Converting Berdan primer pockets to Boxer [Archive]

Larry Gibson

02-16-2012, 10:10 PM

I'm going to post this in several posts to get the pictures in the right place.

Converting LR Berdan primer pockets in brass milsurp cartridges to SR Boxer primer pockets

Over the years I’ve thrown away I don’t know how many thousands of very good brass cases of 7.62x54R, 8x57, 7.65 Argentine and ,303 British simply because they had Berdan primers. On a recent long 7.62x54R thread I’d mentioned doing this conversion of the Berdan primer pockets to take SR Boxer primers and several were interested. Thought I’d just do a new thread here to explain the conversion process to keep it from getting lost in the other thread.

While Berdan primed cases are reloadable with proper tools and IF you have and/or can get Berdan primers they were a pain to even try, at least the ones I tried over the years were. Some time back a poster (don’t recall his name but I would like to give him credit....that poster was located; it was Relics6165...while I went a different route to get there the basic concept of using the sides of the Berdan primer as a "sleeve: were his and it was that post that eventually got me to thinking about "how".) gave some rudimentary ideas on how it might be possible to convert the LR Berdan primer pockets to take/use SR boxer primers. I finally got around to giving it some more thought and attempted it. So far I have met with success having converted some 7.62x54R cases and having reloaded and fired them twice. I have also converted several test cases of 8x57 and 7.65 Argentine with equal success.

The tools needed are rudimentary and most advanced loaders should already have them or have them available. What is needed are (illustrated);

Bench mounted vise
Sharp center punch and mallet
Hand drill (I used a DeWalt cordless drill just to make sure it could be done. A vertical drill press with a milling table and machinist vise on it makes it a lot easier. It also reduced the “oh-ohs” significantly.)
A sharp #18 drill bit
A #43, 44 or 45 drill bit
A SR primer pocket swager. I used the Dillon but the RCBS should work as well.

Note; There are basically two sizes of Berdan primers as there are two sizes of Boxer primers (talking diameters here). I've found both sizes of Berdan primers used in the same cartridge; i.e. my Bulgarian 7.62x54R use the larger Berdan primer so for LR Boxer primers in those I use the #8 drill. The Albanian 7.62x54R cases use the smaller Berdan primer so for the SR Boxer primer I use the #18 drill.

Larry Gibson

02-16-2012, 10:36 PM

What we are going to do is drill a new central flash hole which also removes the Berdan integral anvil. Then we are going to remove the base of the Berdan primer leaving the side of the Berdan primer in the primer pocket. Lastly we will swage the remains of the Berdan primer in the primer pocket to take a SR boxer size primer. Sounds simple enough and it is but we’ve got to be careful because it is real easy to mess it up.

Process; let’s start with the cases, they should have been fired with the service level load. This swages the sides of the Berdan primer to fit the primer pocket tightly. I tried some cases with the bullet and powder pulled and the primer just fired. This did not work as the Berdan primer always came out of the primer pocket. It needs to be fire formed by the psi of the full service load. However, cases that have a crimped in primer might work without having been fired with service level loads if the bullet/powder are pulled and the primers are just fired in the rifle. Obviously, do not attempt to drill or center punch on a live primer. Also don't forget to clean the probably corrosive primer residue out of the barrel after firing the primed only cases.

With the cases ready for alteration 1st we must drill out a new central flash hole. This also removes the Berdan anvil that is integral with the case primer pocket and not part of the primer itself. Drilling the central flash hole also gives a centering hole to guide the #18 drill in removing the base of the Berdan primer. If the firing pin indentation is centered in the primer then that can be used to center the #43 - #45 (I used a #45) drill for the central flash hole. If the primer indentation is not centered in the primer (as illustrated) then put the case in the vise (as illustrated in the 1st post) and use the center punch and mallet to “center up” the indentation in the primer. It’s not hard to do. I insert the #45 drill as far as possible into the chuck to keep it as stiff as possible for drilling the central flash hole. With the case held in the vise center the drill with the drill tip in the centered primer indentation and hold the drill vertical. Drill the flash hole completely through the primer and anvil as illustrated.

Larry Gibson

02-16-2012, 10:37 PM

The #18 drill bit is then used to drill the bottom of the Berdam primer off. With a drill press the stop can be adjusted so you don’t go too far. It is easy to mess up here and drill completely through so go easy if using a hand drill as if drilled through it ruins the case. The "oh oh" illustration shows 2 cases; one is an attempt to drill the primer base off 1st without drilling the central flash hole for the #18 drill to follow.….it didn’t work as the drill will wander off the side of the anvil. The second case is where the drill got away from me and I drilled through the case ruining the case. Just be careful if using the hand drill. It is easiest to drill all the central flash holes first in one step and then drill off the bottom of the Berdan Primers of the cases in a second step. That way, doing one step at a time, you quickly develop a “feel” for each step and don't mess up so easy.

Larry Gibson

02-16-2012, 10:41 PM

The last step is to swage the primer pocket for the SR Boxer primer to fit. I ran the cases over the Dillon small primer swager 2-3 times and Remington 7 1/2 primers were a good fit seating them with a Lee priming tool (bottom illustration shows the completed reformed primer pocket).

The top illustration shows 5 cases of the various steps; fired case with uncentered firing pin indentation, case with indentation centered with punch, case with center flash hole drilled with #45 drill, case with the bottom of the Berdan primer drilled off with #18 drill and the finished case with the primer pocket swaged.

Larry Gibson

02-16-2012, 10:42 PM

So the obvious question; does it work? To answer that I loaded the 19 cases I was successful in converting of the Albainian. These cases had been fired in my Finn M39. I used a .337 bushing in the converted .284 Win Redding bushing die to NS the cases. They were primed with Rem 7 ½ primers ans loaded with 30 gr 4895 (milsurp) and a ¾ gr dacron filler added. On top of that I seated 176 gr GB C316291s cast of WW + 2% tin with a BHN of 16. These had been sized at .314 and lubed with Javelina. The GCs were my own made from .014 aluminum. Made a quick trip to the range today and just shot the 19 rounds off sand bags at 100 yards. Well, I did hold the 1st shot out at arms length and just shot the berm….better safe than sorry. All was well, very well in fact so I settled down on the bench. Set the rear sight on 500m and you can see the 1st shot at 1130 just outside the black. Moved the sight down 3 notches (5 notches between 400m & 500m) and fired 3 shots, the low ones at 7:30 in the 9 ring. Moved the sight back up 2 notches and fired 3 shots which went in at 11:00 in the 9 and 10 ring. Moved back down 1 notche and moved the front sight left 1 “dot”. I then fired the remaining 11 shots getting 4 tens and 7 Xs……about the best my old eyes can do anymore with open service sights.

I deprimed the cases at home and all the SR primers came out as expected. None of the Berdan rings in the primer pockets came out. I reloaded all the cases again and will continue firing to see how long they last……so far….so good

Larry Gibson

Addendum; 5 Feb 2012

Dug through my "stash" and found 120 rounds of Bulgarian 7.62x54R 55-10 with very nice brass cases, They had the larger Berdan size primer. I shot 20 rounds of it today and tonight I converted the Berdan Primer pockets to take Large Rifle Boxer primers. Procedure was identical except a #8 drill was used in lieu of the #18 and the LR primer pocket swage was used. It was quite easy this time and I didn't lose a single case. Bottom photo shows the prgression of conversion and then the loaded box of 20. I will hopefully test fire tomorrow to see if the bushings stay when the boxer LR is punched out.

-06

02-16-2012, 10:49 PM

Will be dragging out all that 54R brass I have been working around for years and try it out. Thanks for the details/pics.

plmitch

02-17-2012, 02:12 AM

Good stuff here, thanks for sharing

SciFiJim

02-17-2012, 03:21 AM

Hang Fire

02-17-2012, 03:34 AM

Good post Larry and thanks for sharing the information. Think I have some 7.62x54 brassed case Yugo to give this a try on.

stubshaft

02-17-2012, 03:53 AM

Good post Larry. I gave up on berdan cases years ago. I used to be able to buy them from Old West Scrounger but supplies were iffy. Now I have nothing to lose by trying your procedure out.

Dschuttig

02-17-2012, 07:05 AM

You guys do know that ,217 full power berdan primers are available, right? But still good info for when they dry up again.

Larry Gibson

02-17-2012, 10:58 AM

OK, I am looking for a solution. You said that they needed to be first fired with a service level load. I have about 300 8mm brass that were pulled down with the primers still unfired. What would be a service level load that I could use to fire form them? The slowest powder I currently have is 2400. I traded into a 15lb keg of it.

46-48 gr 4895 under a 150 gr jacketed bullet would be a service level load. Or you could use any medium level jacketed bullet load for the correct weight jacketed bullet. The psi needs to be in the 45,000 psi range to really expand the primer well.

Suggest you fire a couple cases in the rifle with just the primer (no powder or bullet) and try converting them especially if the primers are crimped in place. It may work that way, if not then you need to fire them. The primers are probably corrosive so don't forget to clean the primer residue out of the bore.

Larry

Larry Gibson

02-17-2012, 11:02 AM

You guys do know that ,217 full power berdan primers are available, right? But still good info for when they dry up again.

Yup, been there, done that and found it a pain. Decapping is slow and tedious and the sizing die decapping pin has to be removed for the Berdan primed cases. Once the cases are altered to Boxer primers they are like regular cases in reloading.....mostly just what we are used to doing.

Larry Gibson

Reload3006

02-17-2012, 11:04 AM

I have done this too .... Great Job.. this should be a sticky

Rangefinder

02-17-2012, 11:13 AM

I have done this too .... Great Job.. this should be a sticky
Agreed--messaging a mod now.

legend

02-17-2012, 09:25 PM

Nice ! Thanks for shareing.

45nut

02-17-2012, 11:50 PM

copied to the Classics and Stickies area!

slim1836

02-18-2012, 10:55 AM

Thanks Larry for the time and effort put into the posting of the conversion. I am sure many friends of this community share the same thoughts.

It is great that so many on this site share their knowledge so that the less experienced can learn from them.

Slim

omgb

02-18-2012, 12:51 PM

I hace 800 rounds of old Turkish 8mm from 1952. All Berdan of course. The key is firing under a service load. On a warm day, 80% of it goes bang. Drop the temp below 75 degrees and it's 50/50.

Assuming I can get most of it to fire, I've got a huge jug of 5744 and a huge (8lb) jug of IMR 4895. Which do you guys think would make a better CB load?

Rangefinder

02-19-2012, 11:31 AM

I'm not overly familiar with 5744, but I do know IMR 4895 runs several of my mil-surp rifles very well on a diet of cast boolits. That has my vote.

On a side note, I can't help throwing my $0.02 in. There is such a vast wealth of knowledge here at CB that it really does amaze me sometimes--often, actually. In my neck of the woods I'm considered one of the few experts (not a title I willingly raise my hand for--there just isn't a large pool of reloaders that know a thing beyond wives tales, so I "appear" to be one of the bright ones :D ). Then I come browse through all the stuff you guys are doing and playing with and am always fascinated by the things I find. It sure does put into perspective how far and wide our obsession with 'things that go bang' can run. Good-Lord, I love this place... :D

NEVADABACKROADER

02-19-2012, 01:11 PM

Have you tried filling the berdan primed cases with water and using a dowel that just fits the case neck? You hit the dowel with a mallet and use the water pressue to deprime the case.

Rangefinder

02-19-2012, 03:41 PM

^^^ YES, but the point is not to remove the entire berdan primer, but use it as a bushing to convert the case to use box primers. ;)

richhodg66

02-20-2012, 09:39 PM

I have a decent lot of brass Berdan cases for the 7.62x54 I was planning to drill out and use 209 shotgun primers, but now I'm going to do this when I get around to it.

