accuracy from a new Win 45-70, expecting too much?

[XTR]

Am I expecting too much?

To say I shoot a fair amount is an understatement. In the last couple of yrs I've started shooting F-TR comps so I'm at the range more than most. I reload for precision and I've come to expect a certain measure of accuracy from my rifles.

My rebarreled 30" Krieger barreled 308 is currently in load development printing 200 yard groups in the 2s and 3s. (one 3 shot cloverleaf at .155 moa). THe 308 that I hunt with will print .5 to .75 with 165SMKs. Hell, even my Knight muzzle loader, which it turns out is my absolute deer slayer, will shoot 1.5 or better.

My Highwall 45-70 on the other hand is driving me mad. This is a 24" Miroku manufactured rifle with no throat to speak of.

I've tried cast bullets and jacketed bullets from 300 to 405 grains. Loaded with H322, IMR 3031, Varget, Rx7 and 4198. MVs from about 1600 to 2200 and I cannot get it to group better than 2" at 100 yards.

I finally broke down and shot a 200 yard group last weekend with a load set of 300gn jacketed hollow points and it was just over 2MOA.

At this point there are several hundred rounds down the tube and I'm not happy with the results. I'm not looking for target rifle accuracy, but I would thing that it should shoot 1MOA. That's not too much to ask.


Has anyone else found a load that will shoot tight in these rifles?

Has anyone else done well with cast boolits? My boolit groups have been the worst. I've shot with and w.o GCs from 340s to 405s and they just don't seem to get there.

I'm seriously thinking of having my smith run a reamer into the chamber to give me a little more throat. The way the rifle is today have to seat Hornaday 350gn flat noses in past the cannelure or it won't chamber, and even then the lands put marks on the nose for 30 thousandths.

I am going to make this rifle shoot, or I'm going to learn what it likes to shoot or something. I really like the rifle, I want it to be my regular white tail rifle, but I have got to get it to the point that I am confident of my shot placement out to 200 yards or it isn't going to work. I have a friend who seems a little surprised at my confidence (and success) with my muzzle loader at ranges from 125 to 150. I know the ballistics, I trust the rifle, and it makes dead deer. Over a 200 yard field of fire I'd honestly just as soon carry it as a center fire, this is the rifle that I want to use in it's place muzzle loader season closes and rifle season opens, but right now it's not there.

[bowfin]

but I would thing that it should shoot 1MOA. That's not too much to ask.

I am going to ask a rhetorical question here, but does Winchester guarantee this model of rifle to shoot 1 MOA? If not, then why would you expect it?

It would be impossible for a shooter or hunter to have EVERY rifle bought to be capable of shooting sub MOA groups unless that person got rid of the ones that weren't capable. It used to be that a rifle that shot 1" groups at 100 yards was exceptional. Now, many people think that is the dividing line between adequate and a lemon.

The most often heard comment during sighting in day at the local gun range is "I know this rifle can shoot 1 MOA." When pressed for reasons why the owner thinks that, it basically boils down to, "Because I want it to shoot 1 MOA."

I think the rifle is fine. You need to adjust your expectations accordingly.

[XTR]

It would be impossible for a shooter or hunter to have EVERY rifle bought to be capable of shooting sub MOA groups unless that person got rid of the ones that weren't capable. It used to be that a rifle that shot 1" groups at 100 yards was exceptional. Now, many people think that is the dividing line between adequate and a lemon.

The most often heard comment during sighting in day at the local gun range is "I know this rifle can shoot 1 MOA." When pressed for reasons why the owner thinks that, it basically boils down to, "Because I want it to shoot 1 MOA."


If I can't get it to where I want it I will get rid of it. I've got too much OCD going on to live with it if I can't make it work. Now, that does not preclude me buying a new barrel or getting this one re-chambered. I don't mind paying my smith to make my rifles shoot the way that I want them too.


I shoot bolt actions, and with quality reloads most of the bolt action offerings out there can hold 1 MOA or better if the guy on the trigger knows what he is doing. More often than I hear "I know this rifle can shoot 1 MOA." is "I can't figure out where it's shooting" or "The adjustments must be mounted backwards" (I heard that one twice in the last six months)




I think the rifle is fine. You need to adjust your expectations accordingly.

