Where did all the lead come from?

[beagle]

Discussing powder manufacturing during the civil war on another thread led my thought process to this question. Where did all of the lead come from during the civil war?

Now, I know we have lead deposits in Illinois and also along the Mississippi River but the US wasn't industrialized that much at the time of the civil war to produce the quantities needed by both sides to accomodate the ammount of bullets fired and there wasn't any wheel weights. In fact, I'm kinda wondering what lead applications were in use in those days that required lead other than shooting.

One thing about lead, it's always here. It's mined, processed, used and remains with us. Maybe scattered in the ground but still with us.

I'm just wondering why us casters haven't been smart enough to figure out a source to insure a sure supply to our hobby without all the hoopjumps we go through to make boolits./beagle

[Springfield]

We HAVE a sure supply, with Rotometals and the like, but we want it CHEAP. That's the sticking point.

[exile]

Maybe it wasn't as easy to find as you might think. I read somewhere that a general (can't remember his name) appropriated a lady's bathtub for boolits as it was made of lead.

Seems like if you had two competing governments wanting lead, they would both put quite a bit of energy into mining lead. Say what you want about government, but when they want something bad enough, they seem to find a way to get it. I doubt it would be easy for a private individual to mine lead without a significant source of capital.

However, the way things are going in this country, we may soon have to band together to do just that!

exile

[OneSkinnyMass]

At the outbreak of the war, Confederate troops seized the rich Granby lead mines of southwest Missouri, then touted as able to provide all the lead needed for the Confederate cause. In 1861, 75,000 pounds of pig lead a month were being hauled overland to Van Buren (Crawford County), to be shipped to the Memphis, Tennessee, ordnance works. The loss of Missouri to the Union following the Battle of Pea Ridge in Arkansas effectively meant losing this important war materiel source. The Confederate Nitre and Mining Bureau mined lead and saltpeter (an ingredient in gunpowder) in Newton, Marion, Pulaski, and Sevier counties. However, these operations proved too close to enemy lines and were soon abandoned for more secure sources in Texas.


http://encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclopedia/entry-detail.aspx?entryID=5405
skinny

[jakharath]

I remember as a kid growing up in Arkansas that someone found a few cannon balls in a field. Also remember stumbling on a CSA cemetary.

[letsmeltlead2693]

Lead back then came from lead mines. People dug up galena or PbS and melted the raw ore to make lead.

[popper]

We could mine Gettysburg to get all that lead back. Lead in Texas - we don't even have any gold. Galena, Ks is part of the Ks/Mo/Ar mining area, on the edge of coal fields(1877). Was lots of lead, tin and copper there. Closed in 70, now just a bunch of slag hills. PbS is fools gold.

[letsmeltlead2693]

Lead is worth more than gold to me. Rather have a million tons of lead as to the same value of gold.

[beagle]

I guess that's my point. The cost has been driven up someway as there's no shortage of lead. Yeah, I agree, we're cheap and want it cheap and I guess the EPA regs are driving what's available up and also prohibiting more mining of it. Same way with copper I suspect.

Maybe things will quieten down some after the recession and things will get somewhat back to normal.

The hoarders can only hoard so much but I guess I'm as guilty as the next man as I have a pretty good stash in my barn right now./beagle

[popper]

I'd take the gold and use the lead to protect my stash. Cost of smelting is way up in the US, partially EPA and mostly soccer mom's. They've driven 2 battery recyclers out of town and are working on the last remaining 1. Send all the business to Mexico or pacific rim like we did with asbestos brake pads.

[JIMinPHX]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that back in the 1700s it was common practice to mine a hunk of galena, then put it in a hollowed out stump, then build a fire around the stump, then recover the lead from the ashes, a few hours later. Apparently the burning wood acted as both flux & fuel. I haven't tried it myself though. I would not even know how to identify galena if I saw it.

Next question - where do you find raw tin & raw antimony?

