Why Size Boolits

[ltclark]

I am just getting back into molding boolits after over 30 years - I have always sized my boolits because I was told to way back - but I recently read not all boolits have to be sized. Can someone explain when they must be sized and how I would know?

Thanks from the oldtimer who wished he never stopped.

[Reload3006]

your Boolits must be sized if they will not chamber in your gun.

[Sonnypie]

I can't speak for others, but I size mine so they will be consistent.
As cast, they can vary. Pushing them through a Lee sizer and encountering the different amounts of pressure needed for the occasional "fat" one tells me I'm on the right track.
I can't prove it, but I bet asking your favorite chamber to do a high speed sizing as the bullet is fired causes some pretty wide swings in pressures and velocities.
I do some careful checks with my components, why would I want to take that care, then stick any old bullet on top?
I wouldn't.
So I size mine.

[ltclark]

Thanks for that info - exactly what I was thinking but thought I'd ask.

[Sonnypie]

You are welcome.
And Welcome to Cast Boolits!

[Bret4207]

I prefer not to size. It's my opinion that everything we do after casting the boolit carries the chance of damaging the boolit. So, unless I need to, I shoot them as cast. Often this involves using, say, a .314 die with a boolit that drops .311 from the mould for seating the GC and lubing.

If you need to size then work to reduce any misalignment as much as you can and remember that boolit is pretty fragile. Producing 500 sized boolits that are sized crooked is wasted effort.

[PacMan]

Bret4207 would using a .314 die to seat a GC on a .311 bullet not leave the GC .003 larger than the bullet which would effect seating and bullet grip?
Just asking

[Bret4207]

Dwight, it hasn't cropped up as a problem thus far, but I'm watchful for it. Considering I started out applying GC's with a light mallet that provided no crimp and that I'm still using many Lyman old style non-crimping checks you can see that it's a bit more complex or forgiving or involved than it would appear, however you want to term it.

[williamwaco]

Sonnypie + 1.

I shoot about 98% revolver and auto pistol cartridges.

I find that when testing unsized bullets about one in 5 will not chamber and I have to take it home and pull the bullet and replace it with one that has been sized.


I would rather size 100 of them than bring one home.


( I will admit that if they will chamber, they shoot just as good as the sized ones. )
.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Sizing is how you turn crappy out-of-round cast boolets into shootable projectiles. As soon as somebody can sit down and cast .002-.004" o-o-r oval boolets, then size them evenly and perfectly round, then I will agree. But I want to see them shoot.

The fussiest cast bullet shooters in the world are Schuetzen and CBA competitors. They insist on moulds that cast bullets that are round and the proper diameter for their rifle throats. They would no sooner accept a mould that produced cast bullets that needed to be sized to shoot accurately, than they would powder charge using Lee dippers to throw powder.

Tell me, any of you, why you size a good cast bullet? If it is to make it rounder, then you need a new mould.
If you run it through a sizer/luber, then hone out the die to not alter the dimensions, just add lube.

I would REALLY like to hear someone explain how sizing (resizing from as-cast diameter) can make it better.

Handguns don't need it, they aren't accurate enough to benefit unless target accurized.

regards,

Rich

I've shot both types in national competition with cast, my Miller Schuetzen rifle is capable of 10-shot groups at 200yds under .75 moa. My last tuned up Savage 12BVSS shoots in the 4 tenths inch range for 5-shots at 100yds

[imashooter2]

Consistency comes directly from the mold, not distorting different sized castings by pushing them through a same sized hole.

[btroj]

I size many bullets because I need them smaller. I size because I am adding lube at the same time. I size to crimp on a gas check.

I do not size to make bullets "rounder" or "more accurate". I think the bullet as it comes from the mould is as "accurate" as it can be. I can do many things after dropping a bullet from the mould to make it worse buti can't really change the bullet itself in a positive way, can I?

Too many tiny groups have been shot with non sized bullets to say that sizing makes them "better" .

[canyon-ghost]

Handguns don't need it, they aren't accurate enough to benefit unless target accurized.



I beg your pardon? Before you guys throw away lubesizers and scales again, show me the trophies!

[Bret4207]

Sizing is how you turn crappy out-of-round cast boolets into shootable projectiles. As soon as somebody can sit down and cast .002-.004" o-o-r oval boolets, then size them evenly and perfectly round, then I will agree. But I want to see them shoot.

The fussiest cast bullet shooters in the world are Schuetzen and CBA competitors. They insist on moulds that cast bullets that are round and the proper diameter for their rifle throats. They would no sooner accept a mould that produced cast bullets that needed to be sized to shoot accurately, than they would powder charge using Lee dippers to throw powder.

Tell me, any of you, why you size a good cast bullet? If it is to make it rounder, then you need a new mould.
If you run it through a sizer/luber, then hone out the die to not alter the dimensions, just add lube.

I would REALLY like to hear someone explain how sizing (resizing from as-cast diameter) can make it better.

Handguns don't need it, they aren't accurate enough to benefit unless target accurized.

regards,

Rich

I've shot both types in national competition with cast, my Miller Schuetzen rifle is capable of 10-shot groups at 200yds under .75 moa. My last tuned up Savage 12BVSS shoots in the 4 tenths inch range for 5-shots at 100yds

I tend to agree with the thoughts above. Those who think taking a group of out of round, oval shaped boolits and forcing them through a die will somehow make them more uniform need to do some measuring. No boolit is truly "round", all we can do is limit the variations. People think the sizer will do this. Well, yeah, it'll reduce the size of those boolits- and that's an issue. When we run an out or round, oversized boolit through a sizer the lead is swaged and it moves. It does NOT move uniformly to fill the "narrow" spots. In fact the boolit likely moves within the die to a degree following the path of least resistance. Antone who's ever sized some relatively long boolits might have bent a few. They can come out of the sizer with a nice arc.

Anyway, that lead is swaged and it doesn't move to fill the low spots. What it does in increase the length of the boolit to one degree or another. So now you've gone from boolits that varied in diameter to boolits that vary in length AND diameter! Get you mics out and check 50 boolits that you saw as needing to be sized. The more the sizing, the more the variance.

No easy answers in this game, are there?:bigsmyl2:

[3006guns]

I believe it was Richard Lee who first questioned the need for sizing. He asked "If the cast projectile is reasonably round and slightly over groove diameter, why won't the firearm's bore do the sizing?"......or words to that effect.

I've shot quite a few lubed, unsized boolits in my milsurp rifles with good results. I always verified my neck clearance first to make sure there was room for the brass to expand, but other than lubing I just seated them and banged away. Many were as much as .003 over groove diameter and chambered/shot just fine. To paraphrase the Post Office, "If it fits, it shoots".

Don't misunderstand me....I still use my lubrisizer quite a bit, but for those really odd size bores the "as cast" boolit, either aloxed or run through an oversize lube die, is the route I pick.

[felix]

Easy answer, but not cost effective: ALL machinery customized from start to finish: Gun, mold, lead such that no intermediate steps, such as sizers and dies, need to be used. ... felix

[cbrick]

I don't size any bullet that properly fit's the firearm it's to be fired in but I do run them all through the Star Lubrisizer. If it already fits what are you going to size it to and why would you want to? If the bullet fits without sizing like Bret I use a die large enough that it doesn't size the bullet but does lube and if needed seat the check. Un-like Bret I use a die that's about .001" over as cast diameter, not .003".

Howard Hughes would cringe at the cost if all of our casting/shooting had to be done with custom single cavity molds and fired from custom chambered firearms simply to avoid the sizing process. One reality of life is mass production of both molds and firearms, another is that bullet sizing is frequently a necessity, like it or not.

Rick

[1bluehorse]

The only reason I run mine thru a sizer is to lube em'.....my bullets drop from the mold at .453, (or so), my bore measures .451, (or so), cyl throats measure .4525, (or so), [smilie=1: so I don't see where running them through a sizing die at .452, (or so), is going to make much difference, especially with my shooting skills with a 45 colt handgun. The lube thing is a different matter..I WANT to like alox swirl-a-lube, it's quick and a heck of a lot easier than runnin everything thing through a lubrasizer, buuutttt, something just doesn't seem right to me when I look at them as I'm loading them...no pan lubing thank you, I'm just having trouble convincing myself that liquid alox on non tumble lube bullets works..and no, I've not had any problems with it that I can discern, but theres just that little voice back there that keeps saying "this shouldn't woooeeerrrrrkk".......

[Bret4207]

I believe it was Richard Lee who first questioned the need for sizing. He asked "If the cast projectile is reasonably round and slightly over groove diameter, why won't the firearm's bore do the sizing?"......or words to that effect.

I've shot quite a few lubed, unsized boolits in my milsurp rifles with good results. I always verified my neck clearance first to make sure there was room for the brass to expand, but other than lubing I just seated them and banged away. Many were as much as .003 over groove diameter and chambered/shot just fine. To paraphrase the Post Office, "If it fits, it shoots".

Don't misunderstand me....I still use my lubrisizer quite a bit, but for those really odd size bores the "as cast" boolit, either aloxed or run through an oversize lube die, is the route I pick.

I mean absolutely no offense to you 3006, but Richard Lee was NOT the first to think of anything! The "size or not" discussion goes back to well before repeating rifles were common place or earlier. Read Keith, Haines, Naramore, Whelen, Roberts or Mattern and you'll find everything from vague references to outright statements regarding the advisabilty of sizing. Read Pope and the men of his era and they really got into it! In contemporary terms Uncle Al Miller (I miss ya Al!!!) wrote an article titled "Cutting them down to size" in Handloader back in the late 70's/early 80's that covered everything I noted and I believe Jim Carmichael cover that ground too along with Rick Jamison and our own Mike Venturino! Nothing against Mr Lee, but lets not add more fuel to the fires claiming any of what we do is plowing virgin sod!

[L Ross]

With no criticism intended. If you are getting some castings fatter than the majority you are not closing your mould completely. After gently closing the mould I give a light tap on the handle jaw next to the block to make certain the blocks are closed the same every time. Those fatter bullets are also heavier, sizing doesn't change that.

Duke

[WRideout]

I have shot boolits both sized and unsized. It really depends on what you are doing with them. I regularly use cast 38 WC in my Smith Mod 19, unsized and pan lubed. As a light target load (meaning plinking) I have never had leading or accuracy issues. As far as rifle, I have shot some sized and some unsized, in my interarms 30-06. If I were going to a HP match, I would probably want to eliminate all the variables by running through a sizer die. Plus, it is easy to install a gas check while lubing. I have never had any trouble with PB boolits pan lubed in the '06. However, I have only used it for plinking and never actually checked the accuracy. It is minute of tin can, though.

Wayne

[imashooter2]

I have shot boolits both sized and unsized. It really depends on what you are doing with them. I regularly use cast 38 WC in my Smith Mod 19, unsized and pan lubed. As a light target load (meaning plinking) I have never had leading or accuracy issues. As far as rifle, I have shot some sized and some unsized, in my interarms 30-06. If I were going to a HP match, I would probably want to eliminate all the variables by running through a sizer die. Plus, it is easy to install a gas check while lubing. I have never had any trouble with PB boolits pan lubed in the '06. However, I have only used it for plinking and never actually checked the accuracy. It is minute of tin can, though.

Wayne

Sizing doesn't eliminate the variables. It just moves the variables around...

[Bob Krack]

No insult to anyone here intended, but the only reasonable justification I saw here was the one mentioning that you could feel the difference in sizing resistance (Sonny Pie?). If you do feel that extra resistance, you have a larger or harder boolit.

If you are sizing with that intent, I would consider it a way to cull, rather than a way to increase usefulness.

I certainly can see the merits of running it through a sizer that is .001 larger than desired diameter to lube and/or seat gas checks and that will tell you (by the handle pressure) that it is oversize.

There are many here that I respect greatly that refuse to shoot a boolit that has not been sized, and if that works for them, GREAT.

I do NOT size UNLESS I am trying to shoot a boolit that I know or am pretty certain is oversize to chamber.

So, itclark, I do believe most here would NOT refuse to associate with you simply because you did size or did not.

Bob

[emrah]

Well, I am a relatively new caster (less than a year) so take my opinion for what it's worth. However, I find that my boolits DO end up uniform after I run them through a Lee push-through sizer. This is for .45 ACP, the 170gr. 309-170 and 314299 molds. All will come out slightly out of round; maybe even by a thousandth or two when measured one way versus 90 degrees the other way.

I also size them to make them all uniform in diameter. Maybe my casting technique needs work, but I find that the overall diameter can vary by a couple (few?) thousands as well. My .45 ACP's might drop .452 all the way to .454 or more. And sometimes misshapen.

Again, maybe it's a technique thing, or an alloy thing, or a temperature thing, whatever. The point is, after push-through sizing, all my boolits are uniform in diameter.

Have I tried shooting them as-cast? Nope. Maybe I should. I was just always under the impression that .002 to .003 over groove diameter was just dandy. But any more than that and it starts to get dangerous as there is too much resistence.

Emrah

[Bret4207]

I don't size any bullet that properly fit's the firearm it's to be fired in but I do run them all through the Star Lubrisizer. If it already fits what are you going to size it to and why would you want to? If the bullet fits without sizing like Bret I use a die large enough that it doesn't size the bullet but does lube and if needed seat the check. Un-like Bret I use a die that's about .001" over as cast diameter, not .003".

Howard Hughes would cringe at the cost if all of our casting/shooting had to be done with custom single cavity molds and fired from custom chambered firearms simply to avoid the sizing process. One reality of life is mass production of both molds and firearms, another is that bullet sizing is frequently a necessity, like it or not.

Rick

If I owned a .312 die I'd use that!:bigsmyl2:

[Bret4207]

Emrah, check boolit length before and after sizing. You may get more or less uniformly sized booit in terms of diameter, but now they vary more in length! It's a krap shoot either way. And them to top it off we plop those boolits in the butt with a big ol' mess of pressure that does...what???? to them?

Sometimes I think it's a wonder we even hit the paper.

[cgm]

This thread convinced me to try unsized bullets out of my RCBS 45-201 with range scrap...... I have an RCBS lubrisizer which is good but, a big pain if you are trying to crank out volume. I tumble lubed with my usual homemade lube of BW and tallow.

Today, I went to the range to compare results. Happily, that I can tell, there is no difference in accuracy or, leading. Mind you, I am a bullseye shooter shooting one handed at 50 and 25 yds. So, the grouping I can expect or, need is not what a benchrest shooter is looking for.

For my purposes, I think I'm retiring the lubrisizer for now!

[StratsMan]

hehe... I sense a glut of sizers and dies about to hit the Swap-n-Sell section....

[imashooter2]

hehe... I sense a glut of sizers and dies about to hit the Swap-n-Sell section....

Probably not. People are mired in their traditions and well, lubesizers are just way to convenient a method to apply lube for folks to give them up. Heck, I'm an unsized advocate and I have two 45s and two 450s...

[Bret4207]

Probably not. People are mired in their traditions and well, lubesizers are just way to convenient a method to apply lube for folks to give them up. Heck, I'm an unsized advocate and I have two 45s and two 450s...

Me too.

[1bluehorse]

Just because the BR crowd wouldn't shoot a sized bullet means nothing to me. I get good results (for me) using bullets sized and lubed through my lubrasizer. Accuracy is as good as I can shoot, and I get minimal leading. I tried unsized and tumble lubing and the results I got weren't as good. Accuracy was fine (no better or worse) but the leading wasn't....so for you fella's that think sizing is a waste of time, or that it deforms, or in some way "unaccurizes" your bullets, if you have a Star sizer or dies, I could use another one. Would consider other brands with dies as well. Probably won't happen though, huh???? :coffee:

[felix]

The individual BR shooter has a different goal than 99.9 percent of us on this board. Keep that in mind at all times to keep such frustrations away. We don't like to compete with the weather, and most of us won't even think of "sighting in" a gun when the weather is NOT nice. ... felix

[.357MAN]

Throwing in another variable. What about boolit hardness? I have always thought that when soft boolits ( say 11 BHN ) are sized the deformation is shallow and only affects the outer circumference of a boolit and doesn't alter the interior, and thus length and straightness. But when the bullet is hard ( say 18 BHN) the deformation when sized is deeper, reaching the core of the bullet and deforming length and straightness.
A good example of this is when a member tried use a hornady collet bullet puller to make a plain base boolit into a gas-check bullet. He used the collet to crush the boolit base so a gas-check could fit. He found it worked on hard boolits, making a nice flat gas-check base. But soft boolits would make a bowl shaped base.

.357MAN

[1bluehorse]

Don't mean to hijack the thread (which I'm doing) 357 Man, you much be close to where I live, thats the same view of Mt Adams I have out back........

[.357MAN]

My dad took that picture when we where on a road-trip, I don't actually live near it. It's an amazing view, I would love to have a view like it from my back yard.

[emrah]

So I'm a little confused and have some questions for the "not sizing" crowd regarding this thread:

1. Are you saying that you will shoot ANY and ALL cast boolits that fall out of your mold without sizing?

2. Are you measuring all the boolits prior to loading and shooting?

3. If there are size variances, how large is TOO large for you to load?

4. If you do measure, do you care if the boolit is not uniform? Say a boolit measuring .310 one way, and .313 when measured 90 degrees off?

5. If you do NO measure, how do you know that the boolit isn't too oversized and dangerous?

Just curious.

Emrah

[zxcvbob]

Any boolit that passes visual inspection, I shoot it. I have a Lubrisizer, but haven't used it in about 2 years.

[Iron Mike Golf]

I shot for (pun intended) casting for my desired diameter. I use my lubrisizer both to lube and as a go/no-go gauge. Boolits from the mold at the desired diameter just kiss the die and have a tiny bit of resistance. If I need to use enough force on the ram to "size" the boolit, then it's oversize and thus overweight. I put those in the remelt bin.

[Bret4207]

So I'm a little confused and have some questions for the "not sizing" crowd regarding this thread:

1. Are you saying that you will shoot ANY and ALL cast boolits that fall out of your mold without sizing? No, I'm saying that if I have a mould that drops a usable boolit for a particular gun and the as cast boolits will chamber and shoot well, I'll use them as is. That doesn't mean I don't inspect and reject those that appear flawed beyond my anal retentiveness level.

2. Are you measuring all the boolits prior to loading and shooting? No, not usually. Whats the difference between sizing boolits that may run up to, say, .002 +/- and making them different lengths and diameters and using them as cast and letting the barrel do the sizing?

3. If there are size variances, how large is TOO large for you to load? Depends on the gun, but there is the question of which variance? Diameter, length, out of round, weight? I'd like to have all my boolits be within a certain set of parameters, but I don't have a hard figure for you.

4. If you do measure, do you care if the boolit is not uniform? Say a boolit measuring .310 one way, and .313 when measured 90 degrees off? Well, if it's .310 one way and .313 the other and .750 inch long before running it through the sizer and you need it to be .311 and it has a .310 skinny side but now it's .754 long and the next one is .311 and .313 and after sizing is .751 long.......what bothers you more? What's it measure after exiting the barrel?

5. If you do NO measure, how do you know that the boolit isn't too oversized and dangerous? With cast, if it chambers freely it's good to go with my loads. Maybe if I was running a 459 SuperdoopertacticaleliteMAGNUMB at 37 bazillion miles a second it would be a concern. But I'm not, and I want to fill the throat as much as I can to start with, so I'm going to size to the throat and if it's too big for the throat it won't chamber anyway.

Just curious.

Emrah

Look, I understand what you're hashing out in your head. You keep thinking about uniformity and decreasing the variables and that part is right. But I'm telling ya, you take a run of 100 boolits, visually inspected, and then measure them before and after sizing and I bet if you broke them up into groups by diameter, out of round and length you'd have about 60 groups. Sizer dies do not produce "round" boolits. They may make them more or less uniform than they were prior to sizing, but that doesn't mean that every boolit coming out of the sizer is within a millionth of exactly the same diameter. They may be a half or 3/4 of a thou or more different across your sample. And if you're into multiple cavity moulds it varies even more and then you have to consider where the lead you displace in sizing goes. It doesn't magically fill in voids or skinny spots.

Shooting them as cast may seem like a haphazard way of doing things. I thought so too at one time. So I cast a mess of boolits for my rifle, ruthlessly culled them before and after sizing and weighed them out into groups by the quarter grain. And just as I was told would happen, in the end I could not tell the difference between my "perfect" boolits, shot in their groups of 5 weighing the exact same, sized the exact same and my not so perfect "culls". And just as I was told might happen, some of the culls shot tighter groups than my perfect boolits!

I don't know why. All I can do is guess and look at my results. In my mind, unless I'm going for big bucks.....there just aren't enough hours in my life to spend worrying about this stuff. If a gun shows a preference for .3115 boolits from a certain mould, then I'll size them to .3115. If another boolit for the same gun drops them into acceptable groups right out of the mould, then that's just gravy for me! If the boolit needs a GC, I'll probably use a sizer dies slightly larger than the as cast diameter UNLESS THE GUN TELLS ME DIFFERENT! In the end, it doesn't matter what you or I or the reloading guru down at Billy Jim Bobs Bait, Tackle and Beauty Parlor says- what does your gun say about that boolit, with that powder/brass/primer/lube/etc?

That my friend, is who you should listen to.

[emrah]

Makes a lot of sense. I guess my biggest questions (reservations?) were regarding dangerously oversize boolits, not uniformity. You answered those.

My C309-170 is gas checked, so it gets run through the Lee push through sizer (.311) to get the GC crimped on so I'll keep doing that. I run my .45 ACP boolits through a .452 sizer. I'll have to try and load a batch of as-cast ones just to see the difference.

Emrah

[imashooter2]

You have to have refined your technique to the point that you are getting boolits consistently at the size that the mold will drop. If you are getting wide variations in diameter and out of round from not squeezing the handles the same or getting lead on the face of the blocks, etc., then you will get the occasional failure to chamber.

[Bret4207]

You have to have refined your technique to the point that you are getting boolits consistently at the size that the mold will drop. If you are getting wide variations in diameter and out of round from not squeezing the handles the same or getting lead on the face of the blocks, etc., then you will get the occasional failure to chamber.

Yeah, I guess I should qualify things with, "Once you learn to cast good boolits".

[popper]

So we shouldn't size the CB, just put them in the barrel that SIZES them. The lead still has to go someplace. Lengthen the CB, put tails on a PB, fill in lube grooves, make the CB out of balance, etc. Hmm, now if I could afford that $2000 bbl to put on my 336. I will agree with sonnypie - it does help with QC. I've just started casting and haven't gotten good enough for the perfect bullet. I cast so I can shoot more. When I get to needing BR accuracy, I'll try 'as cast'. So far reliability in chambering in my SA is more important.

[Bret4207]

You miss the point Popper. You can do whatever you want to do. Makes zero difference to me. I'm not telling anyone to do or not do anything. I'm offering my thoughts on the reasons to do or not do this, why our methods of sizing are not perfect, giving us perfect boolits, why it's not "unsafe", etc. That's all.

Since you've just started you're still at the basic levels of the game, so I'll give you a big old hunk of advice- Fit is King in this game and never, ever, let your preconceived notions rule anything out.

Giving an attitude about something you've never even tried and don't understand won't help much either.

[imashooter2]

Giving an attitude about something you've never even tried and don't understand won't help much either.

And let the people say, "Amen!"

[1bluehorse]

Well all you fellas that are really "in the know" are telling me that either my molds are junk because they don't drop bullets that are round and within "whatever" spec, or my casting technique is bad because I can't get my molds to drop bullets that are round and within spec. Also my lubrasizer (that I paid big bucks for with it's "in spec" dies) is actully junk and ruining any "good" bullets that I may be casting (from my good molds if I have any) by making them: to long, to fat, to skinny, bent like a banana, crushed lube grooves, or a multitude of other things that will make the bullet just a useless blob of lead worth nothing more than to remelt. Have I got it right so far?????? Wow, just think of all the thousands upon thousands of dollars people have spent on those useless Lubrasizers (except for seating GCs) when all they really needed were just better molds and LLA....:bootgive:

[imashooter2]

Well all you fellas that are really "in the know" are telling me that either my molds are junk because they don't drop bullets that are round and within "whatever" spec, or my casting technique is bad because I can't get my molds to drop bullets that are round and within spec. Also my lubrasizer (that I paid big bucks for with it's "in spec" dies) is actully junk and ruining any "good" bullets that I may be casting (from my good molds if I have any) by making them: to long, to fat, to skinny, bent like a banana, crushed lube grooves, or a multitude of other things that will make the bullet just a useless blob of lead worth nothing more than to remelt. Have I got it right so far?????? Wow, just think of all the thousands upon thousands of dollars people have spent on those useless Lubrasizers (except for seating GCs) when all they really needed were just better molds and LLA....:bootgive:


So explain how distorting a bullet twice is superior to distorting it once.

[1bluehorse]

I can't expain any of the preceding...I'm not the one who says sizing a bullet "distorts" it in any way...as Slick Willy would say "it depends on what your idea of (distort) means"..maybe our views differ....

[Bret4207]

Well all you fellas that are really "in the know" are telling me that either my molds are junk because they don't drop bullets that are round and within "whatever" spec, or my casting technique is bad because I can't get my molds to drop bullets that are round and within spec. Also my lubrasizer (that I paid big bucks for with it's "in spec" dies) is actully junk and ruining any "good" bullets that I may be casting (from my good molds if I have any) by making them: to long, to fat, to skinny, bent like a banana, crushed lube grooves, or a multitude of other things that will make the bullet just a useless blob of lead worth nothing more than to remelt. Have I got it right so far?????? Wow, just think of all the thousands upon thousands of dollars people have spent on those useless Lubrasizers (except for seating GCs) when all they really needed were just better molds and LLA....:bootgive:

By all means, go ahead and do as you wish. No need for you to consider anything outside your comfort zone. Your attempts at being an offensive dipwad were entirely successful, so have at it.

[1bluehorse]

Thank you very much for the kind words...it's not easy being an offensive dipwad, for some it comes naturally but for me I have to work at it. Glad I got it right..

[JohnFM]

Comments like these recently sure make it tough for someone deciding to start casting bullets to understand the whys and hows of lubrisizers.

[Sonnypie]

Consistency comes directly from the mold, not distorting different sized castings by pushing them through a same sized hole.

So do tell, are you using a rubber barrel?
My chambers and barrels happen to be fairly distinctly sized holes.

Some of these posts are dumber than teeth in the street.

[stubshaft]

If it works for you and you get the results you want then continue on with it.

[imashooter2]

So do tell, are you using a rubber barrel?
My chambers and barrels happen to be fairly distinctly sized holes.

Some of these posts are dumber than teeth in the street.

All bullets get shot through the barrel and are subject to the manufacturing tolerances of that barrel and its alignment to the chamber. This is unavoidable, but we try to minimize the impact by matching the bullet to the firearm and getting as consistent a bullet as possible from the best mold we can obtain.

Squeezing them through a machine with at least 4 manufacturing tolerance stack ups plus the clearances required to allow operation will not improve a bullet that does not drop from the mold consistently to start with. Further, distorting the as cast bullet through that machine does not remove variance, but instead adds more. This is easily avoidable. Please explain why you wouldn't avoid it?

[1bluehorse]

Comments like these recently sure make it tough for someone deciding to start casting bullets to understand the whys and hows of lubrisizers.

As you can see John there's somewhat differing opinions on the subject. Some obviously like unsized bullets and use various ways for lubing them. Some others (me for one) like using a sizer to not only size to whatever dia. I feel I need for my use but it's also the way I prefer to lube my bullets. I've tried unsized bullets with liquid alox lube, it's fast and easy to use but I didn't like the results. No issue with accuracy, but I did get more leading with the alox. Granted I didn't do hundreds of tests so nothing "scientific" with my findings, but for me, using a lubrasizer isn't a big issue as far as effort, I get zip leading with the lube I use, and accuracy is as good as the unsized bullets using the liquid alox were, so why change. Thats my take on the whole thing and as long as the bullets keep going where I want them to I'll keep deforming them through my lubrasizer...if my preceding comments/posts were out of line, well, sometimes the fingers get ahead of the brain on these forums..

[imashooter2]

I do not argue against the use of lubrisizers to apply lube. I use lubrisizers to apply lube without sizing on a regular basis. The system is very convenient.

[Bret4207]

If people would actually read the postings here, there would be little confusion. The issue was not should you size or not, but what are the pro and cons of doing so. Having absolute faith in a lubrisizer producing perfectly concentric, round, equally sized boolits is just accepting a whole nuther set of variables as "normal". People who have never even tried shooting as cast feel compelled to run down the idea it seems. So let me put it this way, since some folks apparently missed it- I use both methods. I use 4 different sizers, 2 Lymans, an RCBS and a Lee. All work well. I also shoot a lot of as cast, many LUBED IN THE SIZER using oversized dies. It works. I use that method when the gun indicates it likes it. Both methods work, as does Mule Snot within it's capabilities.

End of story.

[JohnFM]

"If people would actually read the postings here, there would be little confusion."

:roll: I know there's as much art as science and as many opinions as casters, but this all does lead some of us interested in the cast your own business in a round robin.

Even though there's more guns around here than people and almost everyone I know reloads, I only know a couple guys who have ever cast their own bullets.
Be nice if I could find somebody with a variety of equipment for sizing and lubing I could try out, sure make it easier.

I've been shooting commercially cast .358 sized in my S&W 19-3 and they seem to work good. I think I'm still going to slug the barrel for a check and then order a mold that looks like something I want, a 158grn RN probably, that will throw the size I figure I need.

Then how to lube, :-?, the little Lee sets don't look like they'll cost much to try out so I guess that's the way I'll go for a start.
See how as cast size looks, try the tumble lube with that soft lube, and see how that works.
Then I can run through the sizer too.

Maybe in the interim I'll run across somebody setup with the whole 9 yards and won't fly blind as it were for too long trying to find the sweet spot.

[gwpercle]

I vote size , lube and seat the gas check with a lube/sizer. I can change the dia. of my boolits. I have A Taurus 455, snub nosed 45 acp revolver with tight chambers. Must be made for jacketed ammo because if the cast boolits are sized .452 they will not go all the way into the chambers....but when sized .451 , no problem. And the thing is scary accurate... all those min. dimensions must help. The cylinder throats measure .451. But if for whatever reason , I can custom fit my boolits to chamber or bbl. dia. by just sizing up or down. Shooting " As Cast " leaves you at the mercy of the mould and alloy...that's not much control.

I've tried tumble lubed , as cast , and it does work...I just don"t like the way the boolits look. All covered with a brown varnish looking coating... not for me.

[Bret4207]

I vote size , lube and seat the gas check with a lube/sizer. I can change the dia. of my boolits. I have A Taurus 455, snub nosed 45 acp revolver with tight chambers. Must be made for jacketed ammo because if the cast boolits are sized .452 they will not go all the way into the chambers....but when sized .451 , no problem. And the thing is scary accurate... all those min. dimensions must help. The cylinder throats measure .451. But if for whatever reason , I can custom fit my boolits to chamber or bbl. dia. by just sizing up or down. Shooting " As Cast " leaves you at the mercy of the mould and alloy...that's not much control.

I've tried tumble lubed , as cast , and it does work...I just don"t like the way the boolits look. All covered with a brown varnish looking coating... not for me.

:killingpc:groner:

Never mind, I've wasted my time. In fact, I think some of you guys should just close the door and your minds entirely and just buy your boolets, get the really, really hard ones. I hear they work better.

[rbertalotto]

Amazing the direction some of these threads can take............

Coming from the Benchrest Shooting side of the sport, lots of discussions about why and why not do something develop. Many of these "theories" are back up by extreme science, extreme measurement technics and by thousands upon thousands of scores at actual shoots.

Trends and themes develop. The 6PPC cartridge is the absolute leader in BR accuracy. Could some other cartridge out do it. Possibly, but it hasn't been done in 20 years. Loading cases by volume and not weight is the overwhelming way to put powder in a case. This has been tested thousands of times and results remain with volume loading. Is this because everyone is cautious about attempting something new? Not likely, the BR crowd are huge experimenters. The fact is, the 6PPC is simply a supremely accurate cartridge and volume, not weigh powder measurements have proven to be more accurate.

In the case of BR bullets. Measuring with nuclear laboratory measuring devices is not unheard of. Some folks use their lunch breaks at their employ to the best advantage. Lots of the BR crowd are actually rocket scientists. And they measure, refine, test, record and report. It all betters the sport.

In this discussion I see folks arguing about sizing distorting a bullet. I'm relatively new to casting. Has anyone verified this scientifically with an optical comparator or some other means?

Is there any written record of what procedures folks are using to make bullets and how they perform in competition? Can we see that "X" percent of winning shooters are not sizing bullets. Over the long history of competitive Silhouette and target lead bullet shooting you'd think there would be volumes of this information.

Just trying to keep the conversation going..............

[Jammer Six]

If your population really hasn't looked at another cartridge in twenty years, I question your results.

[emrah]

He didn't say they didn't look at other cartridges. He said it hasn't been outdone by other cartridges.

Emrah

[rbertalotto]

I question your results


Hundreds of thousands of bullets fired from 6PPC and matches won around the world results in results being unquestionable...........

Lots of other cartridges have been tried, but they just can't compete........

[imashooter2]

As for the "Has anyone verified this scientifically with an optical comparator or some other means?" question...

There is no need for fancy equipment. A simple micrometer will show you the differences in length. Often times you can see with your naked eye changes in lube groove width and uneven movement of the metal.

[Iron Mike Golf]

...In this discussion I see folks arguing about sizing distorting a bullet. I'm relatively new to casting. Has anyone verified this scientifically with an optical comparator or some other means?...

I suspect that something really interesting and useful would be to examine and compare CG info before and after sizing as well as looking at the boolit base before and after sizing. Can sizing push the CG off the boolit's axis? Can it bring it to the boolit's axis?

I also have to wonder about the effect of the amount of sizing being done.