That may be the case.

The most common thing I see on the forums are claims of sub .5moa groups, or three shot groups on a target with a dozen holes in it.

These are just for load workups at 200 yards, I know they are only 3 round groups. I don't expect my 45-70 to shoot like this, but I expect tighter than 5 inches at 200 yards.

http://www.onlinehumidor.com/forum/gallery/1_28_01_12_3_51_33.jpg

[45 2.1]

At this point there are several hundred rounds down the tube and I'm not happy with the results. I'm not looking for target rifle accuracy, but I would thing that it should shoot 1MOA. That's not too much to ask. No it's not too much to ask of the rifle. How about you though?

Has anyone else done well with cast boolits? Beyond your wildest dreams in the 45-70. As have others on this forum who have learned how.

I'm seriously thinking of having my smith run a reamer into the chamber to give me a little more throat. Don't if you want boolit accuracy.

I am going to make this rifle shoot, or I'm going to learn what it likes to shoot or something. That can be a long road. Be prepared to change your way of thinking and most of what you do.

[XTR]

I think these barrels the rifling is to shallow. 025" per land depth is not enough. I think good rifling is .050" for a total of at least .010".

I need to slug this thing with a sinker and I haven't bothered to get one. I have slugged it with a 45ACP cast, It's what I had around here. I know it's a .453 so I don't get groove depth, but the bore looks to be .450, so if it's a true .458 it has .008 total and a groove depth of .004

[XTR]

I am going to make this rifle shoot, or I'm going to learn what it likes to shoot or something. That can be a long road. Be prepared to change your way of thinking and most of what you do.

I don't understand this one. Making accurate bullets I understand, I do it now.

Doing load workups and getting the most out of a given bullet in a given barrel I get, I do that now.

Shooting fundamentals are the same for 22LR or 45-70. What will need to be different?

[45 2.1]

I don't understand this one. Making accurate bullets I understand, I do it now.

Doing load workups and getting the most out of a given bullet in a given barrel I get, I do that now.

Shooting fundamentals are the same for 22LR or 45-70. What will need to be different?

I have a question for you then............ If you do all these things, then why are you not getting results that you expect? I've been thru this with other folks on this forum and elsewhere. What I said has happened with all of them.

A test for you............. Take a fired case from your rifle, take a punch and flare out the remnants of the crimp and measure with calipers the inside neck diameter of that case. Turn the case on the ID blade of the calipers with a scraping fit. What does it measure? What size were you shooting?

[geargnasher]

I think what 45 2.1 is saying is that you don't understand how to get the most of of this particular barrel, yet. You think you do, because you are working within a paradigm that has worked for your other guns so far, but you will probably need to abandon that thought process in order to master your new .45/70. This is a case of doing the same old thing and automatically thinking "it's the only way" has you trapped in a box that this gun doesn't like.

Gear

{edit} simultaneous post, Bob, I see I read you right.

[NSB]

XTR,
I bought a Winchester/Mir.. last October and ran into the same problems you have. In fact, I posted on here about it and got a lot of good suggestions on what to try (I'm still working on them. They were for cast bullets which is what I want to shoot). I haven't found any cast loads that shoot well out of the gun and I was ready to send it down the highway until last week. I decided to see if the gun actually had any potential to shoot any kind of acceptable group. I took out some 405g jacket bullets (Rem JSP) at 1300 fps and tried them at 100 yds. (I put a scope on the gun to rule out "old eyes"). I got a five shot group that measured 1.1" center to center. I now know the gun has all kind of potential so I'll keep it and keep working with it. If I can't get it to shoot cast, I'll keep it for my deer gun and shoot the jacketed out of it. What I really found frustrating was that I bought a Pedersoli Sharps 45-70 and can shoot almost any load out of it and most shoot well and some shoot exceptional, and I mean exceptional! Don't give up. I believe the gun will shoot but it's going to take some work to get it there. Good luck.
P.S.- I tried some 300g jacketed and they didn't do too well. Around 2.25" group.

