Failure to Feed...Still need help

[Tango2020]

Going on 5 months now and thousands of test rounds. I'm VERY aggravated.

I don't post much but been reading lots and have tried many different things to no avail. Stay with me and I will try and give you all info/

My problem: after 15 or so rounds the slide will not go completely closed. I can bump it with my palm to make it go into battery. The PPQ is worse but the XDM has the same issue. At seating depth of 1.100 with the PPQ the next to the last round will some times have a 3 point jam with the nose of the round stopping against the hood of the barrel (occasionally).
Lube will be around the case mouth of the boolits that fail to go into battery. ( I do clean all boolits well after loading so it is from firing the previous round and not from loading.

Leading I can control but the stoppages I can't get a handle on.

*Guns - XDM .40 and new walther PPQ .40 = PPQ gives more trouble than the XDM

* Bullet- Lee 401-175-TC

* Lube - 45/45/10 and Felix
45/45/10= leading so I gave up on that
Felix - Tried many variations adding Carnauba to make it stiffer and Vasoline to try softer. I am lubing with a Lyman 4500 and have ran the consistency from having to use a heater to flowing without one.

*Powder - Unique ranging from 5.1 to 6.0 gr

*Seating - From 1.09 to 1.25 with no crimp. I just take the bell back out of the mouth and use the barrel as a go no go and all rounds drop easily.

*XDM - Slugs at .4000

*PPQ- slugs out at .4010

*Sizing dies for the 4500. - I use one at original size for the XDM (.401) and I have lapped out a second at(.402 for the PPQ)

* Dies - Lee but using the Lyman M die.

Any Ideas?

[edler7]

All the brass the same maker ? If so, have you tried another brand ? Any difference with new and used brass ?

The lube around the mouth makes me think you don't have sufficient neck tension and different brass may help.

[Tango2020]

I'm using mixed brass. I'm using the Lyman M die which should actually reduce neck tension which is what I thought was needed for the .40 to prevent swagging of the bullet during seating.

[geargnasher]

Sometimes it does that. You're doing everything else right. I believe what is happening is the pressure is blowing lube out of the groove just as it begins to move, filling the space between case mouth and the end of the chamber. Some lube might be "dragged" backwards as the case extracts, which is scraped forward again by the next cartridge over and over until it packs in there enough to prevent the cartridge from going fully into battery. Powder residue and lead shavings from non-existent throats don't help matters much, and make the lube accumulation a real mess.

I had one gun that was really stubborn about this, and the fix was to add more fuel. My idea was that the .45 ACP is essentially the same cartridge type, and most .45 automatics have the lack of throat that most .40 caliber autos do, I was loading to similar pressures with 231, Titegroup, Universal, and Blue Dot as I do in .45 ACP in this instance, so the only thing I could figure is the hard, thick, tough .40 brass wasn't getting enough pressure from the loads I was using to obturate the chamber. I switched to Longshot first and worked up the charge, at a certain point the gunk stopped. I think it was a combination of sealing the chamber and loading hot enough to blast it out of there each shot. I know you've done lots of testing, but I think it might be time for a powder change, and maybe fool with a taper crimp some to improve reliability.

Gear

[williamwaco]

I suspect crud. What does the inside of the chamber look like after 15 rounds or so.

I predict that a quick brushing with a brusn large enough to clean the chamber will fix it.

If this works, You need to look at your powder and lube. If you get more carbon, you are probably not getting good ignition. Try a slight crimp. I crimp mine 0.001 inch. I determine this by measuring the mouth of the loded case and the same diameter 1/8 behind the mouth. The diameter of the mouth should be 0.002 less than the diameter of the case 1/8th inch back from the mouth. This amount of crimp is not visible without a glass and will not interfere with headspacing.

Note: I am not saying this is the "Correct" way to crimp anything. I am just saying it works for me.

If you have more lube than carbon, I would recommend you try tumbling them in Lee Liquid Alox.


See this link for more ideas on loading for the n.40.


http://www.reloadingtips.com/pages/loading-40-sw.htm






.

[MtGun44]

Are you taper crimping as a separate operation or not at all? Semiauto ammo must be
taper crimped, and should be as a separate operation.

In the .45 ACP (never loaded for .40 but LOTS of .45 and 9mm) failure to or inadequate
TC was the NUMBER ONE problem with failures to feed. Not done as a sep operation will
often leave a ring of loosely held lead that can foul the chamber.

Bill

[Mk42gunner]

I haven't loaded the .40 S&W for close to twenty years, so take this for what it is worth. When I was loading for it, we ran the loads through several CZ clones, Glocks and at least one S&W.

