A joke running around--

[44man]

all shooting sites that you can shoot heavy boolits slow with accuracy. So I am starting testing and will expand to other powders and boolit weights starting with the .44. Then on to the .475 and .500 JRH as I find what others are shooting. I don't want to guess at loads because there are no light loads safely listed. I will not post any loads, just velocities.
I started with my super accurate 330 gr WLNGC by taking it to 1000 fps and shooting 50 yards from the bench. This is the boolit that shot 1-5/16" at 200 yards.
I was more then surprised when I heard my 100 yard gong ring with one shot.
Yes, there is a 20" pattern there.

[44man]

Anyone can join in, test, show groups and the boolit.

[subsonic]

What load (powder/charge) is that?

[44man]

What load (powder/charge) is that?
I won't say yet because I want to go to other powders first. I am going to try and stay at 1000 fps and see if powder change does anything.
I should have done all the shooting first and made a chart but this was too horrible to let go by.
I am going to the Lee 310 and need to see if I have any 320 left and will not go lighter.
It is going to involve a little casting, I am out of most boolits.
I don't know if I should even bother going near 800 fps.

[stubshaft]

I have about 4 jugs of TB because a friend of mine swore that they would give me phenomenal accuracy in my 500S&W for plinking. I tried it and the patterns were horrible, POI shifted 8" @ 25 yds from my normal loads and there was no semblance of accuracy. I gave some to a friend of mine who is recoil shy to try out in his FA .50 Wyoming Express and 6 shots could not all print on an 8 1/2 X 11 piece of paper at 25yds.

I'm sure that with diligent effort I can probably find a low speed accurate combo, but I am not recoil shy and love to shoot big bores in the manner that they were designed.

[Whitworth]

Better break out the chronograph if you want to be legit about the velocities......

[44man]

Better break out the chronograph if you want to be legit about the velocities......
I will but it is of small matter. I went by Hodgdon info adjusted for barrel length. a few hundred fps is nothing. All are too far below stability.
It is like the silly 405 gr .44 boolit that could not be shot fast enough and was turning sideways at 50.
Then the 700 gr in the .500 S&W. Loopy- loop!
Some should just have smooth bore revolvers! :wink:

[Beerd]

Better break out the chronograph if you want to be legit about the velocities......

with accuracy like that, can he use your chrony? :kidding:
..

[Whitworth]

with accuracy like that, can he use your chrony? :kidding:
..

His chronograph has no screens, so there is no danger of killing them with bad accuracy!:mrgreen:

[44man]

with accuracy like that, can he use your chrony? :kidding:
..
Best idea yet. Since twist and velocity means nothing, I don't think I want to ruin mine.

[subsonic]

I think that this thread could generate some interesting data.

I also think that the parameters need to be more clearly defined. Maybe boolit length, like 1.25" calibers length, 2 calibers length, etc needs to be the parameter and actual velocity should definitely be recorded.

Then we need to define accuracy. How bout round holes making 5 shot groups less than 2" @ 50yds?

[98Redline]

This will be basically an argumentive thread with alot of ill will, ire, insinuations and a host of other things that will cause posters to get cockeyed on and never solve anything in general.

Maybe we could just merge it with one of the best caliber for bear defense threads :popcorn:

On the flip side I do think that it would be interesting to see the change in group size with change in velocity for particular boolits. It would also be interesting to see how different powders stack up.

[Blammer]

may give a good idea for what boolit to use in a subsonic 44mag rifle and keep accuracy.

[44man]

Read my post. HEAVY boolits shot slow. You are welcome to show what a 320 to 350 gr .44 will do at 800 to 1000 fps.
I do see an absurdity if you do not show your groups.
Why are you turning this into a fight when some want to see real results other then keyboard stamping? If you have information that disputes, show it, it is what I am looking for. I am trying to see if a powder change only will improve groups at the low end at the same velocity range.
I did ask for help since I don't have all components.
If you are shooting 1" at 50 yards with a 320 gr .44 boolit at 800 to 1000 fps, tell us what and how.
Do you have a camera?

[44MAG#1]

The challenge has been made.

[waksupi]

I have cleaned up this thread. 44man started this thread to encourage people in experimenting, to find what does and does not work. That is what we do here. If you are just here to stir the pot, stay off of the thread.

[cottonstalk]

Good luck in your experiment, I just think there are to many variables that even 5 people after one objective will be unable to come to a reasonable conclusion. There are too many powder/primer/boolit possibilities to get an accurate account of, as well as differences in handguns, because no two are the same. I have two 45colt Rugers, and each is a different animal unto itself. One really likes jacketed, the other not so much. One likes the 1200+fps window the other not so much. I may be wrong but I'd be willing to bet my most accurate loads wouldn't be in yours or vice versa. I know every accurate load I have tried that was recommended has needed some tweaking up or down a few grains. I hope you figure out what you are trying to, but I am afraid in the end you'll just know what your gun likes and dislikes.

[44man]

I have cleaned up this thread. 44man started this thread to encourage people in experimenting, to find what does and does not work. That is what we do here. If you are just here to stir the pot, stay off of the thread.
Thank you. It was not to start trouble, it was to learn and see.
I really did not expect such drastic changes with my boolit. My mouth fell open when I seen the target.

[44man]

Good luck in your experiment, I just think there are to many variables that even 5 people after one objective will be unable to come to a reasonable conclusion. There are too many powder/primer/boolit possibilities to get an accurate account of, as well as differences in handguns, because no two are the same. I have two 45colt Rugers, and each is a different animal unto itself. One really likes jacketed, the other not so much. One likes the 1200+fps window the other not so much. I may be wrong but I'd be willing to bet my most accurate loads wouldn't be in yours or vice versa. I know every accurate load I have tried that was recommended has needed some tweaking up or down a few grains. I hope you figure out what you are trying to, but I am afraid in the end you'll just know what your gun likes and dislikes.
Some truth my friend but you know me. But this is a simple trial only about downloads with heavy boolits, not so much accuracy with different guns.
If you are shooting a heavy boolit with accuracy, and I know you are, change the load to light and post results.

[jwp475]

Good luck in your experiment, I just think there are to many variables that even 5 people after one objective will be unable to come to a reasonable conclusion. There are too many powder/primer/boolit possibilities to get an accurate account of, as well as differences in handguns, because no two are the same. I have two 45colt Rugers, and each is a different animal unto itself. One really likes jacketed, the other not so much. One likes the 1200+fps window the other not so much. I may be wrong but I'd be willing to bet my most accurate loads wouldn't be in yours or vice versa. I know every accurate load I have tried that was recommended has needed some tweaking up or down a few grains. I hope you figure out what you are trying to, but I am afraid in the end you'll just know what your gun likes and dislikes.



Some truth my friend but you know me. But this is a simple trial only about downloads with heavy boolits, not so much accuracy with different guns.
If you are shooting a heavy boolit with accuracy, and I know you are, change the load to light and post results.



A down load with heavy bullets or a down load with just your heavy bullet? As Cottonstalk posted above too many variables to base conclusions on using just 1 bullet and 1 brand of powders and only 1 type/brand of primer.

I have shot many of the Buffalo Bore 500 JRH loads that are claimed to be loaded to 950 FPS ( I have not chrono'ed them in my revolvers) with a 440 grain flat point hard cast and they are as accurate as the 425's loaded to 1380 FPS in my revolver.

To make a blanket statement that heavy bullets loaded to 800 to 1000 FPS aren't accurate covers a lot of territory IMHO

[bearcove]

The only good heavy boolit (310gr 44,340gr 45) loads I've found where near max 296/110 loads for 44m and 454c.

Light loads, light boolits.

And I'm a dedicated non-conformist, anti-social bush rat.

As a PS I don't experiment too much. If I find a good thing I just use it. The only heavy bullet loads I use are for big hairy 4 legged things.

If I go deer hunting or plinking a "normal weight" FP at 1200-1350 fps is fine.

[TXGunNut]

I'm not doing 44's right now but if you'll define heavy and slow (without posting my mugshot :wink:) I'll consider playing. If you'll consider 45 Colt with BP or equivalent loads I'll definitely give it a go. I consider the 44 Mag one of those cartridges that truly loves to go fast and often performs best @ max loads. OTOH the 44 Spl is a grand old cartridge that is accurate, hits hard and is pleasant to shoot.
Game on! I'm a big fan of big, slow chunks of lead. I'm also a fan of pistol cartridges that perform like rifle cartridges.

[white eagle]

no time to test any more

[44man]

I'm not doing 44's right now but if you'll define heavy and slow (without posting my mugshot :wink:) I'll consider playing. If you'll consider 45 Colt with BP or equivalent loads I'll definitely give it a go. I consider the 44 Mag one of those cartridges that truly loves to go fast and often performs best @ max loads. OTOH the 44 Spl is a grand old cartridge that is accurate, hits hard and is pleasant to shot.
Game on! I'm a big fan of big, slow chunks of lead. I'm also a fan of pistol cartridges that perform like rifle cartridges.
I have started with the .44 mag because the Ruger .45 has a much faster twist at 1 in 16" and shoots heavy boolits better at a lower velocity. Around 1100-1200 fps is grand in the .45 with 335 gr and up.
You will find the .45 Ruger more forgiving as you reduce loads. I bet it shines with BP!
Now some .45 Colts have a 1 in 24" twist so those would be a good test bed. I don't have one though and is why I left the .45 out.
I am only trying to see what the twist/velocity match is doing.
A .454 would also be a good test with heavy boolits slowed way down.

[cbrick]

I would love to get in on this but it's not in the cards right now. I'm packing & getting ready to move to Arkansas . . . Yep, Rick is moving back to America.

For the 454 many years ago when I was using the 454 in Silhouette I did successfully down load it to a much more sedate 44 Mag level. It was very accurate and I shot quite a few 40X40's with it. It used IMR 4198 and to get enough in the case it had to be trickled in with a drop tube, a real PITA but it sure did work well. Before that I used ReLoader 7. My loading notebooks are packed and I don't want to list a load (charge weight) from that long ago from memory.

Rick

[44man]

Rick, what slow powder would you recommend for the .44?

[cbrick]

Not sure, that's part of the reason I would like to get in on this experimenting. In the 357 FA I experimented with 1680 and the RCBS 180 (@ 188 Gr) silhouette bullet. It actually worked fairly well but I ran up against case capacity while trying to reach a pre-determined velocity range. It came up just short and what I would need is a re-designed RCBS 180 with the crimp groove a bit closer to the lube groove, or a bit less bullet inside the case. The crimp groove and a good crimp is mandatory to get the slow powder burning well before the bullet starts to move. That's doable in the FA because of the length of the cylinder, not a chance in something like a Colt revolver. I may still do that, maybe get a mold made by Tom at Accurate just to try it & see.

I have had good luck in many cartridges using the slowest powder that will get me to the desired velocity which is what I was attempting with the 357 experiments. The test you are suggesting is different in that your looking for reduced velocity heavy weight accuracy but the slower powder route seems like it would be the way to start experimenting.

Rick

[subsonic]

What about using trailboss....... as a filler? Duplex loading.

