Interesting turn of events in MO

[subsonic]

Here in Missouri the conservation regulations for this year state that you can hunt with a centerfire handgun (among other things) durin muzzleloader season.

I like to handgun hunt, so that's wha I'm going to do next year. I already handgun hunt during firearms season. I will probably sell my Encore Endeavor muzzleloader barrel and the UC short mold I just bought from Accurate molds. I hunted with a fron stuffer as a necessity to have a longer season. If I decide to hunt with a ML in the future, it will be a roundball gun.

[Mk42gunner]

subsonic,

Where did you find the regs for 2012? I just went to the Dept of Conservation website, and all I could find were the 2011 regs.

The way I read it, it is legal to use a Cap & Ball revolver, not a centerfire. Here is what I found on methods for the muzzle loader season:

Methods
•A muzzleloading or cap-and-ball firearm .40 caliber or larger and capable of firing only a single projectile at one discharge; in-lines and scopes are allowed
•Multiple-barreled muzzleloading or cap-and-ball firearms and/or muzzleloading or cap-and-ball handguns, including revolvers, .40 caliber or larger are allowed and may be carried in addition to a muzzleloading or cap-and-ball rifle

Robert

[Boerrancher]

yes if you would please post where the info came from. If they are doing that I am going to call and raise hell with them, because I am forced to use an atlatl with a stone broadhead during the firearms portion of deer season only, when it is more primitive than a bow and arrow, yet you can use a center fire hand gun during the muzzle loading portion. That makes absolutely no sense to me.

Best wishes,

Joe

[subsonic]

http://mdc.mo.gov/conmag/2012/02/regulations-2012-update?page=0,1

About halfway down the page:

"To provide hunters more options during the muzzleloader portion of the firearms deer season, additional hunting methods will be allowed. These include archery methods, crossbows, atlatls, handguns firing expanding-type centerfire ammunition, and air-powered guns, .40 caliber or larger, that are charged only from an external high-compression power source."

It was announced in December I beleive. It has been kept on the downlow as far as I can tell because I just heard it at the gunshop the other day.

[subsonic]

BTW-I like it! I have no idea why anybody would NOT like this. It's another opportunity to hunt with another kind of tool. Nothing says you can't hunt with your ML if you want to, and I beleive the ML rifle is an EASIER tool to hunt with than any handgun.

[Fishman]

I wish they wouldn't make you buy a seperate tag for bowhunting season and muzzleloading season. A "primitive" tag would make it less expensive to participate for out of state guys like me. Participation in both seasons is pretty low relative to gun season, so it wouldn't be a big revenue loss, not that they need to concern themselves with that anyway with the 1/8 cent tax.

[Mk42gunner]

Fishman,
'
Up until a few years ago you had to buy a separate tag for gun season and muzzleloader season. It seems like you had to choose which you wanted to take a buck with, but I don't remember for sure; I wasn't able to make it back on leave every year.

subsonic,

Thanks for the link. I am kind of ambivelant about using centerfire handguns during "muzzleloader" season. Something about it just doesn't seem quite right.

That bit about now being able to hunt doves all day was an eye opener, I haven't hunted doves since MO started charging the extra migratory bird fee for them, I think it was $2.00 or something like that.

Robert

[GaryN]

Subsonic: If I were you I would hold off a while before selling my muzzleloader because:
1. I think there will be a few for sale for a while and it will drive the price down.
2. But more importantly I have seen states change their mind and switch things back the next year.

[Boerrancher]

Well I am not sure that I like the Center fire pistol during ML season. I can understand the other changes allowing cross bows because the range is limited. I think that by allowing center fire pistols will result in a bunch of coyote food because most people that would pack a pistol in place of a muzzle loader thinking they would have an advantage, can't shoot a pistol well enough to hunt with it.

Just my 2 cents,

Joe

[subsonic]

If I sell my barrel for my encore, it will be on GB, not locally. And if they change back, it will be a good excuse to buy the roundball gun I really want anyway.

I imagine more coyotes are fed during regular firearms season... I have worked the pre-deer season sight-in at my local range...

[Mk42gunner]

If I sell my barrel for my encore, it will be on GB, not locally. And if they change back, it will be a good excuse to buy the roundball gun I really want anyway.