[XTR]

They are about .001 over the bullets being fired. I'm running .458s and .459s, the inside looks to be .460

[wgr]

They are about .001 over the bullets being fired. I'm running .458s and .459s, the inside looks to be .460

the inside looks to be .460 has me thinking . did you mic. it are just look at it

[XTR]

XTR,
I bought a Winchester/Mir.. last October and ran into the same problems you have. In fact, I posted on here about it and got a lot of good suggestions on what to try (I'm still working on them. They were for cast bullets which is what I want to shoot). I haven't found any cast loads that shoot well out of the gun and I was ready to send it down the highway until last week. I decided to see if the gun actually had any potential to shoot any kind of acceptable group. I took out some 405g jacket bullets (Rem JSP) at 1300 fps and tried them at 100 yds. (I put a scope on the gun to rule out "old eyes"). I got a five shot group that measured 1.1" center to center. I now know the gun has all kind of potential so I'll keep it and keep working with it. If I can't get it to shoot cast, I'll keep it for my deer gun and shoot the jacketed out of it. What I really found frustrating was that I bought a Pedersoli Sharps 45-70 and can shoot almost any load out of it and most shoot well and some shoot exceptional, and I mean exceptional! Don't give up. I believe the gun will shoot but it's going to take some work to get it there. Good luck.
P.S.- I tried some 300g jacketed and they didn't do too well. Around 2.25" group.

Thanks for posting. I found your thread. Other than several other people who are having the same troubles with these rifles I don't see a lot of useful information in there for me. (did see several recommendations not to crimp, which is pretty much where I am now.

I'm looking for a load that will push a 300 to 350 bullet in the neighborhood of 2100, or a 405 in the vicinity of 1600, and shoot 1 to 1.5 MOA.

I think reading here it's pretty obvious that there are more than a few people haveing the same issues with this rifle, be it the 24" Sporter that I have or the 28" Anniversary or the 28" Traditional Hunters. These guns should not be flinging bullets all over the targets. We should be able to build a data base of what works for these guns and leave out the BPCR rifle discussion as it seems to have little to no bearing on these.

Whether they be 1:18 or 1:20 they should stabilize bullets in the 300 to 425 range quite well, so that's not it, and you say that your Pendersoli shoots pretty much anything, so what is the difference?

[XTR]

the inside looks to be .460 has me thinking . did you mic. it are just look at it

My eyeball won't see .001. I used my calipers.

[para45lda]

Calipers?

Anyone else want to take this?

Wes

[Larry Gibson]

XTR

Perhaps your expectations are not what they should be. Consider;

You are expecting the 45-70 sporter weight barreled single shot to shoot as well as you cusom barreled target rifles?

Are you using the same quality and power of scopes/sights on the Winchester 45-70 as on the target rifles?

Are you expecting to target shoot with the 45-70 or hunt with it?

Have you adjusted your bech shooting technique from a one piece target rifle stock to fit a two piece sporter single shot rifle? Consider the more recoil of the lighter weight 45-70 rifle and the 2 piece stock and how it rests on the shooting bags.

Don't you think if target shooting then perhaps a getting a new target style barrel should be in order before expecting targe gun accuracy out of it?

Wouldn't you think that if hunting isn't a 5" group at 200 yards sufficient for big game at probably the max range for the cartridge?

Given the above considerations then a quality .459 cast bullet or a .457 - .458 jacketed bullet should, and does, shoot to the accuracy requirements of a factory produced single shot sporter rifle. Now please don't get me wrong here, I'm not criticising you at all, just trying to help you understand what you've got with that rifle and it's potential. If you want a target rifle then the obvious solution is to have a target rifle built out of it and used as a target rifle.

I shoot target rifles (.223, .308W and '06) also and 45-70 rifles (3 single shots and a Siamese Bolt action). I don't expect my 45-70s, even my target 45-70, to shoot with the same accuracy as my LR target rifles. I am perfectly happy, and competative, with 1 1/2 - 2 moa with 10 shot groups out of my target 45-70. In matches I've seen a lot of 4 - 8" 10 shot groups at 200 yards win. Seen smaller groups ahot also but they are not the norm.

