Newb ?: 158SWCBB in .357 Max

[mx5tc]

I've been lurking on this site while trying to absorb the wealth of information contained in "From Ingot to Target". I've shot thousands of swaged (.357 HBWC) and commercial cast boolits (.357 and .429 SWCBB) out of my revolvers in the past but never really understood the complexities of balancing hardness, size, profile and lubricant of a lead boolit to match a specific weapon and velocity range. Through trial and error, I did learn that some revolvers shot a little better with swaged HBWC and others did better with "hard" cast DEWC (750-800fps target loads). I loaded the "hard" cast SWCBBs (.357 and .429) in the low to middle range for magnum loads in the Speer and Accurate manuals and never had any leading or accuracy problems.

I've acquired a .357 Max barrel for my TC Contender. I currently have over 1,000 Magnus 158gr .357 SWCBBs. I know the Magnus bullets aren't the best choice for the Contender barrel (bevel base, no gas check, hard commercial lube) but I'm going to need some range time and rounds with this barrel to learn the caliber and I'd rather learn with "on hand" boolits than "have to buy" boolits.

Magnus advertises their hard cast bullets as 16-20 BHN and "Ingot to Target" notes (pg 34) that .454 Casull loads (1,400-1,800fps, 50,000 psi) require 16 + BHN. I know that cast boolit limits are determined by a combination of chamber pressure and bullet velocity. SAAMI specs for .357 Max appear be be 40,000 and my reloading manuals show a lot of 14" TC loads with 158gr bullets exceeding 2,100fps with 158gr FMJ bullets. I've never shot a cast boolit at .357 Max velocity and I'm a little concerned about the bevel base and lack of gas check on the Magnus boolits.

Should I start out with the minimum loads listed 158gr .357 FMJs/ or I need to reduce those loads to be safe with a hard cast boolit???

Thanks in advance,

Mitch

[stubshaft]

Even with 14.0 of 2400 your going to get velocities of 1500+ which I don't think those boolits will perform at without turning your barrel into a lead plated mess. Yes, you can probably extrapolate a load that will give you a velocity that the boolits can perform at but you would learn nothing as it is not within the range that the maxi was designed to perform at.

You have a number of items going against you at this point. The first and foremost is that you do not know what the barrel slugs at. What is the actual diameter of the boolits? Will the lube stand up?

If the barrel is a T/C manufactured one then you also have a very long throat rather resembling a choke than a true throat. Which is not insurmountable but make it a little more difficult to get accuracy from with a cast 158.

I used the maxi as my primary production gun in silly wett competition and it garnered me many State Championships. It can be a relatively low recoiling (comparatively) round with very good accuracy. My favorite boolits were in the 180 - 200gr region, with 180's for hunting and 200's for competition.

All I can say is to try it out. I may be proven wrong and those boolits may shoot okay. Although my experience with Magnus 158's as limited as it is couldn't get them up to magnum velocities in any of my 357's let alone maxi speeds.

Good Luck.

[mx5tc]

Stubshaft,

Thanks for the feedback. The barrel is 14" TC model that was originally chambered in .357 Mag. Mike Bellm re-chambered it to .357 max (his process removes all but .1" of the OEM TC loose forcing cone) and also recrowned the muzzle. Belm suggests using .357 jacketed bullets and .358 cast boolits with these barrels. I just re-checked the Magnus site and discovered the 158gr SWBB are .357 diameter. I'm guessing the combination of the undersize bullet (.357 vs. .358), the bevel base and the lack of gas check explains why you couldn't get them up to magnum velocities. I don't think I'll waste my time experimenting with these bullets, I want a boolit that I can shoot at .357 Max velocity.