I never would have thought of this! Do these present any problems with full power loads, i.e., does that swaged in part ever want to back out? Also, will a small rifle primer ignite a fully charged case uniformly? If not, I can always set these aside for reducxed loads and save my boxer primed stuff. I have a drill press and an RCBS primer pocket swager, just gotta get the time now.

nanuk

02-21-2012, 08:53 PM

...
On a side note, I can't help throwing my $0.02 in. There is such a vast wealth of knowledge here at CB that it really does amaze me sometimes--often, actually. In my neck of the woods I'm considered one of the few experts (not a title I willingly raise my hand for--there just isn't a large pool of reloaders that know a thing beyond wives tales, so I "appear" to be one of the bright ones :D ). Then I come browse through all the stuff you guys are doing and playing with and am always fascinated by the things I find. It sure does put into perspective how far and wide our obsession with 'things that go bang' can run. Good-Lord, I love this place... :D

RF: I agree 100%
I am humbled also that the members here (well, except for one, perhaps two) who freely share their knowledge with the rest of us.

And the TALENT??? I have followed threads where, with simple hand tools, and some minor power tools, members have created some pretty cool stuff.

and the INGENUITY!

all I can say is Wow! and THANK YOU!

I'll get off my box now

JIMinPHX

02-22-2012, 12:50 AM

I fooled with this sort of thing a while back. Some of what I tried worked & some of it didn't. My results were OK, but my methods required a machine shop. Larry's method is a good example of doing more with less.

The details of my exploits along with useful replies from Buckshot & others can be found here - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=50789

With the exception of the one press ring that was too loose, I was able to get several firings out of all the brass that I converted. They are still in use today. They have see only low level powder charges though.

One thing to remember with Berdan primers is that they are not uniform in size like Boxers. With Boxers, they are either large or small & that's all there is. With Berdans, there are many subtle variations in size depending on what shells you have.

Larry Gibson

02-22-2012, 11:32 AM

richhodg66

I have a decent lot of brass Berdan cases for the 7.62x54 I was planning to drill out and use 209 shotgun primers, but now I'm going to do this when I get around to it.

I never would have thought of this! Do these present any problems with full power loads, i.e., does that swaged in part ever want to back out?

Don't know yet, so far they have worked fine w/o the bushing backing out when used with 2 firings of my normal heavy cast bullet load. I will fire one more cast bullet load and then test with a full service load with 4895 under a J bullet.

Also, will a small rifle primer ignite a fully charged case uniformly?

I guess we'll find out. Shouldn't be a problem, especally with SRM primers with normal powders like 4895 but might not be enough with s slower burning powder, especially a ball powder.

Larry Gibson

Reload3006

02-22-2012, 11:44 AM

I have a case of olympia 7.62x54r Greece manufactured. I have not done this with that yet. But I started looking for Ideas when I got that ammo because when I bought it I saw brass cased and figued Boxer primed ...Wrong. but no matter I have a bunch of 3006 cases that were berdan primed so I converted them. At first i just drilled out the berdan primer anvil after having the primer removed then swaged it to a flat bottom but as you know the hole was too large a diameter So I took a ball from a bering and peened down the top of the hole ran them up to full power 06 loads with out problem but was not that reliable. So then I had read somewhere that people were soldering a bushing in the primer pocket and that got me to thinking why not just drill out the primer and swage it to size. It worked and as the OP has shown works great. all the way up to full house 30-06 loads. I have had some of the berdan bushings come out when I de primed after full house loads but nothing while firing. Hope this helps. And yes when I have a chance I will be converting all my Olimpia brass 7.62x54r

lavenatti

02-22-2012, 11:51 AM

If the primer rings used as bushings (brilliant idea by the way) backed out -they could always be soldered in place before swaging the primer pocket. You'd want to be careful about the amount of heat used so the brass wasn't annealed but I think it could work.

I'm sure we all have a little lead and tin laying around we could use for solder.:)

JIMinPHX

02-22-2012, 03:45 PM

Have you tried filling the berdan primed cases with water and using a dowel that just fits the case neck? You hit the dowel with a mallet and use the water pressue to deprime the case.

See the link that I posted above

Larry Gibson

02-23-2012, 10:32 AM

Have you tried filling the berdan primed cases with water and using a dowel that just fits the case neck? You hit the dowel with a mallet and use the water pressue to deprime the case.

I've tried that on numerous ocasions in my far distant past. I succeeded in getting water all over me, my bench and everything else within reach. I got very few berdan primers out.

Larry Gibson

LowPE

02-23-2012, 11:05 AM

I have found that once you get the initial military primer out, using the rcbs can opener is very easy on subsequent primers with both cast boolit loads and full power jacketed loads.

Pulling the pin on a RCBS x-die is very easy and takes less than one minute.

Kudos to your effort and ingenuity. If my supply of berdan primers every goes away this seems to be a very viable method to reuse that brass.

Thank you for posting this very clear article.

1874Sharps

02-23-2012, 12:44 PM

20nickels

02-23-2012, 03:21 PM

Very cool idea and great execution of that idea! I would like to announce, however, that Graf & Son just started selling Wolf brand Berdan primers. It may be easier to buy some of these Berdan primers from Graf.
Not to drift but How do you prime using Berdans? Are they not larger and out of round?

Larry you never cease to amaze.

1874Sharps

02-24-2012, 02:33 AM

Gunto

02-24-2012, 11:39 AM

Looks great!
Glad to see that others are using 7.62x54.
I am using 7.62x53R.

ilcop22

02-24-2012, 04:27 PM

Very insightful and well documented, as always, Larry. This looks like a good idea for the berdan primed 30-06 cases I have. I can neck those down to 8x57, and with this method, easily identify the cases with no guess work. Thanks again.

brstevns

02-27-2012, 11:27 AM

Have you used full throttle loads doing this? Say in the 303 Brit and 308 win?

Larry Gibson

02-29-2012, 01:02 PM

Have you used full throttle loads doing this? Say in the 303 Brit and 308 win?

I have fired these same 19 cases 4 times now with the cast bullet load, no bushings have backed out. I did reswage 2 of the cases that looked odd but it really didn't change the "odd" look and they took the SR primer without problem. I have the cases loaded with my service "L" duplication load which is a 150 gr .311 bullet loaded over 48 gr milsurp 4895. We shall see how that works, I'll report back.

Larry Gibson

Larry Gibson

02-29-2012, 08:54 PM

Well I slipped off to the range to shoot those 19 rounds of service level loads. It was 39 degrees so I didn't bother with a target, just shot darks spots on the 200 yards berm. All went bang just fine and accuracy appeared normal. When I got home I deprimed them using a lee deprime die. The resistence was greater but all the SR primers popped out without a single bushing coming out:-)

Looks to me like they are good to go. I am cleaning the cases now and will continue to load the same cast bullet load and test fire. I will stop at 20 firings, case failure or loss of a significant number of the bushings and report back.....so far, so good:lovebooli

Larry Gibson

brstevns

02-29-2012, 10:04 PM

Thanks for the information I will have to give it a try.

sisiphunter

03-01-2012, 03:53 PM

Great post. Thanks for the very detailed step by step. Im gonna try this for sure.

sledgehammer001

03-02-2012, 07:34 PM

Hmmmmm, got coffee cans of berdan 7.62X54, 7.62X51. Gotta try this out. Thanks for posting this!

Twmaster

03-02-2012, 11:11 PM

Larry, Now that's some thinking. I love it. My procedure for converting berdan to boxer cases is loads more real work.

Bravo!

Larry Gibson

03-06-2012, 01:37 AM

Converted the larger Berdan to LR Boxer primer pockets. Go to post #4 for details.

Larry Gibson

turtlezx

03-06-2012, 01:55 AM

Twmaster

03-06-2012, 02:18 AM

Larry Gibson

03-06-2012, 12:41 PM

Hi Larry
I tried this but not having any luck
using a drill press and holding by hand the shell against the table.
Your tring to drill the anvil thats about the same size as the drill.
So before the anvil is drilled out the drill wanders off to the side??

turtle

That's why you drill the centered flash hole 1st with the #43 - 45 dill using the firing pin indentation (or a recentered one) as the place to drill. The primer face holds the drill in place. If that is what you are doing then you are not holding the case solid enough ( holding by hand the shell against the table). I suggest putting the case in a vise and drilling the flash hole with a hand drill. I did 20 last night using the vise and hand drill with no "wandering" problems.

Larry Gibson

Larry Gibson

03-06-2012, 12:46 PM

Turtle,

You need to use as short a drill bit as you can. Longer drill bits wander very easily.

What you may want to try is to drill out the #18 hole and cut some off the top of the anvil.

Otherwise once you've made sure the divot in the spent primer is as close to center as possible you'll want to take very light cuts with the drill bit for the flash hole.

Hope that's some help.

Drill the flash hole first before using the #18 to remove the base of the Berdan primer. Trust me, it works much better. The #43 - 45 drill takes off the tip of the anvil and makes a guide hole for the #18 to follow with the #18 then taking off the rest of the anvil. If not done that way the bit, even a short one, in a drill press with the case in a mill vise will wander off to the side.

Drill the flash hole first before using the #18 .....I can't reiterate that strong enough because if you don't you won't be happy with the results.

Larry Gibson

miestro_jerry

03-06-2012, 03:04 PM

This subject comes up everytime ammo gets scarce or just plain too expensive. It can be done, but I find that sometimes my time shooting is taken over by doing these conversions. For me it's nice to know, but I will pay the highers prices and I have never found brass and primers to be scarce, but I keep at least a scouple of years worth of supplies on hand.

But thanks for the info.

Jerry

uscra112

03-06-2012, 05:57 PM

Larry, how do you control the depth? I finally got some 7.5 Swiss cases converted (made my own primer swage, I was so enthused.) But SR primers seat way too deep in them. Maybe .020 - .030 below the face of the case. They still fire, but this can't do ignition consistency any good. Haven't fired any with powder in the case yet.

In a Boxer pocket, the tips of the anvil seat against the bottom of the hole at the edges. In the Berdan pocket, there's no metal there - the edge of the pocket is far too deep, at least in my Swiss brass.

What do you think of leaving some of the Berdan anvil in place for the Boxer anvil to rest upon? It would block up the central hole, but the old Berdan holes are still there. Using a small end mill with a sleeve around it to control the depth to which the Berdan anvil is cut away would do. Final seating the Boxer primer would be a delicate business, but it could be done. Not with the traditional seating punch, but with one that would bear on the face of the case, and thus seat the primer exactly flush.

More special tools to make ! Life is good !

Phil W.

turtlezx

03-06-2012, 06:38 PM

larry
you must be a master with the hand drill!!!
this is like trying to make hp into #6 bird shot !!!!!!!!!!!!

Larry Gibson

03-06-2012, 06:59 PM

uscra112

Larry, how do you control the depth?

With the hand drill it is by feel. With the drill press the cases are held in the same position so the drill press stop controls the depth.

I finally got some 7.5 Swiss cases converted (made my own primer swage, I was so enthused.) But SR primers seat way too deep in them. Maybe .020 - .030 below the face of the case. They still fire, but this can't do ignition consistency any good. Haven't fired any with powder in the case yet.

In a Boxer pocket, the tips of the anvil seat against the bottom of the hole at the edges. In the Berdan pocket, there's no metal there - the edge of the pocket is far too deep, at least in my Swiss brass.

