How do you now the correct size PP bullet??

[catkiller45]

Deleted:violin:

[Southern Son]

Catkiller,
I take it you are going to be using Black Powder for this? If so, then the majority of shooters try to find a boolit that comes to .450 +/- 0.001 WHEN WRAPPED WITH THE PAPER YOU WILL BE USING TO PATCH THE BOOLIT. If you have a boolit that is cast at .451, when you wrap it, it will go .458 +/- 0.002, which means that the boolit will have to be in the case, not up in the bore. I am using a BACO Money Boolit that runs about .444, and when I patch it, it is about .451, which is a tight fit in the bore (I have to wipe between shots, or chambering the next round won't happen).

Some have success with loading to groove diameter, but they are the odd men out.

[Seth Hawkins]

You need to know the bore dimensions, and the thickness of the paper you plan to use.

[6.5 mike]

Seth, for a barrel that is 0.451 x 0.4575 using #25 paper I would need a mould that drops at 0.443 ? Or am I still missing something.

[Seth Hawkins]

If that paper measures 0.002" thick, yes.

(0.002" x 4) + 0.443" = 0.451"

You can "adjust" the diameter of the bullet a little by varying the alloy and temp. I would suggest a good quality adjustable mould. I have one from KAL that is worth every penny I paid for it.

[6.5 mike]

Thanks, now it makes better sense. I have looked at KALs moulds, when I get ready to try this that's the one I figure to get. Are you using his handles or something else ?

[catkiller45]

So from what I am trying understand is that the bullet is riding on top of the barrel grooves then and not really contacting into the lands..????

I have some paper from Buffalo arms and a template-which I got a few years ago when I got interested in the PP bullet..But that was as far as I ever got..

A sever heart attack put a stop to a lot of my plans,but I am back in shooting some again,only with the GG bullets....Got rid of all my casting equip. as well....So I would have to buy the bullets to try and see if I really want to go this route,befor spending too much...

I got some bullets from Montana Bullets-I think it was them,,,And they,with the patch measure at .458 and I thought this was too big from what I read?? Damn I have a head thicker than a 2x4 anyway....lol John

[powderburnerr]

the paper should be measured for thickness instead of weight,
25# is usually really thick,
When loaded the bore sized bullet will fit snugly on top of the lands and it is supposed to be soft enough to bump up and forn a seal.
you can shoot groove sized bulletsas well . There is a different set of problems associated with them ..
As a general rule the papermill 9# paper will work well with a 442 bullet , It will load easier with a 440 bullet and will shoot close to the same ,depending on alloy. most times soft is best unless you get into the real pointy shapes,
when you get larger you need to use thinner paper like seth cole 7&8# which is 1- 1.5 tho thick.

[montana_charlie]

you can shoot groove sized bulletsas well . There is a different set of problems associated with them .
Can you name them?

CM

[montana_charlie]

Seth, for a barrel that is 0.451 x 0.4575 using #25 paper I would need a mould that drops at 0.443 ? Or am I still missing something.
Using your paper, go ahead and patch something. It can be a bullet, a bolt, or a drill bit, but patch something cylindrical.

Measure the diameter of the object when naked, and again after patching.
That will give you the amount of 'increase in diameter' that can be expected from your paper.

With that information in hand, decide what diameter bullet you will need for the bore of your rifle.
If two wraps of your paper adds .007" to a cylinder, a .444 bullet will patch up to .451".

Trial wrapping is much more instructional than measuring paper for thickness.

CM

[Lead pot]

You cant go by the # weight on paper. I have paper that is #7 that is .0018 thick and I have 9# that is .0014 thick 8 1/2# .0019" 16# .0021".
I paper that has 1000 sheets in the ream and 500 sheets, so go figure.

When you go out looking for paper get a micrometer with you not a caliper they have a tendency to lie depending how tight you squeeze them and measure the paper.

[catkiller45]

FWIW--The paper I got from Buffalo Arms 5 years ago or so
is 9lb onion skin and mics around .0025

So what size does this tell you I should use? I am guess
maybe a .444 when patched it should be .454 ??

So I would need a smaller bullet,correct ot not...

What are these dies I read about that you can get
to size the bullet smaller?

[powderburnerr]

I figured you would whine about that statement Charlie ,I just couldnt come up with a different word at the time ,that was politically correct.
I can name the problems . but chose not to, as it just adds more information than one needs at one time , and the thread didnt seem to be going that way.


however you personally choose to shoot your bullets , I really dont care, and if you want to tell him how to shoot them groove size , be my guest.
I dont shoot your way so I dont care to comment on it , other than it can be done

[montana_charlie]

FWIW--The paper I got from Buffalo Arms 5 years ago or so is 9lb onion skin and mics around .0025

So what size does this tell you I should use? I am guess
maybe a .444 when patched it should be .454 ??
If you have enough of that paper to last your lifetime, go ahead and use it to establish your mould dimension. If you don't have that much, you will probably be looking for a new mould ... or off on one of those never-ending paper searches.

Buffalo arms may not carry that exact same paper, anymore. But, if they do, you should get enough to see you through.

As for bullet diameter, wrap something with your paper.
Only then will you know how much it adds to a diameter measurement.
I bet it won't add ten thousandths ...