Many claim sub moa accuracy, especially with 3 and 5 shot groups, but they do not give not statistically assurance with that small of a sample. The absolute minimum for statistical assurance is a 7 shot group whether testing fps, psi or group size. SAAMI uses 10 shot test strings. An "average" group size is also not the accuracy capability of any rifle; the largest group fired is the accuracy capability, the average is only the average. If shooting a match of 10 shots then the testing for accuracy with 10 shots is best. If the match calls for 20 shots + 2 sighters then 22 shot test strings for accuracy are best. Only then will you know the "accuracy potential" of the rifle/ammunition for task at hand. I've seen many a HP shooter with a poor score pull the proverbial clover leaf 3 shot group out of his wallet and say the load can shoot! They go off muttering and blame the rifle or something else because their cone of fire really was 3-4 moa not understanding that their "test" of the load used was insufficient. They fail to realise their score is a true indication of the accuracy potential of that load in that rifle because the sample size (60-80 shots + sighters for an NMC) just shot was very good. Again, not criticising, just points to ponder......

Larry Gibson

[XTR]

XTR

Perhaps your expectations are not what they should be. Consider;

You are expecting the 45-70 sporter weight barreled single shot to shoot as well as you cusom barreled target rifles?

Are you using the same quality and power of scopes/sights on the Winchester 45-70 as on the target rifles?

Are you expecting to target shoot with the 45-70 or hunt with it?

Have you adjusted your bech shooting technique from a one piece target rifle stock to fit a two piece sporter single shot rifle? Consider the more recoil of the lighter weight 45-70 rifle and the 2 piece stock and how it rests on the shooting bags.

Don't you think if target shooting then perhaps a getting a new target style barrel should be in order before expecting targe gun accuracy out of it?

Wouldn't you think that if hunting isn't a 5" group at 200 yards sufficient for big game at probably the max range for the cartridge?

Given the above considerations then a quality .459 cast bullet or a .457 - .458 jacketed bullet should, and does, shoot to the accuracy requirements of a factory produced single shot sporter rifle. Now please don't get me wrong here, I'm not criticising you at all, just trying to help you understand what you've got with that rifle and it's potential. If you want a target rifle then the obvious solution is to have a target rifle built out of it and used as a target rifle.

I shoot target rifles (.223, .308W and '06) also and 45-70 rifles (3 single shots and a Siamese Bolt action). I don't expect my 45-70s, even my target 45-70, to shoot with the same accuracy as my LR target rifles. I am perfectly happy, and competative, with 1 1/2 - 2 moa with 10 shot groups out of my target 45-70. In matches I've seen a lot of 4 - 8" 10 shot groups at 200 yards win. Seen smaller groups ahot also but they are not the norm.

Many claim sub moa accuracy, especially with 3 and 5 shot groups, but they do not give not statistically assurance with that small of a sample. The absolute minimum for statistical assurance is a 7 shot group whether testing fps, psi or group size. SAAMI uses 10 shot test strings. An "average" group size is also not the accuracy capability of any rifle; the largest group fired is the accuracy capability, the average is only the average. If shooting a match of 10 shots then the testing for accuracy with 10 shots is best. If the match calls for 20 shots + 2 sighters then 22 shot test strings for accuracy are best. Only then will you know the "accuracy potential" of the rifle/ammunition for task at hand. I've seen many a HP shooter with a poor score pull the proverbial clover leaf 3 shot group out of his wallet and say the load can shoot! They go off muttering and blame the rifle or something else because their cone of fire really was 3-4 moa not understanding that their "test" of the load used was insufficient. They fail to realise their score is a true indication of the accuracy potential of that load in that rifle because the sample size (60-80 shots + sighters for an NMC) just shot was very good. Again, not criticising, just points to ponder......

Larry Gibson

Thank you

Yes, the point of my post was to find out if in fact my expectations are too high for this platform.

I've been working on my form with this rifle, it does have more recoil than a 17lb 308, a hell of a lot more in fact, and position and form are more important the bigger the recoil. It makes a difference going from 155s to 185s at 1000 yards, so I know that is a variable. I've spent a fair amount of time with this rifle now and I'll never call my hits but I can stay with it and I don't think I'm pulling it off. As a wrote above I've put a couple of hundred rounds through it and it consistently throws 2 out of 5. I can get 3 shots in a 2MOA group then bang, one just lands 3 inches from the point of aim, or I get the one flyer then 3 decent ones, but I've yet to see this shot a 5 shot group that I could believe in.