I imagine more coyotes are fed during regular firearms season... I have worked the pre-deer season sight-in at my local range...

I went to the DoC range at Clinton right before deer season, once. I decided that if I ever got to the start of deer season with a new to me rifle again, I would use one of my old faithfuls that I know I can hit a deer with. Scariest range I have ever been to.

During a break so people could change targets; a group of three idiots arrived, put up something to shoot at at 25 yards, came back and shot a round with a couple of guys still downrange. Luckily there was a berm inbetween them and the idiots.

No questions as to if there was anybody still down range, or if everybody was ready for the range to go hot again or anything. Then they acted like it wasn't thier fault, when the whole range yelled at them.

I really do not like public unattended ranges.

Robert

[Reload3006]

I personally like the unattended ranges but I leave when others show up. Usually the only reason I go to them is to collect brass anyway as I have property and have my own private range.

Interesting thing with the Deer season though. I like it and then again I dont. There has been a lot of things the MO. dept of conservation have been doing of recent years that I have not been to happy about .. but then they really dont ask me what I think ...Unless you count those preworded surveys they send me every year.

[750k2]

That's crazy - I wish our state would go closer to the
PA route and call it a primitive season.
No in-lines - I wouldn't have a problem with cap locks.
Kind of defeats the purpose don't it????
A bunch of .308 strikers going against flinters?
Try and keep it down south guys - Please.

[subsonic]

It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

If you feel like you are "competing" to fill a tag, I guess you have a point. If it is about the hunt and methods, and you get to do what you always could, why moan?

Seriously, the deer population is much higher in Missouri than it has ever been in my lifetime. We need to shoot more deer.

[xcr440]

That's crazy - I wish our state would go closer to the
PA route and call it a primitive season.
No in-lines - I wouldn't have a problem with cap locks.
Kind of defeats the purpose don't it????
A bunch of .308 strikers going against flinters?
Try and keep it down south guys - Please.

+1 I feel the same way.

[Coffeecup]

I think Boerrancher is an optimist when it comes to the increased volume of coyote food.

[starmac]

This sort of defeats the purpose of a muzzle loader season.
Does this include anything that is considered a handgun?, if so why don't they just call it deer season, use what you bring.

[Hang Fire]

As for making hunting cheaper, we can all just dream on about that When it comes to hunting, most state governments will charge for any and everything they can concoct up to get more $ into their pockets knowing the hunters will fork over..

[subsonic]

Would you like it better if they made half the time that is currently ML season "whatever you want" season, and the other half ML only?

Seriously folks. They only came up with muzzleloader season to make more money/sell more tags while increasing the number of deer taken (mostly does) to keep the population in check. Were you ever really under the assumption that the MO dept of conservation thought you deserved something special because you load your rifle from the opposite end?

The population of deer continues to grow so they must continue to loosen the requirements and encourage more hunters to take deer, or give hunters more time in the woods.

How many of you hunt with your ML during regular firearms season? How is that different?

[Coffeecup]

"They" (meaning the various state wildlife management agencies) didn't come up with muzzleloader season; it was something that was worked for and lobbied for by muzzleloader shooters. The ML seasons were accepted on the basis that MLs have inherent limitations not present in cartridge firearms. State wildlife management agencies had nothing to do with it, most fought against it, and most had little use for it until they saw a way to make it a cash cow.

The argument will be made--as Boerrancher has done--that this will result in an increase in the number of animals wounded but not followed up on. I suspect this is correct, but there are some more-important factors to consider.

In the past, some landowners have allowed access only to ML hunters, or archers, or both. This is due largely to the fact that there have historically been fewer problems (property damage, injured or killed stock, wounded game left to die, etc) with these two groups. I called and checked today: the ground my brothers and I planned to hunt during ML season this year is probably going to be closed to all but the landowner's family. (I was told, "We haven't decided for sure yet, but I wouldn't make any plans.") If that plays out across the state, there will be fewer tags sold, fewer deer harvested, plus some small impact on local economies.

Given the uncertainty about access, and the timing of the decision by MDC, we won't be hunting Missouri this year; the family just doesn't own enough ground there for all of us. Probably won't hunt there for a few years, simply due to not knowing what fun stuff MDC will do next.