The .40 is a relatively high pressure pistol round, it is more like loading for the 9mm than the .45 ACP.

I would suggest working with one gun, getting it going right and then work on the other; unless you can keep really good notes and the loads separated.

A good tight taper crimp may be all that you need, I don't know for sure, I don't remember using Unique. I would steal a trick from loading a .45, set your crimp by screwing the die down on a factory load, this should get you pretty close to where it needs to be.

I would try a different powder, we had pretty good luck with Green Dot I know, and I think 231.

Good Luck,

Robert

[Tango2020]

Wow....There seems to be a consensus that a taper crimp may be warranted. I'm going to try that tomorrow and the try bumping up the juice a little on some test after.


If I can't get the Unique to work I'll change powder.

To Gear, William and Mtgun44, you guys are great. Thanks

[Springfield]

If that doesn't work make sure the rear of the case isn't a tad too large in diameter due to bulging. Many 40's are famous for this, and it can be difficult to resize those cases properly. Maybe some are just big enough to not want to go in without some assistance.

[geargnasher]

To clarify, I wasn't very specific that principle of gun operation, case shape, and short throats are about the only similarity between .45 ACP and .40S&W. The .40 uses brass designed to operate at three times the pressure, HUGE difference and that causes all the problems with loading and shooting cast boolits.

Gear

[bowenrd]

My 10MM did not like 175 TC because of feeding problems. I sold that mould and got a 180 FP and have never looked back.

Try a different profile.

[plainsman456]

I quit using unique and went to Bullseye.To date I have had no problems like this anymore.

[fredj338]

It could just be your guin doesn't like that round but small things matter. When you say "no crimp", you may not be getting enough of the case mouth flare removed. So a very slight taper crimp will guarantee at least that works. The fact they fit the bbl when gaging though tells me you are crimping enough. Mixed brass though can vary that.

[Tango2020]

I just loaded 50 rounds with 5.6 gr Unique @ 1.100 and put a taper crimp on them. I'm working mainly with the PPQ because it seems to be more hard headed than the XDM. I'll report back the results tomorrow. Thanks for all the help guys.

[runfiverun]

i just went and looked at that mold.
seeing as you are having trouble in both guns, and one lube didn't do it but the other one does i'd call out the lube.
the hotter load may clean things out by not letting it blow out in the chamber,
build up and causing stoppages
i have had soft lubes do this before and completely cover my revolver and hands.
the only benefit i found from this was i didn't have to lube the cases to resize them.
i'd give things one more shot and then try a different lube.
[bumping up the load was my initial reaction]
i have three different star sizers and they all have different lubes in them for a reason.
i also use my version of recluses 45/45/10 lube [3 parts to one part beeswax] for a couple of applications.
you can reverse this 1-3 for lubesizers too.

[MtGun44]

If you have range brass or bought once fired brass, it may well be that it was first first firing was
in a Glock, and apparently many (ALL?) have hugely oversized chambers to the point that
the brass must be pushed all the way through a special resizing die to resize the swollen
base enough to work in more normal SAAMI spec chambers.

Try using the dismounted barrel as a gage. The loaded round should drop in all the way
or take no more than 1 pound fingertip pressure to seat fully. If this isn't happening, figure
out what is binding - could be boolit in the throat hitting the rifling - if so seat deeper. Could
be inadequate TC, if so TC more. In most semiautos, this is the end. With the .40 and
the possibility of the brass having been "Glocked", you need to do some diameter
measurement at the rear of the case, just barely ahead of the extractor groove. If this is
the issue look into one of the special "deGlocking" dies.

Bill

[Harter66]

I had lube issues w/my 9mm using LLA ,I ran the loads up down,tweeked depth,crimp really most of what you've done. I changed to a Darr based lube(wax,vasoline,stp mine is heavy on wax and stp),and problem solved. I was and am shooting Reddot and Unique.

[Larry Gibson]

I quit using unique and went to Bullseye.To date I have had no problems like this anymore.

+1 and also +1 on tumble lubing in LLA or using a good commercial lube such as BAC or Javelina.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

Larry, you got LLA and Javelina to work with Unique in .40 S&W? Would you mind ellaborating on how?

Gear

[ku4hx]

I have no problems with that same Lee 175 TC boolit in my Smith 411 and 1006 nor in my G27, G22 or G23. Function is 100% if I do my part.

However, in my G30 I had many failures to feed properly (Lee 230 TC boolit) which I solved by wiping the LLA off the entire exposed boolit surface. Those same rounds with lube on the boolit nose work perfectly well in my Ruger KP-90 and my 1911. I thought this odd but switching back and forth from lube-on-boolit-nose to no-lube-on-boolit-nose got the same results every time in my G30: rounds with LLA on the boolit failed to feed regularly ... no lube and all rounds chambered and fired as expected. ~200 perfect chamberings with no lube on the boolit through six different magazines.

