martini rifle

[johniv]

Gentelmen ; I have a martini "rook and rabbit" rifle(newly aquired) This rifle has NO markings outside of one proof mark on the front of the reciever. Under the forend and under the lever it is marked"w.g." , also under the forend are 2 more proof marks and the #105 on the bbl. The front of the reciever (against the forend ) it is marked "380" Caliber, I presume? The bore slugs .364" and the rifle shoots theshortened .38 spl case.
So much for background, my question is does anyone know if proper disassembly should be started "cocked" or "uncocked"? None of the Martini sites that I have searched covers this rifle, as the full sized Martini is illustrated as being uncocked for removal of the breech block, and disassembly of the Cadet this is not covered. I have found that my breech block cannot be removed uncocked as the firing pin contacts the bottom of the chamber.
If any of you have any experince with this type of rifle, I would like to hear your thoughts. Or as a onetime presidential hopeful said"I'm all ears".
John

[Bigjohn]

Gentelmen ; I have a martini "rook and rabbit" rifle(newly aquired) This rifle has NO markings outside of one proof mark on the front of the reciever. Under the forend and under the lever it is marked"w.g." , also under the forend are 2 more proof marks and the #105 on the bbl. The front of the reciever (against the forend ) it is marked "380" Caliber, I presume? The bore slugs .364" and the rifle shoots theshortened .38 spl case.
So much for background, my question is does anyone know if proper disassembly should be started "cocked" or "uncocked"? None of the Martini sites that I have searched covers this rifle, as the full sized Martini is illustrated as being uncocked for removal of the breech block, and disassembly of the Cadet this is not covered. I have found that my breech block cannot be removed uncocked as the firing pin contacts the bottom of the chamber.
If any of you have any experince with this type of rifle, I would like to hear your thoughts. Or as a onetime presidential hopeful said"I'm all ears".
John

The answer to your question depends on whether or not yours is a "Fancotte" type action.

With Cadet rifles, the mechcanism is built on a frame which fits into the receiver (breech block, trigger, operating lever, extractor, everything). This is held in place by one cross pin at the front of the receiver.

If yours is this type, after removing this pin by squeezing together the open ends of the pin and pulling it out of the receiver, then you will need to lower the lever, dropping the front end of the breech block and withdrawing the extractor claws from the slots in the rear end of the barrel. Pulling down on the front of the trigger guard should pivot the action off the locating lug at the rear of the action.

It would be helpful to see a photo of the action to determine in I am correct with my identification of your action. W. Greener did make a series of these rifle for both military and commercial use. I have never seen one in the calibre you describe, yet.

John.

[johniv]

Sir , thanks for your info. My rifle is a bit different, unlike the cadets I have seen, it has the cocking indicator on the right side like the full size models as well as a saftie . Also except for the cocking indicator, screws are used instead of split pins. the trigger guard and lever are removed out the bottom as you describe but the breech block is immobile because of the firing pin. I'm sorry but I am unable to post pictures at this time.Looking at the breech from the bottom with the guts removed I think it comes out as you describe, but the F.P. must be retracted.
Again thanks for your help.
John

[The Double D]

I don't know which Martini action you have, most likely a variation of the MH or Greener Martini...cocked or uncock shouldn't matter with either type.

Does it look like this one?

http://www.fototime.com/7869424CC4382B8/standard.jpg

First remove breech block hinge pin, pull lever down and breech block should pop out. If it doesn't remove extractor pivot pin and pull the front of the trigger down, then open lever and breech block should pop out.

When you pull the lever down the firing pin should be retracted. If it isn't then some thing is wrong inside, maybe even assembled wrong.

If that is the case then remove the Cocking indicator and extractor pivot pin and pull the guard out the bottom.

Of course if you have removed the trigger guard assembley first and not the block, the firing pin will be fully forward and you will have difficulty getting the block out. You will need to hold the action in a vise and using a screw driver in the striker slot from the bottom of the action pull the striker to the rear while pushing down on the front of the block from the top. Might even take two people to do.

Disassembly instructions for Greener patterns are found here http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=59333

For Martini Henry Patterns go here www.martinihenry.com

The Breech block is always the first thing out and the last thing in.

[johniv]

Ah so, breech block out first. Thank you so much. Yes it does look like that one, only not in such good shape, and as I said no markings at all on the outside. Yes I have had the trig guard and lever out , no problems at all till the breach block, the instructions that I read online made no mention of any problem with the breech..
Well I'll try it breech block first. This is a nice old gun and I guess I'm being a bit fussy. Anyhoo thanks for the tips .
John

[PPpastordon]

Johniv;
"The front of the reciever (against the forend ) it is marked "380" Caliber, I presume? The bore slugs .364" and the rifle shoots theshortened .38 spl case."

IIRC, 380 would be the British designation for the cartridge known as the .38 S&W in this country. The bore slugs about correct for that. British loads usually have a 200 grain lead (cast) boolit; thus frequently called the .380/200 when chambered in a revolver.
Hope this info helps.

[NoDakJak]

Considering that is is a small Martini and having that bore diameter I would hazard a guess that it is chambered for the 360 #5 Rook Cartridge. This was probably the most common of the Rook cartridges. I have an almost identical Martini chambered for the round. The 360 uses a heel type bullet. You might try using a 357 hollowbase wadcutter with mild charges. Some people eport good results with this load. Neil

[NoDakJak]

Whoa Hoss!!! I just reread my last entry and there may have been some misunderstanding in the way that I wrote it. I use a 38 Special case trimmed back to fit the chamber with a hollowbase wadcutter seated out a bit. I don't really like the hollowbase wad cutters because if you get a little carried away with pressures you may blow the center out and stick a bullet in the bore. My specimen has a bore that is tight enough that I can fire an unsized Lyman 358429 and achieve accuracy good enough for close range bunnies.
(Very close range) Neil

[Frank46]

Pull the cocking lever down all the way while holding the trigger back all the way. This will allow the firing pin to retract and holding the trigger back all the way should allow you to swing the entire frame while rotating the trigger group/frame from front towards the back of the receiver. Hope this helps. Frank

[The Double D]

Pull the cocking lever down all the way while holding the trigger back all the way. This will allow the firing pin to retract and holding the trigger back all the way should allow you to swing the entire frame while rotating the trigger group/frame from front towards the back of the receiver. Hope this helps. Frank

Frank your instructions are correct for a Francotte pattern Martini, but he indicated that he had a standard pattern martini. Breech block out first in that one.

[Frank46]

Double D, thanks for correcting my instructions, read the post and thought cadet or 12/15. CRS stinks. Thanks Frank

[The Double D]

Frank...I just retired and can't remember what CRS is.... :)

[Cactus Farmer]

Can't Remember Squat (or any other word that starts with s and fits)

[johniv]

Gentlemen, thanks for all of the help, I got the breechblock out and cleaned & lubed everything. The old gun shoots a great group (considering the skimpy sights and my old eyes, and the incredably heavy trigger pull.) Shoots into about 2.25 inches at 50 yd with 4.2 gr unique and a lyman #358480 boolit beagled out to about .364" in .38 long colt cases. I am very pleased with how everything hase worked with this rifle. Thanks again for all your help.
John