CM

[montana_charlie]

I can name the problems . but chose not to, as it just adds more information than one needs at one time , and the thread didnt seem to be going that way.
In his post immediately above yours, Catkiller45 said, "I got some bullets from Montana Bullets-I think it was them,,,And they,with the patch measure at .458 and I thought this was too big from what I read??"

Since he ended with a double question mark, it appeared he was asking a question.
When you started in on groove diameter bullets, I expected you were all set to answer his question. Or, to put it another way, the thread DID seem to be going that way, and it looked like you were about to help him out.

Not to push you into anything, though. I'll just back off and let you shine for him.

CM

[Seth Hawkins]

Thanks, now it makes better sense. I have looked at KALs moulds, when I get ready to try this that's the one I figure to get. Are you using his handles or something else ?

I'm using handles by CabineTree (http://www.castingstuff.com/cabinetree_loading_products.htm). These handles are great. They're well worth the money. I couldn't believe how much of a difference they made. Once they're adjusted properly I get better bullets, and suffer less fatigue, which means I can cast longer. I can't recall who I bought them from. It might have been Shiloh.

[powderburnerr]

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So from what I am trying understand is that the bullet is riding on top of the barrel grooves then and not really contacting into the lands..????

gosh charlie this question of his has 4 ? marks , whats a fella to do?(same post)

[catkiller45]

In his post immediately above yours, Catkiller45 said, "I got some bullets from Montana Bullets-I think it was them,,,And they,with the patch measure at .458 and I thought this was too big from what I read??"

Since he ended with a double question mark, it appeared he was asking a question.
When you started in on groove diameter bullets, I expected you were all set to answer his question. Or, to put it another way, the thread DID seem to be going that way, and it looked like you were about to help him out.

Not to push you into anything, though. I'll just back off and let you shine for him.

CM

I can not use those bullets from Montana bullets..They measure to .458 so how in hell can anyone shoot them in a 45-70..Isn't the paper gonna just rip right off..They can't be seated out very far the way they are...I am aiming for a .441 mold and patch it up to .447 .448 .449....in that area...Am I correct about this...John

[Don McDowell]

John you're spot on. Those .458's need to be seated quite deep.
Your assessment of diameter is also quite good.
Take powderburner up on his offer, and in your 45-70 ask him to keep the length to 1.35-1.4[smilie=s:

[powderburnerr]

I had a post editited it and it left,,,,,,,,,,,,,
cat ,I have 440s and 442s if you want some samples drop me a PM with your address and length you would like to try.Dean

[catkiller45]

PowderBurner====Tell me what in hell difference does it make how many question marks I use.
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????? lol

And Yes I would very much like to try some of your bullets,which brings me to another question.????????.LOL

How does one determine how long you want this bullet to be ???? John

[6.5 mike]

Seth, I've read nothing but good things about Gussy's handles. Need to order a set, thanks again.

MC, I was just using that as an example, know how to adjust OD's with different paper thickness. And yes the listed weight may not be the what the paper measures out to in reality. Thanks for the info, if I ever get off these boats I'm going to try this black stuff when I have enough time to do it right.

[powderburnerr]

cat it really isnt your ? marks ,
somebody felt slighted when I mentioned that there may be different paramaters to load your groove size bullets,than bore size , and that I hadnt answered your last question asked and chose to only answer the first part of your post,it is no biggie , I sent you a PM with my thoughts on the subject so as not to slight him again .
The twist rate and powder charge kinda determines what works best , it needs to spin the bullet fast enough to get to the target and match the twist To keep it balanced , sometimes what works in a long case doesnt work quite as well in a shorter case,Don shoots a lot of the short case loads , and has found the 1.3 in bullet is better for that.I am partial to a 1.5 bullet but then I shoot it in a long case with 100 + gns of powder ,,, this is just an example and isnt condoning any load or bullet ,

[catkiller45]

So tell oh great one....what will be need in a 1 in 18 twist...[smilie=2:

[Seth Hawkins]

I'm not sure what your experience level is, but there's a lot of good info here: The Los Angeles Silhouette Club (http://www.lasc.us/). They have an online collaborative document that is updated on occasion that is an excellent resource: Cast Bullets For Beginner and Expert (http://www.lasc.us/IndexBrennan.htm). Chapter 2.3 discusses twist, and should help answer your question. There is a range of bullet weight/length that can be stabilized by a given twist rate. This range is usually broad enough - especially in these larger calibers - that it pays to have an adjustable mould. The adjustable mould allows you to find the weight/length that works best in your rifle, with your load, at the distances you want to shoot.

Did the light bulb just light up? Shooting paper patch bullets has it's advantages over grease groove bullets - especially if you have a good quality adjustable mould that drops bullets in the length/weight range that works with your barrel's twist rate.;)

That adjustable mould gives you lots of options...

[RMulhern]

PowderBurner====Tell me what in hell difference does it make how many question marks I use.
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????? lol

And Yes I would very much like to try some of your bullets,which brings me to another question.????????.LOL

How does one determine how long you want this bullet to be ???? John

catkiller

It would be wise for you to make a real good forum friend with powderburner because in a nutshell....he's probably forgotten more about how to shoot PP bullets through a BPCR than most folks ever learn!:bigsmyl2::razz: