Headspace procedure, and smithy high prices.

[littlejack]

Hey again fellas:
I have a question about headspacing, that I know someone or several will be
able to answer for me.
A friend of mine who owns a rifle that does not want to group well ask me if I
could make it shoot accurately. I said that I would give it a go. I did not want to
miss a chance to go to the range for a few sessions. But, who needs a reason
right?
Anyway, it is a Interarms Mark X action chambered to 30-06, with a 24" light
barrell.
I brought the rifle home, along with about 60 rounds of mixed ammo. Some fired,
some reloaded, and a few factory. The reloader was unknown. I pulled ALL of
the bullets
Some of the fired ammo had protruding primers. Here's where the headspace
question comes in. I know that primers will back out if the load is too light.
Is there any other reason for protruding primers OTHER than headspace?
Now, about the smithy high prices.
I contacted one of my local smiths, that has worked on a couple of my firearms
before. He wanted 25.00 to close the bolt on the Go No-go guages, to check the
headspace. That is rediculous.
ANY INFORMATION WILL BE GREATLY APPRECIATED. THANK YOU FELLAS.
Jack

[Mooseman]

well either buy or rent gauges or pay the man with them !

[turtlezx]

i checked headspace before on a old carcano 6.5.
super glued different size shims to the rim face.( over the primer pocket).
Using a new shell case ,basicly making my own GO NO GO gauge.
Can"t remember the acceptable amount in .001" between go and no go
at this time.

[DCM]

Nothing personal here, but $25 is very reasonable.

The man most likely paid more than that for his gauges, has to pay for his overhead and has to eat too. Often there is more to it than just running the gauge in and out also, if he really wants to get a good feel for what is going on. He prolly would easily spot other problems too.

Gotta agree with Mooseman!

[HollowPoint]

Being a chronic Do-It-Myselfer, I would opt for checking the head spacing myself.

If all I was wanting to do is rule out head spacing as a contributing factor and nothing more, I'd
make myself a set of Go-No-Go Gauges using your existing brass as has been suggested already.

You just need to know the head spacing dimensions for your particular caliber.

I use Scotch tape myself. I'll generally measure its thickness then stick as many layers of it onto the base of my brass as is needed to bring me to the desired dimension. Of course I trim it to the diameter of the base of my brass.

It's hardly scientific but it gives you a good idea if head spacing could be the culprit or not.

HollowPoint

[John Taylor]

Pore mans head space gauge, masking tape on the base of a new factory round. With one layer you should feel a drag on the bolt or not be able to close it. If you have two or more layers on a bolt gun you got head space problems. The 30-06 is one of the military cartridges that has a loose chamber designed into the gun. You can get a match chamber reamer but it will still be loose in the body ( I got one). Head space and an oversize chamber are two different things. Head space can be corrected by setting the barrel back.
I just spent $25 worth of my time telling you how to check your head space. Have a nice day.

[littlejack]

Thank you gentlemen:
All information and suggestions being weighed and processed.
So far the consensus is 50/50. Two posters for paying the 25.00 to have the headspace
checked, and two posters to check the headspace myself.
As Hollow Point says, I also am a chronic "do-it-yourselfer". Not that I am cheap, but if there
is a way I can do something for myself, why pay someone else to do it. I was a fabricator for
37 years of my life. My motto is "if I cannot buy it, I will build it. If I cannot build it, I don't
need it".
I will check the headspace myself. If there is excessive headspace, I can size the brass
accourdingly to fit the chamber.
Thank you all again.
Jack

[littlejack]

Thank you John. That make 3 for do-it-yourself.
I just spent 25.00 of my time deciding which way to go with this project. My time is worth as
much as anyones.
Jack

[felix]

Just make the brass fit anyway you know how with the tools you have. BR folks are required to do that! Have the smithy redo the gun when the GOOD brass on hand cannot be adjusted properly. ... felix

[akajun]

BUy the guages, do it yourself, It only takes a minute and you will use the guages again.

Another issue that creeping primers can indicate is that you are sizing your brass too far back. If you have teh Hornady/stoney point headspace micrometer set measure some fired cases, then adjust your sizing die accordingly.