[44man]

Rick, you know I firmly believe in a slow start and it looks like you have done good work along those lines.
My problem right now is finding loads for the heavy boolits for reduced velocity. Unique, etc, for 310 to 330 gr .44 boolits.
There is just nothing listed.
I have no idea where to start with the .475 and .500 JRH but 10 gr of 231 has been suggested for the .500 with a 440 gr boolit.
I want to keep velocity in the 1000 fps range just to see what twist rates do.
I do not want a fast powder to equal high velocity. I want slower loads. That is presenting a problem.
I am afraid to go willy-nilly into this.

[subsonic]

Sr4759?

[Alan]

Use trail boss. Fill the case to the base of the bullet, then 70% of that is your starting load. That should work with any cast boolit. Shoots great in the GB .500's with Miha's 440 gr Keith. I don't have a chrony, but based on other loading data in Lyman's book and John's site, it should be 800-900 fps.

[44man]

I have to find some TB but it is an 80 mile round trip to the store.
Even finding a 4759 load is not to be because too light of a load can fail to ignite.

[tek4260]

Maybe soon I can jump in on this. I have that 300gr Mihec HP, so it should be a good bit longer than the 300gr Lee. The length should really add to the instability. Also, it should be easier for my velocity to be lower since I'll be running a 4 5/8 barrel against your 7.5. I have plenty of Trail Boss to try.

Which brings up another point. I get pretty good accuracy at 1080fps from my ragged OM. The same exact load in my 7.5 OM runs over 1300fps. I have no idea how the 7.5" groups as I have only fired it 5 times over the Chrony. That is a pretty much full case of H110, btw

If you want a few of them to try, let me know and I'll ship some.

[cbrick]

I think the problem you'll find with 4759 isn't failure to ignite, it is actually quite an easy to ignite powder. I think that's part of why it's such a versatile powder, doesn't take a primer that blows the bullet out of the case to get it burning. Getting enough in the case could be a big problem though because it is such a bulky powder. I use 4759 in a wide variety of cartridges, I buy it by the 5 or 8 pounder depending on which is available at the time. I have never (yet) tried it in a straight wall cartridge such as the 44m or 357m. It will take some spearmentin to see how much will fit and at what velocity and of course accuracy.

Would be interesting experiments but without having tried it I kinda have doubts of getting enough in the case to be useful.

Rick

[44man]

Ignition in a .44 should not be a problem with 4759 but I have had a failure to ignite in the 45-70 by reducing the charge. I was also using Dacron filler.
It is harder to find light loads for heavy boolits then I ever thought. I just can't take untested stuff and load it. I feel safe with my heavy loads but to stare at a can of Unique and figure how much to try is not a pleasant feeling.
You might consider me over careful but that is the way I am.
What I want to do might prove too hard because safety is first.

[subsonic]

Anybody have quickload and care to run the numbers?

[dubber123]

Jim, .44 mag, 8.0 grains of Unique, CCI 300 primer, 315 gr. WFN GC. 888 fps. average from a 4" barreled S&W 629. That should be a start point for you.

[subsonic]

This is out of my LEE secon edition. It's all I could find so far.
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/cc0d79f7.jpg

[subsonic]

Heres something to consider.

I played with mtn molds boolit design software to get this info.

A 335 gr .432" boolit shaped like a WFN is .9" long, or 2.08 calibers long.
That software suggests a 1:24 twist.

A 420gr .476" boolit shaped like a WFN is .925" long, or 1.94 calibers long.
That software suggests a 1:28 twist.

If the guns both have the same twist, the 44 would need more velocity to spin stabilize.

[subsonic]

http://www.srtarms.com/7744.htm sells a suppressed Ruger 77/44 for shooting subsonic ammo.
They chose a 1:11 twist.

[jwp475]

A Douglas barrel is a better quality barrel than the factory Ruger barrel IMHO & E

[44man]

Great data, I just made some 310 gr boolits.

[Markbo]

Tagged. I hope you keep THIS thread just for the .44 and make new ones for other calibers. Will make it easier to track.
Thanks

[subsonic]

I found some .45 colt data for 325 and 350gr between 650 -1000fps with a few powders including SR4759, H and I4227 and Unique. H110 and 296 are shown right around 1000fps.

What velocity are you trying to hit?

[44man]

I found some .45 colt data for 325 and 350gr between 650 -1000fps with a few powders including SR4759, H and I4227 and Unique. H110 and 296 are shown right around 1000fps.

What velocity are you trying to hit?
I am not going to fool much with my .45 because the twist rate is fast enough. But a 335 gr at 800 fps might show something.
You gave me good stuff for the .44 but what I need now is the .475 and .500 JRH.
I have to cast, lube and age, out of about all boolits.

[subsonic]

There is almost nothing for the JRH, slightly more for the .475.

Hodgdon' website shows TB, Titegroup and Longshot for the .475 and there is .500WE data that should be useable for the JRH.

While you're on that website, compare The .500WE data to Jack's .500JRH data:lol:

[44man]

There is almost nothing for the JRH, slightly more for the .475.

Hodgdon' website shows TB, Titegroup and Longshot for the .475 and there is .500WE data that should be useable for the JRH.

While you're on that website, compare The .500WE data to Jack's .500JRH data:lol:
That is the problem. Powder makers seem to ignore the larger calibers that are still too new.
I am going to mail Jack and see what he says.

[subsonic]

I picked up an old Hodgdon manual, 26th edition the other day. It has a bunch of good stuff in it for .45 Colt 6 shot Ruger only data.
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/cfdfbc5a.jpg
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/56171296.jpg
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/254c1823.jpg
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/6763c171.jpg
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/45e17e90.jpg
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/2187e3b0.jpg

That's all of it.

Since case capacity is really close to .44 mag, you can probably extrapolate from this. Since this is only 30,000 CUP data, and the .44 can go much higher, this should provide starting loads that work.

I'm real curious about SR4759 now. I have said that I didn't think it would work well in the .45 colt, but this data proves that it could with heavy boolits.

[Whiterabbit]

all shooting sites that you can shoot heavy boolits slow with accuracy. So I am starting testing ....


Anyone can join in, test, show groups and the boolit.

50 yards:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40488&stc=1&d=1328471326

100 yards:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40773&stc=1&d=1329086760

Using a 500 grain .452 bullet. Length is around 1.2 inches (>2.5 calibers!). Bullet is on the far right:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/200824f1b9ab528fb7.jpg

[44man]

Top group looks good, any idea the velocity?
I don't like the 3-1/2" group.

[Whiterabbit]

no idea on velocity, but by my best estimates, I very conservatively estimate max loads near 29 grains of 4198, I'm at 25 grains. I think I can go higher based on perceived recoil of the 500 vs, say, a 200 grain bullet going 2400 fps (also a max load in my gun). best estimate I have is a max load in my gun using lilgun and a 500 grain bullet (someone elses load) is 1400 fps. NO idea what my velocity is, I need to make a friend with a chronograph.

I hope to improve on that 3.25" group. significantly. Lord knows I have enough directions to go for improvement.

[44man]

OK, fellas, it proved out. I have run many shots through my .44 the last few days and in every instance, a too heavy and long boolit goes unstable.
I have noticed that my 330 gr shoots super one day and not so good another day--weather?
So I reduced velocity 50 fps, I normally shoot it at 1316 fps, took it to 1266 and groups opened. Then I took it to 982 fps (chrono) and it sprayed the whole cardboard.
I moved to the Lee 310 and it still did real good at 910 fps.
Going to the RD 265 showed nice groups all over the range.
My 330 gr is just too long for the twist and has to be shot at max so it is a borderline weight and length. Anything larger would be a waste of lead.
If you have a slower twist, the cut off will be with a smaller booit.
Shoot your boolit both fast and slow and if it goes to pot, it is too heavy. If it shoots good slow, you made a good choice.
The target here was 50 fps slower with the 330 gr and the spray pattern was slow. The Lee 310 still shot decent slow.

[44man]

Thinking about results will stop me from testing the .475 and .500 JRH. My boolits are not beyond a good weight and length, they are perfect, so they will shoot good slow too. I have nothing too heavy to test with the faster twist BFR's.
If you have a slower twist .475 and have some real heavy boolits you can test it. It doesn't look like I can.
You just can't go heavier then the twist will support.
If you think you can shoot 350 to 405 gr boolits in a .44 or 700 gr boolits in a .500, get the slingshot out, you will do better! :kidding:
I was surprised how quick my boolit went crazy in the .44. I am going down in weight. I am going to call 310 gr tops. Even 20 more gr is too much.

[subsonic]

Thanks for the testing!

Confirms that boolit weight (length,shape,etc) must match velocity.

What happens when you go the other way? Take a short-ish boolit and spin it up too fast.

I am curious about the 200gr Lee RF in the 44 moving at top speed. It is on my list of molds to buy.

[subsonic]

Here is the other question. I have READ that once spun up, a boolit will retain it's spin stability much longer than it will retain velocity. IE, it will drop velocity, but keep spinning close to the rpm it left the muzzle with.

If that is true, then "barely stable" boolits should do OK out past 100yds. If it is not true, then you would be wise to error on the over-stable side.

[44man]

Here is the other question. I have READ that once spun up, a boolit will retain it's spin stability much longer than it will retain velocity. IE, it will drop velocity, but keep spinning close to the rpm it left the muzzle with.

If that is true, then "barely stable" boolits should do OK out past 100yds. If it is not true, then you would be wise to error on the over-stable side.
That is true and why I like a little faster twist because I can download but can never upload past pressure restrictions.
Yes, a lighter boolit can be shot faster too and even though groups might open some, it is never as bad as an under spun boolit.
With the right boolit it is amazing how much velocity change you can have.
My argument has always been with TOO HEAVY, not general boolit weights.
Now lets go back to a 180 to 200 gr in the .44. The range is again reduced to a smaller window. When you get to 240 gr, the velocity range again increases. Just what boolit weight and length gives the widest window for velocity changes would take more work and boolits then I want to shoot. It really is there so you can shoot fast or slow, it is the extremes that fail.
It will always be to find a mid point for each caliber so you can go back and forth. Can you shoot a 300 gr, .44 slow---YES, but forget it if you get to 330 or more. I ran out of 320 gr LBT's so I can't say about them.
That is why I am going to leave the .475 and JRH go because I think I am at the mid point and they will shoot slower too. I do not want to fool with a far out of weight boolit.

[Whiterabbit]

Here is the other question. I have READ that once spun up, a boolit will retain it's spin stability much longer than it will retain velocity. IE, it will drop velocity, but keep spinning close to the rpm it left the muzzle with.

If that is true, then "barely stable" boolits should do OK out past 100yds. If it is not true, then you would be wise to error on the over-stable side.

I think it will also depend on shape factors. a spitzer or HP won't have the pull with respect to precession that a bullet that is basically a cut cylinder (wfn) will. The light nose wouldn't be able to complete with the weight on the nose that that wfn will.

Unfortunately my testing with super-lights won't be useful because along with nose design shape (HP or spitzer, compared to WFN or even RN) includes a bullet material change, I'm not sure if it can be called apples and apples at that point.

[subsonic]

Yes, but how much does precession happen at handgun ranges, ie 200yds and mostly closer?

I wonder how much affect a nose heavy vs base heavy boolit has on stability.

[44man]

I still think it is spin rates. Nose shapes can enter but rifles should not because this is about revolvers.
I see no difference in meplats and accuracy, only when the boolit is too long and heavy. Some WFN boolits are made to be seated deep and are too heavy for the velocity that can be reached so they shoot poorly. It is not the meplat.

