17hrm ricocheting of the coyote's head???

[ButterNutZ]

Yesterday evening when out looking for a coyote to shoot with my new (to me) cz452 in 17 hmr. It's 250 acres that my friend lets me hunt on and I also keep coyotes off for him. My spot sits up on a hill about 20 ft high, overlooking a field and some light brush. As soon as I got settled in, I see a good size dog about 120 yards away running in and out of the brush towards me. I get my rifle ready, put my crosshairs on his head and make a loud bark sound. He stops and looks right at me, I take a careful aim and pull the trigger, bam, he jerks his head of to the left, like someone just smacked him, arches his back a little and runs of. In my head i'm thinking WT?, head shot.... dog should drop where he stood, but no. Ok, I get out of the blind and go look for some blood. Spent and hour looking for any sing of him or his blood, nothing. Now the only thing left is ether I missed, which is most reasonable explanation, or bullet ricocheted of his head. The angle of impact probably was to shallow, maybe 30 degrees, I have made kills just like this one using my 223, and dogs just drop dead.
I had this rifle out twice at the range, sighted in at 100 yards, and was shooting clay pigeons out to 200 yards with boring consistency, so I though that it's ready for a first hunt.
Am I full of poop and need to stop kidding my self?

[stubshaft]

My best guess is that you hit it in the left ear. While not impossible for the boolit to ricochet, with the 17 it is highly unlikely.

[ridurall]

The last time my 10 year old son and I went out to bust a few prairie dogs he shot one at 150 yards and dropped it flat with our Ruger 77/17 HMR. I killed a bunch of coons with it and several cats in the barn with it. The big advantage is I've never had a problem with the boolit bouncing off their head or even going through their rib cage and poking a hole in my barn. From what I’ve seen with the construction of the 17 I don’t think that bouncing off the head of the coyote would be one of the problems associated with that cartridge. My biggest worry is it not being powerful enough to kill a coyote. I’ve not tried it on our problem feral dogs just feral cats on the farm. I’ve dispatched the problem dogs with a 22 magnum without any problems though.

[shotman]

the 17 is wrong thing to use It is about as worthless as them things on a male hog

[Quigley284]

I am a huge fan of both 17's. I have a ruger in 17hmr and 2 mach 2's. With small game, I don't think you will find a better combination. Its just not up to big dogs. I did poke one through the ribs, it didn't come out. That was one stinkin dog and it was all I had. Mike

[gandydancer]

the 17 is wrong thing to use It is about as worthless as them things on a male hog
you are so wrong.

[parrott1969]

Shotman is right. I remember when they first rolled them out. I think it was in American rifleman where I read on author's review. He talked about how he could easily kill rabbits and other small game in excess of 100 yards. Also wrote how he saw a coon at 60 ( I think) yards, drew bead on its head and bam. Said the coon was knocked down but immediately got up and started running. Said he had to shoot it several more times to put it down. He noted that the bullet failed to penetrate the animals skull. He had a similar experience with a fox. Save the 17 for tree rats and use your 223 for coyotes.

[plainsman456]

My brother in law shot 3 coyotes with one that the judge had him sight in.
@ were shot at 50 yards in the head and the other in the chest.
The 2 shook their head like it was afire and ran off,leaving some hair and skin behind.
The one shot in the chest hit the ground and went in the helicopter tail spin.He got up and walked to where it laid and it got up and ran off.
Later him and a friend were shooting some pigeons off of pump jacks and they didn't kill one,they just shook it off then flew away.
I have one of the short 17's and it works better on them birds.

[jh45gun]

I'll stick with my 22 mag I know it kills big for its size.

[tmax64]

The 17 will kill yotes just as dead as the 223 at the range you mentioned. My guess is you pierced his ear for him. If it had bounced off his noggin it would have at least stunned him and put him on the ground for a few seconds to a minute.