What do you think of leaving some of the Berdan anvil in place for the Boxer anvil to rest upon? It would block up the central hole, but the old Berdan holes are still there. Using a small end mill with a sleeve around it to control the depth to which the Berdan anvil is cut away would do. Final seating the Boxer primer would be a delicate business, but it could be done. Not with the traditional seating punch, but with one that would bear on the face of the case, and thus seat the primer exactly flush.

Give it a try. I've not done any 7.65 Swiss as i don't have one. Primer depth is fine in the 7.62x54R cases, the 8x57 cases and the 7.65 Argie cases i've tried so far.

Larry Gibson

More special tools to make ! Life is good !

Phil W.

Larry Gibson

03-06-2012, 07:01 PM

larry
you must be a master with the hand drill!!!
this is like trying to make hp into #6 bird shot !!!!!!!!!!!!

Well I did say it was easier with a drill press and I did mess up a few cases in the beginning......[smilie=l:

With the hand press it takes a sharp drill, relatively high drill speed and a gentle "feel".

Larry Gibson

uscra112

03-06-2012, 11:05 PM

OK, maybe I went off from half-cock. I went at it under 4x magnification tonight, and it's not what I thought.

The floor of the Berdan pocket at the outer edges measures .137 deep, as best I can do with three samples, a spent LR cup, and a caliper. They seat the cup of the Berdan primer on this floor. If I drill the Berdan post away until the edges of the 137 degree dimple I'm making with the #18 drill are just flush with the floor, then a SR primer can still seat on what's left of the floor, and be about .015" below flush. The firing pin of my K31 still hits it, and the primer is well supported, so my concerns about variance in ignition were groundless.

Still, depth control is key. If you leave .020 of the post there, the anvil of the SR primer will rest on the burr, and will not be solidly supported. Then there will be ignition variance. It will look good, because the face of the primer is flush, but it won't work good.

Larry Gibson

03-07-2012, 11:28 AM

uscra112

I don't think "match prepped" primer pockets is goona happen, especially with me using a hand drill:D They look better when I use my drill press and mill tabel but still not going to be bench rest quality. Serviceable with several firings is what I was really looking for, hopuing for 15 - 20 firings:D So far the SR primer converted Albanian cases have been fired 5 times without a loss of case through split necks or the bushing coming out. Accuracy is on par with the same load using Norma cases with issue sights in my Finn M39, not sure milsurp rifles can tell the difference in primer pockets. I haven't chronographed or pressure tested the converted cases vs Norma cases with the same load yet to see if there is a difference in ignition with the SR vs LR primers. Of course I wouldn't expect any ignition difference in a test with the Bulgarian cases converted to LR boxer primers with the same LR primers used.

Go ahead and try the 7.65 cases and let us know the results. Are you converting to SR or LR bboxer primers?

Larry Gibson

Harter66

03-07-2012, 12:22 PM

I made a drill tool after aquiring several hundred 7.62-39s.

Its just a piece of hardware store 5/16 inch rod and a 1/16 inch drill bit w/ a number 6 lock screw drilled and tapped in. The rod centers in the case mouth and the drill centers in the base divot. While not perfect it works for me.

I drill only about 80% through the head then run the case through my sizing die as normal, I did have to turn my decaping pin down some to avoid sticking and further flash hole enlargement.

There is another thread somewhere that describes using a bearing press and ball bearing to swage the pocket down to LRP,that is the method I used for mine.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_123384f5770e06f23e.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4311)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_123384f5787dbec7cc.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4312)

ksJoe

03-11-2012, 11:24 PM

A few weeks ago Dad converted some to 209 shotgun primers on his drill press, and it was kinda tedious.

So he brought the rest over and we used my lathe. He had Lee Loader hammer type reloading die for the cartridge. So we put the resizer die in the lathe chuck, and used a rubber mallet to tap the cases in the die. Then used a drill chuck in the tail stock, to drill them out, and an endmill to add a recess for the lip around the 209's. That made it quick, very consistent, and a clean looking job.

newcastter

04-25-2012, 10:39 AM

Awesome post!!! I saw this and started picking up the left over brass at the range I would have otherwise kicked to the side while picking up all the other brass I reload, I just converted 70 cases in last 2 days with a Dewalt hand drill and only had maybe 5 that walked on me, Sizing dies will be here tomorrow and I am exited to cast for this 7.62x54 I would have never planned to reload, I converted to LR primer so when I swaged the old primer wall it covered the old beredan primer flash holes.
I used a 5/64 for the flash hole and 3/32 to enlarge the hole, with a drill its easy to feel when it is ready to break the surface for the larger hole, it will grab then I stop grab the case and pull it as I turn the drill and it finishes the hole and pops right out, keep in mind doing all the cutting at lower speeds actually cut better and faster.

mrhoward69

05-02-2012, 02:50 AM

Do you think this will work with 45 ACP cases as well?

Tokarev

05-02-2012, 04:20 PM

Here's how I convert the berdan to boxer on a mini lathe (case in the chuck):

1. Drill a hole thru the primer with a center drill deep enough to drill thru the berdan anvil that it's flush with primer pocket bottom. With my center drill it means drilling almost all the way to where straight drill turns into 45 degree.
2. Ream the hole with primer pocket reamer held in the rear center chuck.

I don't drill a new flash hole because there are 2 flash holes already in berdan case.

This requires only 2 operations after which the case is ready to be primed.

RayinNH

05-02-2012, 09:44 PM

Tokarev you really want to drill the new flash hole in the center or else the next time you resize the cases you won't be able to use the decapping pin to poke out the old primer...Ray

Tokarev

05-02-2012, 10:31 PM

I know :) but I am still going thru a huge box of berdan primed 308 that I traded for boxer 303 and 300 win mag, so next reloading cycle is years away.

newcastter

05-09-2012, 05:40 PM

Tokarev

05-09-2012, 09:45 PM

There are only 3 primer sizes for boxer: small, large and 50bmg.

Twmaster

05-10-2012, 12:49 AM

I tried to seat Large Magnum Primers today and it wouldn't go in all the way, this diameter is good, I am wondering if the primer is to deep, Anyone know if a Large Rifle Primer would not be as deep as a Magnum Large Rifle Primer?

If you are asking about Berdan primers they do come in a brain hurting number of sizes both in diameter and depth.

Without more details it's kinda hard to finger this out for you.

Tokarev

05-10-2012, 07:17 AM

Actually, if berdan brass is in an odd primer pocket size, it's a boon: they can be converted to a next larger boxer size using a primer pocket reamer.

newcastter

05-10-2012, 07:58 AM

I swaged the pocket to a large pocket after drilling a new flash hole and drilling away the top of the old primer leaving the old primer walls to swage. What I ended up doing was grabbing a pack of magnum pistol primers and they were not as deep so they seated good so I will test shoot this weekend.

Twmaster

05-10-2012, 08:16 AM

Pistol primers in a rifle may be a bad thing. The metal in pistol primers are not as thick as rifle primers and may either be pierced by the firing pin or may come out of the pocket due to higher pressures.

Crawdaddy

05-10-2012, 04:07 PM

newcastter

05-10-2012, 05:55 PM

ckcadavona

05-10-2012, 06:51 PM

I just bought an SKS and was wanting to reload for it. As I walked around our range I saw a wealth of Berdan primed brass. I wondered if it was possible to convert it.

I now know the answer.

Thanks for posting Larry.

The Yugo 7.62x39 works great. I have about 20 cases fired 5 times with Larry's conversion.

Tokarev

05-10-2012, 06:52 PM

I just bought an SKS and was wanting to reload for it. As I walked around our range I saw a wealth of Berdan primed brass. I wondered if it was possible to convert it.

I now know the answer.

Thanks for posting Larry.

What you saw were most likely steel cases. They are not as easily converted as brass, but not impossible.
Also the steel cases eat the dies and mandrels :(

Ruger45

05-19-2012, 01:38 PM

Around 30 years ago I had some .303 British military rounds that were Berdan primed. Well I fired them and saved the brass. Anyway I got into one of my moods to try something. In order to get the berdan primer out without too much trouble I took a peice of steel and drilled a hole in it a little bigger than the primer and counter bored it so the rim would fit into it. Then I took a peice of metal that would barely fit into the shell. Now fill it almost full of water, put it in the peice of metal for the primer and put the metal rod in the mouth of the shell and hit with a hammer. The water will create enough pressure to force out the primer. Messy? Yes it is. Then I bored out the primer pocket and drilled a flash hole. Then I made an insert and tapped it into the flash hole. I also made the insert so that I could use a large rifle primer. DON'T use aluminum like I did. You will get a face full of gas. Use steel. I only done that to see if it could be done. It can but you must be carefull! I found out it's a lot easier to just shoot up the berdan stuff and let it lay.

Catch

05-19-2012, 10:28 PM

Tried this wonderful idea today. I am thinking that the secret to success is the centering of the drilled hole. I found a very small center drill, put my russian sizing die in the lathe minus the decapping pin and started the hole with the center drill. On the drill press I used a large block of wood with a hole drilled a little smaller than 1/2 and the case was held in a straight position for the drill. In both cases you need a drill rod to push the case out of the home made holders. Larry, was the #18 drill used for a small rifle primer? I used the # 8 and swaged for a large rifle primer, but wondered if the small one was a better idea for any reason? I have some 7.65 Argentine I also want to try. Is there any way to decide how deep to drill other than the famous trial and error method? Even then its worth alot to have the extra brass and the fun of doing it.
Thanks for the great idea!!!!!!

xs11jack

05-21-2012, 01:06 AM

I am a scratch reloader. I am poor enough that I have to scratch for every penny I spend on reloading. When I read Larry's solution to berdan primers, I nearly fainted with joy!!! I have a bunch of berdan primed brass just waiting for Larry's fix. I am lined up with the others on this site that are amazed at the geniuses here. I don't think any other site on guns has the brain power that this one has. People like Larry are a treasure to the rest of us. When we use these solutions, we think of the people that worked hard and came up with a idea that works. I know that I just thank the good Lord for them.
Ole Jack

Larry Gibson

05-23-2012, 11:06 AM

Larry, was the #18 drill used for a small rifle primer? I used the # 8 and swaged for a large rifle primer, but wondered if the small one was a better idea for any reason?

There are basically two sizes of Berdan primers as there are two sizes of Boxer primers (talking diameters here). I've found both sizes of Berdan primers used in the same cartridge; i.e. my Bulgarian 7.62x54R use the larger Berdan primer so for LR Boxer primers in those I use the #8 drill. The Albanian 7.62x54R cases use the smaller Berdan primer so for the SR Boxer primer I use the #18 drill.

Larry Gibson

JIMinPHX

05-23-2012, 06:11 PM

There are basically two sizes of Berdan primers as there are two sizes of Boxer primers (talking diameters here).

That is not consistent with what I have seen. I have found that there are several slightly different diameters of Berdan primers out there.

Larry Gibson

05-25-2012, 08:00 PM

Well, since developing this technique I've been altering 7x57, 7.62x39, 7.62x54R, 7.65 Swiss, 7.65 Argentine, .303 B, and 8x57. All of different headstamps dating back to the late '30s. I've found the two sizes are handles nicely by the 2 different drill sizes and the large and small size swagers. I've not found other than the two sizes so far.

Besides, the 2 listed drill sizes (#8 & #18) are only to take the top off the berdan primer leaving the sides in the pocket. The two drills are not used to drill the primer pocket to any diameter. That will be handled by the pocket swage.

Larry Gibson

JIMinPHX

05-26-2012, 11:57 PM

A few listings for different Berdan primer sizes can be found here -

http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/berdan_supplies_dimensions.html
http://carstenpuls.de/berdan-primer-sizes&page=3

Perhaps the differences are small enough that you methods compensate for them, or perhaps you have been fortunate enough to run into fairly consistent versions.

melter68

06-15-2012, 03:16 PM

Nice Post Larry Gibson,

i did all my cases not in a vice but on a 8mm bolt with the head cut off, so the brass case sat on the bolt and the bolt held in a vise, so as not so damage the brass case,
om my drill press, 20 cases in 20 mins, no rush.