[Whiterabbit]

it is when two bullets of identical weight differ in length by .2 inches. The difference? Nose weight. Spitzers get LONG.

I'd love to see a spitzer design of one of your "good" bullet weights, bringing the length to the same as one of your "bad" bullets.

Then see the results of firing it. THAT is compelling information to me!

[Whiterabbit]

Yes, but how much does precession happen at handgun ranges, ie 200yds and mostly closer?

I wonder how much affect a nose heavy vs base heavy boolit has on stability.

No idea when precession starts. Frankly, I had assumed it started immediately, and never thought that it would take time or ease into the precession. It never occured to me to think otherwise.

[DrB]

Yes, but how much does precession happen at handgun ranges, ie 200yds and mostly closer?

I wonder how much affect a nose heavy vs base heavy boolit has on stability.

Bullets are almost always inherently unstable from a static stability standpoint (cg behind cp) and I don't think this is usually important because they either have or do not have dynamic stability due to spin.

Also, it isn't just nose shape but also bullet base shape and crown geometry at bullet exit. We should remember that bore gas pressures are both orders of magnitude greater than freestream pressures and if they apply an asymmetric force it isn't going to be applied consistently over bullet revolutions as typical in free flight (and the lateral perturbation hence averaged out). Instead at bore exit the bullet can get a single kick in the pants to one side or the other (as well as pitching moments imparted).

It is possible to impart yaw and precession during crown separation that is observable right away. Try reversing a bullet so that instead of a sudden separation with gases mostly venting radially from the flat bullet base, the separation is more prolonged with gases venting along the bullet body as the reversed nose exits. My experience is you can have a bullet flying straight one way and yawed/precessing reversed (due, I believe, to the greater gas perturbation on the reversed bullet at exit).

I have tried this with an ss109 type projectile with a steel cone in the nose and lead slug in the shank/tail. While reversed the static stability is improved due to cg shifting forward (lead in front, steel behind), my experience was consistently that reversed bullets were greatly perturbed at similar velocities (gotta remember for the same powder charge a reversed spitzer bullet will yield higher velocities and pressures).

The impact on accuracy of whatever precession exists will be more severe with increasing range as it results in forces that act differently during flight, resulting in diverging trajectories from the aerodynamic forces acting on the bullet. You can shoot precessing bullets through a chrony safely a few feet from the muzzle... Just don't try it down range! :)

[jwp475]

Yes, but how much does precession happen at handgun ranges, ie 200yds and mostly closer?

I wonder how much affect a nose heavy vs base heavy boolit has on stability.



the more weight to the rear of center is the most stable design in a spin stabilized projectile

[subsonic]

it is when two bullets of identical weight differ in length by .2 inches. The difference? Nose weight. Spitzers get LONG.

I'd love to see a spitzer design of one of your "good" bullet weights, bringing the length to the same as one of your "bad" bullets.

Then see the results of firing it. THAT is compelling information to me!

It would likely have to be a jacketed design. Long (heavy) unsuported noses are a bad deal with cast boolits. They tend to slump to one side on takeoff "lead is soft" and any side thrust on the nose will cause more tipping due to increased leverage. Think of a boolit in a rifled barrel with a long bar sticking out of it. Push the bar to the side and imagine what happens to the boolit. Harder alloys can help, and I wonder if softer alloys don't slump and rivet to support themselves to some degree.

Anyway, no facts to back this up, just have read it and discussed it with people who should know.

[44man]

it is when two bullets of identical weight differ in length by .2 inches. The difference? Nose weight. Spitzers get LONG.

I'd love to see a spitzer design of one of your "good" bullet weights, bringing the length to the same as one of your "bad" bullets.

Then see the results of firing it. THAT is compelling information to me!
Not to be in a revolver, most won't chamber and besides, the meplat is for hunting anyway.
I do have a boolit I designed for long range in the .44 but it failed big time. Funny, but it shot pretty good out of the Marlin. I was hoping it would shoot for IHMSA but I never did get it to shoot decent.
Here it is next to a Lee. Notice all the weight is to the rear. It is a waste to cast and load them.
I don't hold to the weight distribution theory. Actual shooting always tells the truth.

[jwp475]

Not to be in a revolver, most won't chamber and besides, the meplat is for hunting anyway.
I do have a boolit I designed for long range in the .44 but it failed big time. Funny, but it shot pretty good out of the Marlin. I was hoping it would shoot for IHMSA but I never did get it to shoot decent.
Here it is next to a Lee. Notice all the weight is to the rear. It is a waste to cast and load them.
I don't hold to the weight distribution theory. Actual shooting always tells the truth.


It is not a theory it is a fact.The Foster Slug Shot from a smooth bore is heavier in the front than the rear. Much like throwing a tootsie pop the heavier weight of the candy will fly ahead of the lighter stick. Slugs designed to be shot from a rifled barrel do not use the nose heavy approach

I am not talking about fin stabilized projectile

[44man]

It is not a theory it is a fact.The Foster Slug Shot from a smooth bore is heavier in the front than the rear. Much like throwing a tootsie pop the heavier weight of the candy will fly ahead of the lighter stick. Slugs designed to be shot from a rifled barrel do not use the nose heavy approach

I am not talking about fin stabilized projectile
Would it not be better to have the center of gravity at the center of a boolit?
You quote but never test, every single thing you post is from what you read. 99.9% has nothing to do with a revolver.
I shoot every few days to test and disprove "theories" that hold no water. You even go out of your way to disprove "real" experts in the ballistic field if I agree with findings.
My purpose is to help others shoot better and better with actual findings while you are only here to dispute me. There is not a single person here that gets your attention like I do.
Do you know there are real people here, wonderful shooters with experience and the best in the world in my opinion. Many new fellas that do not want to hear rants but want to learn.
Can you help with actual experience and join in to help, or will you just keep pounding on me? I refuse to get angry with you, it will not work.
I have too much respect for all here to continue to argue with you.
I have never made a blanket statement or anything that must be done, only tests to see for yourself. That is my way. I never argue if something different is found and I accept it. Who am I to dispute?
Let me tell you something John, I am the last person on earth to tell you I know it all. My friends here teach me every day. You should listen to them.