I am more than familiar with the exaggerated accuracy claims. I hear a lot, I see few clean targets to prove it. (and I know those are only 3 shot groups I posted, those were from an OCW ladder) That is why I asked. If this rifle from the factory is not going to give better than 2 MOA then I may need to consider my options to make it better or change rifles. Because I shoot comps I also understand people just out practicing tend to forget the misses, but when someone is scoring 20 consecutive shots at 1000 yards you find that you remember them more. That 8 at the end of a run of Xs and 10s in the second string will haunt you all afternoon.

Yea, 5" at 200 is still inside of the critical hit zone on a white tail, but it doesn't instill any confidence.

Maybe I'm pushing to much MV. I've been trying to get 2000-2100 from jacketed bullets, and that's well below maximums, and 1600 from the 405 cast.



Turn the case on the ID blade of the calipers with a scraping fit.



para45lda Calipers?

Anyone else want to take this?

Wes



Sure, you were wanting dividers and a mic, or an inside mic? The original question, which was for a data point (with no reason given for asking) said with calipers. I still don't know what it was supposed to tell me?

[Chill Wills]

I am still unclear as to the first question that went through my mind at the first post. What do you expect to shoot with this rifle? As in Why did you buy it?

So far I know you did not get it to shoot Creedmoor matches.

Respectfully, what is the intent of the rifle?

Generally, the 45-70 class singleshot rifle that CAN claim MOA,, these rifles are barreled 12lbs and up and do not exceed 1400fps MAX and less in most cases.

I am sure there are exceptions, so please let's not digress. So, again, why the rifle?

With great respect,

[NSB]

FWIW: I spent a lifetime working in statistical quality control/engineering. The term "capable" is often misused. A gun that can shoot five shots into an inch is "capable" of shooting 1MOA. However, a word that doesn't appear here is "performance". Process capability and process performance are very related but one is a brief snap-shot of what a process (gun's accuracy) can do vs. performance (all the factors that make a gun less accurate over time (more shots)...shooter, rest, variations in components, wind, etc). A gun's accuracy doesn't need to be measured over a long shot string to determine how accurate it is. What happens is that everything besides the gun has variation. Reducing variation improves process performance. That's why the people who reduce/eliminate all the variation shoot the best groups.

[Larry Gibson]

XTR

Sounds like you've a good handle on what you want. If you want the rifle for hunting I suggest a change in bench positions (assuming you've the gun layed on the bags in usual bench style. The flyers indicate there may be a problem with the way the 2 piece stock is recoiling, especially as the forend is secured to the barrel. Suggest you use a "high" bench rest position sitting up straight, holding the forarm in the off hand with the off hand laying on top of the bag. Both elbows on the bench and the butt pulled into the shoulder pocket as when firing with out a rest.

Try that and see if it doesn't eliminate the flyers. If so then the problem is just the forend connected to the barrel. If not then there is a problem else where, perhaps the muzzle crown?

I've found 300 gr Sierra FP over 4759 or 5744 at 1800 - 1900 fps to be particularly accurate in numerous 45-70 rifles.

Larry Gibson

[XTR]

Respectfully, what is the intent of the rifle?

Generally, the 45-70 class singleshot rifle that CAN claim MOA,, these rifles are barreled 12lbs and up and do not exceed 1400fps MAX and less in most cases.

I am sure there are exceptions, so please let's not digress. So, again, why the rifle?

With great respect,


I thought I wrote this part somewhere.

This is a hunting rifle.


I searched pretty long till I found one with a 24" barrel instead of a 28 or longer (but didn't want one of those silly trapper tings). I live in TN and most of my hunting is over fields of 250 yards or less. If I'm hunting where I may shoot further I'll take a bolt gun. There is a whole soap opera of a story on my scope mounting problems on this rifle, in the end I've got it all worked out and it's sporting a Swaro Z3 with a BRX reticle. (I am a huge fan of reticles that let me do accurate holdovers) That reticle will give me accurate holds out to further than I'm willing to shoot this rifle.

