My .44s from .40 S&W

[SquirrelHollow]

Some of you may recognize this post from another forum.

I figured I'd share here, since this is where the brain trust is, and has been a big motivator in casting and swaging my own bullets. This is essentially a re-post, with more information added here.

.44 Mag from .40 S&W, with a 7x57mm sizing die, Lee .430" sizing die (and the all-important punch), and Rotometals lead wire. This started as a proof-of-concept, but will continue evolving. (It really makes me want a die with a proper ogive and nose profile.)

I have a Lee 401-175-TC mold coming, to cast my cores in the future (I only bought 3 ft of lead wire). I am also in the process of modifying the original seating stem, so it can be used as a hollow-pointing pin.

For the majority of bullets, I used trimmed jackets (don't remember the length, off hand) that weighed in at about 72 grains, with cut cores of about 203 grains - whatever was necessary to make up the difference for a total of 275 gr. Other combinations were experimented with for 240, 225, 205, and 185 grains. Anything 205 grains or less doesn't fill out properly in my die (punch is too short), and won't be pursued in the future (unless I grind down the die).

The .40 S&W cases were flared with a Lyman 'M' die, so the Lee punch would enter the mouth without issue.

Cores were seated by putting the jacket (.40 S&W) into the die base-first, and swaging with the Lee punch. Then, the nose was formed by turning it around and swaging again (adjusting the die as needed). Finally, they were pushed through a Lee .430" sizing die (for a finished size of .4315").

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41069&stc=1&d=1329625124
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41067&stc=1&d=1329624932
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41068&stc=1&d=1329624932
I've already tested these bullets, and will have another post up in just a few minutes.

[SquirrelHollow]

I am very impressed with how tough this bullet is, and how well they hold together.

If you're still in kindergarten, just look at the pictures. You won't hurt my feelings, by skipping the text. ...I probably would, too. This is going to be a long thread.

To break up the monotony a bit, I'll be using bold letters to set some words off.

We fired 10 bullets of 3 different weights from a Ruger Super Blackhawk and a S&W 29 (both in .44 Mag, of course), at about 950 fps (estimated).
The only factory ammo we remembered to take with us for comparison was some Remington 240 grain Hollow Points at 1180 fps. Since we forgot to fire any other revolver rounds into the wet pack, it wasn't quite as useful as we had hoped. {slap forehead}

We also fired 20 of the 275 grain bullets from an H&R Handi-Rifle in .444 Marlin, from 1900 to 2400 fps (estimated). The ammunition chosen for comparison was Hornady Superformance 265 gr FP Interlocks, at 2400 fps.

There were 3 different types of bullets tested:
1. Plain - The case is not annealed, and the core is not bonded.
2. Annealed - The cases is annealed before the core is seated.
3. Bonded - The cores were bonded to the jackets.

There were 3 different weights tested:
1. 275 grain - This was the only weight tested in the .444, and only 2 bullets of this weight were tested in the .44 Mags.
2. 225 grain - This was the primary weight for the revolvers. None of these were tested in the .444.
3. 185 grain - This was a developmental failure at the bench (equipment limitation), only two were fired, only in the .44 Mags... for the heck of it.

Most of the bullets were fired into a crappy cooler that was packed as tight as I could get it, with wet phone books, magazines, catalogs, and newspaper. A few bullets were fired into targets of opportunity. That will be pointed out, as needed.

To "calibrate" my test media, I fired a .177" BB at 625 fps. It penetrated 1/8". At that velocity, standard ballistic gel penetration is just over 3". :shock:
A Remington .22 LR Golden Bullet from a 22" bbl penetrated only 5/8". (:shock: again.) That stuff was packed tight.

As much paper as possible was removed from the bullets before being weighed.

http://crankylove.net/other/Swage44_1_1_labeled.jpg

Look at those mushrooms on top! They're better than most commercial bullets I've recovered.