[jwp475]

I am trying to help.

The only tests that prove anything are ones that isolate all variables, and test all possible combinations. This would be a very daunting task

Prove that a bullet doesn't shoot well in 1 gun and someone else with a different gun can prove that it does, nothing across the board proven except that what one likes the other one doesn't

[44man]

I am trying to help.

The only tests that prove anything are ones that isolate all variables other and test all possible combinations. This would be a very daunting task

Prove that a bullet doesn't shoot well in 1 gun and someone else with a different gun can prove that it does, nothing across the board proven except that what one likes the other one doesn't
Accepted. That is the truth. John, will you take my hand? We have to stop.
Call me again, we are friends.

[jwp475]

John Linebaugh has video of WFN bullets going way off course at distance, LFN's fly straight to distance and the difference is the WFN has more weight forward of center of mass. Despite the fact that WFN's are often very accurate to 100 yards or so. Even Mike Rentoul owner of Grizzly Ammo & Cast Performance Bullets has told me that the 360 grain WLFN is not accurate past a 2 to 300 yards, but his LFN style are accurate to 800 or more yards

Jim these discussions are about accurate information, not personal in the least. The title of this thread is " A joke running around" sounds like some one with their mind made up, hopefully not

[felix]

A boolit design that shoots in all guns is a lucky one when all the variables that make it so in reality are those which self compensate themselves. That's a mouthfull, I know, but the only reliable fact. ... felix

[44man]

Funny that my WFN hit a 6" swinger at 400 yards.
It is so hard for me to fall into things.
Was the Linebaugh test at the right velocity?
I have faith in both the WLN AND WFN.

[jwp475]

Funny that my WFN hit a 6" swinger at 400 yards.
It is so hard for me to fall into things.
Was the Linebaugh test at the right velocity?
I have faith in both the WLN AND WFN.



Again you make a bullet mold that you call a WFN but is it truly to LBT"S spec for a WFN? The right velocity, what is that? I would assume that you mean top end velocity for the cartridge and if so then yes.

400 yards is long, but not as long as 800 yards, Also small variances can be be huge sometimes in bullet performance.


You can call Mr. Linebaugh and ask him directly, also I believe that Lloyd Smale has seen these videos

[felix]

Center of pressure versus center of gravity versus rotation deciphers how accurate the boolit is when and where. ... felix

[Markbo]

Center of pressure versus center of gravity versus rotation deciphers how accurate the boolit is when and where. ... felix

I don't know nothin' about nothin', but I think that is a HUGE oversimplification of accuracy!

[44man]

John, my boolits run 80% to 83% meplats. Do I have to go to 100% to call them a WFN? :veryconfu

[felix]

Markbo, are you thinking accuracy of the person, accuracy of gun, accuracy of boolit, or accuracy of the combination?

[jwp475]

John, my boolits run 80% to 83% meplats. Do I have to go to 100% to call them a WFN? :veryconfu



An LBT bullet from an LBT mould made by Veral Smith has specific parameters that are constant. Not only is it meplat percentages of the bullets diameter, but nose profile and length as well. I have read for years you using LWFN to describe your bullet, and I have seen them and they are not exact by any parameter. You continue to miss the differences. I am not saying that your mould doesn't produce good bullets, just saying that they are not the same as you continue to claim. I am sure that you copied as close as your ability allowed. Your copy of the bullet developed by Jack Huntington for the 500 JRH shoots very well but it is not an exact copy and is not the same bullet. Close? Yes but not the same.

If your bullet that you call WFN shoot good to 800 yards that does not change the fact the the LBT WFN does not as proven by John Linebugh. You claim that Keith bullets do not shoot well, but they are know to be an accurate bullet to very long distance by most that use them. They also have more rea weightr to the rear of center mass

[44man]

I have no other way to describe a boolit. Some are RNFP, WLN, WFN, or true truncated cone ogives.
If you do a search for boolits to buy, you will see all kinds of shapes but the names will be the same as I use.
It is true that I can not get my accuracy requirements with a semi wad cutter. It is because of cylinder and forcing cone alignment that depends on the little shoulder. The ogive is free floating unless you slump the boolit into a WLN.
I did get some to shoot well by taking BHN to 28-30.
You need perfection of cylinder-bore alignment to shoot the things and those guns are few and far between. The reason an accurate revolver has a few thousandths cylinder play is to let the boolit align things and the little shoulder will get wiped off first.
I improved performance by casting a gas check at the front drive band.
Yeah, I am crazy but after fooling with the things for 56 years, I gave up long ago.

[subsonic]

I improved performance by casting a gas check at the front drive band.


I have heard of Paco Kelly doing this too with various boolits and improving accuracy, reducing leading, and allowing higher velocity.

[44man]

I have heard of Paco Kelly doing this too with various boolits and improving accuracy, reducing leading, and allowing higher velocity.
Yes, I have the article. It does work but increases cost today with the GC's made from metal from meteors or unobtainium.
I made a tool to punch out centers of GC's.
I understood the Keith problem long ago and the need for a gas check for softer lead. Both overcome with harder lead and a better ogive.
The Keith was made so it punched a round hole in paper, nothing to do with accuracy. The nose gave better ballistics then a wad cutter. A cross between a RN that was a poor killer and a wad cutter for target.
Only demand because of appearance of loaded rounds keeps it alive.

