Fluxing Question

[sharpshooter81]

Ok I have just recently got into bullet casting.....I havent actually cast any bullets yet, but I have got some gear together for the initial melting of wheel weights.....I got 3 buckets of wheel weights (all seperated), a Coleman stove, and a cast fry pan for smelting. I usually crank the stove up and and melt WW one handful at a time until the pan is 1/2 to 3/4 full. At this point I skim the top again and toss in a good size piece of candle wax to flux. It starts white smoking like crazy, then self ignites....I let it burn down till i goes out, then I skim the top, and pour into my ingot mould. My mould makes two 2.5lb bricks. Is this enough flux for an initial melting? My ingots look good and "clean", with no junk in them. Should I re-melt my ingots later on and flux some more or can I do more fluxing while I cast? Thanks for the help!!

http://<a href='http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3925' border=0><img src='http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_226214f39964257895.jpg'></a>

[Moonman]

Sawdust for FLUXING IS BEST. Not from PLYWOOD OR TREATED LUMBER though.

When it burns, you begin sturring into the mix vigorously.

Look at our sponsor PAT MARLIN for CALIFORNIA FLAKE FLUX (CFF), He's been sick lately though.

[454PB]

Usually wheel weights are coated with grease and oil when you get them, which serves as a flux for smelting. Adding a candle or even some crankcase drainings certainly does no harm (other than ticking off you neighbors).

I flux before casting. I use Marvelux because I cast indoors in my heated shop and Marvelux is "smokeless", but most of the guys on this forum hate the stuff.

At one time or another, I've used about everything you'll see suggested here for fluxing. I've found nothing yet that is enough better than Marvelux to make me put up with a smoke filled casting area.

[ku4hx]

Since I smelt outside, I couldn't care less about smoke but I don't get a whole lot even with nasty greasy WWs. I generally smelt in 25-30 pound batches and after removing the steel clips I generally use a piece of bee's wax about the size of a blackeyed pea. I often stir that good with my Hickory stirring stick and mix the alloy with my ladle to move the mass bottom to top. I then skim off the dross and repeat. Usually doing this twice is plenty; may even be overkill. I use bee's wax because I came by a large quantity of it several years ago.

You can use whatever fluxing material you wish and what works for you. After a time you'll discover what's too much or too little but it seems natural to me to start with a small amount and work up to a larger amount.

[snuffy]

Tossing the wax onto the molten lead, then letting it burn off, is NOT enough. To do it properly, you should be stirring WHILE it's still burning, and after the flames go out. The idea is to get the carbon in the wax mixed into the molten lead, so it can reduce the oxidized lead/tin/antimony back into a metallic state. It also cleans the lead off the steel clips, you get to reclaim all of it.

[popper]

Just put in a bunch, let it melt, skim off odd parts only then use sawdust to flux. Stir the top of the pot when fluxing, let the sawdust set a while after it stops burning. Skim the sawdust off before pouring ingots. If you bottom pour cast, you can flux again with the sawdust, but skim it before adding more ingots - the sawdust can clog your spout. If ladle casting, flux and skim then cast. If your pot is big enough you could leave the sawdust on top and just make a clean area with the ladle. I've had good luck with lever powder and CB in the 30-30. What mold are you using?

[sharpshooter81]

I am going to be casting for my 45/70 (459-405gr-HB) and also for my 30-30. The 45/70 mould is already ordered, but I havent even looked into the 30-30 yet.....dont even know what sizes are good etc. Any suggestions?

[popper]

RD by Lee - 6 hole 3x3. 170 GC, 182 PB using 50/50 #2 and pure ~10 BHN, mould drops at .312 - .313. I tested the RD (carolina bullets) and LazerCast designs in my 336, RD won. He has regular and Marlin designs, mine takes the Marlin design, the other has to be seated deep to fit.