[littlejack]

OK fellas, here are the numbers.
I used two different factory loaded Remington cartridges. I ran the procedure once with each
cartridge. I used .004 blue masking tape because it was handy.
I removed the extractor claw from the bolt.
The cartridge chambered with no tape, no resistance.
The cartridge chambered with one layer of tape, no resistance, .004.
The cartridge chambered with two layers of tape, no resistance, .008.
The cartridge chambered with three layers of tape, just slight resistance, .012.
The cartridge chambered with four layers of tape, more resistance and tape pressed into the
ejector slot on the face of the bolt, .016.
This tells me that there is .012 clearance, too much.
What are your thought/opinions?
Thank you all for the input.
Jack

[Char-Gar]

I don't think much of the tape idea. Factory rounds are are designed to freely chamber and not to measure the headspace. Unless you have a way to measure from the tape covered head to the datum line of the case shoulder, you are not measuring headspace.

Headspace guages are precision ground to measure the headspace of the chamber. Buy the no-go guage (which is all you need) or pay the man. The price he is asking is very reasonable.

[Jammer Six]

You don't have gauges, you don't know how to gauge the weapons headspace without them, you're not licensed, you don't know other causes for high primers, and yet you agreed to "fix" your buddies weapon?

And you think twenty five dollars is too high a price?

Have I got all that right?

[dsmjon]

You don't have gauges, you don't know how to gauge the weapons headspace without them, you're not licensed, you don't know other causes for high primers, and yet you agreed to "fix" your buddies weapon?

And you think twenty five dollars is too high a price?

Have I got all that right?

QFT.

Buy cheap, buy twice could be adapted to fit here.

It's one thing to fix/diag an issue on your own, without hiring someone else. It's another to do so based off internet advise.

Headspace is a critical dimension, the owner inferred you have knowledge of this subject matter, else I would wager he'd have spent the $25.

At a minimum, ask the owner to cover the $25 "sublet".

[405]

Too much headspace is too much headspace. Popped out primers DON'T cause excess headspace they can simply reveal it. 3-4 layers of masking tape which may or may not indicate .012" headspace still seems too loose to me. While I don't think the masking tape is the most precise way, I do think in this case it is indicating too much. The pitfall here is that excess headspace may not be the primary culprit causing poor accuracy. But at this point I'd probably pay the 25 and have the smith check it. Headspace resolution first- accuracy second.

[Larry Gibson]

1st you have to make sure the cartridge headspace is correct and I learned a long time ago not to assume it is, especially with someone's reloads. I seriously doubt there is a headspace issue with that commercial Mark X.

As to the $25 fee for checking headspace consider the time the gunsmith has already talked to you, the time spent logging the rifle in (if you leave it). the time actually measuring the headspace, the $s he has in the guages and the time he'll spend logging the rifle out and listening to you before you leave. He is trying to make a living and $25 is reasonable for the time he'll spend. Talk to a lawyer and ask them to do something simple like check your will, talk to a doctor and have your BP cheched......see what that cost you......

If you really want to check the headspace it's worth that....or get a Stoney point tool and you can very closely measure the headspace with fired or formed cases your self.

Larry Gibson

[Char-Gar]

Larry.. I do not think that Mark-X came from the factory with headspace issues. However, I have seen rifles that fools have fired with red line loads, set back the bolt lugs and create headspace issues. The OP can do what he wants, but I would.

1. Buy a No-Go guage. Brownells sell Clymer guages for $25.00.
2. A cheaper way is to buy a Wilson case guage. You can resize the case far enough without touching the shoulder for the case to plop into the guage. A look at the steps on the head end of the guage will tell you if that case if fired in a chamber that is too long or not.

In either of the two methods, you will still have the tooling when it is all over, and both are good things to have around the shop. I have headspace and Wilson case guages for the calibers I shoot most often. (30-06, 30-30, 30-40,.308, and 8X57). I have quite a few more, but I would have to go look to remember what they are.

I am very reluctant to disagree with these kind of issues with John Taylor as he is a true professional when it comes to gunsmithing. The tape thing may have some use for folks that know their way around rifles, but the OP doesn't seem to be that kind of fellow. If it were us, we would just fireform cases to the chamber and either partial or neck size the cases from there on and do just fine...end of backed out primers and that is that.

I think I know my way around rifles,but I won't work on friends guns. I have in the past, but have decided that is a very bad idea.

[littlejack]

Again gentlemen, your opinions are appreciated.
I do not plan to give the rifle back to my friend with him believing that I have cured all of the
problems of the rifle. I am much smarter than that, and I DO think a lot more of my friends
than that.
I do believe that most of the accuracy issues are to do with the barrell/ action/
stock fit.
The reason that I did bring up the headspace issue, WAS because of the protruding/backed
out primers in the cases that were given to me with the other loaded rounds.
They may have not even be shot in that particular rifle.
I believe that some of you are assuming that I would would return the rifle back to my friend
without letting him know that there may be a headspace issue.
When I agreed to work on this rifle, the headspace was not the issue. I agreed to take a look
at it and do what I could to make it shoot accurately.
My question for this group was not to try to determine ABSOLOUTLY that the rifle had
headspace, but to reveal the fact there could well be headspace. It will be up to the owner
to decide wheather he wants to have it checked or not.
Jack

[HollowPoint]

Regardless of wether your testing method was scientific enough or not, if you were just wanting to check if the Head Spacing might me a contributing factor to the symptoms you stated earlier; from the results of what some might see as less than adequate, I'd say that Head Spacing may be a contributing factor.

So the next logical step would be to have a professional take a look at the rifle. Since it belongs to someone else, perhaps that "Someone else" should be the one to take it in for a look-see.

This means you wouldn't have to dip into your own pocket.

This is an excellent forum for getting good input in situations like yours. Unfortunately you'll inevitably get some who's input can be (although logical and opinionated) not exactly what you wanted to hear; or stated in a manner that's less than polite.

HollowPoint

[Jammer Six]

I'm still not clear on why you're working on this rifle at all when you're not a gunsmith.

[Char-Gar]

If only some of the primers are backed out and you don't even know if they were fired in that particular rifle, you really have nothing to go on.

Fire some factory ammo and if the primers back out then it is time to wonder why. Until then even the thought of headspace is premature.

[Mooseman]

You CANNOT check headspace properly with cartridges or tape of any kind , and for anyone to tell you to do that is irresponsible and just plain bad info.
It is Bubba gunsmithing...and not safe or accurate,
There is a reason we use a Hardened SET of gauges that are machined to SAAMI specs. They do not flex or compress like brass or tape will. All cartridges are not created equal , just at a minimum for chambering in all rifles
The only acceptable way if you only have a go gauge is to cut metal feeler gauge pieces and a dab of grease to hold it on the go gauge for getting true Readings of measurement.
You never mix the gauges either as different brands may vary.
You can Rent gauges from Reamer rental companies for about 8 bucks + deposit and shipping.
Since a gun is dealing with a high pressure propellant to work either do the job right, or dont do it at all and let a qualified gunsmith do what he is trained to do.

Rich

[HollowPoint]

I hate it when this happens; A perfectly legitimate inquiry gets skewed by assumptions, opinions and personal preferences.

This is why I rarely post any more inquires or projects here any more. If I do post my projects, I do it only after I've completed and tested
them for safety and reliability. That way I can just sit back and smile as I read the Nay-Sayer's comments talking about this, that and the other.

In a public forum, you just can't get away from that kind of thing. You'll generally get the type of answers you're looking for but, you may have to
wad through all the replies you weren't looking for before you get to the good stuff.



HollowPoint

[Char-Gar]

Littlejack... Your ire is misdirected. There were facts from which I drew my conclusion about your experience with rifles.

1. You said a gunsmith charged to much to check the headspace of your rifle, which indicates to me you didn't know how to do it yourself.
2. You said, there were various rounds and cases that came with the rifle, and you said only some of the had protruding primers and you didn' know if they were fired in the rifle or not.
3. You asked for help an input, which indicates you were somewhat lost about the situation.
4. You did the tape thing and came up with a number and this asked the significance of this number in regard to headspace. This indicates to me you are clueless about headspace.

All of these things indicate to me that "you don't know your way around rifles". I think that is a fair conclusion to draw from the facts. It may be somewhat harsh and not comforting to your feelings, but it is accurate, at least in my estimation.

Learning is made much more difficult when a person take umbrage when someone else point out there is a need to learn. Brused feeling are often part of the learning curve. We have all taken our knocks along the way. So relax, I didn't call you an idiot or a fool, just someone that needed more experience. I took much worse back in the day, trying to be a young cowboy on a ranch with experienced hands. You took their guff or got off the ranch. But if you stayed and earned their respect, they would bend over backward to help you. This is the way things work in the company of men.

This is a good board, but if you step on your own weenie, don't blame others for pointing that out. So swallow hard, man up and move on down the road of learning. Don't waste your time and energy being angry with the likes of me. That is my wife's job and she doesn't appreciate others horning in on her business.

[turtlezx]

UUUUUUUUUUUUUU weeeeeeeeeeeee off and runnin with this one:kidding:

[Mooseman]

The discussion here will remain Civil or it will be locked down...Period.

There is only one way to do things when it comes to guns...THE RIGHT WAY.
That is the lesson I first learned as an Apprentice Gunsmith.
Safety for the shooter as well as the guy shooting next to you is imperative in
our sport. You can be maimed or killed with a worn out or defective gun.
Please take that to heart, and if you arent a Trained Gunsmith , dont pretend to be one. Let us professionals do what we do best.

Rich

[swheeler]

LJ; just buy yourself a set of 06 go-no go gauges, then you will be set to check headspace on 22-06,6mm-06, 25-06,6.5-06,.270 win,7mm-06,30-06,8mm-06,338-06,35whelen,375-06, and maybe a few I missed. A good investment for peace of mind! I think through Brownells with a licence they cost me 28.00 per set(14.00 per gage) not a high price for an eyeball or finger.

[swheeler]

Or just look here..............http://www.reamerrentals.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=30%2D06%2Eg

[littlejack]

I was told by the moderator that I was not being civil with my response to Char-Gar, so my post got deleted.
I did not use any foul language. I did not call anyone ony names. I did not cuss at anyone.
I was told that I have to take the replies as they come.
I do not claim to be a gunsmith, never have. I couldn't check the headspace with a no-go guage, because I didn't have one.
I wanted to know if there was an alternet way to check to see if there could be headspace.
There was, the tape method. I realize that this is not a perfect way to check for headspace, but it would give a person a reason to have the headspace checked correctly.
I believe that persons here are reading things into my posts that I am not even talking about, and then stating accusations that should not even be in the conversation.
Believe me guys. I am not going to blow myself or my friend up. I have taken everything into consideration that has been stated as opinions here.
I thought this foruim was one to learn from. I have gained plenty of good information and tips from the members of this forum. There are some very top quality folks here.
Then, there are the folks that think they have the right to critisize someone for asking a question that he had to learn himself from someone, sometime.
I am so sorry that this thread has gotten to the point where I have to take the replies as is, and am not allowed to defend myself.
Jack

[littlejack]

You people are ruthless.
I only took the rifle from a friend to work on an accuracy issue he was having. I have accurized all of my rifles. I am still here. All of my rifles will shoot 1 moa or less.
I noticed signs that may have questioned the headspace. I cannot check the headspace, I have no guages. I was requesting help and opinions.
I have worked on the inletting of stocks. I have glassed in several actions, and floated several barrels. I can make a rifle shoot that will not. This was my intention for this rifle.

I have been raked over the pervervial coals for doing something I haven't even done.
I am asking the moderator to stop this thread. I do not need this kind of help.
Jack

[Pavogrande]

There seems to be nothing so gratifing on the internet as being able to tell the other fellow he is dumb and not receive a knuckle sandwich , except, perhaps it is riding a very high horse.

[Jammer Six]

Uhm, actually, you took a rifle to work on when you're not a gunsmith.

What part of that are you now claiming not to have done?

[Char-Gar]

Littlejack... Don't let it get to you. I was not offended by your post. I realize a fellow sometimes feels the need to rise to his own defense. I have been chewed out plenty in my life and I have deserved a good portion of it.

There is nothing I nor anybody else on this board can say that will take away anything from who you are. We have no power to do that and I for one have no desire to do so. So there is no need to defend yourself. You are not under attack, just a bunch of guys passing time on the internet and dealing with the issue you raised, albeit not in a gentle way.

I have no problem with a fellow wanting to work on another man's stock and no problem with asking questions about headspace. You have done nothing wrong. Just grow a little tougher skin and move on.

Folks here are not ruthless. They are just honest. We live in a PC world where folks are not allowed to speak their mind if it hurts somebody's feelings. This is a place where we can speak our minds in a civil manner I am told. It is a little rough and tumble at times, but that is just the way of the world.