Do you have any suggestions for 158 or 180 boolits (PB or GC) that I can start with? I've got some 158gr jacketed bullets I can start with until I can source some boolits. If you are a fan of the .357 Max, you might be interested in some of the load development work done by David White:

http://www.dandtcustomgunworks.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=5264779&trail=15

Thanks,

Mitch

[Ole]

I use (and really like) the 190 grain Ranch Dog bullet with a stiff charge of H110 in my 357 Max TC, but it's a factory chambering, so the throat is probably different.

I haven't encountered any problems with leading, but this particular bullet is a gas check design, and I water drop wheel weights and pure lead (50:50). My bullets typically run 16-18 BHN.

[stubshaft]

Alot of guys shot the 180 RCBS for competition and hunting. I used Verals (LBT) 180 FN for hunting and it was the cats a$$. I used the SSK designed 200gr TC made by Walt at NEI for silly wett. Usual lube was LBT Blue Soft (not too many selections back then but it still is an excellent choice). Powder was 296 or 680 lit by a small rifle primer.

The 180 will probably give you the best latitude as you can still get decent velocity out of a mag with it. I like the 200's because it shoots great out of my 1894C Marlin too.

I'm glad you decided to get a boolit that will let you experiment with the Maxi in a manner that it was supposed to be shot at.

Good luck

[williamwaco]

I load the Lee 358-158-SWC tumble lube to 1450 ( actual chronographed ) In my TC. Lube it with LLA and it is superbly accurate at 50 yards. 1" +/- groups. The same load does 1650 from my Winchester 1892.

There is ZERO leading with either.

To see what Imean by ZERO leading see:

http://www.reloadingtips.com/pages/index-leading_problems.htm

Oh, forgot 100% air cooled wheel weights.

[runfiverun]

i'll be somewhat following this thread.
my 357 max load is with a 250 gr boolit for the 358 winchester and a powder there ain't a book load for.
so i'll not post it.
i have a 180 gr plain base silhouette shaped boolit mold around here somewhere.

[ku4hx]

I load the Lee 358-158-SWC tumble lube to 1450 ( actual chronographed ) In my TC. Lube it with LLA and it is superbly accurate at 50 yards. 1" +/- groups. The same load does 1650 from my Winchester 1892.

There is ZERO leading with either.

To see what Imean by ZERO leading see:

http://www.reloadingtips.com/pages/index-leading_problems.htm

Oh, forgot 100% air cooled wheel weights.

+1 My favorite load for my 6" barrel Ruger Blackhawk is a 158 grain plain base SWC boolit at 1,490 fps (PACT chrono) using Bluedot. Current alloy is hard ball; previously Lyman #2 (original) and I get no leading.

[mx5tc]

William & ku4hx, thanks for the suggestion on the Lee 358-158-SWC tumble lube boolit. Does that boolit cast to a full .358 using hardball or Lyman #2?? I can't tell by looking at the picture in the Midway catalog; does it have a bevel base? Once I use up my current supply of Magnus .357 158 SWC, I'll proably make this my standard .38 Spl and .357 Mag bullet.

Have either of you used the Lee 358 158 SWC GC? I realize that design is not tumble lube, but I suspect I am going to need to go to a gas check .358 boolit to achieve 2,000+fps velocity without leading.

[runfiverun]

you will.
the best i have been able to push a plain based boolit and hold accuracy has been in the 1700fps range.

[DragoonDrake]

I have a factory TC 357 max barrel 10'' that I am using for silhouette right now. I have had no luck with those short little bullets. Look into 200 gr bullets, I am using GC YMMV, and start with 13 grs of 2400. I use a small rifle primer and ended up liking right around 14.5grs of 2400. I don't have a chrony but I can tell you that load takes rams right down, right now.

Good luck and the Max is an addiction.

[mx5tc]

you will.
the best i have been able to push a plain based boolit and hold accuracy has been in the 1700fps range.


Wow, 1,700fps with a PB boolit! I'll be happy when I learn how to cast a PB boolit that I can use acurrately @ 1,400fps.

[mx5tc]

I have a factory TC 357 max barrel 10'' that I am using for silhouette right now. I have had no luck with those short little bullets. Look into 200 gr bullets, I am using GC YMMV, and start with 13 grs of 2400. I use a small rifle primer and ended up liking right around 14.5grs of 2400. I don't have a chrony but I can tell you that load takes rams right down, right now.

Good luck and the Max is an addiction.

Dragoon,

Did you have accuracy problems with the 158s or were they accurate but too light to knock down the rams? I'm not aware of any place in my area where I can shoot silhouette so I'm don't currently need the knockdown power of the big 180 and 200gr boolits. I haven't shot my Max yet; I'm looking forward to improved accuracy, speed and less recoil over the 14" .44 Mag TC barrel I've shot in the past (hard recoil with full house 240gr loads and lousy accuracy thanks to the "no throat" TC chamber).

[runfiverun]

it's not all in the boolit.
matching powder speed [gas volumn] to bbl length has a lot to do with it.
it was using a couple of 20 & 24" bbl's the gas pressure has dropped way off by the time the boolit gets near the muzzle.

[DragoonDrake]

I actually had accuracy issues. I tried pushing the 158's fast slow, seated out, seated in; I was ready to pull my hair out. Tom at AccurateMolds worked with me and had me seat a 215gr SWC backwards and take that measurement to see how long the leade was (sp? and correct me if I am not using the right term). I don't think that .450'' jump is helping anything.

RunFive, I completely agree with you. You need to match bullet and powder to your barrel.

[uscra112]

I've found that switching back and forth from lead to J-warts in my Max is a PITA. I shoot 180 grain JHP for hunting, but when I wanted to use boolits for cheap shooting I had to clean-clean-clean to get the barrel copper-free. Once I was there, no leading with 16 grains of AA#9 and a commercial hard-cast 158 gr. BBSWC. Wasn't as accurate as j-warts, though. I quit with that and now only shoot j-warts in my Max barrel. My throat is somewhat like Bellms, but I had Dave Manson grind my reamer with a much shorter parallel section. Since I was starting with a .38 Special barrel, I did not need the long throat to clean up a SAAMI .357 Mag chamber.

I remember when I was first trying cast boolits I was shooting the same 158 gr. hard cast commercials from a Marlin 336 Microgroove .35 Rem. The best accuracy came at a chronographed 1800 fps. using XMP5744 (the real thing - that's how long ago it was. . .)

[mx5tc]

I actually had accuracy issues. I tried pushing the 158's fast slow, seated out, seated in; I was ready to pull my hair out. Tom at AccurateMolds worked with me and had me seat a 215gr SWC backwards and take that measurement to see how long the leade was (sp? and correct me if I am not using the right term). I don't think that .450'' jump is helping anything.

Dragoon,

I suspect the problem you have with the short boolits is similar to that depicted in the link below:

http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=120

In addition to the long leade that the bullet has to jump to hit the rifling, the TC forcing cone is much larger than the shank of the boolit and doesn't center it in the bore (FWIW, TC .357 chambers are also often not concentric with the bore). I suspect your .357 Max barrel would do fairly well with 180-200gr J-warts seated out close to the lands.

I haven't done a chamber cast of my barrel yet, but I suspect I will be able to shoot both short 158gr boolits and J-warts fairly well based on the experiences of others with Bellm re-chambered barrels.

[DragoonDrake]

Thank you MX5TC.

I had not seen that before and that would explain why the longer bullets do well for me. I guess we are talking apples and oranges.

Good luck we your barrel.

[mx5tc]

Thanks Dragoon! I learned from this site that I need to slug the barrel before I try shooting any boolits from it...I suspect a lot of my past leading and accuracy "problems" with commercial cast bullets (both .357 and .430) were a result of my failure to properly match boolit diameter to the actual groove size of the barrel I'm using.

[DragoonDrake]

I remember learning that lesson. Mine was with a 45 colt and .451 dia bullets.