[M-Tecs]

The 17 HMR is excellent for small game out to 125 yards. I have shot hundreds of prairie dogs, dozens of pigeons and around fifty crows with it. If you do your part it will get the job done on small game. Of the yotes that I shot I have only used 17 grain bullets. I was not happy with the results so I no longer use the 17 HMR for them. Maybe the 20 grain would have worked better.

[ButterNutZ]

Shotman is right. I remember when they first rolled them out. I think it was in American rifleman where I read on author's review. He talked about how he could easily kill rabbits and other small game in excess of 100 yards. Also wrote how he saw a coon at 60 ( I think) yards, drew bead on its head and bam. Said the coon was knocked down but immediately got up and started running. Said he had to shoot it several more times to put it down. He noted that the bullet failed to penetrate the animals skull. He had a similar experience with a fox. Save the 17 for tree rats and use your 223 for coyotes.

That's what I was thinking, keep using my 223 on anything bigger then a tree rat.
Thanks for your help all, I'll have to do some testing on 17's penetration at 100 yards and see how it does. I just can't let this one go for some reason, maybe it's because that was the first coyote that I saw in a month and now I dont know who to blame. Sure it's easy to blame the cartridge, but I have to get in to it little bit deeper.
What you guys think would make a good skull substitute? Maybe some sdl 40 PVC pipe, or sdl 80? Give me some ideas and I'll try to make a review with some pictures and maybe a video.

[1Shirt]

I think that the 17HMR is a little lite for yotes unless maybe under 50 yds. It is a good p-dog gun out to 125-130 or so on a calm day. Probably good enough for chucks under 75 or so. There are always exceptions but the above would be what I think is reasonable.
1Shirt!

[fishnbob]

The bullets for a .17 are too explosive for penetration in a coyote skull. They will blow up before penetrating the skull. I reserve the .17 for blackbirds, crows etc and they blow up like a bomb inside even a small blackbird, brownheaded cow birds and the like. Great little gun, I love mine but not a good coyote or feral dog gun. It will kill cats but not quickly enough to be considered humane. JMHO! YMMV. That's why I bought the Savage 110 in a .204 Ruger. 32 grains @ 4000+ fps fills a big gap.

[Jeffrey]

"Use enough gun" I believe a wise man once said. Do not claim extensive killing experience, have learned lesson on the above. Will never be undergunned again.

[6.5 mike]

One of the reasons I keep a 22 hornet handy.

[Lee]

I ricocheted a .22LR off a groundhog at 100 yards 45+ years ago. Shot, heard the bullet whine, thought ***. Walked up to the hole. There sat the hog, creased in the forehead, foaming and spitting. Put him away. But at the right angle I expect ANYTHING will ricochet off a skull ..... Lee:smile:

[ButterNutZ]

Well got one this Saturday using same bullet Hornady 17gr and same rifle. I wasn't going shoot him because of what happened last weekend, but he came up to 60 yards and turned his head off to the left side, giving me an opportunity to place a bullet right behind his right ear. I figured what the heck, I went ahead and pulled the trigger, bam, down goes the dog. He jerked his back lags once and that was it. Looking over his head, I didn't see an exit wound, but there was a ton of blood coming out his both ears. If he didnt stop the way he did I would have let him go, just didnt want to injure the poor bastard.
Any who here is poor cellphone picture of him,

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s70/JeePing03/2-1.jpg

I skinned him and will make a buttwarmer for my deer stand seat.

[GT27]

Anything's possible!!IMHO!I'm 50 now and Ive seen a lot of weird in the field,woods,stream,range, as well as everyday in society...

[Blanket]

I think the 17 hmr to light for coyotes but if you would have hit him even a glancing hit the should have been some hair or blood from it

[MT Gianni]

Could have broken his jaw as well. I don't like head shots.

[jblee10]

How do you make a buttwormer out of a coyote?

[9.3X62AL]

How do you make a buttwormer out of a coyote?