All i did was drill the centre of the primer (were the firing pin had hit, if it was central) with a 2mm bit, straight through to the bolt, so as to give you the new flash hole, drill down with a 3mm bit into the primer, insert a screw driver and prize out primer.
Get rid of the bump between the two old flash holes, with a 5mm bit i grinded flat, so as to mill it and finally re drill the 2mm new flash hole to make it clean again, after getting rid of the bump between the old flash holes.

Great post, i take my hat off to you sir
best wishes from england

Larry Gibson

06-16-2012, 07:48 PM

Melter68

Great idea! Adds to the concept a bunch.

Larry Gibson

Larry Gibson

06-16-2012, 07:51 PM

..............Perhaps the differences are small enough that you methods compensate for them, or perhaps you have been fortunate enough to run into fairly consistent versions.

More than likely it is the use of the primer pocket swage that makes my method adaptable to the slight variation in Berdan primer sizes. The use of the swage obviously swages the inside diameter to the correct Boxer primer size.

Larry Gibson

WILCO

08-11-2012, 03:32 PM

Good stuff here, thanks for sharing

Ditto for me! I was walking past a box of "Goodies" and just found a large pickle jar crammed with berdan 30-06 and .308 brass! Man, I love finding stuff I've forgotten about. :p

Twmaster

08-11-2012, 09:54 PM

Ditto for me! I was walking past a box of "Goodies" and just found a large pickle jar crammed with berdan 30-06 and .308 brass! Man, I love finding stuff I've forgotten about. :p

Same here. Last week a buddy of mine gave me a box full of brass. 2000+ 9MM cases and 300+ 7.62x51 NATO cases (berdan primed) I'm building a Mauser in .308. I have all the brass I'll ever need now!

WILCO

08-12-2012, 12:32 AM

I have all the brass I'll ever need now!

Life is good!:D

WILCO

08-12-2012, 05:04 PM

Found some berdan 7.62x54R brass in a bucket today. Was looking for a bobber and found that instead.

kcatto

08-18-2012, 05:10 AM

This is such a great idea

Twmaster

09-12-2012, 02:11 AM

Got around to trying this today. Unknown make 7.62NATO cases. .217" Berdan primed. Chucked the case up in the little lathe and drilled out the flash hole. Then cut the top of the cup off the primer and gently cleared the anvil out.

When I seated a fired SR primer it was 20 thou or so deeper in the pocket than I'd like to see.

I saw the post earlier in the thread where one fellow had the same issue with some Swiss brass....

I'm hoping the firing pin protrusion on my Mauser project will be enough.

I'll Make Mine

09-12-2012, 07:31 PM

You know, it's tempting to try a variant of this on the steel, .257" Berdan surplus cases I've been shooting. The inside of these larger Berdan primers is, I think, too big to swage for a .210" large rifle primer, but if I were to pop the primer cups out after drilling the flash hole, I could then turn brass rod to .257", cut slices as thick as the depth of the pocket, and press them in. I'd then redrill the flash hole, drill a starter for the .210" pocket with a 13/64" drill, and use a pocket reamer (driven with a power drill) to finish the new pocket to size and depth. If the brass is a tight press in the original pocket, these should stay in as well as the swaged cup, but I'm not sure it's worth this level of effort (I'd be sure it wasn't if I had a stash of brass Berdan cases or ammo).

Even if I find the whole process more trouble than it's worth, predrilling with the #18 drill, from the base side, would greatly simplify the shotgun primer conversions I've been working on -- it'd let me drill from the base for the #31 that gives a slightly undersize hole for the .242" battery cup. In fact, for this conversion, I may have to try just drilling with a small center drill -- it's smaller than the original pocket, and plenty stiff to cut into the anvil, if I don't use too much tailstock extension in my lathe...

danm0

04-25-2013, 02:18 PM

There are 4 sizes, small rifle and pistol are the same, but large rifle and pistol are slightly different one is slightly longer, and of course 50BMG.

danm0

04-25-2013, 02:23 PM

I am no expert, but do remember that you are now igniting the Powder in three places instead of two. Should not be a problem at moderate loads, but at Max loads I would think it could be.

LukeLewis

05-02-2013, 01:19 AM

Hey guys, I'm new to casting. Luckily bought most of my equipment before the recent price rise in the anticipation of my SKS. I have a steady supply of 7.62x39 steel cases that I can pick up from my local gun range (~200 a trip after a few minutes work). I was wondering if anyone could evaluate my plan of action in regards to converting them to boxer primer capable cases. I was thinking I could make a jig to insert my drill into that would allow me to push cases (fired primer and all) through an appropriately sized hole to drill out the center of the berdan primed cases. This hole would then give me an easy way to use a homemade tool to pry out the spent berdan primers before replacing them with boxer primers. It would look something like this:
69070
Obviously the drill would be held in such a way as to keep it completely stationary, and I would probably just use a rubber band to keep it running throughout the process. I would think that If done correctly, it would allow me to quickly drill out the steel cases for boxer use. I don't have access to a drill press so this would basically be a lathe type adaption to the idea.
Thanks for any input!

WRideout

05-02-2013, 07:24 AM

Luke, I have just gone through the process of converting some 7.5 Swiss, berdan primed. Here is what I found out. When I used a drill press to go through the primer and drill the anvil of the case at the same time, the drill wanders off to the side, and will not drill a proper center hole. I suspect that it will be very difficult to keep any hand-held drill steady enough to drill the flash hole without first eliminating the anvil.

I finally had to take all my brass to a friend who has a lathe. With the correct diameter center and twist drills, it was easy to take the bottom off the primer, like Larry said originally, and then drill the flash hole. I then swaged the pockets with an RCBS tool.

Wayne

sixpointfive

05-23-2013, 01:38 PM

When I used mini lathe the Sr primer was loose and fell ot

mold maker

05-23-2013, 04:41 PM

I drilled the top of the cup and anvil away. Then used a punch and steel post inside to flatten the primer post. Then drilled the flash hole and finished sizing the pocket. The punch displacing the post, filled the Berdain twin flash holes, leaving almost perfect Boxer brass

sixpointfive

05-23-2013, 04:45 PM

I am doing 6.5x55 do I still use small rifle primers?

Twmaster

05-23-2013, 08:56 PM

Yes you should use small primers. The key is for the rim of the original berdan primer to remain in the case. Then you swage the pocket with the rim of the old primer still in the original pocket.

sixpointfive

05-23-2013, 09:17 PM

I tried using the small primer pocket reamer in my mini lathe and the pockets are loose. I do not have the small primer pocket swager. I guess I will have to get one.

Twmaster

05-24-2013, 12:40 AM

It needs to be swaged. The reamer removes metal. The swager reforms the metal keeping it in the pocket.

mace2364

05-24-2013, 02:07 AM

Has anyone done this with surplus 8x56R casings? I've got some, and I'd like to load for my Steyrs, but I don't have any other brass.

Larry Gibson

05-24-2013, 09:01 AM

Has anyone done this with surplus 8x56R casings? I've got some, and I'd like to load for my Steyrs, but I don't have any other brass.

No reason it won't work with the 8x56R cases. Whether converting to large or small boxer primers will depend on the size of berdan primer the cases have.

Larry Gibson

onomrbil

05-24-2013, 09:56 AM

Why not just use berdan primers? They're becoming more and more readily available. RCBS makes a great decapping tool. I've reloaded berdan for years . . . ..

sixpointfive

05-24-2013, 10:27 AM

Can these handle full power loads?

sixpointfive

05-24-2013, 06:31 PM

ok, ordered the small swager. I do have the large one but we are shooting for small rifle primers. What if one opens it up and uses large rifle primers and swages the primer pocket with a steel bearing?

Twmaster

05-24-2013, 07:07 PM

I've done the bearing method before. While I like the small primer method better.

sixpointfive

05-25-2013, 10:52 PM

Does it have to be #18 drill?

sixpointfive

05-25-2013, 11:07 PM

Does it have to be #18 drill?

khmer6

05-25-2013, 11:40 PM

Find a drill bit that you have similar to a primer flash hole and a small rifle primer. That's what I did and the conclusions I came to

SciFiJim

05-27-2013, 08:24 PM

I've tried it with a hand drill with no success. I don't have a drill press, so will have to rethink and try something different.

sixpointfive

05-27-2013, 08:39 PM

Fired some today that I used both the lr(ball bearing swaged) and Sr versions (this thread). Both were very excellent!

Twmaster

05-28-2013, 12:15 AM

Full power or lighter loads?

sixpointfive

05-28-2013, 06:10 AM

Full power. No gas leaks and pockets still tight.

TreeKiller

05-30-2013, 08:15 PM

Has anyone done this with surplus 8x56R casings? I've got some, and I'd like to load for my Steyrs, but I don't have any other brass.
I haven't tried it on the 8X56R. Was able to buy some Tula Berdan primers. The primer on the 8X56R brass is smaller than the 7.62X54R and I do not know if it would leave enough rim from the old primer to get a tight fit. But i do 7.62X54R and it works very good.

Twmaster

05-30-2013, 11:01 PM

I have no idea what a 7.65X54R is. I'm assuming you mean 7.62x54R (as in Russian Mosin Nagant ammo) Most of those cases have a very large primer. You should be able to use the same process but you'll be using a large rifle boxer primer and a larger drill bit to cut out the center of the spent primer.

Be careful what Berdan primers you buy. Some are for the 7.62x39 round and are shorter than the large rifle type Berdan primers and may be too far recessed into the case for the firing pin to properly strike the primer.

Also beware these smaller primers apparently may not reliably ignite large rifle cases.

and I have no idea what you mean with 2.67x54R

The primers listed as for NATO will work in most large rifle Berdan primed cases.

Larry Gibson

05-31-2013, 10:59 AM

Why not just use berdan primers? They're becoming more and more readily available. RCBS makes a great decapping tool. I've reloaded berdan for years . . . ..

You can but you have to get set up for using the berdan primers; depriming tool, different primer seating punches (sizes) sometimes, take pin out of dies and put back when using boxer cases, the berdan sizes don't feed well or at all in auto priming systems, etc. etc.

The method I describe is easy to do and once done it's done and you're good to go with boxer primers. Either method the choice is yours, I prefer to convert and not mess with berdan primers is all.

Larry Gibson

Larry Gibson

05-31-2013, 11:11 AM

Does it have to be #18 drill?

No, it has to be a size that removes the bottom of the primer w/o removing the side of the berdan primer left in the primer pocket. You can use a bit larger and a bit smaller size. Just this last week I converted some .303 Brit cases (South African awesome brass cases) to SR boxer primers. I use a hand drill and a 5/64" drill for the falsh hole and a 5/32" drill to remove the bottom of the primer and remove most of the remaining anvil. Worked like a charm.

Larry Gibson

Larry Gibson

05-31-2013, 11:15 AM

I've done the bearing method before. While I like the small primer method better.

I tried the ball bearing method also and no matter what I did I always had considerable gas leakage with some. The bearing only swages the top of the primer pocket and not down to the bottom of the pocket sides.

Leaving the sides of the berdan primer in the pocket provides complete support for boxer primer sides just like a normal primer pocket.

Larry Gibson

Larry Gibson

05-31-2013, 12:00 PM

I've tried it with a hand drill with no success. I don't have a drill press, so will have to rethink and try something different.

