45-70 question.

[Chris Smith]

I've been reloading my own ammo since I was 12. That's been a while ago. Anyway, I have shot my trapdoor for years with black powder but recently got a Ruger #1, also in 45-70. So now I can pump up the volume a bit and in loading various powders(R7, 4198, 3031) with the 300 grain JHP I notice various amounts of unburned powder in the bore after each shot. The rifle shoots very well but should I be concerned about the unburned powder or just ignore it. I have never noticed it in the smaller bore rifles.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Chris, I have noticed some unburned powder in some loads and with some powders. However, as pressures increasem the amount of unburned powder decreased.

I have hunted with a 45/70 #1, for the last two hunting seasons, and have 3 deer and one elk at this point. All with cast boolits.

I'd sure encourage you to buy cast boolits if your not into casting yourself. There are a number of good boolit makers available.

Just make sure you choose a boolit design with a Wide Flat Nose -WFN - and go with boolits over the 400gr weight.

I know that lots folk use and like the lighter boolits, but during my search for a boolit that would shoot better then my origional 355gr LBT/WFN I found that boolits of over 400gr just tend to shoot better in the 45/70.

I am currently shooting a 465gr WFN, and there is no other word then AWESOME when it comes to taking game with that boolit at 1600 - 1700fps.

Forget hollow points and cast boolits with soft nose for expansion, as you simply have no need for them with the WFN.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[No_1]

3031 & 4198 will get you to the full house level & 400 + grain bullets will never let you down. I shoot 50 grains 3031 under a 420 grain boolit. My #1 has a mercury tube in it which makes it tolerable longer. I have 4 other 45/70's but the #1 is my favorite.

[Chris Smith]

I have a good assortment of molds for the .45 caliber but started on jacketed loads in this rifle since it can handle the hotter loads. I have the Lyman 457193 which drops a 420 grain (or there about) bullet from wheel weights. I generally shoot them unsized in my trapdoor but might actually size them for the Ruger. My favorite for destroying milk jugs and deer shoulder is my Lyman 457122 hollow point. Cast from soft lead it is actually too much when fired at over 1300 fps or there about. I also have a Marlin 1895 that shoots it very well. Although accurate in my trapdoor the 535 grain Postell design has little in the way of expansion unless something hard is hit and the 500 roundnose is about the same. I had never noticed the unburned powder in the Marlin and with black powder in the trapdoor ...well we all know about that. I was just wondering if a bit of filler might clean it up or should I just ignore it. Thanks for the reply!

[NSB]

I get more unburned powder with the lighter bullets and it's more noticable with certain powders. I've found that the heavier actually shoot more accurately than the lighter ones and I've played around with different primers and using fillers. I've found a hotter primer and a pinch of polyester fiber fill will get a better burn. I got most of this from off of here from guys that have been doing this for a lot of years. Some good advice to be gotten off of here. Good luck.

[EDG]

The unburned powder means you have a combination of the following

1. low pressure
2. short barrel
3. light bullet
4.slow powder

[Longwood]

Will a crimp help burn all of the powder with a light bullet?

[StrawHat]

Do you still have the Trapdoor? If so, I'd advise you to keep all loads at the level the TD can handle. Eventually, one of the "Ruger Only" loads will get chambered in the wrong rifle.

[stubshaft]

3031 burned best for me when I loaded it up to around 51.0grs. I have found 2400 to be a very clean burning powder and very accurate in my guns behind a 400 - 425gr boolit.

[myfriendis410]

Two more good powders: Benchmark and IMR4895. I load the latter with a 300 gr. Barnes ('cause I have to). I second heavy bullets.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

AS with most all firearms, they can be a rule unto themselves.

In the powder department, 3031 has to this point not worked well for me.

The problem, -------- the powder column was too high to allow for seating of the 355gr LBT boolit I was using.

Now with the 465gr boolit which has proven to be much better in the consistancy and group department, I have not tried the 3031.

With the lesser amount of powder and lower velocities, it might work OK now.

However, there was just too much powder to allow the boolits to properly seat and when it did, there was damage to the boolit from the pressure needed to attempt to seat the boolit.

H335, although I hear little about it, has at this point been the winner in the consistancy and group department. AS recommended by Bruce - Babore.