For my G30 TC boolit rounds I now use my Lyman 450 to apply lube. Slower than Lee's system but it works for me.

[garym1a2]

I get very good results with the Lee 401-175-TC in my Glock 22 with a Storm Lake barrel. BUT, their are some extra steps I take with this caliber.
1. Tumble clean all brass very well.
2. Run all brass thru the Lee buldge buster.
3. Run the boolit thru the RCBS LAM with a good lube.
4. I use seat and crimp steps seperate.
5. Don't used fatory crimp die, only a simple crimp die.
6. Clean extra lube from case and boolit afterwards.
7. 100% fit check round to case both forward and backward, being a straight case the backwards should still fit the chamber.
8. rounds that don't pass #7 do not make it to a match, they go back thru the seating and crimp stage of the press and if still big thru the budge buster. If still big they are pulled.

[captain-03]

Try using the dismounted barrel as a gage. The loaded round should drop in all the way or take no more than 1 pound fingertip pressure to seat fully. If this isn't happening, figure out what is binding - could be boolit in the throat hitting the rifling - if so seat deeper. Could be inadequate TC, if so TC more. In most semiautos, this is the end. With the .40 and the possibility of the brass having been "Glocked", you need to do some diameter measurement at the rear of the case, just barely ahead of the extractor groove. If this is the issue look into one of the special "deGlocking" dies.

Bill

This was my first thought since you are talking about a 40S&W --

+1 -- by using your barrel as a gage, you should be able to determine if you have Glocked brass or if you have enough taper crimp on the round ....

[C.F.Plinker]

This was my first thought since you are talking about a 40S&W --

+1 -- by using your barrel as a gage, you should be able to determine if you have Glocked brass or if you have enough taper crimp on the round ....

Do the plunk test then rotate the cartridge 90* and do it again. I had a problem with occasional failures to chamber on a 45ACP revolver even though I had gaged the cartridges. After a long troubleshooting session at the range, I found that if I rotated the cartridges that were not chambering within the moon clip, they would then chamber. I was crimping to .470 which was enough for my bottom feeders and which took the bell out of the case but the revolver didn't always like it. I increased the crimp to .468 at the case mouth and the problem ceased to exist.

[popper]

The lube! I have the same bullet for XD, use unique, no problems. 6 grn was a little hot in mine, the unique and lube seem to leave more residue in the bbl(MBC #5, their lube - and they use a lot, which smokes a lot). Make sure the Recluse is really dry before loading. If it scrapes off the CB it will stick to the mouth of the case where wiping won't remove it. Did you TL the Recluse lube ? It doesn't take much. The JPW actually has carnuba and micro-crystalline wax in it.

[Bwana]

If you have range brass or bought once fired brass, it may well be that it was first first firing was
in a Glock, and apparently many (ALL?) have hugely oversized chambers to the point that
the brass must be pushed all the way through a special resizing die to resize the swollen
base enough to work in more normal SAAMI spec chambers.
Bill

Another one of the "Glock myths". I size my 40S&W brass, fired from all sorts of guns (range brass), in my Lee carbide die. Never have any problem chambering resulting rounds in any of my 40S&W bbls. They are the factory G23 bbl, Lone Wolf aftermarket G23 bbl, and my LW 40S&W G20 bbl. I taper crimp my Lee 180 TC boolited rounds to .419".
I suggest that your failure to feed may be as a result of a weak mag spring, dirty mag body, or combo of both, and or one of those in addition to ammo factors. My load, by the way is 3.5gr TG with a WSPM primer.

[Tango2020]

Ok..... That 50 rounds fired great ( accept for 1 other stoppage, explain later) so I think the lack of crimp was the issue. The reason I never crimped was I thought it was a no-no for cast. They all dropped in the barrel before shooting. Also I used a Lee factory crimp die, Which I thought was a no-no. How do I crimp in a separate step without the LFCD?

As for the one stoppage it was what I'm calling a 3 point jam where the round wedges against the top/hood and the round below it is pointing upward also. This only happens when there are 2 rounds left in the Mag. Bad Spring maybe but it's brand new.

Again, Thanks and I should have asked sooner..... would have saved me a lot of headaches.

[garym1a2]

Lee has a plan old taper crimp die for about $10 or you could buy and extra seating die and remove the seating part.