[Hardcast416taylor]

As I have often said about our "wonderful" politico`s in Washington don`t need to enact any more firearm laws - just get the componets and loaded ammo so expensive that nobody can afford them to shoot in their firearms!Robert

[beagle]

Jim...back in the old days when they were using flintlocks and had "beef shoots" for various portions of a beef cow, one of the prizes was the stump that they shot into. The winner burned the stump and recovered the lead. That's how hard it was to get in the pioneer days./beagle


I seem to remember reading somewhere that back in the 1700s it was common practice to mine a hunk of galena, then put it in a hollowed out stump, then build a fire around the stump, then recover the lead from the ashes, a few hours later. Apparently the burning wood acted as both flux & fuel. I haven't tried it myself though. I would not even know how to identify galena if I saw it.

Next question - where do you find raw tin & raw antimony?

[Ervin]

Somewhere I have a football size chunk of galena from southern Mo. I remender some small (1/8 to 1/16") ruby red crystals. The rest looked like lead.
Ervin

[beagle]

Got to think about the task of transporting that much dead weight back in those days. Maybe 1,000 pounds per wagon. Even that task was formidable. Shipping from overseas would have been an equally daunting task and they'd have probably been out prioritied by any muskets and other hard to get items./beagle


At the outbreak of the war, Confederate troops seized the rich Granby lead mines of southwest Missouri, then touted as able to provide all the lead needed for the Confederate cause. In 1861, 75,000 pounds of pig lead a month were being hauled overland to Van Buren (Crawford County), to be shipped to the Memphis, Tennessee, ordnance works. The loss of Missouri to the Union following the Battle of Pea Ridge in Arkansas effectively meant losing this important war materiel source. The Confederate Nitre and Mining Bureau mined lead and saltpeter (an ingredient in gunpowder) in Newton, Marion, Pulaski, and Sevier counties. However, these operations proved too close to enemy lines and were soon abandoned for more secure sources in Texas.


http://encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclopedia/entry-detail.aspx?entryID=5405
skinny

[frankenfab]

skinny's post prompted me to Google Galena. Some neat pictures here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galena

[felix]

That is all downhill in that article, and some of the hills to these river/rail towns are STEEP! Brakes are mostly the significant item for these wagons. I have no idea what would be reasonable back then besides Budweiser horses tied backwards. ... felix

[Philngruvy]

That is all downhill in that article, and some of the hills to these river/rail towns are STEEP! Brakes are mostly the significant item for these wagons. I have no idea what would be reasonable back then besides Budweiser horses tied backwards. ... felix

Maybe they dragged lead pigs from the back of the wagons to slow them down.

[SlowSmokeN]

I think a time is going to come where we are only going to be able to shoot steel as condors could eat the lead out of the indoor range.

[idahoron]

Are electric and hybred cars using more lead? If so that could raise the price. Ron

[beagle]

I'm sure that takes a big bite out of today's production figures./beagle


Are electric and hybred cars using more lead? If so that could raise the price. Ron

[dmize]

Im not sure about other makes but in Ford hybrids the only lead battery in the car is the regular lead/acid starting battery. The storage batteries are either NiCad or lithium Ion,I resent the whole stupid idea and dont really keep up on the changes in battery technology.(Just make darn shure you DO NOT monkey with any orange cables in one)!!!!!!!!!!!!
Also the guy that owns Missouri Bullet Company posted on his Facebook page last fall a link to a story explaining that some company in Europe owns a enormous seemingly borderline illegal amount of lead stocks/supply. Large enough to have some control on its price.

[canebreaker]

How It's made. Last week I watched how lead is mined and processed, in MO.

[EDG]

That is all downhill in that article, and some of the hills to these river/rail towns are STEEP! Brakes are mostly the significant item for these wagons. I have no idea what would be reasonable back then besides Budweiser horses tied backwards. ... felix

Probably a rope wrapped around a tree twice or 3 times was used as a brake.

[Defcon-One]

....PbS is fools gold....

Sorry but PbS is Lead Sulfide (aka: Galena). Fools Gold is actually Iron Pyrite (FeS2).

Maybe PbS is Fools Silver?