Just cast 300+ new 465gr boolits last Saturday, and after I test some of the lubes currently on hand, I will likely give some powders a second chance with the better boolit.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Chris Smith]

After installing a great Burris scope I had I can now shoot the rifle a lot better. I don't see as well as I once did. Anyway, IMR-4198 seems to be a pretty good choice and I got several groups that were around an inch or a bit less at 100 yards(3 shots). I'm kinda sore as I fired 50 rounds and some loads were in the stout category. The unburned powder seems to have no effect on anything.

[hydraulic]

I notice that Midway has jacketed .45-70 bullets on clearance and they only cost about $1.00 apiece. Ye Gods, guys, what kind of money are you making?

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Chris,

Get someone to build you a "sissy bag" or maybe buy one.

My wife made me one, and before that I had for years used a sand bag between me and the butt on anything much bigger then the 243.

Love to shoot and work up loads, but am not and never have been much into pain.

My sissy bag has lead shot front and back and I can have a good long session on the bench with no problems.

I try to just never let a rifle hurt me, and in that way, never have a flinch problem when hunting.

Recall back a lot of years, rushing to get a 300 ready for elk season and shooting a lot of rounds over the top of a rig. I was soooooooo sore from the day after day pounding!

Bench is much better then over the top of a rig, but the sissy bag really helps with the 45/70 and anything else.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Hydraulic,

My thinking exactly!

With good WFN cast boolits being so very [smilie=w: effective on game critters, I could never justify spending that kind of bucks for the jacketed 45/70 bullets.

OUCH!!!!!!!!!

:castmine: Give me cast boolits! :cbpour:

CDOC

[Chris Smith]

When you arent having to answer to a wife it makes things easier. I spend most of my money on guns, boats, hot rods and frozen dinners, the rest I just waste. I have a recoil pad that goes over my shoulder and is pretty effective but I am not a big person so the pounding gets to me a bit quicker than somebody that weighs more. And most of the loads were tested with cast bullets. One which I wont brag about was with the 300 JHP and was quite stunning in performance and mild on my shoulder. When I figure out how to post a picture I'll let it do the talking.

[NSP64]

My 45-70 is a pistol. I like 230 gr boolits over Trailboss. Easy to handle/no pain 1300 fps loads (16gr)

[MtGun44]

Use 10-15 gr of Unique under the light 300 gr boolits and you will get accurate loads
with no unburned powder.

Bill

[Chris Smith]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_171814f45a75704bc3.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4084)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_171814f45a7578cf50.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4085)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_171814f45a7582280b.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4086)

[Chris Smith]

The target on the left is 30 grains of IMR-4198 and a Lyman 420 grain flat nose cast from soft lead and sized .458, lubes with Lyman super moly. Fired at 100 yards. The middle target is 5 shots 25 grains of 5744 with a dacron filler and the Lyman "postell" 535 grain bullet lathe turned to 505 grains with a .350 meplat on the nose. The target on the right is three shots fired at 100 yards, 33.6 grains of IMR-4198 and a Hornady 300 grain JHP. It measures .761 inch. It will be used for all social situations. The rifle has a Burris compact 2-7 x scope and all shots were fired with the scope on 2x. The rifle is 1970 production and has no modifications.

[Ed in North Texas]

Do you still have the Trapdoor? If so, I'd advise you to keep all loads at the level the TD can handle. Eventually, one of the "Ruger Only" loads will get chambered in the wrong rifle.

A suggestion is to use brass cases for the Trapdoor and nickle cases for the No. 1 (or vice versa). Even a color blind person can tell the difference in those cases.

Ed

[RMulhern]

It's amazing to me how anyone can justify using such small loads of smokeless powder in a large case such as the 45/70 with the case possibly not even being half full!!:violin::confused: It's commonly accepted theory and a proven concept that rifle accuracy is greatly enhanced when the powder capacity is such that the base of the bullet is against the powder with no 'slop' in the case!!

But what do I know!!:(:roll::confused:

[frnkeore]

The 45/70 is "A Horse of Different Color" If you use it's case capacity and the pressure range of the powders that will produce the best target accuracy, I don't think that you will want to pull the trigger to many times.