The key to the photograph:

275 gr Bonded, .444 Marlin, est. muzzle velocity of 2225 fps, expanded to 0.931", cleaned weight of 177 gr. Penetrated 8.5".
275 gr Bonded, .444 Marlin, est. muzzle velocity of 2300 fps, expanded to 0.704", cleaned weight of 184 gr. Penetrated 9".
275 gr Bonded, .444 Marlin, est. muzzle velocity of 2360 fps, expanded to 0.741", cleaned weight of 178 gr. Penetrated 10".
275 gr Bonded, .444 Marlin, est. muzzle velocity of 2400 fps, expanded to 0.931", cleaned weight of 140 gr. Penetrated 10".
275 gr Plain, .444 Marlin, est. muzzle velocity of 2000 fps, expanded to 0.990", cleaned weight of 244 gr. Penetrated 9". (This bullet carried the piece of plastic more than 7" through the wet-pack, before it ripped off; and was also the first bullet tested. It was fully expanded by passing though a gallon jug {6"} of water, before hitting the cooler.)
265 gr Hornady Interlock FP, .444 Marlin, factory advertised muzzle velocity of 2400 fps, expanded to 1.053", cleaned weight of 207 gr. Penetrated 7".
240 gr Remington Hollow Point, .44 Rem Mag, factory advertised muzzle velocity of 1180 fps, expanded to 0.998" (core), cleaned weight of 235 gr. Penetrated N/A. (This bullet penetrated about 2" of the wet-pack before veering wildly off course, exiting the interior of the bottom of the cooler, and travelling through about 14" of styrofoam insulation, then coming to a stop. However... in that 2" of wet-pack, it managed to lose its jacket {which expanded to .735", and weighed 38 gr}. Altogether the best recovered weight of the bullets that expanded, but pretty sub-par performance, even for a revolver.)
275 gr Bonded, .444 Marlin, est. muzzle velocity of 2000 fps, expanded to 0.806", cleaned weight of 161 gr. Penetrated 24+". (This bullet penetrated a weak part of a cast iron cylinder head, went through 14+ inches of a wet juniper stump, and plowed another 12" inches of dirt. One tough SOB...)
275 gr Bonded, .444 Marlin, est. muzzle velocity of 2000 fps, expanded to a doughnut, cleaned weight of 34 gr. Penetrated 0". (This bullet hit a very thick portion of the cylinder head. But it has survived pummeling by some really heavy hitters, so I don't blame the bullet, at all. The results are interesting to look at. So, I included it here.)
225 gr Plain, .44 Rem Mag, est. muzzle velocity of 950 fps, expanded to 0.554", cleaned weight of 211 gr. Penetrated about 6". (Fired into sloppy mud with gravel and sand.)
225 gr Annealed, .44 Rem Mag, est. muzzle velocity of 950 fps, expanded to 0.430", cleaned weight of 225 gr. Penetrated about 5". (Fired into wet pack.)
185 gr Plain, .44 Rem Mag, est. muzzle velocity of 950 fps, expanded to 0.434", cleaned weight of 183 gr. Penetrated about 6". (Fired into clay.)
225 gr Plain, .44 Rem Mag, est. muzzle velocity of 950 fps, expanded to 0.464", cleaned weight of 221 gr. Penetrated about 6". (Fired into sloppy mud with gravel and sand.)


There were also several 275 gr Bonded, Plain, and Annealed bullets fired into mud and dirt with the .444 Marlin, that could not be recovered. They simply penetrated too deeply to be dug out. :D

http://crankylove.net/other/Swage44_2_1.JPG

http://crankylove.net/other/Swage44_3_1.JPG

http://crankylove.net/other/Swage44_4_1.JPG


Close-ups of the 4 bonded bullets fired at the highest muzzle velocities:
http://crankylove.net/other/Swage44_5_1.JPG
Note the missing primer. It blew it out, backwards, when the bullet impacted the wet-pack.

http://crankylove.net/other/Swage44_6_1.JPG

And, the doughnut from "I":
http://crankylove.net/other/Swage44_7.jpg


I like 'em!
I paid $5 for the set of 7x57mm dies, and $18 for the Lee sizing die. Can't beat the price...

[Bambeno]

Very nice results with minimal swaging equiptment!

[Lizard333]

Have you tested these for accuracy? How well do they shoot?

[alleyoop]

can you post more detail sounds like something to try as a first attempt at this sort of thing

[BT Sniper]

Love the recovered bullet pics! "B" I think it was looks awesome and would make a heck of a hole in what ever it hits. Was the cores pure soft lead? You'll have fun experimenting with the lee mold. Try some wheel weight alloy cores and shoot that engine block again :) If you wanted to have even more fun after you size your bullets read up on heat treating wheel weight alloy. Maybe you can get that core even harder after the bullet is formed for even more penitration even though from the looks of it I don't think that is a problem!

Good shooting and Swage On!

BT


p.s. makes good use of the 40S&W brass doesn't it!

[Lefty SRH]

Yes, I'm curious about the accuracy! I have PLENTY of .40S&W cases, already load .44mag, have 7x57 dies, a 175 .40cal mold and lots of pure lead.....

[BT Sniper]

It would be interesting to shoot that bullet backwards at the engine block or test penitration in the phone books. Just be carfull if you do to watch out for contact with the lands with the loaded round. I haven't shot any backwards but I bet it would be impressive.

With your technique and care you could slightly size down the base of those bullets in the die.... Somthing to think about?

BT

[SquirrelHollow]

So far, accuracy hasn't been officially tested. (I was more interested in terminal performance, initially.) I don't have enough lead wire left to make a full batch for testing. So, I have to wait on the 401-175-TC mold to arrive. Once the mold shows up, I'll crank out 150-200, sort by appearance and weight, and test for accuracy.

Alleyoop, what more did you want to know? Feel free to ask.

BT- The cores were primarily Rotometals 99.9% pure 3/8" lead wire, cut with linesman's pliers. There were a few of the 225 gr bullets that had 10-30 grains of #9 shot, though. Once I get off the computer today, I'll be pouring 63 lb of Linotype into ingots; then mixing an alloy close to WW+2% Tin. I plan on trying some of that with bonded bullets. I really don't think the extra hardness will be necessary, though. And, it really isn't necessary at pistol velocities.

Yea, 'B' was a good one. I was a little surprised by the results. The higher the impact velocity, the more predictably the bullets expanded. 'A' through 'D' did very well. 'E' did incredibly well, but seemed to be a fluke.


The following image shows the maximum amount I can reshape the base of the cases, before lead starts squirting around my punch; and this is with annealed cases. The plain cases don't do much, at all.
It doesn't look like it here, but the rim comes in at about .420".
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41099&stc=1&d=1329684289

[BT Sniper]

I bet those would penitrate! Probably break that engine block too! Looks just right.

Good shooting

BT

[alleyoop]

I've only been casting since Christmas and so far only 38swc from a four hole saeco. total dark about this process can you run a quick step by step ? what' the 7mm die for ? I have 7x57 dies and shoot 44 and 45 colt. So clueless I don't even know if the 45 colt is a canadate for this. don't be too hard on the spelling and grammer not sleep last 36 found out my 16yo is smoking weed at her mom's now . thanks

[GRUMPA]

Swaging is a bit more involved than reloading, here's a link for the 45's http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=132183

[a.squibload]

They look good, and good writeup on the testing.

Am I missing something?
What keeps the boolit from squishing through the 7x57 die?
Just doesn't seem like it would fill out / expand if it has a hole to squeeze through,
what keeps it pressurized?

[SquirrelHollow]

Am I missing something?
What keeps the boolit from squishing through the 7x57 die?
Just doesn't seem like it would fill out / expand if it has a hole to squeeze through,
what keeps it pressurized?
Nothing is stopping it, but the lead itself offers enough resistance for swaging.
If I adjust the die down far enough, it will create bottlenecked bullets.
Here's an example, from when I was first experimenting with the 7x57mm die: (one with a wrinkled neck, from lack of internal support; and one bottleneck, from adjusting the die too far)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41124&stc=1&d=1329723640
(Note how the bottlenecked bullet was swaged to full diameter - about .434" - but the bullet on the left was not. The bullet on the left had internal voids that caused problems (that's what happens when you fill the case with bird shot). The bullet on the right, however, was sized to .4315" and fired into gooey mud during initial testing. Sadly, it was not recovered.)

The reason it doesn't create the bottleneck on everything, is because I carefully adjust the die so neither the case, nor the lead core, will extrude into the 'neck' of the sizing die. I swage just to the point that the brass or lead is about to lose contact with the 'shoulder' inside the die. (Depending on whether I want a protected-point, or soft point.) Whether it's lead or brass contacting the 'shoulder' first, doesn't matter. It's the final position of the bullet, during the swaging operation, that matters. Pushing it too far will cause a bottleneck.

It stays "pressurized" simply due to the resistance offered by the shoulder of the die, and the lead being comprised of a single core (rather than multiple pieces). It is metal, after all, and puts up a fight when you try to force a .404" lead slug through a .295" hole. (Or a .429" brass jacket through a .324" hole.)

Obviously, this set of tools means the product is pretty limited in applications (one nose profile, with a limited weight range), but it does work.

Alleyoop and a.squibload, I'll try to get a full explanation posted tomorrow.
The problem is that I'm long-winded. I have to fight myself to keep things short, and to the point. So, it can take a while to get things like this in writing. :roll:

[GRUMPA]

The problem is that I'm long-winded. I have to fight myself to keep things short, and to the point.

Somewhere...........Somehow..................Your related to my wife.

[a.squibload]

My poor wife has to talk through her nose,
she done wore out her jaw!
(Hee-Haw, '70s)

S.H., thanks for the pics.
That boolit on the right is just what I imagined, a long skinny nose
from the boolit trying to escape through the die.

Pretty cool that it works, I might try my 44 swage die without the HP pin.
Maybe start the adjustment where it just makes a bevel, and go from there.
Try to make a TC flat nose, why not?

Oh yeah, what do you use to eject the boolit from the die?

[SquirrelHollow]

Oh yeah, what do you use to eject the boolit from the die?
I bought some #9 polished O-1 drill rod for a .22 de-rimming die, and had a few pieces left over. Right now, I'm using a 2.5" section of that drill rod to knock the bullets out. It leaves a dimple in the nose, but that's about it.

[SquirrelHollow]

I haven't forgotten about this thread. I've just been busy with other things. I still plan on getting a detailed write-up posted here. If I can't do that, I'll try to put a video together.

[SquirrelHollow]

In response to some questions from Sakdog and Lloyd Smale in Sakdog's thread, I have some more information to post here:


(From the Marlinowners' thread, post #5 (http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloading/85261-frankenmausers-40-s-w-444-reloads.html).)

The basic process:
1. Clean the range pick-up .40 S&W brass.

2. Trim the cases to length (.810" for 275 gr bullets and .700" for 250s).

3. Expand the case mouth to .44 caliber (Lyman M die).

4. Match a lead core (lead wire or cast lead bullet - .40 or .41 cal) to the jacket, to achieve the desired weight.
4.a. If bonding, the inside of the case is fluxed, the core placed back inside, then the assembly heated (propane turkey fryer burner). When the lead has melted, the flux stops boiling, and carbon stops bubbling up out of the primer, it is allowed to cool. If it "sinks" in the middle, it is bonded. If not, you've got some rejects. They look terrible, but work well.

5. Seat the core in the jacket by running the inverted assembly into a 7x57mm sizing die, on top of a Lee "pusher" (bottom punch) from a .430" push-through sizing die. This bevels the rim (side effect of the process), and "bumps up" the body diameter to about .434" by sealing the punch against the case body and expanding the lead core. Experimentation will give you an idea of whether or not you need to lube the jacket/case for the core-seating step. (My die is chrome-plated inside, and doesn't really need lube.)

6. Turn the bullet over, and run it into the 7x57mm sizing die to form the nose.

7. Lastly, lube the bullets and run them through a sizing die.

Notes:
The primers are untouched, and left in the cases.
Tarnish doesn't matter.
I use pure lead for the cores. The cast lead bullets are from Lee molds, 401-175-TC and 410-195-SWC. (In pure lead, they drop heavy.)
The bullets are ejected from the sizing die with a section of O-1 drill rod. Initially, I was using a letter-size rod that was about .186". But, I recently went to some N-size, that mics .297". It fits much better, and produces much better looking bullet noses.
I use a Lee .430" bullet sizing die, so the bullet's spring-back gives me a finished product at .4315" to fit my .432" bore better than factory bullets.

(I finally got my hands on a .432" sizing die, a couple months back {but after that was initially posted}. It may be used for these bullets in the future.)

[SquirrelHollow]

I think that answers all of the current questions.
But, as always... feel free to ask.

[grullaguy]

Great write up!

I had to give it a try. What I had on hand were some .390" round ball, a set of 30-06 dies and a .431 sizing die.

My results look very similar to yours in the two bullets I made, but I know I have some voids in the untrimmed jackets. The lead is near the same point in the nose as yours, while the finshed bullets only weigh 249 grains.

I think next I will trim to cases to .700" and then heat the cases with the two squished round balls in each, in my melting pot. That should bond the cores and get rid of voids.

I am wondering if I should get another sizing die in .429" as these bullets will be fired in a variety of guns and brass is not nearly as ductile as lead. I would hate someone, (maybe me) to blow up a gun.

Cheers,

[SquirrelHollow]

0.002" won't cause a problem, or a dramatic increase in pressure. (You probably wouldn't even notice any change.) But, the basic reloading rule can negate any risk: Start low, and work up.

However... if you have large voids, there's no way of predicting how they're react.

[RGMJ]

Hi SH,

This method of yours is certainly a great idea. Been wanting to swage for my 44 mag but the steep prices of swage dies pushed me away. I reckon you method would not cost me over $100 to start swaging 44 bullets.

I have some clarifications :

1. Is your 7 x 57 die Lee brand or some other brand? Will any brand work?

2. Have you tried similar method to form .357 bullets for 357 magnum? If yes, how is it done? What tools are required?

Thanks in advance for your reply!!

[Lloyd Smale]

that explains my problem with them being to small. I was just taking a punch and hammer and seating the bullet in the case with it.
In response to some questions from Sakdog and Lloyd Smale in Sakdog's thread, I have some more information to post here:


(From the Marlinowners' thread, post #5 (http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloading/85261-frankenmausers-40-s-w-444-reloads.html).)

The basic process:
1. Clean the range pick-up .40 S&W brass.

2. Trim the cases to length (.810" for 275 gr bullets and .700" for 250s).

3. Expand the case mouth to .44 caliber (Lyman M die).

4. Match a lead core (lead wire or cast lead bullet - .40 or .41 cal) to the jacket, to achieve the desired weight.
4.a. If bonding, the inside of the case is fluxed, the core placed back inside, then the assembly heated (propane turkey fryer burner). When the lead has melted, the flux stops boiling, and carbon stops bubbling up out of the primer, it is allowed to cool. If it "sinks" in the middle, it is bonded. If not, you've got some rejects. They look terrible, but work well.

5. Seat the core in the jacket by running the inverted assembly into a 7x57mm sizing die, on top of a Lee "pusher" (bottom punch) from a .430" push-through sizing die. This bevels the rim (side effect of the process), and "bumps up" the body diameter to about .434" by sealing the punch against the case body and expanding the lead core. Experimentation will give you an idea of whether or not you need to lube the jacket/case for the core-seating step. (My die is chrome-plated inside, and doesn't really need lube.)

6. Turn the bullet over, and run it into the 7x57mm sizing die to form the nose.

7. Lastly, lube the bullets and run them through a sizing die.

Notes:
The primers are untouched, and left in the cases.
Tarnish doesn't matter.
I use pure lead for the cores. The cast lead bullets are from Lee molds, 401-175-TC and 410-195-SWC. (In pure lead, they drop heavy.)
The bullets are ejected from the sizing die with a section of O-1 drill rod. Initially, I was using a letter-size rod that was about .186". But, I recently went to some N-size, that mics .297". It fits much better, and produces much better looking bullet noses.
I use a Lee .430" bullet sizing die, so the bullet's spring-back gives me a finished product at .4315" to fit my .432" bore better than factory bullets.

(I finally got my hands on a .432" sizing die, a couple months back {but after that was initially posted}. It may be used for these bullets in the future.)

[SquirrelHollow]

Sorry about not getting back to you sooner.

RGMJ - My 7x57 die is a Bair Cub die. (Made by the company that produced Hornady's "Pacific" dies in the '60s, and then went their own way with the same design ...but chrome plated.)
I was looking for any die that would work for this operation, on a local classifieds site, and found the Bair dies for sale for $15. I talked the guy down to $5 (and some advice on a wildcat load), and we had a deal.

Drawing larger cases down to 35 caliber takes a lot of leverage, due to the thickness of the web and the resistance offered by the rims. Most reloading presses can't handle it in their stock form.


Lloyd - Sorry, if I didn't point that out directly. Yea, the problem was not applying enough continuous pressure to the core, to expand it all the way.

[SquirrelHollow]

RGMJ, here's a list of sizing dies that should be suitable for 44 caliber (.429, nominal). The last statement is important, if you're using a Lee bottom punch along with the die.

Original post: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1886197&postcount=12

7x57 isn't the only thing that will work.
Other options include pretty much anything from the Mauser-based family of cartridges, and a few newer players: (with nominal shoulder diameter)
5.6x57mm RWS (.431)
22 PPC (.431)
6mm PPC (.431)
22-6mm (.429)
6mm Remington (.429)
.240 Weatherby (.432 - die needs to be cut down, if using a Lee bottom punch)
.257 Roberts (.429)
6.5x52mm Carcano (.431)
6.5x54mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer (.428)
6.5x55mm Swedish (.435)
7.65x53mm Belgian Mauser (.429)
7.7x58mm Japanese (.429)
8x57mm Mauser (.431)

In my experience, anything with the shoulder more than 0.150" farther forward than 7x57/8x57 Mauser will need the die to be cut down, or a longer bottom punch will be needed.

[RGMJ]

Hi SH,

Thanks man for the information on dies to form the nose. I'll be going to the 8 x 57mm Mauser route and will order the die from Lee. :)

I guess I'll be swaging bullets pretty soon. I just cast 200 lead bullets 401-175-TC with a Lee 6 cav mold.

I also noted you did not put cannelures in your bullets, won't these move with the recoil of the 44?

Anyway thanks again!! :bigsmyl2:

[SquirrelHollow]

I've never had one move in .44 Mag (Super Blackhawk), nor has one of my brothers that is shooting them (S&W 29). But... I have been sizing these to 0.4315" diameter, or larger. So, there's a little more neck tension than with your standard .429 jacketed bullet.


If I was really concerned about it, I would consider using a Lee Factory Crimp Die to crush a groove into the bullets. But, so far... it hasn't been an issue.


Good luck with your endeavor. ;)