[rockrat]

Beat me to it, Defcon-one, on the Fools gold formula

[mehavey]

See: https://www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum.com/arming-the-confederacy-virginias-mineral-resources.html

[Burnt Fingers]

Discussing powder manufacturing during the civil war on another thread led my thought process to this question. Where did all of the lead come from during the civil war?

Now, I know we have lead deposits in Illinois and also along the Mississippi River but the US wasn't industrialized that much at the time of the civil war to produce the quantities needed by both sides to accomodate the ammount of bullets fired and there wasn't any wheel weights. In fact, I'm kinda wondering what lead applications were in use in those days that required lead other than shooting.

One thing about lead, it's always here. It's mined, processed, used and remains with us. Maybe scattered in the ground but still with us.

I'm just wondering why us casters haven't been smart enough to figure out a source to insure a sure supply to our hobby without all the hoopjumps we go through to make boolits./beagle

Lead had a great many applications during the 19th Century. Making pewter, roofing material, makeup, medicine, and many others.

[Jniedbalski]

Check out a story of lead 1948 . In Missouri https://youtu.be/6HhdkkdsvTM it’s been mined since the 1600 in missouri .notice the narrator a young Paul Harvey

[Jniedbalski]

It’s only 50 miles from the house

[cas]

(Zombie thread) :D

Possibly more uses of lead during the civil war than today. Remember before people knew the health issues, it was in all sorts of things.

[wnc435]

Growing up a farm in New Diggings, WI a few miles from Leadmine, WI We had what was called mine tailings piles everywhere huge acre sized piles of mostly shale from the mining process. our pastures were very rolling as in every 20' there was a dip from strip mining. we had 2 such piles on our property didn't, dare try to climb in the summer TOO many snakes! the kind that make noise. also had one shaft that was app. 60' across both ways with the remnants of the elevator system left there. finding Galena was just a matter of looking at the ground for the shiny stuff it was literally everywhere. we would gather 1/4 loads in the wheel barrow start a big fire let It burn to coals put a few loads on top cover with more wood then gravel come back a couple days later after it burned out and dig out the solidified lead and sell to the bait shop in Cuba City, WI. 5 cents a lb. wish I had all that back now. filled in a lot of those dips from the strip mining and it actually would grow grass after that. always had to have our H2O tested we sold Grade A milk and of course beef and hogs. Not one time did we ever have a positive test in the 12 yrs. we were there.

[jdfoxinc]

Electric vehicles are going towards lithium ion batteries.

Several years ago China bought up a lot of lead because 9f their expanding domestic auto market.

[dtknowles]

Don't forget lead for pipes. Pb Plumbum, like for plumbing even in Roman Times.

A while back I posted pictures of some 22 bullets I cast and I put a Galena crystal on the pile. I also have a bigger chunk of galena that is not such a pretty crystal.

Tim

[country gent]

Lead was used a lot simply do to the fact is was easily worked. It casts over easily attained temps with a good finish. Back in the day this was an important consideration. A lot of cups and glasses and bowls were made in the roman days along with spoons and forks. Bronze was available but took much higher temps fluxes that weren't as "friendly" and was much harder to work with. Lead was used for a lot of things. at one time even kids toys were made from it

[samari46]

The Romans even used lead to sweeten many of their wines and drinks. Wonder how many died from lead poisoning. Lead pipes in their baths and for carrying water from the aquaducts to redisdences. And lead balls for their slingers, which was nothing more than a sling that threw lead balls when launched by the sling. And lead based lubricants such as lead based greases used to lubricate the dead centers on lathes. Frank

[gwpercle]

A friend of mine who was a rockhound , tracked down a rare deposit of Louisiana Opal . The songs, dances , permits , requirements , rules , regulations , paperwork and other massive red tape he had to go through to mine a small deposit of Opal was sheer Insanity . He told me there is another larger deposit there but it's not worth all the time money and effort required to get the permits .
So I'm sure if you had a lead deposit...getting it mined would probably not be possible .
He said the impact studies that everyone and their brother wanted done just eat up all your resources and the impact of mining lead would be horrific .
My friend has written two books ...the first on Louisiana Opal and how it was formed and the second on the horror of bureaucratic red tape story it took to get it out of the ground !
And gem opal isn't a health hazard like lead !
Gary

[Froogal]

Don't know if it was mentioned in another reply, but not too long ago lead was used in auto body repair. Before we had that Bondo stuff. Lead was also used to smooth over the seams where body panels met on brand new cars.

