just to avoid lube. I want to find out if checks scrape leading.

Ask 5 people what gas checks "do" and you'll get 5 answers.

They definitely reduce leading, but why? This experiment is about finding out "why".

Wouldn't it be odd if leading was as bad or worse when removing lube from the equation?


OK here is THE answer to that specific question.

YES! ( sometimes )
NO! ( sometimes )

MAYBE
IT DEPENDS

I rarely shoot gas check bullets because the gas check doesn't really do anything I need done. And because I am a 70 year old Scott who doesn't want to add three cents per round for no additional functionality.

BUT.

I always carry a half box of either gas check or jacketed bullet loads to the range with me. Especially when testing new loads.

I hear LOTS of opinions that they will NOT remove leading. In my experience every time I have leaded a barrel with a new load, three to five jacketed or gas check bullets will leave the bore clean and shiny.

I am not saying there is no lead but I will state that in my experience either will remove all visible leading. When I get home I use a lead specific cleaning method to get anything I can't see.

I have no experience with the NO side of this question but you can learn a lot and find out a lot about gas check loads leading bores at this thread.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=129425



.

[Sonnypie]

OK here is THE answer to that specific question.

YES! ( sometimes )
NO! ( sometimes )

MAYBE
IT DEPENDS

I rarely shoot gas check bullets because the gas check doesn't really do anything I need done. And because I am a 70 year old Scott who doesn't want to add three cents per round for no additional functionality.

BUT.

I always carry a half box of either gas check or jacketed bullet loads to the range with me. Especially when testing new loads.

I hear LOTS of opinions that they will NOT remove leading. In my experience every time I have leaded a barrel with a new load, three to five jacketed or gas check bullets will leave the bore clean and shiny.

I am not saying there is no lead but I will state that in my experience either will remove all visible leading. When I get home I use a lead specific cleaning method to get anything I can't see.

I have no experience with the NO side of this question but you can learn a lot and find out a lot about gas check loads leading bores at this thread.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=129425



.

:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:

[longbow]

If you read this:

http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_6-5_WadsFillers.htm

You will get some answers or at least more opinions on fillers. So far using .303 I have had good results with COW filler and plan more testing.

Also, as per Mugs results, I have had some Lyman 314299's that I decided to tumble lube the bore riding nose on as well as lube in the grooves. Accuracy was worse with more lube so I scraped off the extra lube on the noses and accuracy returned. Too much lube can be a bad thing

There are a variety of reasons for using filler with one being to replace gas checks. Mine was partly that and partly to provide 100% loading density with medium to slow burning powders using reduced charges ~ no chance of double charging with light loads and higher pressure to provide better combustion.

If you plan on using filler though, you cannot just toss a bunch of COW or other filler on top of a load. You have to work up like any other load development or you can run into high pressures. My opinion is that the weight of filler is generally insignificant when added to the ejecta. The reduced volume though is very significant and will raise pressures... or at least can raise pressures depending on powder, cartridge, bullet weight, etc.

Makes me wonder if StratsMan reduced his charge at all when adding COW. If not then that likely explains the stiff extraction if it wasn't there before.

Before jumping in to loads with fillers, best to do a lot of reading. Some people reduce charge of powders that fill the case just enough to fill the neck of the cartridge, others are taking up 1/2 or more of the volume to eliminate air space with substantially reduced loads.

Also, again, my opinion but I would not be inclined to add granular filler to an overbore cartridge like .243, 7mm mag, .264 Winchester or other similar large bodied/small bore, sharp shouldered cartridges.

Kinda drifted from the original question.

Gas checks provide just that, a barrier to help reduce gas leakage and so gas cutting of the lead. Even light cast boolit loads develop pressures well beyond the yield strength of the hardest/strongest lead alloys used for boolit casting.

Plain base boolits will start leading at relatively low velocities while gas checks allow somewhat higher pressures and velocities before leading occurs.

Fillers help to seal the gases behind the boolits minimizing gas cutting and also providing a wiping action. Remember than even light loads are developing around 20,000 PSI which is compressing that plug of filler into a hard cylinder which follows the boolit down the barrel.

Lube, lubricates and as Jeff points out acts as a gasket. I strongly suspect that you will get leading with unlubed boolits at anything more than very light "cat sneeze" loads... unless you use a granular filler (not Dacron, kapok or other fluffy filler).

It is easy enough to load a few rounds without lube to test them and prove a point. If they start to lead, stop and clean it out before it gets real bad. Like others have said, I think you will get leading if you don't lube and/or use a granular filler.

Just my thoughts and opinions.

Longbow