The key is;

Have a vise to hold the case

Center the firing indentation in the primer with a sharp center punch

Use the correct size drills that are sharp at low speed

Drill the flash hole 1st....it will then keep the large drill bit centered to remove the bottom of the primer leaving the sides

Go slow, slow is smooth, smooth is fast

It's not difficult but will take a few cases to develop the "feel".....once you get it it's like riding a bicycle...you'll just get on and rde again....

Larry Gibson

Twmaster

05-31-2013, 07:57 PM

I tried the ball bearing method also and no matter what I did I always had considerable gas leakage with some. The bearing only swages the top of the primer pocket and not down to the bottom of the pocket sides.

Leaving the sides of the berdan primer in the pocket provides complete support for boxer primer sides just like a normal primer pocket.

Larry Gibson

Larry, without question your method is superior to the ball bearing trick. I've had good results with the BB, however as I've said I like your method better.

SciFiJim

06-01-2013, 01:04 AM

The key is;

Have a vise to hold the case

Center the firing indentation in the primer with a sharp center punch

Use the correct size drills that are sharp at low speed

Drill the flash hole 1st....it will then keep the large drill bit centered to remove the bottom of the primer leaving the sides

Go slow, slow is smooth, smooth is fast

It's not difficult but will take a few cases to develop the "feel".....once you get it it's like riding a bicycle...you'll just get on and rde again....

Larry Gibson

It seemed like it was difficult for the old ones to cut. Perhaps they were dull. I don't have the skill to sharpen them by hand. I will buy some new drill bits and try again. I've got several hundred berdan cases. Only ruined about 20 so far.

onomrbil

06-02-2013, 09:25 AM

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/3986?

deces

06-02-2013, 06:37 PM

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryid/3986?

out of stock

khmer6

06-02-2013, 06:58 PM

Always is. I believe there is only one importer/distributer for berdan primer. Convert to boxer once and be done with it forever. Don't be dependent on the ruskie :-)

sixpointfive

06-02-2013, 07:00 PM

Really easy to do on mini lathe. I am hooked. Now I am asking friends to give me their berdan cases

ksJoe

06-02-2013, 08:16 PM

out of stock

http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/

Has 1 size of Berdan currently in stock: TULA BERDAN (KV-24N) 7.62X39 PRIMERS (1000) $25

TreeKiller

06-02-2013, 09:37 PM

Any one try one of these to start the hole in the primer? My thinking is that it should be stiffer than a small drill.

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_related.php?RelatedID=-405997707

khmer6

06-02-2013, 09:38 PM

ksJoe

06-02-2013, 09:40 PM

Any one try one of these to start the hole in the primer? My thinking is that it should be stiffer than a small drill.

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_related.php?RelatedID=-405997707

Yes, they're stiffer. They'll take out the anvil without deflecting.

Twmaster

06-02-2013, 11:07 PM

Yes, they're stiffer. They'll take out the anvil without deflecting.

And should leave you a small indent to keep your drill for the flash hole centered too.

louism

06-02-2013, 11:15 PM

I just did a bunch of 7.62x54 cases. Steel cases have new life. I'm going to have to seal the old primer some were falling out after firing and depriming. The 7.62x39 had a red laquer on them that makes it pretty durable

I am thinking of trying your method and the above post made me think. What if the old primer was soft soldered in before the conversion. I would think that would hold it in through many firings and reloading cycles.

SciFiJim

06-02-2013, 11:25 PM

I am thinking of trying your method and the above post made me think. What if the old primer was soft soldered in before the conversion. I would think that would hold it in through many firings and reloading cycles.

I would be concerned about the heat of soldering. Eutectic solder (63/37) melts at 361 degrees. What temp does brass soften at for annealing?

Twmaster

06-03-2013, 12:15 AM

I saw a slick method of boxer priming 303 British and 7.62x54R cases with the BIG Berdan primer. Cut off a thin disk from the end of a piece of copper pipe with a 1/4" OD . Then press the copper disk into the primer swage tip (use the large primer tip). Then press the copper disk into the berdan case (remove the anvil first).

With a file, grinder or lathe clean up the area around the primer pocket. Then re-swage.

ETA: Found the You Tube video explaining the procedure.

http://youtu.be/AkKJfvMyuDg

WRideout

06-04-2013, 06:16 AM

Yes, they're stiffer. They'll take out the anvil without deflecting.[/QUOTE]

That was my experience also.
Wayne

huey45

08-13-2013, 02:44 PM

[Q

Good Work Larry, I have stacks of German ex milsurp in 7.62x51 NATO brass
would your guide work with them, or is there any differences ??

QUOTE=Larry Gibson;1595289]So the obvious question; does it work? To answer that I loaded the 19 cases I was successful in converting of the Albainian. These cases had been fired in my Finn M39. I used a .337 bushing in the converted .284 Win Redding bushing die to NS the cases. They were primed with Rem 7 ½ primers ans loaded with 30 gr 4895 (milsurp) and a ¾ gr dacron filler added. On top of that I seated 176 gr GB C316291s cast of WW + 2% tin with a BHN of 16. These had been sized at .314 and lubed with Javelina. The GCs were my own made from .014 aluminum. Made a quick trip to the range today and just shot the 19 rounds off sand bags at 100 yards. Well, I did hold the 1st shot out at arms length and just shot the berm….better safe than sorry. All was well, very well in fact so I settled down on the bench. Set the rear sight on 500m and you can see the 1st shot at 1130 just outside the black. Moved the sight down 3 notches (5 notches between 400m & 500m) and fired 3 shots, the low ones at 7:30 in the 9 ring. Moved the sight back up 2 notches and fired 3 shots which went in at 11:00 in the 9 and 10 ring. Moved back down 1 notche and moved the front sight left 1 “dot”. I then fired the remaining 11 shots getting 4 tens and 7 Xs……about the best my old eyes can do anymore with open service sights.

I deprimed the cases at home and all the SR primers came out as expected. None of the Berdan rings in the primer pockets came out. I reloaded all the cases again and will continue firing to see how long they last……so far….so good

Larry Gibson

Addendum; 5 Feb 2012

Dug through my "stash" and found 120 rounds of Bulgarian 7.62x54R 55-10 with very nice brass cases, They had the larger Berdan size primer. I shot 20 rounds of it today and tonight I converted the Berdan Primer pockets to take Large Rifle Boxer primers. Procedure was identical except a #8 drill was used in lieu of the #18 and the LR primer pocket swage was used. It was quite easy this time and I didn't lose a single case. Bottom photo shows the prgression of conversion and then the loaded box of 20. I will hopefully test fire tomorrow to see if the bushings stay when the boxer LR is punched out.[/QUOTE]

Mike 56

08-27-2013, 12:33 PM

Mike 56

08-27-2013, 12:59 PM

Here is another video from the same guy using using boxer primers in 7.62x39 berdan steel cases. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwmmsZ-aX4g&feature=share&list=PLolhrB-R_9upbZZqsF76sN4j085eBtPFg

sixpointfive

09-02-2013, 07:25 PM

this last batch of 54r are getting blow by the primers and the necks are too fat to chamber.

sixpointfive

09-03-2013, 01:36 PM

the berdan primer holes are larger than most. I then have three flash holes the same size. is there anyway to plug yhe berdan holes.?

Mike 56

09-03-2013, 02:32 PM

On the 54r cases that have real big primers whats left of the old primer or the sleeve you make should cover the two berdan flash holes. I think the flash hole he maid in the video is to big. After i get a pocket swager. I plan using a brass rod and a punch to flatten the berdan anvil and finding or making a self centering center punch for the new flash hole this might close or almost close the berdan flash holes. I also have some 54r ammo that have the smaller berdan primers i want to try to convert some of these as well as taking a part LR boxer primers and using the berdan anvil. I am going to try the same thing with some 7.62x39 steel cases.

mikeym1a

09-03-2013, 02:36 PM

I found this Video on utube useing another way of converting cases http://youtu.be/AkKJfvMyuDg What i did not like about his converion is his primer holes looked too big. I was thinking if you flattened the anvil and found or made a centering center punch to fit the berdan primer pocket it his idea might work out well. I think lock tight and brass tubing would all so improve it.
He was converting steel cases, I believe. The anvil is stamped from the other side, leaving a depression, and IF you had the right diameter and length of bit, you could drill it out from the other side. I think a drill bit with the point ground off and resharpened would be the best way to drill out the pocket, and a drill press with a stop on it. Just my view.

sixpointfive

09-03-2013, 03:46 PM

on this group of berdan cases the two flash holes are large/ After I put in my SR primer I can see light when I look in to the case. The lih=ght is the edge of the primer up against the berdan primer holes

Mike 56

09-03-2013, 03:52 PM

That sounds like a good idea for centering the flash hole. I will be working on this next week i will let you know how it works out.

Mike 56

09-03-2013, 03:55 PM

sixpointfive

09-03-2013, 06:04 PM

Here it is, I think the original berdan flash holes are too big. The last batch of berdan cases I had dad smaller flash holes.

80951

Mike 56

09-03-2013, 10:27 PM

Those holes are huge. I don't think i would try plugging them.

sixpointfive

09-03-2013, 10:38 PM

the other berdan stuff I converted in 6.5x55 and 7.62x54r all had tiny holes and work great with many firings using small rifle primers.

Larry Gibson

09-04-2013, 07:54 PM

So far I haven't run across any cases with flash holes that large. As with anything like this there are probably some cases that will be oddb als and won't work.

Larry Gibson

sixpointfive

09-05-2013, 04:26 PM

I just received 125 cases from a brother here at cast boolits. Out of all of these only five cases had the small berdan flash holes. So now I have 150 cases with the larger flash holes. There has got to be a way to make these reloadable. They are all marked "87".

Ok, I punched out .010" aluminum discs, swaged them to bottom of primer pockets and drilled flash holes.

sixpointfive

09-06-2013, 09:49 AM

Ok, I punched out .010" aluminum discs, swaged them to bottom of primer pockets and drilled flash holes.

JohnTheGreat

10-28-2013, 02:49 PM

I'm going to attempt this on 7.62x54r steel... Will let you all know how it works out... Just have to get the tools!!! As I am new to reloading is there anything I should look out for!?!? Thanks for this wonderful information guys!!! :-P

uscra112

10-28-2013, 05:57 PM

Just that steel cases will not play nicely with your sizing dies.

Garyshome

10-28-2013, 08:26 PM

OK after the liberal apocalypse happens and i don't have to work for a while I will try this out, unless I have some berdan primers to use up first.

mold maker

10-29-2013, 01:29 PM

seems like I read a method of converting to Boxer but life expectancy vs work involved did not make the cut. I think it was Cartridge conversations book.

A lot of what has been written in the past is no longer valid. Properly done a converted case should last just as long as any other.
When push comes to shove, any useable case is a good option.

freebullet

10-31-2013, 11:03 PM

I read all of the conversion threads I could find last year. Here is what I came up with as the fastest way to deal with Berdan primers.
I pick up non-rusted steel cases for free. They get tumbled in walnut for 15-20 minutes, longer can remove the coating on the cases. Then the case gets set in a socket, put in the decapper,turn it till it drops in the flash hole, & smack it with a screwdriver handle. You can get 1k done this way while watchin tv with yer lady, in one evening.
86034
Then they get reprimed, using a hornady hand primer. Used 1000 grit paper on the large primer end of the tray, it took almost no sanding. Basically smooth it to make them feed. I had 2 go off repriming, & am working on a stop washer that can hopefully prevent any going off. If you get a feel for it you know when to stop, but a postive stop will be better. The primers can be ordered from grafs & several other retailers, they are no more $ then boxers.
86035
Then I chargem & seat the boolit. I learned after making the test loads pictured, that the steel cases like a generous chamfer on the mouth to prevent shaving the boolits.