I have a good duplex load that gives about 80% load density and 1400 fps with a 430 gr bullet. I have shoot .60 group at 100 yds (this is a 15 lb target rifle) with it but, it's NOT a single powder. the national CBA record for 45/70 Trap doors, I believe is 13 gr of Unique and about 1200 fps. A good friend is getting good groups with 12.0 gr of Unique. My best Unique load was 10.0 gr Unique, the group was .84 @ 100. BTW, my loads werte all breech seated.

I don't think that anyone will find a single powder 80%+ density load that will be of low enough recoil to shoot groups with.

Frank

[EDG]

It's amazing to me how anyone can justify using such small loads of smokeless powder in a large case such as the 45/70 with the case possibly not even being half full!!:violin::confused: It's commonly accepted theory and a proven concept that rifle accuracy is greatly enhanced when the powder capacity is such that the base of the bullet is against the powder with no 'slop' in the case!!

But what do I know!!:(:roll::confused:

Justify?
With faster burning powder this is common practice especially with handguns. Check your manual and see how much space a 2.8 gr load of Bullseye takes up in a 38 Special.
The challenge is to avoid a double or triple charge.
Otherwise the loads work ok given some natural Darwin tendencies.
The load I use with 300grn gas check bullets is 13 gr of Unique. I triple check each batch with a flash light to make sure there are no over charges. I have burned up over two pounds of Unique like this in the last few years.

[725]

I use 40 gr of 3031 or 30 gr of 4198. Out of several guns, the 100 yard groups are usually a tight cluster and sometimes a big raged hole. The 'ol BP case doesn't seem to need high density to give good accuracy. Nothing has ever taken too many steps after catching one of the 420 gr cast boolits. My friends call it the "Matrix" load -- just seems to turn off the life force.

[Chris Smith]

Let me see if I got Mulherns comment straight here. He indicates that I'm not loading the case full enough to get GOOD accuracy. It is greatly enhanced by a full case of powder that is against the base of the bullet. HHMMMMM, so if I get a three shot group that is .761 thousands of an inch at 100 yards with just 33.6 grains of powder then just exactly how much more accurate will this thing shoot if I put more in it?????? I could just about compete in a benchrest match as it is. That said I may not be able to get a group like that again but I did this time.

[StrawHat]

Let me see if I got Mulherns comment straight here. He indicates that I'm not loading the case full enough to get GOOD accuracy. It is greatly enhanced by a full case of powder that is against the base of the bullet. HHMMMMM, so if I get a three shot group that is .761 thousands of an inch at 100 yards with just 33.6 grains of powder then just exactly how much more accurate will this thing shoot if I put more in it?????? I could just about compete in a benchrest match as it is. That said I may not be able to get a group like that again but I did this time.

Not trying to answer for RMulhern, he is a much better shooter and loader than I am. My experience is that denser loadings tend to be more consistant. If you can't repeat the groups, what good are they? I am more than happy with 3MOA load from a hunting rifle if I know it will group within 3 MOA each and everytime it is shot, rather than a load that will sometimes group in 1" and other times group in 12. Consistancy is more important to me than bragging groups.

[StrawHat]

A suggestion is to use brass cases for the Trapdoor and nickle cases for the No. 1 (or vice versa). Even a color blind person can tell the difference in those cases.

Ed

Good luck with whatever system you use. It only takes one to cause problems.

[gon2shoot]

:roll: Well now you have the definitive answer on the 45-70 lol.

I like cast boolits in the 1300/1500 fps range with a 400gr+ boolit in my 45-70s. Not too bone jarring to shoot, and stout enough to get done what I want,
I get a small amount of unburnt powder with some loads, but if they do what I want, I dont care.

Pick one that shoots well and enjoy.

[Ed in North Texas]

Good luck with whatever system you use. It only takes one to cause problems.

OK. To belabor the obvious, a person can:

1. Sell the different firearm; or,

2. Try your best to do something which differentiates between the different pressure level loads; or,

3. Don't do anything (accepting the potential risk to you and others).

As you don't appear to like #2, are you pointing out that no system is totally foolproof (which is really pushing the obvious)?

I'm #2. In the not terribly distant future, when my kids inherit my firearms, there will be marked boxes showing the load and the intended firearm, and different cases too. Maybe at that time the .45-70s will be separated, eliminating this particular problem.

Ed