Rest assured there is nothing I would say on this board that I would not say to your face. But face to face we could see the expression and hear the tone of voice. If we could do that, my comments would seem far less critical and more in the spirit of helpfulness.

Best wishes to you in every aspect of your life.

[bearcove]

Pore mans head space gauge, masking tape on the base of a new factory round. With one layer you should feel a drag on the bolt or not be able to close it. If you have two or more layers on a bolt gun you got head space problems. The 30-06 is one of the military cartridges that has a loose chamber designed into the gun. You can get a match chamber reamer but it will still be loose in the body ( I got one). Head space and an oversize chamber are two different things. Head space can be corrected by setting the barrel back.
I just spent $25 worth of my time telling you how to check your head space. Have a nice day.

Thank You John,

Simply put for a simple problem.

[littlejack]

Char-Gar:
I accept you post in friendship. I will work on the skin thickness.
Jack

[nanuk]

Pore mans head space gauge....


You CANNOT check headspace properly with cartridges or tape of any kind , and for anyone to tell you to do that is irresponsible and just plain bad info.
It is Bubba gunsmithing...and not safe or accurate,...... let a qualified gunsmith do what he is trained to do.

Rich

gotta love a difference of opinion. So, Mooseman, are you saying Mr Taylor is a Bubba? and being irresponsible? I mean, as a "gunsmith" this IS what he is trained to do, No?


You don't have gauges, you don't know how to gauge the weapons headspace without them, you're not licensed, you don't know other causes for high primers, and yet you agreed to "fix" your buddies weapon?

Have I got all that right?

no, you don't have that right


I'm still not clear on why you're working on this rifle at all when you're not a gunsmith.

I check headspace all the time on used rifle purchases, I don't consider that WORKING on them. Is it wrong for someone to ask for help on how to learn to do so?


Uhm, actually, you took a rifle to work on when you're not a gunsmith.

What part of that are you now claiming not to have done?

I can't see where he has done ANY work on this rifle. But he does do accurizing. Would you be admonishing Everyone and Anyone who would bed a rifle, NOT to do so as they are not smiths?



....I will work on the skin thickness.
Jack

You need one around here sometimes.

[John Taylor]

Boy, there seems to be a lot of junk going on here.
I do admit that the tape idea is not as accurate as head space gauges but it will show a problem if there is one. I do have a "new" head space gauge that is so far off that it can't be used. I should have sent it back but it has been to many years now. Some times they mess up making the gauges (Foster).

I worked on guns for years as a hobby before I had to make a living at it, at what point did I become a professional gunsmith? I did have the privilege of working for two older gunsmith along the way but never went to a gun smith school. I shouldn't say never, I took a class in collage but ended up teaching the teacher. Some times the best way to learn is by doing. There is an old saying, "those who can, do, those who can't, teach."
I don't understand all the bad mouthing that has been going on here. Does it make a person feel better about themselves if they can put someone ells down? I always thought this was a place to help other learn and learn a few thing myself along the way.

Some thoughts on the 30-06, most of the time if there is head space the primer will still be flush with the base of the cartridge. With cartridges loaded to 50,000 psi the brass will stretch til the base is flush with the bolt. The good old 30-30 will show a protruding primer every time if it has head space because the pressure is usually to low to stretch the brass much. Hand loads in the 30-06 that are a little light will have the primer sticking out if there is a head space problem.

Not all factory rifles have the correct head space. I got one in this week that is almost new and has a very bad head space problem. I don't know how it left the factory in this condition but it appears to have about .020" more than it needs.

[Mooseman]