86036

GO SHOOT!!!

Multigunner

11-02-2013, 05:38 AM

Seems to me the original flash holes should be enough , no real need to drill or punch a central flash hole for boxer primers. The anvil legs should not block the flash holes, the primer flash will still find its way through the two small holes.

I have a small bit that's basically a rotary file with radial teeth on the face for plunge cutting. I think it came with some generic dremil bits.
Drilling the berdan anvil in the center even with the bottom of the pocket would remove most of the metal, then plunge cut it till its all gone.

Use a drill press, with a thick aluminum plate bolted to the table with hole in the center a close fit to the cartridge case base. That should hold the case head secure enough to prevent wandering.

Also I should mention that a study on case head failures of Frankford Arsenal ammunition in 1934 was shown to be due to one leg of a primer staking die being longer than the rest. The extra length caused a work hardened stress line on that side of the case head.
It was also found that the act of stamping the head stamp was beneficial in hardening the rim of a case.
So any re swaging of brass primer pockets should be done with great care.

freebullet

11-02-2013, 06:04 AM

Multigunner

11-02-2013, 11:32 PM

The purpose of the central flash hole convert is to be able to deprime them normally next go round.
I can see how that would be more convenient.
The old hydraulic de-capping procedure once used on Berdan primers should work on Boxer primers from a two hole cup. Once any military type staking or criming and been removed at least.
The method I described would at least leave the case head less weakened. Might be worth the extra effort in de-capping.

Twmaster

11-05-2013, 06:55 AM

I can see how that would be more convenient.
The old hydraulic de-capping procedure once used on Berdan primers should work on Boxer primers from a two hole cup. Once any military type staking or criming and been removed at least.
The method I described would at least leave the case head less weakened. Might be worth the extra effort in de-capping.

If you are going to take the extra bother to decap these like you would Berdan primers why bother converting them at all?

Larry Gibson

11-05-2013, 05:02 PM

freebullet

11-05-2013, 06:15 PM

With the life of Berdan primed brass the conversion would be worth it. Some of the brass is of very high quality. The steel cases are not really worth the conversion. Usually only get to reload them 0-6 times, the case necks will split when you size them. If you gettem free they are worth dealing with.

newcastter

11-09-2013, 06:59 PM

I think most of what I find is steel. Even the brass colored cases seem to rust and I believe they are actually "copper washed" steel.
I load a GC cast bullet over 30gr of Varget and it splits the neck after the first reload every time. So what are we really talking about here with converting berdan primed brass? Are they really brass or are they the copper washed steel? I just have never come across actual berdan primed brass in 7.62x54r.

Twmaster

11-09-2013, 09:27 PM

Actual Berdan primed brass 7.62x54R is rare. I have a few. Very few.

Janoosh

11-10-2013, 10:51 AM

I do believe Albanian surplus 762 x 54 is brass cased, that is what I use. My friends save the brass for me. Swiss and Austrian surplus, for their appropriate firearms, is very good brass also.

Multigunner

11-10-2013, 08:41 PM

If you are going to take the extra bother to decap these like you would Berdan primers why bother converting them at all?
Cause Berdan primers aren't that easy to find around here.
They are available but if you already have easy access to boxer primers you might prefer those, especially if you already have a preferred brand, and a stockpile of those.

I have a few FN .303 cases that I was disappointed to find were Berdan primed, the diameter of the primer looks close to that of the standard large rifle primer.
I have POF brass that takes a very large diameter primer.
Not sure if I care to convert any cases since Boxer primed .303 cases are available.

I a SHTF scenario it would be much easier to manufacture Berdan primers compared to boxer primers.

PS
I can see how converting cases would be desireable if you have buckets ful of once fired berdan cases, or the cartridge is of a type that boxer primed cases are not available.
Carry on, I'm not that interested.

TreeKiller

11-10-2013, 09:45 PM

I do believe Albanian surplus 762 x 54 is brass cased, that is what I use. My friends save the brass for me. Swiss and Austrian surplus, for their appropriate firearms, is very good brass also.
Yes Albanian are brass I bought 2 sealed tins when they were available from Century, 2 or 3 years ago.

Seaweed02

11-15-2013, 12:11 PM

My method of conversion as originally posted allows the converted cases to be reloaded the same as any Boxer primed case. I now have 303 Brit, 7.65 Argentine and 8x57 brass cases converted along with the 7.62x54R cases and all have been reloaded multiple times with no problems or loss of any cases.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

Have you fired any FMJ loads with the 8mm Mauser rounds? If so can you tell us how they fired/deprimed/etc.. Thank you,

Carl

Larry Gibson

11-22-2013, 12:38 AM

Larry,

Have you fired any FMJ loads with the 8mm Mauser rounds? If so can you tell us how they fired/deprimed/etc.. Thank you,

Carl

Not FMJs in the 8mm yet that I recall. I have fired service equivalent j bullet loads in the 303, 7.65 Argie and the 7.62x54R w/o any problems at all. All 3 were with the .312 Hornady SP over milsurp 4895.

Larry Gibson

rbuck351

02-08-2014, 06:49 AM

I saw a couple of references to drilling and installing a 209 shotgun primer which I did to a dozen 7.62x39 cases today just to see what was involved. On the mini lathe it was pretty simple but not having tried them yet, I am wondering how they will hold up to full pressure loads. Like to here from folks that have actually tried the 209s. Thanks Buck

Twmaster

02-09-2014, 01:21 AM

I've heard of folks doing that on berdan brass with the largest primers like often seen on 7.62 x 54 and British .303

Please update us once you've shot some.

yeahbub

02-17-2014, 08:48 PM

For eastern bloc berdan cases, there is a very simple method of removing the berdan primers intact after having drilled the anvil through the inside of the case. This involves the use of a long 5/64" drill bit, preferably a split tip and putting it in the dimple (common for eastern block cases, brass or steel) between the flash holes. This dimple is at the center of the anvil and works every time so far. To verify the drill is in the dimple instead of somewhere else, turn the case with your fingers while holding it on the drill bit and see if it turns eccentricly. If so, it's not on center. When it turns without undulating, it's where it should be and drilling can begin. I seat the case against the edge of my workbench and, visually keeping the drill centered in the case mouth, drill until the drill wants to catch and turn the case. Once the bit begins to grab, it's nearly breaking out of the sides of the tapered anvil and it can be deprimed in the usual size-and-decap die. What emerges is the cup and the tip of the anvil. No water involved and it prevents ruining cases with very stubborn primers. Cases from other countries, like British 7.62x51 Radway Green have no dimple and water or a puncture-and-pry tool seems the only reasonably easy method. This drilling the anvil from the inside paves the way for the remainder of the anvil to be removed with a primer pocket depth uniformer which will cut more efficiently now since the stub of anvil is hollow. My preference is to use carbide uniformers for their durability.

Once the anvil is milled away, I use the 5.5mm cups seated backwards in berdan cases which have very deep pockets, some nearly .150 deep, in which a .130 tall boxer LRP would be unreachable by the firing pin. The walls of the reversed cup are then milled out using the uniformer tool. This also closes the two original flash holes and there's just the new one on center once the cup is also drilled, again through the case mouth using the anvil drill hole as a guide. Fortunately, very few cases have these extra deep pockets. The Turkish 8mm has them and some with headstamps I haven't been able to figure out yet. So far, the Eastern Bloc 7.62x54R cases, steel and brass, haven't been a problem to convert. Yugo 7.62x39 also convert handily.

By the way, I notice some folks are converting large cases to small rifle primers and I've done a few as well, but I get an unacceptable number of click-bangs, probably because the small primer isn't vigorous enough to get the charge lit in a timely manner. Now I convert them to LRP only. Are others getting hang-fires also?

Cases with 6.5mm primers have a .253 diameter primer pocket and the temptation is to drill them out to accept 209 shotgun primers, but a very good bushing can be made from 1/4" soft copper tubing. The ID is approximately .180, a bit large for small rifle primers (.175), but for those who prefer them, a piece of tubing .135 long will provide sufficient material, that when pressed in flush with the case head, the hole will be slightly smaller than a small rifle primer and can now be swaged up to correct size with a SRP pocket swage tool. For LRP, it can be swaged for a small primer and then drilled with a #5 bit (.2055), swaged up with a LRP pocket swage button and finished with the LRP pocket uniformer for correct depth. I have had only one of these copper bushings show any willingness to move after being swaged into place and my ten test cases have been loaded five or six times.

Twmaster

02-18-2014, 06:59 PM

That is a very different take on converting these Berdan cases.

I mentioned the copper pipe method in post #132. It's slick and works great in those really large primer cases.

Thank you for posting.

rbuck351

02-21-2014, 01:29 AM

I drilled a few 7.62x54r brass cases to accept a 209 shotgun primer and have been working up to see if they will handle the higher pressure. So far I have got up to 40grs of H4895 with a 150gr cast with good results. When I find some .313 jacketed bullets I will try full power loads. I'm drilling on a lathe starting with a center drill followed with a letter C drill then counter sink for the primer rim with a 5/16 end mill. I'm using RIO 209 primers as they are a couple thousands larger than US primers and fit very tight in the hole made with a C drill. US primers fit but not tight. Right now I'm using some home made punches for priming and depriming similar to the Lee "Whack a Mole" loaders. I'll post more when I have more results.

Harter66

02-24-2014, 07:01 PM

I've shot the 7.62x39 I drilled w/my drill tool that uses the neck as a squaring bushing . I've fired them w/full loads of 4895 and PP'd 150s and 4350 w/both naked and pp'd 200s . The ball swagged pockets for LRP have held up to at least 5 firings at 35,000 to 42,000 (according to the books) w/o covering the berdan holes. This in a slopped out SkS but it works and holds.

monmouth

02-25-2014, 01:24 PM

Hi guys,

I read the thread and it's a great read. For those needing those tricky calibers with Berdan primers, I throw away at least 40lbs of it a month (7.62x54R, 6.55, .308, 7.62x39, etc...). They are all brass and not plated because it has to pass my magnetic test before it hits the stainless pool.

The scrap yard laughs, "That is the cleanest scrap brass in the yard, you don't have to clean it to give it to us." My reply is that it's easier to sort clean brass than dirty, so they all jump in the pool and then I sort/cull. If you need anything, please let me know via PM. I just ask that you cover my scrap price, shipping, and Paypal fees; not looking to make anything on it.

Twmaster

02-25-2014, 07:31 PM

GREENCOUNTYPETE

02-26-2014, 03:11 PM

I have converted a few 7.62x39

I saw Larry emphasizes the center punch a second time about half way through the thread

the center punch centered and deep till your center punching into the anvil is key to drilling with a hand drill and not sliding off the anvil with the drill bit

this changes the oops factor a lot when doing it with a hand drill

if you don't have a rimmed case to keep it from sliding down in the vice , use a bolt that fits in the case and will rest on the vice when you clamp case head between the jaws , this lets you get a much better hit on it with the punch

dnepr

03-17-2014, 09:12 PM

Well I just scored a nice surprise picked up a almost full case of romanian surplus 7.62x39 , thought it would be steel cased stuff but it is brass !! , well I will be doing some conversions to boxer with this stuff , it 1967 production according to the head stamp

Harter66

03-22-2014, 10:22 PM

This little ditty and the drill press make drilling the post a breeze and it uses the neck to hold both the case and tool straight and aligned. I'll admit to loosing about 5 in 200 cases,due to a missed/wandering bit.

100275

Lead

05-04-2014, 05:20 PM

Pretty interesting,alot of work.

NYBushBro

07-14-2014, 11:29 PM

Twmaster

07-15-2014, 05:20 PM

You want the drill bit to be the same size as the flash hole you want to make. I used a #44 (.086") bit myself.