[geargnasher]

Tango2020, I'd use the plain taper-crimp die, although the FCD can be used if you put the crimp sleeve in your PTE die instead of the expander spud. The crimp lip in the Lee seater die is not very good, not really designed for a good taper crimp.

Don't learn the wrong lesson here about crimping, all this shows is that THESE guns need a crimp, maybe even enough to swage the case mouth into the boolit a little bit. That's what I do with the .40 as well, works fine for me, but I get better results out of the .45 ACP by just straightening the bellmouth. The point is not to establish "rules" that will make you shortsighted next project, keep an open mind about what you're doing and apply a variety of techniques as necessary to solve problems.

Gear

[Tango2020]

Thank's for the advice and I'm going to order a taper crimp die tonight.

I understand what you are saying Gear. I guess every gun has it's own unique personality which makes it a challenge but if it were easy every body would be doing it.

[MtGun44]

Bwana,

YOUR gun may not have a problem, but rest assured that many folks have had Glock .40s with
chambers WAY oversized. I suspect this has to do with the not so well known tendency for
.40 Glocks to go 'BOOM', even with factory ammo. Don't tell me that is a myth, I have seen
the official letter from a major Fed police agency to Glock asking why they were getting so
many blowups with new guns and factory ammo in training. Not a Glock expert, but I
do know a few things about them.

Tango - "Every gun is a thing unto itself" - Remember it! ;-)

Bill

[garym1a2]

40s$w was a pain to load with a glock barrel, leading, buldge cases. Changed to a storm lake barrel and all those problems go away. After a couple thousand 40s loaded you can spot the guppy brass. Sme times they are so bad I cannot get them thru the budgle buster die on the lee classic cast press and have to know them out backwards. Major loads with a heavy boolit and fast powders are scary in the 40. But shooting production and minor with a 40 you can load a lee 175TC with a 3.7gr charge of WST and have a gun with better recoil than the 9mms and high accuracy. I am also trying light charges of bullseye.


Bwana,

YOUR gun may not have a problem, but rest assured that many folks have had Glock .40s with
chambers WAY oversized. I suspect this has to do with the not so well known tendency for
.40 Glocks to go 'BOOM', even with factory ammo. Don't tell me that is a myth, I have seen
the official letter from a major Fed police agency to Glock asking why they were getting so
many blowups with new guns and factory ammo in training. Not a Glock expert, but I
do know a few things about them.

Tango - "Every gun is a thing unto itself" - Remember it! ;-)

Bill

[ku4hx]

Another one of the "Glock myths".

+1 I own eight Glocks (17,19,20,22,23,26,27,30) with purchase dates from 1993 to 2011. My brass has never been "Glocked" and in tens of thousands of rounds my carbide sizer dies have never had to remove a "Glock bulge". The sole problem I did have with bulges came with moderate loads in my Smith 1006 using new, unfired, Winchester cases. That was in 1989.

All my Glocks are a joy to load for. Assuming I use appropriate boolits and do my part getting critical cartridge dimensions correct they're a joy to shoot too. Maybe I'm just lucky.

[popper]

My 175 T/C drops at 180 and has a large meplat, requiring a shorter OAL (1.1") to avoid nose and feed ramp bumps. My M die miks at .397 but pulled CB sized .401 are still .401. Taper crimp has always worked for me, just enough to see the 'ring' around the case mouth. The PPQ mag problem could be the lips or the follower tilting wrong. Both mags the same (assume you get 2)?

[Bwana]

Hey Bill,
Why don't you address what I quoted that you wrote and to which I referred as a myth. It had nothing to do with Glock 40s going "kaboom". That was a red herring, a poor one at that. If you wish to discuss the reasons behind cartridge cases blowing out in glock 40s I am more than ready to give my opinions on the subject. Until then, stay on topic.

[Tango2020]

Popper - I did get 2 mags but honestly I haven't been using but one. I'm seating at 1.1 which is what the Lyman manual calls for. If the follower is tilting at too great of an angle upward would it be advised to bend the spring a little to tilt it downward?

[colt 357]

I shoot the Lee 401-175-TC in my Taurus 24/7 Pro with no problems at all. Ran about 3,000 rounds trough it this summer and no failure to feed at all. I seat to a OAL of 1.125 to 1.135 and a slight tamper crimp of .421. I seat and crimp in two steps. I load the rounds with 4.5 grains of Unique. I also sized my boolits to .401.
You said that you are seating to 1.09 to 1.25 did you try seat the boolit to your overall max so the bullet just about engauges the riflings. maybe your boolit is seated to short and when fired it shaves some lead off at the front of the chamber causing a build up not letting the case to seat in the chamber. Just a thought hope this may help.