I trained under Master Gunsmith Jack Lanning as an apprentice and journeyman for 10 years in Central Florida before Becoming a Master Gunsmith and Buying him out when he retired. I learned the right way to do things as he would have kicked my rear end if I tried to shortcut procedures. He was Old school gunsmith using more hand tools and stones than equipment. I learned Machining, metal work, refinishing, stock work, welding, fabrication, fitting and designing in my Training.
I cannot think of another Gunsmith I know that would use anything But the proper tool or gauge for a job , just like a Machinist or Mechanical engineer.
There are "Gunsmiths" that are Gun butchers...I have seen their work and had to straighten it out. Not all gunsmiths are qualified and I know a Machinist who is very educated that ruined a $16,000.00 gun because he was NOT a gunsmith.
I have repaired guns and Built guns, collected, and shot competetively for over 35 years now. I have worked for Class 2 Manufacturers and done specialized welding for other Gunsmiths , as well as having had my own businesses in Florida and Alaska. Due to health and financial issues I am basically retired now and only work on my guns or guns I buy that need my touch. From restoring antiques to custom accurizing My reputation here is well known. I teach anyone who is willing to learn.
I currently have successfully redesigned the Mosin Nagant bolt to cock on close with an added safety feature that has passed every test .
Enough about me ,
What I must say there is bad information everywhere on the internet and some is even on this forum. It boils my blood when I see people tell other people to do Something that just isn't the right way to do it. Some people may get offended at what I say but I know that the TRUE Professional Qualified Gunsmiths will agree with me 100%. There is NO substitute for American craftsmanship and Proper Job procedures. More and more people are working on their own guns and some are butchering up guns that will no longer be valuable in the future and gunsmiths are struggling to make a living because of it. I wont blow smoke at you if you ask me a question...I will tell you what I know and help you if I can. IF you can Prove me wrong, I welcome it, because I plan on learning till the day I die .
Otherwise,
Leave the Bull manure on the boots outside the front door !!!

Rich
Master Gunsmith
( and Proud of it !)
This is what you use to headspace...http://www.rifleshootermag.com/2010/09/23/gunsmithing_headspace_0612/

[nanuk]

Mooseman: I sure wish I had had the opportunity to become a "Smith" when I was young. I do respect your abilities. That is why I too ask questions about gunsmith stuff, cause it is near impossible to get work done around here.

Back to the OP: What have you come up with? if the firearm does indeed have excessive headspace, there has to be a reason. Perhaps it would be a worthwhile quest to have a competent gunsmith check it out to find out why.

I'm sure there could be several reasons, and some may make the gun unusable, until corrected, or if not correctable, may make the gun a wall-hanger.

[nanuk]

Mooseman: thanks for that link. a Good read.

according to that article, if a rifle fails a No-Go, it is still perfectly safe.

would you agree? I'd be concerned as to what caused it to fail, and want a proper inspection.
am I just being too paranoid?
We are talking about Modern Firearms here, not Milsurps that have fired who knows what that may have stretched.

[Char-Gar]

I am not Mooseman, but I would like to take a run at the issue raised by nanuk from his reading of the linked article.

The question is what is meant by "perfectly safe". If a chamber fails a No-Go guage and is not so long as to cause the case to rupture on firing because it has reached it's stretch limits, then nothing bad will happen.

If the case reloaded and is FL sized and the shoulder set back to standard specs and it is fired again in the long chamber it will stretch back to fit the chamber. Do this enough times and there will be a head seperation with all of the gas turned loose in the action. Then the issue of safety will depend on the design of the action and where it sends all of that nasty gas.

So if a rifle fails the No-Go it may be safe to fire with the original round, but if you are a reloader and don't take that case stretching into consideration and compensate for it, then there will be problems down the road shortly.

I still have issues with "perfectly" safe. If the rifles won't pass the No-Go guage it may be so long that even the first round fired will rupture. The only way to know that is to use the Field Guage. It it fails the Field Guage, don't fire it under any circumstances.

The Field Guage was the one carried in the field by military armorers. If the rifle would take a field guage, the rifle was taken out of service right then and there.

So, if the rifle fails the No-Go and you don't use the Field Guage you are living on the edge.

I only had one case seperation and that was about 1961 in a good issue 03 Springfield firing Pre-WWII factory Remington Palma Match ammo. The cases were bad in that batch and one came apart when I fired it. The recoil felt funny and there was gas drifting out the "Hatcher Hole" in the left from receiver ring. Whisps of gas also went around the bolt. When I looked down the striker was still in full cock position. I looked at the target through the scope and sure enough there was a bullet hole there, but a good 6 inches out of the group.

Some of the gas had come back through the firing pin hole and blown the striker back to full cock. I had on shooting glasses so I did not suffer any harm, nor did the rifle. But, I learned just how much force that gas has and how it can go into all kinds of nooks and crannies of the rifle action. It was an experience I did not want to repeat.

That is why I keep a good supply of headspace guages in my shop. If a rifle fails a No-Go guage, I take that seriously and will not fire it until I have extablished for certain just what is going on.

Turning loose 50-60 K PSI in a little brass jug a couple of inches from my face and eyes is not something I take lightly.