[subsonic]

My appologies for the way my last post was written. I did not realize how coarse it was until I read it again this morning.

I beleive you will find there was considerable lobbying for this as well.

This is one of the problems with changes in anything.

You can't please all of the people all of the time.

Of the handgun hunters I know personally, they are all very serious and practice WAY more than your average rifle hunter. I'm not sure why you guys would jump to "coyote food". I hear way more "I must have barely clipped him, wasn't much blood so I stopped looking" stories from rifle guys. There will only be a small portion of the already small number of ML hunters that swith to handguns. But I bet there will be people who do not ML hunt that handgun hunt.

[750k2]

And who told you that you have to many deer?
They said that for years up here - you'll see how it turns out.

[Reload3006]

The Missouri Department of Conservation has been doing a lot of bone head things of recent years to pander to special interests. Animal Biology seems to be the last thing they are interested in. Income from out of state tags and taxes are way more important to them than habitat or populations. When you get right down to it Muzzloading and archery seasons are really Special interests. So is the antler restrictions implemented in the northern part of the state. My issue with antler restrictions is it does absolutely nothing for the deer herd but it makes some rich idiots happy. Pray tell me if you are harvesting the good genetics what will you be left with after they are denied reproduction? Age has very little to do with Rack size.

[bearcove]

I think it would be better to do ML or a more primitive weapon season.

Archery could include any non firearm/airgun weapon.

Been hunting there since '78, and still do as non resident landowner.

Got my first deer in '80 with a ruger BH near the Daniel Boone home. Hunted the next farm east.

[Boerrancher]

The Missouri Department of Conservation has been doing a lot of bone head things of recent years..... So is the antler restrictions implemented in the northern part of the state. My issue with antler restrictions is it does absolutely nothing for the deer herd but it makes some rich idiots happy. Pray tell me if you are harvesting the good genetics what will you be left with after they are denied reproduction? Age has very little to do with Rack size.

My neighbor and good friend has a deer farm. I take care of the deer when he is working out of town, which means I am around them about 3 times a week. Any buck that isn't a 4X4 the first year of antler growth we butcher them. We have actually let a couple of forked horns grow up and that is all they ever were. At 3 years they were still forked horns, so we ate them as well. Any whitetail deer breeder will tell you that spikes and forked horns will always be spikes and forked horns, and reproduce spikes and forked horns. For years on my farm that is all we had was deer with crappy racks, and we started killing off all of the spikes and forks, and in about 10 years we had a good herd. The last year before the antler restriction went into place there was a 16 pt, 12 pt, and 2 nice eight points killed and no scrubs, after just 3 years of point restrictions there is a bunch of scrubs running around.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Coffeecup]

In most states, the lobbying etc for ML seasons took years (5-10 or more was not uncommon). People put out time, effort, and money to get those seasons. If the folks lobbying for the change had been working that long, you'd think MDC wouldn't be trying to keep it, in the words of one of the posters, "on the downlow."

I don't think the concern is about "handgun hunters" but rather the folks who decide to take advantage of the extra season and head out with the pistol they've had for ten years and have yet to finish the first box of ammo. That second group is probably going to outnumber the first.

My personal concern is that it will increase the number of idiots in the field. You can usually avoid them after opening morning during the ML seasons, because most of them lack the willingness to work for their hunt. I lost all patience with those folks the afternoon I heard someone yell, "Something moved, shoot it" followed by a barrage of rifle bullets and buckshot, then the words, "What was it? Did we hit anything?"

After talking with some folks today, I suspect MDC is planning on making up the loss of some out-of-state hunters with folks from IL and some of the cities there in Missouri, and I hope everyone has good--and safe--hunts.

[Boerrancher]

I don't think the concern is about "handgun hunters" but rather the folks who decide to take advantage of the extra season and head out with the pistol they've had for ten years and have yet to finish the first box of ammo. That second group is probably going to outnumber the first.

Coffee cup, you are spot on. I don't have an issue with handgun hunters, of which I am not one, as my handgun skills are not where I want them to be for me to feel comfortable hunting a deer with them, and I can bust a clay bird every time at 100 yards with my Redhawk 44mag, but I am just don't have the confidence in my shooting skills with it, and I Know I can shoot better than more than half the folks that will head to the woods with a handgun due to the new regs.