[cbrick]

sharpshooter81, welcome to CastBoolits,

At least once a week I post this same thing. Here is the metallurgy of flux, waxes and oils will reduce (return to the melt) the tin in your alloy, this is a good thing. Waxes and oils will not, cannot remove any impurities from the melt such as aluminum etc. Yes, such things are in WW alloy and other scrap alloys. Commercial flux such as Marvacrap is highly hydroscopic (can be extremely dngerous), does not reduce tin but rather removes it along with other components of the alloy and will horribly gunk up your casting pot and tools.

Here is a free pdf book on casting, chapter 4 explains fluxing in easy to understand language including what works, what doesn't and why.

From Ingot To Target (http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf)

Hope this helps, good luck.

Rick

[geargnasher]

Thanks for taking it this time, Rick, I passed earlier 'cuz I'm getting burned out on the routine!

Gear

[sharpshooter81]

When I posted the original question, I did not do so looking for rude comments "geargnasher".....I did not join this forum because I am an experienced caster or reloader, I joined because I want to read and learn from people with more experience than me, IMO, if you do not want to help educate the people asking questions, than you should keep your remarks to yourself. The obvious here is that I have never heard of, or read "from ingot to target", if I HAD, my original post wouldn't be here for more newbies to enjoy later down the road. Thanks CBRICK for the link, much appreciated....As far as I know, there is no instruction here to read every post on the forum, then if you dont find your answer, go ahead and post a question. Just my 2 cents...

[geargnasher]

Sharpshooter, look around the forum a little bit. If you're new to the forum and to casting, take time to read a bit from each section of the forum and you'll see that questions like yours, which are good ones and every beginner has, are asked almost daily, with pages and pages of good answers. We're glad to help any time you don't find the answer you're looking for, but I think I can speak for a lot of us in saying that you make yourself easier to help when you do a little homework. I'm mentioning all this because you're going to have lots more questions like "Why are my boolits wrinkled?" "what's the best alloy?", what's the best lube?", "do I need to size my boolits?", "why is my gun leading?" etc. and you can save yourself lots of headaches before they happen just by doing a little reading.

Also, we have a search function that, though primitive, can sometimes be helpful too. This search in the search bar for "sawdust + flux" and you'll see what I mean.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/search.php?searchid=3852996

Gear

[snuffy]

When I posted the original question, I did not do so looking for rude comments "geargnasher".....I did not join this forum because I am an experienced caster or reloader, I joined because I want to read and learn from people with more experience than me, IMO, if you do not want to help educate the people asking questions, than you should keep your remarks to yourself.

Wow, that's a good way to get on some peoples "ignor list".!

If you decide to stick around this forum, you'll find that gear's knowledge and willingness to help out is vast.

You'd better settle down, do a bunch of reading here, then when you do ask more questions, do so with an open mind. Save the thin skin for some touchy feely forum on growing flowers or some such PC pursuit.

[sharpshooter81]

His vast willingness to help out def wasnt excercised in this reply. Basically what im getting at here is....if you wanna help, great! thats what I posted here for is HELP....If you dont, then dont reply at all....I really appreciate all the people who have replied with great info and tips, its hard being a newbie, alot of stuff to take in at one time, im sure you were all in the same boat at one point.....nothing against anybody just wish the replies were a bit more "open minded"

[cbrick]

sharpshooter81,

Click on Gear's name and then click on some of his nearly 7,500 posts in less than three years. Read the detail and in depth description of most of his posts. Perhaps you'll see things in a different light.

Your question was a good one and has been answered; let's not see this thread deteriorate to where it shouldn't be, there is no need for that.

Rick

[sharpshooter81]

agreed

[sharpshooter81]

if i knew as much as gear I wouldnt need to post flux questions lol....im a close second to gear tho i got 20 posts lol

[JIMinPHX]

Be careful not to throw damp material (like ww) into the pot of liquid lead or else you might get an unpleasant visit from the "tinsel fairy" & some nasty burns to go with it.

As others have said, stir while the flux is still burning. Also, it sounds like you might be using a larger than normal chuck of wax. A piece the size of a pea is about what most people use. Too much of it can make for overly exciting flames. It's usually best to use a small amount & then flux a second time if the first little chunk doesn't get the melt clean enough.

That's my experience anyway.

Regards,
Jim

[mpmarty]

I just heap Jims flake flux on top of the pot when I turn it on. Stir with a stick when it starts smoking and use a ladle to force some of the carbon down into the melt as I stir with the ladle. Then I leave the ash on top of the melt as I bottom pour. Cast 200 Ranch Dog 350gr .460s this afternoon. No drips from my LEE 4-20 (yet).

[soldierbilly1]

Cbrick:
thanks for posting the hot link on "ingot to target." very informative.
I read most of it; I upgraded myself from low level intermediate to mid level intermediate!
again, thanks
Bill boy

[sharpshooter81]

So fat to date, I have used quite a large piece of wax, and when tossed in it self ignites and burns down.....I tried using a smaller piece but it would not self ignite, so im guessing this means I have to light the pot myself?.....next time maybe i will try the sawdust thing....

[geargnasher]

Whenever I choose to use a grease/wax/oil product in addition to sawdust/wood shavings I always light the fumes with a BBQ grill lighter ASAP to avoid the "POOF" factor which can be tough on eyebrows, ear hair, and nerves. The subject reminds me of a Patrick McManus story involving boyhood curiosity, black powder, and a bicycle seat.

Read the that chapter 4 in the link Rick posted, it gives a very good explanation of the process and what to use. You'll also learn the differences between "fluxing" and "reducing".

I'd also like to add a few things to all the great information in Glen Fryxell's article that I've learned since he first published it. To further increase the effectiveness of sawdust in chemically "reducing" large amounts of metal oxides in, for example, a very dirty smelt of heavily oxidized scrap, create a fire on top of the metal by adding a grease/wax/oil/rosin etc. and lighting it to create carbon monoxide gas. I prefer diesel fuel or charcoal lighter fluid. One of the final stages of industial smelting of Galena involves flooding the smelt with "flue gas" containing large quantities of carbon monoxide gas to convert (through the reduction/oxidation reaction) lead oxide to elemental lead and carbon dioxide. Carbon monoxide is highly reactive and adds an extra dimension to the redox reaction when smelting. You still want to use lots of sawdust and stir/fold the metal into it over and over again to get as much of the molten alloy exposed to the charring sawdust as possible to remove things we boolit casters consider impurities to in the metal, and to preserve the things we want to keep. Any fire you create on top of the sawdust/metal mix will be starved for oxygen at the metal's surface due to the nature of being in a pot with sides, and the dull orange, smokey flame is a sure sign of an atmosphere ripe for creating lots of carbon monoxide that's good for our boolit metal.

As far as your casting pot or furnace goes, you will be best served putting clean ingots in there and likely won't need such extreme measures to clean your alloy. A 1/4" layer of sawdust on top should be all you need to reduce the oxides floating on top from your melted ingots and from the melting process and to protect the surface from further oxidation. If you ladle pour, you might want to skim the sawdust off before casting if it causes problems, but some people leave it in there and dip through it.

Fryxell also mentions the vapor pressure of arsenic and how it easily gases-off from a smelt of metal containing it. Arsenic is a grain refiner present in most wheel weight metal and some lead shot, and is a valuble trace metal we want to preserve because it makes the metal more castable (like tin, but different mechanism) and allows better heat treating of the alloy. Sawdust helps preserve arsenic by constantly reducing any oxidized metal and preventing further oxidation by capping the melt and sealing it from the oxygen in the air.

Between Fryxell's article and some of these tidbits you ought to have a pretty thorough understanding of what you need to do, and exactly why, so you can develop a specific process of your own that fits your needs, type of scrap you're dealing with, your location and facilites, and what tools you have on hand.

Let us know how your next smelting or casting session goes, and like Moonman mentioned, avoid any sawdust containing plywood or treated lumber dust. Bad stuff. Chainsaw or planer debitage is ideal, if you don't have a good source, pencil shavings will work or hit up your local cabinet or furniture shop for a coffee can full of hardwood shaper or planer shavings.

Gear