Harter66

07-15-2014, 05:35 PM

1/16 '' They are just Ace's best and actualy about .068, being fractional vs decimal, number or letter drills.

Safeshot

07-15-2014, 08:00 PM

I have converted primer pockets to boxer style a number of different ways. Unless it is impossible to get boxer primed brass in the needed caliber, it is too much trouble, time and effort. Just my opinion.

Ricochet

09-30-2014, 10:37 AM

Here's a question/suggestion for those who've found primer pockets too deep for the Boxer primers, as I saw mentioned with Swiss K11 brass: Could the Berdan primer cup be extracted, reseated upside down with the central hole drilled through and swaged for the Boxer primer? That would take up some depth in the floor of the pocket. Just thinking out loud.

GhostHawk

09-30-2014, 09:24 PM

Ricochet I suspect your right, but it sounds like a lot of work to me.

But if it is the sort of thing you enjoy tinkering with, I think it "could" work.

I did drill out one berdan primer, converting it to boxer for a 7.62x54r but I have to admit I have yet to fire it.
At need I suspect I could do so, but until I have no other choice it is easier to pay a little more for Privi Partizan and get reloadable brass.

Harter66

09-30-2014, 11:02 PM

I have read of soldiering the primer rim in and then or before removing the bottom of the cup. The only problem I see is that if the inverted cup is not fixed it may pull out during decaping.

Eddie2002

09-22-2016, 10:04 AM

I know this is an old thread but I need to add to it some. I recently picked up two bricks of the .217 berdan primers at a local gun show. I've been shooting 30-06 berdan primed brass and was real happy to find more .217 sized primers for my reloads.
Being a brass rat I have a lot of the 7.62x54r large berdan primed brass laying around so I decided to give a try converting the large sized berdan primed brass into the smaller and more common .217 berdan primer.
I started with some steel cases just to see if what was itching my brain would work and so far am happy with the procedure which is as follows.
I drilled the face of the large primer out using a .209 drill bit trying not to hit the anvil by chucking the case up in a mini metal lathe. I would think that a drill press would be accurate enough for this also but using a hand drill would wander too much. The outer cup of the large primer is still in place just like the boxer conversion in this thread. To remove the flange or remnant of the large primer's face I used a 3/16 inch drill that had the point ground off so just the outer edges of the cutting tip was left. This opened the new primer pocket up just enough so the .217 berdan primer will line up properly. After that the new primer pocket gets cleaned up with a knife blade to remove any burrs or irregularities left from the drilling.
So far I've converted about 50 7.62x54r brass cases. The only drawback is that the .217 primers are recessed by about 15 thousands but test firing them in my 91/30 works fine.
No pictures yet and need to get over to the range with the 10 full powered rounds Which I've loaded using 48 grains of H414 pushing a .311 150 grain J bullet.
More to follow with puctures.

Twmaster

09-23-2016, 03:15 PM

Interesting process. Pics will be nice to see. Thanks! :mrgreen:

Eddie2002

09-25-2016, 04:09 PM

Got out to the reloading bench and took some pictures of the procedure, some are a little blurry but they show the steps for the conversion.177463177469177468 The first picture is of a paper and masking tape sleeve which is used to protect the case from the jaws of the chuck. The top case shows what can happen if the jaws come loose. The sleeve has been marked with an index mark where the tape and paper have been doubled up. If the case is chucked up with a jaw on the thicker section of the sleeve the case will turn out of centric and the primer pocket will be way off. The next two show drilling the face of the larger berdan primer, first pass is with a .209 drill down to where the bit just hits the berdan anvil, the second pass is with a 3/16th drill that has the point ground off so it just cuts the remaining flange or face of the cup left from step one. I run the drill in till it also just barely hits the anvil.The last picture shows some of the coverted cases along with regular boxer primed brass and .217 berdan primed brass. The top row has 4 large to small berdan conversions, two .217 berdan reloads and two boxer primed reloads. The middle row has one large berdan primed brass, one conversion that didn't work and two small berdan cases ready for priming. The bottom row shows a large berdan primed case, the case that has been drill (from the previous pictures) and is ready for the primer hole to be cleaned with a knife tip and two large to small unprimed berdan conversions. 177467

Eddie2002

09-25-2016, 06:52 PM

I would think the same could be done with a drill press as long as the drilling out of the primer face is done carefully. One difference between the boxer and berdan conversion is that the center of the berdan primer gets center punched in for boxers. I tried it and found center punching the berdan primer pushed the face of the primer down onto the anvil. This caused the tip of the drill bit to cut the tip of the anvil out while drilling the face of the primer which made the case useless for the smaller berdan primer but great for a boxer conversion.
My success rate is around 80% with most of the problems occuring early on while I was still fine tuning the procedure and most of the brass I worked with was free. With 7.62x54r steel surplus drying up converting large berdan primed brass over to either boxer or small berdan primers is an option although just going out and buying brass is the best. I would think that this would work for .303 Brit and other berdan primed brass also. One thing I noted, the conversion recesses the smaller berdan primer about 15 to 20 thousands. I'm reloading for a 1942 91/30 which has no problems hitting the primers but some rifles might not have their firing pin go out far enough to set off the primer. I would try one or two conversions before doing a lot. Hope this helped

Twmaster

09-25-2016, 07:32 PM

That's a good way to do that. Looks like a Unimat lathe? I use an ER collet chuck on my little bench lathe so no worry about a 3 jaw damaging the brass.

I'd honestly not trust a drill press to the job. I've never seen (outside of a machine shop) one without too much runout.

dsbock

09-25-2016, 10:38 PM

Mike,

Do you have a source for the collet chuck you use? I've been trying to figure out a way to hold cases in my lathe without damaging them.

Thanks.

David

Twmaster

09-27-2016, 09:14 PM

I made my collet chuck on the lathe.

dsbock

09-29-2016, 01:01 AM

I made my collet chuck on the lathe.

Do you have any pictures or dimensions?

Thanks.

David

nuthershooter

11-19-2016, 09:41 PM

I've developed a slight variation on Larry's method for converting Berdan brass to Boxer. Those who find the other methods too much trouble will like this one even less -- but it seems to give excellent brass in situations where the straight approach doesn't.

A mini lathe is the only practical way to do this method.

I started with a whole bunch of Berdan Yugo brass both 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R. And more time than money.

The 7.62x54 can be done as Larry outlines, using the .217 LR Berdan primer shell as a bushing to hold a Boxer LR primer -- CCI #200. This brass has a crimped primer and I didn't bother swaging; just drilled it with a #2 centerdrill, then #4 twist drill and pressed in the primers using a Lee ram primer. No sign of any issues.

Problems showed up when I tried the 7.62x39 brass. These primers are sealed but NOT crimped. No matter what I did -- slight variations in drill size, swaging/not swaging, etc. -- I could not get a solid bushing. Sometimes the primer shell fell out during the drilling, sometimes it slipped and crumpled under the primer or swage ... it sometimes worked, but mostly didn't.

What has worked well is to drill out the whole works and swage in a brass bushing.

1. Centerdrill #2: This removes most of the primer top and drills a flash hole.

2. Grind an 0.25 counterbore to about 0.248 and fit a pilot drill -- roughly #41, whatever fits -- just barely above the face. Bore to 0.125" depth: Without a digital readout this must be done by feel but it's do-able after a bit of practice. I check each case for depth and discard any over 0.127. Don't try to rechuck to deepen as the hole will nearly always be enlarged and you need a very uniform OD.

The pilot drill is the right size to chamfer the flash hole.

3. Make brass sleeves from 1/4" brass rod. This stuff typically varies +/- 0.001 so buy enough for a whole bunch of cases at one time -- 6' will make close to 300 sleeves. Ideally the bushing OD is larger than your c'bore by 0.002 or 3. Drill #5 for rod closer to 0.251; if you have a good fit with that and then get a smaller dia. piece, you can fudge by drilling #6.

Chamfer the starting end of the bushing slightly with a file to ease starting.

These sleeves must be a press fit: Pushing halfway in with your thumb is okay, so is 'can barely start.'

I made a lathe tool with a 1/8" slot that faces off the far end of the sleeve and also parts it off at the right length. So all the sleeves are exactly the right length.

4. I used the upper part (post) of the RCBS primer pocket swager and the lower part of the Lee ram primer WITHOUT the cup, spring, and supporting post to press the sleeves home in the cases.

5. After pushing sleeves into all the cases I used a Lee collet-type neck resizing die to resize them. To get the most reloads from each case you want to shoot it in the same rifle each time and resize JUST the neck, USING A COLLET rather than a push-it-in-a-die-pull-out-a-ball type. The latter works the brass far more than just using a collet to squeeze the neck on a (slightly undersize) mandrel, so more hardening and cracking will happen sooner.

Lee makes a collet-type die set for 7.62x39 but it's for .308 bullets. If you're shooting a European rifle (CZ, SKS) you probably are using .310 bullets. Lee will make you a custom mandrel for a very reasonable fee; check with them to see how you get the upper bushing it fits through in the die set. An alternative is to buy .303 Brit mandrels -- they come in 3-packs and are about 0.3085 dia. for a bullet of around .3105 -- and make your own custom size using your lathe. In that case you bore out the upper bushing to match your mandrel.

Lee's instructions for this die set have words of wisdom on proper sizing. NOTE: Lee doesn't recommend neck-only resizing for semi-auto rifles -- only for bolt guns.

(Lee does not seem to make a collet die for 7.62x54R but you can rework a 30-06 die to do the job. The collet must be shortened at the bottom, a plug made to take up space above the upper bushing, and the same process of making a mandrel and adapting the upper bushing is needed. Use with the 7.62x54R shell holder, of course.)

6. Use the RCBS primer pocket swager to swage the sleeves.

7. Use the Lee ram primer to insert primers and proceed as normally for primed cases.

I didn't plug the Berdan flash holes: This seems to have no effect on the results. NO signs of excessive pressure (full military loads) and normal MV's. My impression is that this ammo is very accurate (when other factors are correct), just as Lee says for collet-type resizing.

In a few dozen cases the only undesirable result has been a couple where there was a very slight leak around the primer: On close examination I found that these primers had been torn up one side by hanging up when pressed in. I'm now more careful to swage the sleeve to full depth and inspect the primed cases carefully.

This IS a lot of work for the first reload, but if you have a few hundred rounds and you have the time it should yield a lifetime supply of reloadable cases.

Twmaster

11-21-2016, 01:22 AM

Eddie2002

11-27-2016, 12:33 PM

That's a great way to convert berdan brass over to boxer. Not having a military crimp on some of the large berdan primers was always a problem when I tried to convert brass over. I played around with making a reducer bushing out of some hobby store brass tubing but never could get it tight enough in the primer pocket. I was even thinking about soft soldering the bushing in but that could open up a big can of worms if not done right.
Haven't had a chance to get out to the range with the large to small converted berdan 7.62x54r loads yet.

nuthershooter

11-28-2016, 06:51 AM

That's one heck of a write up. Thank you. While I can follow along (I grok all the steps and know how to run a lathe) others may benefit if you were to take some photos next time you convert some cases.

Thanks! I'm sure you're right about pictures helping others and they do make a post more interesting. My thinking was that only someone sufficiently lathe-skilled (and equipped) to work from the description would be able to do this anyway as there are several places requiring some feel for the work, judgment, etc.

Add to that the fact that it's really about the same price as loading from new (Boxer) brass unless you have or get substantial quantities of the Berdan stuff for free and there just aren't going to be very many people who want to do this.

I kind of backed into it myself. I had the lathe etc., and had been buying and shooting milsurp steel case 7.62x54R and 7.62x39. I found that this ammo could be very substantially improved accuracy-wise by pulling it apart and reloading it with decent bullets and precisely weighed charges of the original powder -- still pretty cheap. I didn't even think about re-using the steel cases.

THEN I got some brass cased (Yugo) milsurp of both sizes and for a time shot that, discarding the cases.

But hey -- Could I re-use those beautiful cases? At this point they were basically free. I found this excellent thread and was able to do the 54R stuff using the original primer shell as the bushing. Couldn't make that work for the 39 though, so I started experimenting.

Soldering SHOULD work: Brass loses its temper somewhere north of 500F while eutectic solder melts around 361F -- but temperature control is tough when soldering and I found it impossible to get a really good joint: The old primer still wasn't really retained firmly enough. A potentially dangerous technique that didn't work well ... yeah that's a loser.

I had 1/4" brass rod stock (0.251), bought a 1/4" counterbore, used a Dremel on it while spinning to reduce the dia. to 0.248, and started experimenting. I bought the Lee ram prime, used it to seat the bushings and an RCBS primer pocket swaging tool to swage them. So there's most of $100 in additional tooling.

This process makes no sense unless you have the brass anyway, have the lathe (preferably with a collet system rather than jaw-type chuck), and some experience, and enjoy manufacturing-type operations. To get the best case life you have to set up for neck-only resizing using the Lee collet system; for 7.62x54R you'll have to make your own tool since Lee doesn't. And -- since I figure the complete conversion of a case takes around 10 minutes -- your time can't have a dollar value.

People build model ships in bottles and when they get done they can say "Look -- I built a model ship in a bottle." This makes equally good sense.

However I'll try to get pictures in a future run.

Twmaster

11-28-2016, 06:14 PM

You Sir are preaching to the choir. I have tools and the desire to be able to sit back and marvel at my handi-work.

It just never seems to dawn on some folks that while, yea, I can go buy brass, this, to me, is fun and a pass time.

Thanks for the write-up.

Also as an FYI, I have reloaded steel cases just to see what was involved. Most will pop the primer with water and a close fitting punch. I use a 1/4" driver handle.

I even shot a magazine full of the reloaded steel case over this weekend. My AK seems to like them. Now having proved it works I'll not be doing that again unless we get into a bad ammo situation. Or I get *really* bored.

bkbville

02-06-2017, 04:50 PM

I was using Larry's method, wondering how I was going too keep the cases in a vise and not crush some (most)... I was going to create some mouths out of wooden blocks and came on an idea:

I seat a Lee trim die for the caliber upside down in the press and place the case in it... do the drilling, and remove it by wedging a small blade screw drive under the rim and nudge it up until I can pull it right out of the case.

The cases are well supported and the press isn't going anywhere.

Four Fingers of Death

07-09-2017, 06:37 AM

I have a Steyer95 and a good stock of Nazi 1938 ammo and clips. I have everything to cast and reload apart from brass. It looks like I'll be going down this track as well. I did see on YouTube, the Ammo Channel from memory, the guy drilled the primer pocket out and then swaged a small piece of copper tubing into the new hole, trimmed it on the grinder then re-swaged it. This method looks easier(ish). I will try it first.

Larry Gibson

07-09-2017, 11:28 AM

Four Fingers of Death

07-09-2017, 08:11 PM

199391

As you can see the case on the right is a converted Steyr 95 nazi case. I did a couple hundred for a friend. No problems.

Larry Gibson

It looks like I'd better get the Steyer out and shoot a few rounds and then clear away all of the junk in front of the drill press, haha. Thanks.

Larry Gibson

07-10-2017, 12:37 PM

Any questions about the process don't hesitate to PM. It's actually easier than it looks.

Larry Gibson

Four Fingers of Death

07-12-2017, 09:22 AM

Thanks. I have been reading through the posts and a lot of guys mentioned decapping berdan primers. I saw a couple of methods on Youtube that were very efficient.

One used a block of wood with a hole drilled all of the way through for the primers to escape. Then rim sized hole was drilled for about 1/4" The cases were placed in this during decapping.

The second method just used the shellholder.

Both methods were the same after that. The case was dipped into water filling it, then placed in the block / shellholder and a 1/4" Socket Drive screwdriver thingo was placed in the case neck (reasonable fit) and whacked with a piece of wood, bingo! Primer is out.

Easiest method I have ever seen.

Larry Gibson

07-12-2017, 11:04 AM

Tried the hydraulic method several times......never got too many primers out.......got water everywhere though.......

Then getting the berdan primers of the right size was hit or miss.....needex special seating punches......gave up.......converting to boxer primers is/was a lot easier.

Larry Gibson

jrmartin1964

07-15-2017, 06:00 PM

Looks like I'm gonna have to scrounge up a proper mould to help feed my Steyr M95 in 8x56mmR. I have a sizeable stash of the 1938-dated Berdan stuff, but not having an efficient method for removing and replacing the primers has kept me from firing more than a couple of clips in the 20 or so years I've had the M95. I tried the hydraulic method of removal, but can't call my results anything resembling successful.

Oddly, I bought a set of RCBS dies and a shell holder for 8x56mmR very shortly after I got the rifle. After reading this thread, looks like I'm running out of excuses for not putting them to their intended use!

Four Fingers of Death

07-17-2017, 09:42 AM

looks like I'm running out of excuses for not putting them to their intended use!

You and me both looks like.

AKholicBubba

11-29-2017, 01:15 AM

This was very helpful info

mwells72774

11-29-2017, 09:57 AM

There’s a guy on eBay selling steel sleeves. Took the brass and drilled out the primer pocket to .245 and used a steel rod from a lee loader to set it. Ran through a primer picker uniformer and then with the drill bit from the same person, drilled the flash hole

beechbum444

11-29-2017, 01:48 PM

I tried the water depriming method a few weeks ago and I learned a few things that Id like to share. I took a few bolts that were half threaded and cut the threads off, then I took the ruff edges to a grinder and rounded the edges off to an angle, maybe 30 degrees. As a holder you can use a shell holder or a scrap piece of wood. In my case a scrap piece of 2x8, the bigger base was need as to not fall over when hit with a hammer. I did not mic the bolts, but the bolts that fit very loose, or even slid into the 7.62 x 54r case without any resistance did NOT result in a good deprimed shell on the first strike and sometimes not ever. however the cut bolts that fit very very snug/tight in the top of the 7.62 x 54r case resulted in a hydraulically deprimed case when struck with a hammer...not a claw hammer, a 1 pound hammer. Do not hold the drilled board with the other hand. This is why I used a larger piece of 2x 8 about 6x8 inches in size.........

Twmaster

12-05-2017, 03:49 PM

I've found a driver handle for 1/4" drive sockets fits the neck on 7.62x39 perfectly and works fine for water decapping. I usually just set my case inside a suitably big socket wrench to allow the primer to pass when popped out.

mrrch

12-10-2017, 02:19 PM

I use a 5/16 bolt that has the threads cut off for deprimming 7.5x55 Swiss. I use the deprimmer cup from my 303 Lee loader. Works like a charm. +1 on the bolt sealing tight and a rag wrapped around the brass and your hand saves you from getting a shower. Luckily in Canada we can get berdan primers from time to time.

EnglishTom

03-09-2018, 03:56 AM

Hi Larry, the secret to hydraulic decappers If your using the hammer type is the hammer, you need a heavy dead blow and a sharp strike, been converting 303Brit for years,,, if the primer is the Burdan #126 .250"dia DONT remove the primer but drill/mill a .200" hole in it drill out flash hole then use a primer pocket swage to turn the face of the primer back on itself, the military ring crimp holds the old primer in place and returning the primer face reduces the internal diameter just enough to get a good hold on a Boxer primer,,,,,,,,, This works for any case using the Burdan #126 primer

uscra112

03-09-2018, 05:38 AM

^^^^ Did this successfully with 7,5x55 Swiss to the tune of about 30 cases. Labor intensive, so since Norma had high quality Boxer-prime brass, I bought a batch and quit with the conversion. Keeping the drilling on center required that I start with a #2 center drill, then follow with #8 to clean up the Berdan cup and most of the anvil, finally #50 to drill a central flash hole through. Used my bench lathe.

ravelode

03-18-2018, 05:48 PM

I've always decapped berdan by puttin the case on a bolt closest to the neck size (held in a vice) then tap a #2 nailset (flattened on one side of the tip) into the edge of the primer, pry it out. Easy and quick no mess.

nuthershooter

03-07-2020, 08:41 PM

Too long since I dropped in here ... insert excuses of choice here.

Wandering the bowels of berdan -> boxer conversions the other day looking for something else I tripped over a secondhand mention of a technique that I don't see here: Instead of drilling out the berdan anvil, punch it out from the inside. This wasn't my idea and if I had any clue whose it was, I'd give credit.

My previous conversion method -- used on a few hundred rounds of Yugo 7.62x39 brass -- was to chuck up the fired case in a minilathe using a collet, hit it with a centerdrill (#1 I think) removing the center of the primer, the anvil, and drilling a new flash hole. Then use a 1/4" counterbore ground down to 0.248 bore to a depth of 0.125. Push in and swage a ring with ID to fit an LR primer. I make the rings.

This worked well -- I fired some of those cases 10x (reloading in the usual boxer way) just for kicks and had no problem, tho accuracy wasn't super because I didn't crimp and it's tough to get a tight enough seal to avoid gas leakage in 7.62x39 without a crimp. There were NO problems -- the rings stay in, the primers fit tightly, etc. Loaded ammo looks like it has a crimped primer unless you have better eyes than I.

BUT -- this method is a lot of work, especially because you have to swap tools on each case -- c'drill and c'bore.

The improved method following the idea of 'unknown' was to make a spindle similar to the Lee full length resizing one but with a shoulder at the top so it won't push out and with a hole to accept a cut-off drill shank just larger than the decapper pin on the bottom. This is straight-sided, sized to just fit a fired case.

Set up an 'O' press for max pressure, i.e., near bottom of stroke and just punch out the anvil and (fired!) berdan primer. This is fast -- about like decap/resize. I think you could integrate this with the resize operation but I didn't want to mess with that level of precision before confirming that the basic idea worked on my cases, etc.

I've now counterbored those cases, they look just like the ones using the old technique but this is easier. I'll finish and fire them over the next month or so.

Ammo loaded this way probably isn't benchrest quality because the flash holes are oversize (I don't close the berdan holes ...) and no doubt not perfectly uniform but nobody doing this is looking for that anyway. It was every bit as good as the usual commercial loads.

pakmc

02-03-2021, 06:55 PM

20Nickels,

Depriming is easy: Just fill up the case with water about half way, support the case on some washers or the like so the primer has somewhere to exit and put a well-fitting dowel in the case mouth and give it a whack with a mallet. The hydraulic pressure will push out the primer. You can reprime by pressing the new Berdan primer into the primer pocket (after cutting the military swage) to get it started. Then take a wooden dowel into the mouth of the case with the base and high primer on a piece of pine or soft wood and gently tap the dowel to further seat the primer. The primer will still be a bit high, but at this point the primer will be seated deep enough so that it can be put in a press with a large primer seating tool to finish the seating of the primer.

Larry,

You are truly amazing!

I tried the water meth ed and all I got was wet and a straight wall case. if you can find berdan primers I can show you a way to deprime up to 5 cases a minute . it doesn't matter what the caliber is. 6.5, 7.5, 8mm, 7.62x54r, 8x56R. I was able to find 10,000 berdan primers on Gun broker about 18 years ago and brought them. and you have the tools(or can make them) on your reloading bench. I've let the primers go since them since i'm not shooting big bore any more.
Pat