I like big bores, and I love the look of the highwall, in fact my next hunting purchase (after I re-barrel one of my 308s into a 7-08 this spring/summer) will probably be either a 30-06 or a 7mmRm in an 1885. No special desire for either, it will really be a what I can find when I start looking, I've seen both.

I'd love to shoot Creedmore stuff, but I can only do one discipline at a time. Right now I'm shooting F-TR and thinking about a few service rifle matches with an AR-15 just for practice. Maybe in a few years I'll give it a whirl. I'm a member at ORSA in Oak Ridge, so I have access to and use the 1000 yard range pretty regularly. I do want to put on a tang sight and try throwing the big pills out there, but that's all something to do later and probably with another rifle. For now this is meant to be a deer slayer. Yes, a 5 inch group at 200 will kill a deer, but at 250 you are getting into the grey areas. I said it above, I'm a little OCD about the things I do. I take them to their sometimes unreasonable extremes, so for me 5" at 200 yards is worrisome. I shot 4 bullets, 3 kinds of brass and close to 200 rounds through the 308 I hunt with until I was satisfied with it for hunting, but I found a combo that gave me consistent .5 to .75 groups. The 1 to 1.5 I started with just wasn't doing it for me. (That's the one I'm re-barreling into a 7-08, here I go again)

[Chill Wills]

XTR, You might have told us what the reason was and I got bogged down somewhere pursing.
So if this is a personal thing between you and the rifle, I get it. A problem to be solved. I like to make every rifle I own as accurate as I can too.
"only accurate rifles are interesting"

I shoot in the Oak Ridge Long-range Muzzle Loader match when I can get there. Great place except for shooting 1000 in the morning when the sun is out! TN is very green com paired to the aired South West = ranges are dry and dusty for the most part.
My long time hunting pard is from Oak Ridge, they owned Guncraft Sports.

Back to the topic, You will likely find 1.5moa with a little work and 1.25moa too. A true moa singleshot sporter on demand is the rare rifle in my experence.

Schuetzen Bench rest is a singleshot game and few Schuetzen rifles of riflemen choose 45-70. That said, it can be increaablly accurate but maybe all kinds of load work-up and bench work will need be done. Get a copy of Charlie Dell's book is a good place to start. Lots of other books frame the challenge too.

Enough for now, all the best,

[Chill Wills]

Forgot,
To see what the rifle will do, not your loads to date;
Try a 500-550 grn bullet with a nose that rides the lands. push it about 1150-1300 with 4759 or 5744 or a load of Swiss powder

[XTR]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm happy to know what the real world numbers probably are. If I can get this to 2 or under I'll be happy with it for 200 - 250 yard hunting.

BTW, That 308 that I'm re-barreling came from Guncraft about 10 or 12 years ago. It's not shot out I've just decided that I don't need three 308s and it's the only one with an OEM barrel on it today.

There are a couple of guys that I see at the bench rest range pretty regularly that do the Schuetzen thing, I think they are both shooting 32s. Very old actions with new barrels. Bullet seaters and cork plugs for the one brass case that they keep re-filling.

[Moondawg]

I have shot a little F Class in the past and shot benchrest for years. To start with comparing a single shot rifle with a external hammer shooting a blackpowder round that is almost a 150 years old, with a modern bolt action target rifle shooting smokeless powder bottle necked cartridges goes beyond apples to oranges. I noted that you did not mention trying black powder in your 45 70. Have you tried working up BP loads? Look at what the guys winning sillywet matchs and NRA long range matches are shooting. They are shooting and winning with BP loads and 500+ gr lead-tin alloy cast boolits. They are not driving these boolits at high speed. Most are somewhere in the 1200 -1300 fps range, maybe a little more. BPCR shooting is a whole different ball of wax from modern cartridges in a bolt gun. What works for one doesn't always work for the other.

[canyon-ghost]

:target_smiley: Okay, you want to think it over. I'm not your psychologist, not your shooting instructor.
You say you have calipers (all the machinists ran screaming from the room). So, when you seat a bullet, where the action closes without binding or engraving, what does your AOL of cartridge measure? Just tap it with the seating die enough to get a measurement. You can color it with Sharpie or magic marker and see it's not too tight. How much too little throat does the rifle have? How short is it?

You won't ram a cast bullet into the rifling and make it shoot. You won't push it too fast and make it group closer, it will just spread out farther.