The long and short of it, the statment that the statment "if the rifle fails the No-Guage it is still perfectly safe" gives me the creeps. It may be safe under some cirsumstances not in others. If may be unsafe under all circumstances. I sure as heck would not say that!

[Char-Gar]

Mooseman...Being an apprentice to a true old school gunsmith is the way to go in such things. When I was a kid my first and only interest was guns and I haunted the shop of our gunsmith, who was indeed old school.When I was 14 he handed me a broom and told me to make myself useful. I cleaned up the shop for months watching everything he did. Little by little he let me do things. They were very simple at first, but became more complex as the years went by. I did until I was 20 years old.

His powder equipment was a drill press, Logan lathe, bench grinder, buffing wheels and more handtools that a hardware store.

My work has taken me all over the country and world and I never was in any place long enough to set up a shop of my own. I tried to use local gunsmiths for the work I did, but found most of them worked with one eye on the clock and turned out work, that did not meet my standards.

Now that I am retired, I have a good shop with basic equipment. Standing in the water of calm reflection, I am glad I did not take up gunsmithing as a profession. Dealing with idiot customers would have the the blow that sunk my ship. I did see my mentor pick up a large wrench and chase a Border Patrolman out of his shop once.

I will not do work for others as I don't want to have to please them. I won't do work for friends, because I want them to remain friends.

[Mooseman]

Thank you Char-Gar and your explanation is pretty much spot on.
Nanuk...There is usually a bit of a difference in chambers and headspace of Military Rifles versus A production Sporter Firearm like a Winchester Model 70 , or Remington 700 etc.
The Military rifles will be Looser Chambered and More headspace from the get go because of Battlefield conditions and the chance of dirt getting into the action where the gun must continue to function under adverse condition. They arent designed to worry about brass recovery for reloading and crimped primers I was told was to keep them from backing out because of more headspace tolerance. Both rifle and Machine gun ammo was interchangeable that way too.
There are different gauges for military specs Vs, Sporter rifles because of this.
You take a Military rifle and start using max loads in it and eventually it will set or hammer the lugs and lug surfaces back to an unsafe condition faster than a sporter rifle will. This is also dependant upon other variables such as steel used and heat treating Hardness.
If a modern sporter rifle fails a No Go gauge , it may be usable , but it would be more prudent to have it worked on and tightened up for safety sake as well as being better for your brass.
Rich

[sbowers]

Well after reading this whole thread, and haveing been a Master Gumsmith for most of 40 years I most most emphatically agree with Moosemans answer to all guestions, and It is also my opinion that the use of tape of any kind to get any reading on head space or detecting the problem is not what any "GOOD" gunsmith would ever do and I personally know of none that will or have ever done it. Ther are proper tools for doing the job and to not use them is asking for any number of trajic results, and if you have been or are contemplating useing this method you will sooner or later have a very unfortunate outcome.
Steve

[plainsman456]

You can also cut some shims out of coke cans,just mike them and put them under the brass in the bolt.
You really need to shoot some factory ammo in this rifle first,to have a benchmark.
I would guess it just might be a bedding issue.

[Mooseman]

You can also cut some shims out of coke cans,just mike them and put them under the brass in the bolt.
You really need to shoot some factory ammo in this rifle first,to have a benchmark.
I would guess it just might be a bedding issue.

NO YOU CANNOT !!! Brass is NOT acceptable as a gauge as it is soft and NOT a Hardened steel gauge...and different brands of cases are different sizes.
Please...

[sbowers]

You can also cut some shims out of coke cans,just mike them and put them under the brass in the bolt.
You really need to shoot some factory ammo in this rifle first,to have a benchmark.
I would guess it just might be a bedding issue.

This the kind of misinformation that gets people into trouble. Please do not give inofrmation about things that you have not done or have not traning in as it can cause someone serious bodly injury.
Steve

[Jammer Six]

It's also a demonstration of the fact that if you ain't a gunsmith, you got no business taking other folks guns and working on them.

We have enough con men, thieves and rip-off artists without encouraging more.

[Char-Gar]

You can also cut some shims out of coke cans,just mike them and put them under the brass in the bolt.
You really need to shoot some factory ammo in this rifle first,to have a benchmark.
I would guess it just might be a bedding issue.

Ahhh..Jeeze! What's next, newsprint?