Best wishes,

Joe

[smoked turkey]

My take on this is vastly different than many of those commenting here. For the life of me I don't know why we have so many bashers of the Missouri Conservation Commision. Seems it is the popular thing to do. Anyone that has lived and hunted in the state knows that several years ago we didn't have an abundance of deer to hunt in MO. Call it what you will, but I give some of the credit to MDC for good game management that brought back the deer herd. They have done similar things with the turkey population. There are quite a bit of nay sayers to what they have recently done but they are now trying to bring back elk to our state(yes back because MO used to have elk). You can say they are just doing it so they can have more money in the future as elk seasons are allowed. I choose to call it good game management. It is because of past good decisions like those above that makes MO one of the better states for turkey. It doesn't take a degree in economics to realize that more revenue for a lot of MO businesses are a result of these good hunting conditions. If properly managed our game populations are a renewable resource.
The next to last point I wish to comment on concerns the implacation that this additional hunting method during muzzleloading season brings in more revenue for MDC and that is why they are doing it. Well yes and no. Any unused tags from regular firearms season can be used during muzzleloader season. In other words, additional tags to take advantage of the muzzleloader season are not required. It can mean additional revenue if a hunter has filled all earlier tags and wishes to buy a bonus doe tag. I think the cost is $8. That seems like a bargin to me to get to extend your hunting season and perhaps if your freezer is already full of meat we are encouraged to "share the harvest" so that no game is wasted.
Last point concerns the bashing of other hunters and their methods. This is no time to divide our ranks by bickering amonst ourselves. We are all on the same team. Their are plenty of antis our there who would like to see no hunters in the woods and no season of any kind. We need to promote hunting of all types for the wonderful sport and hobby it is and be thankful that we live in a country that affords so many wonderful ways to enjoy the hunt and the outdoors. End of rant.

[Boerrancher]

Smoked Turkey, I understand where you are coming from but don't agree with you 100% The antler restriction is destroying the deer herd. I use to have lots of nice bucks to hunt, because I kept the spikes and forked horns killed, and now all there is running around are spikes and forked horns because all of the good genetics have been killed off. As I said earlier, my good friend and neighbor has a whitetail deer farm, and I am up there several times a week taking care of the deer. A whitetail buck with good genetics will be at least a 3x3 with his first set of antlers, and often times a 4x4. Killing off all of the good genetics and leaving the bad hoping they will breed good the next year is insanity, and they know this. There is some other reason behind it, but I don't know what.

Next is your "bashing of hunters." I was not talking about hunters. There is a huge difference between an idiot in the woods with a gun and a hunter. I am sorry if this offends you, but most people who own a hand gun can't shoot it well enough to ethically take game with it. Many folks who hunt with long guns can't shoot well enough to ethically take game as well, but at least they only have 12 or so days to wound deer. Most people can't pick up a gun, fire a couple shots off the bench, and then have the skill to place a killing shot on deer sized animal. I am not bashing, I am just stating a simple truth. I shoot constantly to keep up my skills. I am not saying that I am never going to make a bad shot, but by shooting the firearms that I use to hunt with regularly I lessen the chances of making those bad shots. Never once have I ever said they shouldn't be out there hunting, I just don't think the MDC should be enabling those who are not serious hunters and shooters by allowing folks to be banging away in the woods with a semi auto hand gun, while I am out there with a single shot front stuffer. How is that fair to the primitive hunter?

Best wishes,

Joe

[subsonic]

You guys forget that muzzleloaders are even easier to purchase than centerfire pistols and rifles and there are idiots that hunt with them too.

I work with a guy that asked me how to stop the caps from being pushed off by air pressure when he was seating a ball.

At a range I used to belong to a fellow shot the ramrod through his hand an the awning above like this.

As I said, idiots are limitless.

[Boerrancher]

As I said, idiots are limitless.


I was always told from the time I was a young lad that there was two things that a man could never do and they are as follows:

You can't drink a fat girl skinny, and you can't fix stupid. Anything else is possible.

Best wishes,

Joe