This question I'll leave in place, thank you.

I'm too new to the 17 HMR to give advice about its capabilities. My initial thoughts when I first got it 1 year ago was that claims for 200 yard reach on ground squirrels and prarie dogs might be a little "expanded". I've hit GSs well past 125 yards, and jackrabbits to 150 yards using the 20 grain bullets--and these do well, DRT in all instances. So--my conclusions to date are that on the same size range of game for which the 22 LR is appropriate, the 17 HMR gives at least twice the humane harvesting distance of the 22 LR.

I'm not ready to call the 17 HMR a humane coyote caliber. Yet. At $.22 to $.28 per cartridge, there isn't much (if any) cost savings over the 223 Rem/5.56 x 45 for the handloader, either. My 223 or 243 cast boolit loads are ballistically similar or superior to the 17 HMR, and hit with A LOT MORE authority than the rimfire 17. These cost half to assemble what a 17 HMR cartridge costs to buy.

All that said, the 17 HMR obviously fills a niche for a lot of varmint hunters. Empties are all over the place where varmints get shot at. It IS a fun little cartridge, and I won't be selling off my CZ-455 that chambers it.

[Rangefinder]

Too explosive--too small--too light... Whatever. The last yote I took, I did it with a 17HMR using 17gr. Hornadays. Just like every other hunt, it's about shot placement. Mine was a 160-ish yards shot to the head. He turned to look back at me and the bullet impacted just below the eye and exited right behind the opposite ear. He wouldn't have dropped quicker if I'd dropped a piano on him. So yes--it can be done. Is it ideal? No. The 17HMR is very unforgiving. It's NOT good for body shots, it drifts drastically even with a mild breeze, it sheds velocity very fast and then noses off sharply so effective energy falls off rapidly after 200yds.

It is effective within limitations. Unless you are extremely picky with your shots, use something with a bit more "oomph".

[Radkins]

And it's a great way to get kids shooting. With the giant scopes we put on them the kids think they are shooting daddys hunting rifle. Plus popping the heads off doves at 150 yards is just good eats.

[schutzen]

My son and I have had much the same experience with the .17HMR. It is just too light for larger animals much beyond 75 yards. I shot a coyote broadside at 125 yards and he ran for the hills. My son was backing me with a .223 and dropped him at 200 yards. My bullet hit a rib and exploded as a surface wound. We like the .17HMR for smaller varmints, musk rats and snakes in particular, but we are back to the .22 mag and the .223 for coyotes and feral dogs.

[starmac]

I believe anything can happen when shooting coyotes. I shot one once at 80 yards or less with a 300 savage, it immediately did a back flip, and then kicked off into a fit of 6 or 8 wild flips. When it finally landed on all fours, it left out on a dead run. I have no idea where it was hit, but it had 3 or 4 inches of fresh snow, and I never found a drop of blood. It seems like some of these things have 9 lives, like a cat.

[crowbuster]

i am no expert but have shot hundreds of rounds through my marlin 917 at several different critters. Schutzen and I have the same findings on coyote, I just will not do that again. Blackbirds, chipmonks, g-hogs, starlings,crows etc. just know the limitations. its great for the small stuff and will vaporize a chipmonk hit long ways:bigsmyl2:

[ButterNutZ]

How do you make a buttwormer out of a coyote?

hehe should have been warmer.... English....hey I know how to spell boolits!

[ButterNutZ]

Too explosive--too small--too light... Whatever. The last yote I took, I did it with a 17HMR using 17gr. Hornadays. Just like every other hunt, it's about shot placement. Mine was a 160-ish yards shot to the head. He turned to look back at me and the bullet impacted just below the eye and exited right behind the opposite ear. He wouldn't have dropped quicker if I'd dropped a piano on him. So yes--it can be done. Is it ideal? No. The 17HMR is very unforgiving. It's NOT good for body shots, it drifts drastically even with a mild breeze, it sheds velocity very fast and then noses off sharply so effective energy falls off rapidly after 200yds.