[white eagle]

I beg to differ
have had Keiths that would always out perform
lfn,and wfn not in every instance but in certain instances

[Whiterabbit]

remember guys, 44man constantly reminds us he is talking about for revolver only. Are your results from a revolver?


Center of pressure versus center of gravity versus rotation deciphers how accurate the boolit is when and where. ... felix

This caught my attention. Center of pressure, geometrically, is a constant. center of gravity, for a bullet design, is constant. Meaning the only thing we can tweak is rotation. And rotation is numeric. Meaning we can calculate on paper how accurate a bullet can be.

So! Felix, I love sitting down and calculating theory then testing it. Helps narrow down where I should be looking for results. Can you take me through how to use center of pressure, center of gravity, and rotation to calculate accuracy? Don't say Miller stability, it doesn't use center of pressure or center of gravity, and the equation gets wonky for pistols.

[white eagle]

first off meplat does the killin
the shape of the nose has very little to do with that
maybe if its such a poor design why has it been around for so long ?
you mean to say there is another kinda gun other than a revolver ?
well will miracles ever cease ???

[44man]

Back in 1956 I had good accuracy with the original 429421 from my flat top and the 29. I also had great accuracy with Thompson's 358156 HP. Since then, no! I have SWC's for a lot of calibers and none has reached what I used to get.
Boolits and molds have been fiddled with too much. Just because it has a shoulder and ogive like a Keith, too many fail.
Could it be the GG? I don't know but I have found 2 to 3 GG's work better. Might be balance but I can't answer.
I still think he shoulder does not align the boolit right if the nose is too small for the bore. Stick the nose in he muzzle and see just how much you can wiggle it.
I have worked with the RCBS, .44 version and they shot much better when very hard. I have no luck if I use a fast load of slow powder in any case.
Here are some groups shot with WW's to start, progressing to 28-30 BHN.

[Markbo]

Have you got a pic of that you can share?

[44man]

Have you got a pic of that you can share?
Nothing from long ago. Back then I had a Bell and Howell movie camera. To show a chuck shot at 600 yards meant to prop the dead chuck up at 50 and shoot it again! :mrgreen:
Making $1.75 an hour meant no cameras and digital was a dream.
I can only say to shoot anything was just a few cents a shot. I remember selling coat hangers as a kid and taking the money to buy penny packs of BB's for my Red Ryder. They came in a long strip that the store tore off depending on how many pennies I had.
Pop bottles for deposit kept me shooting.
Yes, BB's were bought at the corner store and revolvers were sent in the mail. Age did not matter much and I was 19 when I bought my .44 flat top. I was younger for my S&W 27.
I was shooting over 500 yards with the .44 in 1956 and could hit 1" targets at 100 with the 27.
You have no idea what real shooting was.
I had a Ruger standard Mark I and could hold the gun in my left hand, throw a bottle in the air as far as I could with my right hand, grab the gun and break the bottle. That gun cost me $37.50. My brother in law still has it.
You can talk and dispute but you just don't know. Yes I did get accuracy with a Keith but it changed. I do not think I am shooting as good as I did back then.
I shot 1/4" groups at 350 yards with a .220 Swift, 1/2" at 250 yards with a .222 Rem, 3/4" at 100 with a Marlin .22 Mounty, 3/4" at 100 with an original Marlin 25-20 and cast. !" at 100 with a Winchester 71 and cast.
I shot the highest score with an M1 in the army at the 500 KD range, won the trophy, shot 79 out of 80 IHMSA with the SBH and hundreds of 40's with all guns. My .300 Weatherby after work would hold 1/2" at 100 all day and I head shot a woodchuck at 550 yards from sitting. I took hair off a running chuck at 550 yards with the .44 flat top.
The groceries I won with flintlocks and my .54 changed the prize give outs at shoots.
It is gone and is harder to get guns to shoot today. Maybe the shallow rifling, I don't know but revolvers are not the same. I feel the BFR is close.
There is too much difference from one gun to another side by side off the line.
I would rather have an 1892 lever gun then most made today.
The super expensive sniper rifles only exceed the old guns.
Years ago a few bucks would get you a wonderful gun but today you need to sell your home to get one
Markbo, you are not old enough. If you can sling an M1, balance a nickle on the barrel and dry fire without it falling off, you are close.
Then there was the time I would put tape over the hole in a washer, flip it in the air and shoot through the tape but that is another story!
I have lost what none of you ever experienced.
Like Elmer said, "Hell, I was there."
A long time long ago we shot at a quarry and ducks got off the water and flew around but the wind was at least 40 MPH so they went downwind FAST. My friend shot at them as they flew over. I said, "this is how" and pulled a lead on a duck at near 400 yards with my Rem 760 in .270, going maybe 70 to 100 MPH. I busted him. NOT LEGAL, so shut up! :mrgreen:
Can you share pictures?

[jwp475]

Back in 1956 I had good accuracy with the original 429421 from my flat top and the 29. I also had great accuracy with Thompson's 358156 HP. Since then, no! I have SWC's for a lot of calibers and none has reached what I used to get.
Boolits and molds have been fiddled with too much. Just because it has a shoulder and ogive like a Keith, too many fail.
Could it be the GG? I don't know but I have found 2 to 3 GG's work better. Might be balance but I can't answer.
I still think he shoulder does not align the boolit right if the nose is too small for the bore. Stick the nose in he muzzle and see just how much you can wiggle it.
I have worked with the RCBS, .44 version and they shot much better when very hard. I have no luck if I use a fast load of slow powder in any case.
Here are some groups shot with WW's to start, progressing to 28-30 BHN.