[RogerDat]

Don't know if it was mentioned in another reply, but not too long ago lead was used in auto body repair. Before we had that Bondo stuff. Lead was also used to smooth over the seams where body panels met on brand new cars. Have a modest stash of that same lead, including some that is stamped with Chrysler, as well as some Bell System seam solder.

Like the poster said earlier, no shortage to speak of, commercial prices while variable have stayed within a fairly narrow range for many years. What is fading is cheap or free sources. Just not used as much so not as much ends up in the waste stream for us to scrounge for. Panic of a few years ago did drive up prices of lead where we purchase it but that was mostly due to people buying to build up a stash. Those purchases that were essentially reducing future purchases have probably acted to keep prices down a bit.

Right now you can buy foundry bullet lead for between 3 and 4 dollars a pound. If you can scrounge even plain lead or range lead to mix in you can do a lot of casting for not a lot of money. Current spot price is less than 85 cents a pound. Down from a high of around $1.25 as I recall.

[Chill Wills]

Sorry but PbS is Lead Sulfide (aka: Galena). Fools Gold is actually Iron Pyrite (FeS2).

Maybe PbS is Fools Silver?

No. I think he got it correct when they slip out of their lane into politics.
PBS Public Broadcasting Service = Fools Gold

Sorry for this brief interruption.

[Kraschenbirn]

Discussing powder manufacturing during the civil war on another thread led my thought process to this question. Where did all of the lead come from during the civil war...

A substantial quantity came from Jo Davies County, IL. Jo Davies is the most northwestern county in the state with a total population today of under 24,000 and...guess what...the county seat is the city of Galena, the family home of Ulysses S. Grant. In my misspent youth, I spent many a weekend traipsing through the woodlands up there and can't even begin to recall all the closed-up diggings I ran across while hunting whitetail, fox, and coyote. French explorers in the 1690s reported lead being mined by the local tribes and, by the 1850s, there were at least two commercial operations working.

Bill

[uscra112]

The Spanish had lead mines in southeastern Missouri in the 1700s.

https://pages.wustl.edu/files/pages/imce/mnh/seeger2008_history_of_lead_mining_in_mo.pdf

Says the largest concentration of galena in the world is there.

In the Wood River region of Idaho, lead mines were worked right alongside silver mines. Many locations there are still unbuildable because of lead residues. The ore was carried out in huge wagons hauled by team of as many as 40 mules. In Hailey ID they do a re-enactment every summer. Watching the teams negotiate a sharp turn has to be seen to be believed. The pass between the Wood River and the Salmon River is called Galena Summit.

[sharps4590]

I've always understood, as uscra mentioned, that the largest lead deposits in the world are about 50 miles east of me near Potosi and Viburnum, Missouri and, it has been mined since the early 1700's, at least. I want to remember the French were digging it from shallow depressions in the late 1600's, same as Krasch mentioned about NW Illinois. I do believe that it was first mined by the French as the Spanish did not come into possession of "Louisana Territory" until sometime in the mid-late 1700's.

The mining industry in SE Missouri was responsible for the founding of what used to be the "Rolla School of Mines". Later it became the U of Mo.-Rolla. Seems the powers that be can't leave well enough alone and now it is Missouri University of Science and Technology. Whatever it's called, it is one of the top engineering schools in the nation.

[fredj338]

Discussing powder manufacturing during the civil war on another thread led my thought process to this question. Where did all of the lead come from during the civil war?

Now, I know we have lead deposits in Illinois and also along the Mississippi River but the US wasn't industrialized that much at the time of the civil war to produce the quantities needed by both sides to accomodate the ammount of bullets fired and there wasn't any wheel weights. In fact, I'm kinda wondering what lead applications were in use in those days that required lead other than shooting.