It is effective within limitations. Unless you are extremely picky with your shots, use something with a bit more "oomph".

Dang the bullet didnt fragment inside his head? Were you aiming for his eye?

I got my self a truck gun last week that I will take with me every where now. It's a chicom m53, all beat to hell. Next time I'm out and about will see what lyman 314299 at 1800fps will do to a coyote. This way I have all my bases covered, 17hmr for squirrels, crows, chipmunks and mosin for coyotes.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

I KNOW the 17 HMR is too light for coyotes. It is possible to kill them, but just not the right cartridge. I wouldn't go any lighter than a .223.

[Rangefinder]

Dang the bullet didnt fragment inside his head? Were you aiming for his eye?

I was looking to center-punch him right between the eyes--in those cases, there is no exit, just mush in the cranial cavity. The bullet fragmented for sure, but all the tests I've run with 17HMR reveal approximately 3" of effective penetration, which is about the distance from eye socket to ear canal for the average coyote. Realistically, there probably wasn't much bullet exiting, just plenty of energy to create an exit gape in a thin portion of skull and cartilage behind the ear.

That being said, 17HMR "can" be effective is you have the patience and self-restraint, but is not usually the wise choice. .223 Rem would be a much better option with some 40gr. V-Max or a nice FN boolit.

[35remington]

Heck, guys. If you read the Rimfire Central forums instantly dead coyotes using body shots at 150 to 250 yards are routine.

When I pointed out the 17 has about 50 or 60 ft. lbs. of energy at 250 yards, or noticeably less than a .22 short, the guy who claimed "dozens and dozens" of long range kills on raccoon, coyote etc. at extended range with the .17 assured me that "50 ft. lbs. kills critters dead."

Other places, like here, are a lot more realistic about its capabilities.

[Rangefinder]

Awe heck, 35rem---I dropped an African Bull Elephant with one a couple weeks ago. We have a problem with them getting into the wife's flower beds, so my all-purpose kill anything smaller than a D9 Cat and just as heavy 17HMR takes care of business. Elephants and roses don't mix... :D

Wanna buy a bridge?

[Canuck Bob]

I wrestled hard with my choice for 17HRM or 22 Mag in a little truck gun. Final decision, 22 Hornet, reload cheap in a Handi and real good coyote medicine to 125 yards I figure.

If over the counter ammo was important I would have picked the 22 Mag.

[429421Cowboy]

I have witnessed one buck whitetail taken at just over 100 yards by a friend that was hurt too bad to support a larger rifle. One high lung shot and 35 yards later he was dead. I also have a friend who uses coyote carcasses in his biology classes so he hunts them with his .17 to do minimal damage to them, and has had good luck with it. I however do not care for light bullet at high velocity, when i could load cast for cheaper out of a .22 Hornet or jacketed for greater performance. My little brother shot the first coyote he had ever trapped with his little Savage .17 4 times in the head for zero penitration, sure did make him mad though! A shot to the back of the head finished it but anybody that traps knows how hard it is to get a 'yote to look away from you when he's in a trap. We have had excelent luck with standard vel .22 lr's between the eyes to kill them with zero fur damage and had high hopes for the .17, but i can say i probably wouldn't own one, my little brother wants to trade his off on a .22-250 now.

[starmac]

Any of you ever looked at the coyote gods website. It is a whole different animal, nut those guys swear by the 17 rem, and roll their own.

[MT Gianni]

25 gr bullet starting out @ over 4000 fps is a very different animal than the 17 hmr, a similarcomparison would be the 35 Whelen & the 38 S&W with both shooting 200 gr bullets.