A mould made by Lyman for a 429421 was a "KEITH" semi wadcutter exactly as Elmer designed it. Today there are many that call there semi wadcutter a "KEITH" but do not produce the mould exactly a Elmer designed his semi wad cutter. Elmer designed square bottom lube grooves in order to hold the lube better, this made them difficult to get out of the mould. Today with the better lubes this feature is unnecessary IMHO, also many of the SWC produced today have a larger meplat than the one that Elmer designed

[44man]

A mould made by Lyman for a 429421 was a "KEITH" semi wadcutter exactly as Elmer designed it. Today there are many that call there semi wadcutter a "KEITH" but do not produce the mould exactly a Elmer designed his semi wad cutter. Elmer designed square bottom lube grooves in order to hold the lube better, this made them difficult to get out of the mould. Today with the better lubes this feature is unnecessary IMHO, also many of the SWC produced today have a larger meplat than the one that Elmer designed
Elmer knew what he was doing and I will never run him down.
A square bottom groove had nothing to do with a boolit coming out of a mold, only the slight taper does, you do not know what you are talking about. Learn about casting instead of being a know it all.

[jwp475]

Elmer knew what he was doing and I will never run him down.
A square bottom groove had nothing to do with a boolit coming out of a mold, only the slight taper does, you do not know what you are talking about. Learn about casting instead of being a know it all.



Persistent aggressive arrogance

[44man]

Persistent aggressive arrogance
Exactly, you know nothing about molds and relief.

[jwp475]

Exactly, you know nothing about molds and relief.



I believe you are proving the point, just not the point that you intended to prove

[jwp475]

all shooting sites that you can shoot heavy boolits slow with accuracy. So I am starting testing and will expand to other powders and boolit weights starting with the .44. Then on to the .475 and .500 JRH as I find what others are shooting. I don't want to guess at loads because there are no light loads safely listed. I will not post any loads, just velocities.
I started with my super accurate 330 gr WLNGC by taking it to 1000 fps and shooting 50 yards from the bench. This is the boolit that shot 1-5/16" at 200 yards.
I was more then surprised when I heard my 100 yard gong ring with one shot.
Yes, there is a 20" pattern there.



A 400 grain in 475 is a heavy bullet for the 475 Linebaugh, not the heaviest, but heavy none the less


Here you posted the following


bfrshooter
one of us
Posted Sep 27, 9:29 AM Hide Post

I have worked with HS-6 in my .475 with the Lee 400 gr boolit. I used 15 gr's and accuracy at 50 yd's was very good at an inch. Sorry, I never ran it over the chrono so I don't know what it does but it is still a thumper load. I was impressed with the powder.
A small loss in velocity with the short barrel does not make it less of a killer. It just blinds you near dark!

Posts: 4024 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2911043/m/588105639?r=363106739#363106739


By your own words it is possible

[44man]

A 400 grain in 475 is a heavy bullet for the 475 Linebaugh, not the heaviest, but heavy none the less


Here you posted the following


bfrshooter
one of us
Posted Sep 27, 9:29 AM Hide Post

I have worked with HS-6 in my .475 with the Lee 400 gr boolit. I used 15 gr's and accuracy at 50 yd's was very good at an inch. Sorry, I never ran it over the chrono so I don't know what it does but it is still a thumper load. I was impressed with the powder.
A small loss in velocity with the short barrel does not make it less of a killer. It just blinds you near dark!

Posts: 4024 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2911043/m/588105639?r=363106739#363106739


By your own words it is possible
True, the load shot very good from the BFR. It is still a stout load with enough velocity for stability.
I recommend the load. Powders do change things.
Would you ever believe it has something to do with initial pressures?
Do you know I shoot Varget from the 7R and 7BR with 120 gr bullets after Hodgdon said it would not work?
I actually do the work and never make what you call a "blanket" statement. I tell what I find only. It is up to all to test and not believe me. That is not what I say and I will never repeat articles.
I give options but the shooter has to try them even if out of the box but in the safety zone.
I do not care if you believe me or not. Do the work and don't tell me anything unless you also do the work. You just repeat and repeat with no actual experience.
You popped in here and I don't think you ever cast a boolit in your life.
Every single thing I have is for the fine folks here to evaluate yet you come ONLY to dispute me and I have never seen any post from you to help the great people here. Where are your answers to casting problems? Where are your answers about leading? What ever single thread have you posted to unless I say something?
Moderators hate this junk and if I am out of line I will leave by my self. I value everyone here and we can agree and disagree in piece and friendship.
I am going to leave it to my friends here if I have to leave. I will not cry to the moderators either.

[jwp475]

Since I have owned and hunted with a 475 Linebaugh since the first year they were available and there were no commercial bullets available at that time, of course I have cast and reloaded.

My experience as well as others doesn't jive your your claims of the facts

[Lloyd Smale]

Jwp475 hasnt been here long but i am familar with him from other forums and hes an experienced loader caster and especially hunter with the big bores. Hes been at this as long as any of us have. I dont allways agree with him either and weve butted heads in the past ourselves but like you i respect his opinion because it comes from actually shooting and hunting. Surely nobody has to leave or even not voice there opinion here. No one wants to see any experience leave a forum like this. About time to lock this one too and let things cool off before it gets anymore personal. Alot of people including myself come here because there isnt a bunch of petty argument and when there is people just agree to disagree and get on with things.

[felix]

WhiteRabbit, different nose shapes determine a single center of pressure AT a certain boolit velocity and fluid density. The idea is to eliminate any projectile vibe as witnessed by airplanes going through the speed of sound. You may call the center of pressure by another name as long as you understand the principle of why something happens. ... felis

The real joke here is trying to make a BlackBird do the same job at the target as a TankBuster. ... felix