One thing about lead, it's always here. It's mined, processed, used and remains with us. Maybe scattered in the ground but still with us.

I'm just wondering why us casters haven't been smart enough to figure out a source to insure a sure supply to our hobby without all the hoopjumps we go through to make boolits./beagle

Lead has been in use for 100s of years before the civil war. Romans made dishes & cups out of it. It was widely used in paints. So finding enough to make bullets, pretty simple by 1860.

[Ziggy]

Missouri S&T student here! Yes, it's a great school, but very difficult. It's pretty cool to see someone else knows about Missouri S&T and it's quality education.

[uscra112]

God grant that such fine tech schools don't get subsumed in the political correctness craze. They must keep turning out the engineers and journeymen who keep the national machinery running; from satellite communications to sewage treatment plants. You can easily see what happens without competent engineers in the collapse of the Venezuelan power and water utilities, not to mention their oil production and refineries. We don't get any adulation, or even acknowledgement for it, we just do the jobs we trained to do. When I told my engineer Dad that I was going to follow the track myself, he said "it's a fascinating profession, but you'll never have cocktail party conversation.". Looking back, I can fully appreciate how right he was.

[kevin c]

Like the senior non coms in the armed forces. The officers dream up the plans and give the orders. The sergeants make it happen. The politicos and the CEOs outside the military similarly get all the attention and credit for what the engineers actually have to figure out how to make happen.

[uscra112]

Great analogy!

[kevin c]

Problem:

Given one platoon, appropriate tools, a twenty foot pole and a coil of rope, what is the fastest way of constructing a flagpole?

Answer:

Lieutenant: "Sergeant, I need a flagpole right here and right now."

Sergeant: "Yes, sir!"

I've always admired engineers. I enjoyed the math, chemistry, and physics classes I took in high school and college, and have an interest in science and technology even now, but to know that stuff down to the last detail rather than just in the general sense I have, and to apply it to practical and literally critical problem solving on a daily basis really impresses me.

My college classmates in the engineering schools were viewed as slide rule (the TI "pocket" science calculators were just beginning to show up back then) carrying nerds, but, like you're saying, those nerds make the world go 'round.

[uscra112]

Ah, slide rules. In high school we carried them in leather scabbards on our belts, like gunfighters.

The slide rule enabled the aviation age. Even the Space Shuttle was designed largely using slide rules.

I'm certain I still have mine; an aluminum Keuffel & Esser, still in its' leather case.

One career trap in being an engineer - specialization. As one wry joke puts it - "Engineers tend to learn more and more about less and less, until they know absolutely everything about nothing". I managed to avoid this by being stuck (involuntarily) into management early on.

But we have our heroes. Mine is "Kelly" Johnson, who saved Lockheed's bacon in 1933, straight out of college, and went on to guide the development of the P-38, the F-80, the Constellation, the F-104, and eventually the legendary "Blackbird".

[lightman]

I remember as a kid growing up in Arkansas that someone found a few cannon balls in a field. Also remember stumbling on a CSA cemetary.

A good friend has a couple of cannon balls that either him or his dad found in their garden. They lived near the South side of Pine Bluff, Ar. About 40 blocks from the court house where some fighting took place. Another friend that metal detects as a hobby has found lots of round balls and minnie balls around where I live. Another detector that I know knows where there was a hospital site and has found crude instruments and some bullets with what looks like teeth marks on them. I don't want to even think about that! I have hiked the Boy Scout trails at Vicksburg, Shiloh and Pea Ridge and seen minnie balls laying in the bottoms of ditches and washouts.

And kind of off topic; I've found what looked like mushroomed small caliber bullets at a few of the sites where I find arrowheads. Research shows them to be the lead from lead headed nails used on tin roofs after the nail rusted away. Many of my head hunting sites had several generations of Indians and later on, settlers, chosen for the same reasons that the first Indians chose the spot. (high ground near a source of water)

[woodbutcher]

:D Most interesting thread.Thanks to all who have posted.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo