How to set a Foster slug

[Chicken Thief]

Just cast some Foster slugs and i am at a loss now!
The slug is smaller than my cases and rattle right down on the powder, how can i hold it in place?
I intend to load it as a normal rifle boolit ie. set at the neck and air above the powder.
That way i can get plenty of power/powder and still stay under 1000bar.

[Blammer]

use a shotcup

[Chicken Thief]

And the shotcup will fill the airspace!
As i said, i would like to load it as a rifle cartridge with the boolit fixed at the front, because that is what it is.

I have a mossberg 590 with a rifled barrel and i want to shoot full power loads with 700-850 grain boolits. So i have to have airspace to reduce peak pressure to under 1000bar.
I have experimented a lot with QL and found something to work with.

But in essence:
How do i fixate the boolit at the front of a plastic hull, so it will hold up to abuse in a pump?

[excess650]

They are intended to be loaded into a shotshell wad normall used for shot, or on top of a wad column of nitro card(s) and cusion wad. They CANNOT be loaded directly on the powder.

[stubshaft]

They are intended to be loaded into a shotshell wad normall used for shot, or on top of a wad column of nitro card(s) and cusion wad. They CANNOT be loaded directly on the powder.


He doesn't want it on the powder but wants only the powder with the slug affixed to the front of the shell.

It would appear to be a great recipe for a SEE.

[excess650]

To start with, foster slugs are hollow based and UNDERSIZED so as to be able to compress and be shot through a lightly choked barrel. They are meant to fly from a smoothbore as a shuttlcock flys, think of a rock in a sock.

If you want full diameter to shoot through a rifled barrel, buy a NEI .534-570 mold or one of Accurate Molds designs starting at 700gr. Too, you'll have to support it with nitro cards or something to make a wad column so as to have NO airspace.

Another option would be to shoot .690" or slightly smaller in plastic shotcups to act as sabots.

My Lee 20# is heating up as I type this, and I expect to cast both 0 buck and .690 roundballs this evening.

[Chicken Thief]

First of let me clear some things for you:

1) I have modified the mould so it casts a 690gr massive slug measuring .735"
2) I have loaded cartridges with airspace in them since the mid '80's
3) I have tinkered a lot with QuickLoad to get a starting load with airspace.

So i do not think this slug is undersize at .735"
I do not think that a SEE is an issue as i am using fast rifle powder

I have not been able to find a load that will stay below 1000bar and give 1600 fps with a 700-850gr boolit without having airspace, but please do enlighten me with loads if you insist with the 0 airspace trend.

What i want is a rifle cartridge with a plastic hull. I want my damn airspace as all of you want airspace in reduced loads too. but i think i have an idea. I will spill if it is fruitfull.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0010826.jpg

[Greg5278]

If you want to keep the powder in place, use Cork filler wads, or Wool filler. I use regular hulls, gas seals, and filler cards. I also use a Roll crimp, and have no trouble. That is the easy way. dependin opn the volume of powder, and type you could have erratic ballistics with the powder space, when the gun is horizontal. You are looking for too much velocity with the weight slugs that you specify. You will only be able to achieve 1500 FPS, and that will me at maximum pressure. The 590 is not intended for more than standard pressure.
Greg

[Chicken Thief]

And i asure you that i can get much higher speed vise.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/slug.jpg

But i might end up with a coiled up piece of cardboard.

[Firebricker]

CT, I think it was youtube were I saw a guy making .410 ammo like you are doing. I'm interested in how this turns out. FB

[excess650]

I see that your mould has been modified so that it is no longer a "Foster type". :roll:The Foster type has a hollow base, and is undersize enough to be shot through a moderately choked barrel. You have a completely different animal in that it is a solid base, groove diameter slug that is 225gr heavier than what you initially inquired about.

I cannot think of a way to provide enough neck tension to retain the boolit from moving whether from recoil or just working through a magazine and action.:violin: It might work OK from a singleshot.

What you need is to sleeve your cases on the inside so that the slug can become trapped between the sleeve and either a roll crimp or fold crimp. The sleeve could be as simple as a portion of a 16ga hull inserted inside the 12ga hull. It will reduce case capacity some, but might allow your experiment a chance of succeeding in anything but a singleshot.:popcorn:

[MBTcustom]

I get what you are trying to do with this. Have you considered paper patching that lead? Its an amazingly effective way to add a few thousandths to your boolit diameter, and its pretty easy to patch up a bigger size boolit.

[excess650]

He is already several thousandths over groove diameter.

[MBTcustom]

Ummm, so? a soft lead boolit paper patched should be fine, I missed the part where he gave the groove diameter of his shotgun, all he said was that he was not oversize on the diameter of his slugs so I take him at his word. Paper patch would work to put some pressure on the hull and give it a little "stay hear darn it".
However, my question for the O.P. is why do you want to keep the shells so long? If t'were me I would seat the boolits all the way down and cut the shell off short, that way you can stuff 14 of
'em in your gun and slay them zombies. Just a thought.
Also, you might see if you can use hot-melt glue to your advantage in this situation.
Just be careful OK?
P.S. I just had a thought! You should change shells! Go with a remington STS or Nitro Gold. They have a thicker wall than any other shell. I was trying to load .735 RB in them and having some trouble because when I would run it up into the crimp die, It would leave a ring around the hull where the perimeter of the ball was. Also, I had to press the balls into the hull with the powder drop tube just to get them in there. There is a ton of reloading data on hodgdons website for that hull also.

[excess650]

He's in Denmark so may not have access to thicker hulls. .735" is tight in WW AAs as I've shot full diameter boolits (not roundballs) from them. Recoil at 1600fps is going to be BRUTAL!

[Chicken Thief]

Thanks for all the input guys!

I have converted a 50 BMG case this afternoon and that seems to do the trick. Way much work but they will be indestructiable at theese low pressures.

A major problem with "just" setting the boolit on the powder or a wad on top of the powder or what not that'll steal airspace is, that pressure will spike brutally.

Anybody load a 38SPL with a smidgon of fast powder?
Good burn, low pressure and all is fine if the boolit is set right. Seat that boolit anywhere near the powder at the drum/frame will burst from sky high pressure.

What i'm doing is no different, only in a bigger cartridge.

So in short i need that friggin airspace, unfortunatly:???:

Here's my test 50 BMG to 12 gauge shell:

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0010829.jpg

Nice tight neck and it cycles perfectly in my Mossberg pump.

[Chicken Thief]

As for the Foster thing:

It is a mould given to me and i have only found out about the diameter enlargement / grease grooves added, after i started this thread.
I honestly thought it was a borerider design with hollow base originally from Lyman!!!
The altered bottom plug though is of my own design to make it like a true rifle projectile.

[excess650]

I was going to suggest turned brass cases, but you stated that you wanted to use plastic cases.

My suggestion to use a 16ga plastic hull inside a 12ga was to create a shoulder on which to support your boolit and allow you to fold crimp over top.

It looks like you went to a lot of effort to solve your problem, and I hope it works for you.

[Chicken Thief]

Hey excess650,

Dont want to, but it seems that i have to.
Then again it's time spent on my hobby so no time is wasted :)
One a day followed by a beer makes the "work" a joyhttp://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Blandet/Smilere/Porterdrinker.gif

[excess650]

Hey excess650,

Dont want to, but it seems that i have to.
Then again it's time spent on my hobby so no time is wasted :)
One a day followed by a beer makes the "work" a joyhttp://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Blandet/Smilere/Porterdrinker.gif

:drinks::bigsmyl2:

[longbow]

Chicken Thief:

Maybe a bit of a deviation but have you considered a Paradox type slug?

Here are some examples:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=789929

Post #3.

Ross Seyfried used a similar slug of 750 grs. over 21 grs. Unique in an old Paradox gun. They crimp in the large groove using paper or plastic hulls like this:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=18022

Second post has a photo.

I think Ross used fillers but with Unique an airspace shouldn't hurt and would lower pressure somewhat.

Of course you would need a new mould but CBE apparently makes them.

Just a thought.

Longbow

[grendelbane]

Do a search for posts by hubel458 and his 12 gauge FH.

He seems to have done some work along the lines you have described.

[Greg5278]

I think you are a bit high pressure range. The 590 was not intented for such pressure. You are showing over 17K PSi for you Quickload program. I am not saying the velocity cannot wotk for your bullet, but you cannot achieve it af safe pressure. It you want to load the slug to 1700 FPS or more, use a Rifle action. I have fired loads in the pressure gun with such velocity, and they are all overpressure.
Be Careful!
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[Chicken Thief]

Thanks for all the input gents.

The new and improved version is here.
cal.12 Brass that i made a necksizer for, a shellholder and a seater.

Works like a charm.
Now "all" i need is the barrel from Mossberg.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0010831.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0010832.jpg

[excess650]

:shock::holysheep:bigsmyl2::popcorn:

What are your targets, Tatras or Kamaz?

[Chicken Thief]

Mean little cheap far eastern car abominations, and it's funhttp://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Blandet/Smilere/Homerpoppingup.gif

[longbow]

Please post photos of a kill!

Those do look mean!

Looks like you have settled on brass hulls. They should last well. Are they going into a standard 12 ga. chamber?

If you are getting a custom barrel it would be nice to have a chamber cut more like a rifle chamber and get rid of the forcing cone.

Please do keep us informed. This is interesting.

Longbow

[ted60]

it would be very crazy but neat if ya could build a bolt action with a BP type rifling, a .72+ caliber varmint rifle? it'd be scary to shoulder that rifle and touch off a round!

[longbow]

Oh that's been done already and by more than one! Here's one:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=137450&highlight=.73

Maybe not BP but here is another one:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=124685