[David LaPell]

I have never shot a coyote with a .17 HMR, but I know of a couple of guys that did, and here in the east we get some bigger dogs, up to 50 pounds and more (last big one I shot was that size) and there are some guys who were complaining of the dogs running off. I think the issue was with those early hollowpoints that were just not getting through the skull for some headshots. I think that now the newer bullets are out the performance might be different. I however was not a fan of the .17 (I had one and it was too much for small game and not enough for the bigger stuff) so I went out and got a .22 Hornet which to me is the least I would really want to try on a big eastern coyote.

[mdi]

I can imagine a 17 gr hollow point blowing up, but what about 20 gr. FMJ?

[AZ-JIM]

Well got one this Saturday using same bullet Hornady 17gr and same rifle. I wasn't going shoot him because of what happened last weekend, but he came up to 60 yards and turned his head off to the left side, giving me an opportunity to place a bullet right behind his right ear. I figured what the heck, I went ahead and pulled the trigger, bam, down goes the dog. He jerked his back lags once and that was it. Looking over his head, I didn't see an exit wound, but there was a ton of blood coming out his both ears. If he didnt stop the way he did I would have let him go, just didnt want to injure the poor bastard.
Any who here is poor cellphone picture of him,

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s70/JeePing03/2-1.jpg

I skinned him and will make a buttwarmer for my deer stand seating.


I can imagine a 17 gr hollow point blowing up, but what about 20 gr. FMJ?

This has come up a few times on a local hunting forum and it is pretty much the concensus of ; the. 17 isnt quite up to the task and I tend to agree...use enough gun. Besides a shot behind the ear is different than a straight on head shot.

Check the local regs, fmj's arent legal for hunting in az so be aware.


az-jim

[Four Fingers of Death]

"I skinned him and will make a buttwarmer for my deer stand seat."

What an ignominous end, even for a Coyote! lol

[shotstring]

Shotman is right. I remember when they first rolled them out. I think it was in American rifleman where I read on author's review. He talked about how he could easily kill rabbits and other small game in excess of 100 yards. Also wrote how he saw a coon at 60 ( I think) yards, drew bead on its head and bam. Said the coon was knocked down but immediately got up and started running. Said he had to shoot it several more times to put it down. He noted that the bullet failed to penetrate the animals skull. He had a similar experience with a fox. Save the 17 for tree rats and use your 223 for coyotes.

How do these stories get started anyway? Sure, the 17 HMR won't penetrate the thin skull material of a coyote or coon - but will somehow crater and tear up metal backstops at indoor shooting ranges forcing them to be banned there. Look at all the penetration tests listed on this stuff and then tell me with a straight face that the skull of a small animal stops this bullet cold in its tracks.

If a 17HMR failed to penetrate the animals skull, it is because they missed hitting it squarely. You can graze almost any skull with almost any bullet and a deflection will result. But not with a good hit.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Thats why the front of tanks are sharply angled, to deflect incoming fire. Fox probably hunkered down or moved his head the right/wrong way a fraction before it hit.

Any direct hit will see full penetration and the fox/coyote/whatever's head will feel like a bladder from a cask of wine or a plastic bag full of jelly.

My Dad's infantry company during WW2 had a jap wait until GOD, the company commander (his name was Gerald O'Day and he was the boss, so naturally the troops called him God) was a few feet in front of his cammed up foxhole and he jumped up and fired. The 7.7 bullet grazed God's forehead, richoceted inside his helmet at the front then at the back before plowing into the flesh on his back. This was early in their 3 yr New Guinea tour and God had a pretty fleshy body. Big hills, dysentary, malaria, humidity, short rations and the rigours of years of jungle fighting soon got rid of that for them all.

[**oneshot**]

Watched my buddy shoot a coyote with his 17hmr. I watched through my binoculars when he shot. Dog was facing us, at the shot there was a big puff from the head and the dog dropped. As we were walking the 100yds the dog got up and ran off like we just jumped a rabbit. We arrived at the spot where he was and all that we found was some hair.
After shooting one other coyote that ran off with what looked like a good hit, my friend sold his 17 and picked up a 223.