[plainsman456]

Gosh I guess all the times this has worked has been a fluke?
The correct way is to have all the gauges but when you do not have any it will work.
Some folks just have to be the perfect types on anything,there are ways of doing things when tools are not available.
I am not a thief nor con-artist.
So get a life.

[sparky45]

Gosh I guess all the times this has worked has been a fluke?
The correct way is to have all the gauges but when you do not have any it will work.
Some folks just have to be the perfect types on anything,there are ways of doing things when tools are not available.
I am not a thief nor con-artist.
So get a life.

+1 for Plainsman456. I suspect to be a "competent" gunsmith one must be a type A+ personality and totally Anal. Not saying that's necessarily bad, just a trait. The OP NEVER said he was going to FIX a headspace, just looked for a method to diagnosis a headspace problem. You Pro's seem to have your nose out of joint because the OP seemed(by your inference) unwilling to spend $25 for a diagnosis. Again, the OP wasn't looking to correct a headspace problem, just find a way to diagnosis a possible problem. :holysheep

[Char-Gar]

+1 for Plainsman456. I suspect to be a "competent" gunsmith one must be a type A+ personality and totally Anal. Not saying that's necessarily bad, just a trait. The OP NEVER said he was going to FIX a headspace, just looked for a method to diagnosis a headspace problem. You Pro's seem to have your nose out of joint because the OP seemed(by your inference) unwilling to spend $25 for a diagnosis. Again, the OP wasn't looking to correct a headspace problem, just find a way to diagnosis a possible problem. :holysheep

Sparky..Headspace guages do not correct a headspace problem, they diagnose a possible problem.

[littlejack]

Here I go again, trying to defend myself for something I haven't done.
I am glad to see that some of the members here understand my original post, and my intent.
I don't see where I am being encouraged to be a con man, thief, or rip-off artist, and I do
resent the fact that I would do such a thing.
I have been a member of high standing here on the CastBoolits since December of
2007. I have swapped or sold items multiple times here and have never been accused of
shafting anyone. (Deadbeat)
I have never seen a thread get this far out of control as this one has. There has been
insults, accusations, and down right disrespect for others on this thread, including myself.
It has been stated that I have thin skin, and should not let it get to, but the disrespect to
others and myself just keep on coming.
I tried to defend myself, and was told I was being uncivil. My post was removed.
There are some posters here that understand exactly what my purpose in asking the original
question was. For that I appreciate their intellegence, and understanding.
Apparently, no one is supposed to do ANY kind of work on ANY firearm unless that person is
full fledged, licensed gunsmith.
Jack

[sparky45]

Sparky..Headspace guages do not correct a headspace problem, they diagnose a possible problem.

That's exactly my point.

[littlejack]

There has been hundreds of new members post a question that would start like this:
And I quote. "This will probably be a dumb question" unquote.
Then USUALLY, the first reply will be, And I quote. "The only dumb question, is the one you
don't ask. unquote
If this is the type of response that members are going to get, criticsim and accusations, why
would a new or even seasoned member want to ask a question.
Do you critical people really believe that someone is going to ask for information, knowing
that they are going to be seen as an idiot for something they didn'y know.
We don't even know each other, so why do some members respond this way?
I received a lot of information on this thread. The way I received some of it was insulting.
If someone else was to NOT ask a question, because of the criticism he may get, it may cost
him his sight, hands, arm or death.
You may want to think about that. It's called bullying.
Jack

[458mag]

Uhm, actually, you took a rifle to work on when you're not a gunsmith.

What part of that are you now claiming not to have done?

What exactly was he working on?

[Pavogrande]

The common mans prayer " Lord save us from the professional"

[Mooseman]

Allright this is going nowhere fast.
I am really appalled at the latest comments by several of the posters on here.
Littlejack, At least 2 Professional Gunsmith's and some others have tried to steer you in the RIGHT direction. Your responses have left little to be desired even after being warned.
Do you do your own Dental work ?
Do you write your own Insurance policies ?
Do you Xray yourself or set your own broken Bones?
No...You leave it to a Trained Professional and you pay for services rendered.
Now you get defensive because it wasnt what YOU wanted to hear .

I wish I knew who the owner of the rifle was because I would let him read all that was posted here or I would Personally call him to warn him and give him sound advice as to HIS Rifle.Then he could make up his own Mind.

I am Locking this thread down now.

Rich