You won't shoot jacketed with the associated copper fouling and mix it with lead bullets - the lead and lube will turn into a mess that clings to the copper. It's a lot of work to relieve it of ALL the copper fouling.

Ron

[XTR]

I have shot a little F Class in the past and shot benchrest for years. To start with comparing a single shot rifle with a external hammer shooting a blackpowder round that is almost a 150 years old, with a modern bolt action target rifle shooting smokeless powder bottle necked cartridges goes beyond apples to oranges. I noted that you did not mention trying black powder in your 45 70. Have you tried working up BP loads? Look at what the guys winning sillywet matchs and NRA long range matches are shooting. They are shooting and winning with BP loads and 500+ gr lead-tin alloy cast boolits. They are not driving these boolits at high speed. Most are somewhere in the 1200 -1300 fps range, maybe a little more. BPCR shooting is a whole different ball of wax from modern cartridges in a bolt gun. What works for one doesn't always work for the other.


I think you missed some of the important points in this thread.



1. I was never comparing the two cartridges, the point of showing the 308 data was more to validate that I actually have a modicum of skill both in shooting and reloading. Like I wrote somewhere else in here, I see lots of board warriors post about "bug holes" but never see the paper. I don't necessarily know exactly what it takes to get there with a 45-70, but I can with others.

2. This is a hunting rifle. This is not a target rifle. I have no desire to shoot BP, the cleaning on my muzzle loader is enough to reinforce that. I posted quite clearly that I was looking for a load that will give me ~2100 from a 300 to 350 or ~1600 from a 405. That 350 load gives me a 1.5 mil drop at 200 yards and 2.5 mils at 250 yards from a 100 yard zero. That makes for accurate hold overs and accurate shot placement if I can get it to work. It is my expectation that I could find a node somewhere between 2000 and 2200 for a 300 to 350 class bullet.


3. I have tried to be very clear that I do not expect the accuracy from my 45-70 that I get from my modern chamberings; however, there are responses in this thread like:


Has anyone else done well with cast boolits? Beyond your wildest dreams in the 45-70. As have others on this forum who have learned how.
Brother I have some pretty wild dreams, and when you post that right next to a picture with sub .25 MOA groups it might just lead one to the erroneous conclusion that that could be achieved with the rifle in question, and I think that may be the conclusion you drew. (I however did not)

[canyon-ghost]

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx228/3rdshooter/32-20WCF005.jpg


And, here's a single shot with rifle scope, in a blackpowder cartridge.

That's a 32-20 WCF with lead bullet, a holy terror offhand on the silhouette range, goodnuf??

[giz189]

They are about .001 over the bullets being fired. I'm running .458s and .459s, the inside looks to be .460 XTR, you might try a .460 dia. boolit, according to the size of your measured fired case. Also, some don't like it and some do, you might try a dacron filler with the powder you chose to load with. Good Luck!!

[canyon-ghost]

I was toying with the thought of bullet design, maybe a SWC would go into a chamber that a straight hollowpoint won't. Some SWCs don't have the ogive next to the chamber wall to need the same amount of room (sort of like the spire point reaching further into the chamber).

[EDG]

Shooting a 45-70, or other low velocity rifle with similar significant recoil, requires a different testing technique off a benchrest. Learn to to hold the forend instead of shooting it one handed. Holding the forend firmly will reduce the barrel's movement during recoil. I am right handed and I hold the forend down two different ways.
One way is to put my hand on the front bag with the rifle on top with a grip similar to off hand. The other grip, that I use more often, is to turn my right hand so the back of it is toward me and my thumb is on the right side of the forend. I place the base of my palm against the sand bag. Grip firmly to control the forend when the rifle is fired. Do not lean on the but stock with your face. Touch it with only a light pressure from your cheek. If you use your face to hold the rifle down you will cause the whole thing to bend slightly. You will never hold it down consistently with your face.
These rifles do not behave exactly like a high velocity bolt gun. It may take you several years to learn the difference. I generally find the best accuracy with heavier cast bullets at low velocity but they produce a rainbow trajectory and a lot of recoil. The BPCR guys can provide clues to follow with these rifles. The same bulets work well with smokeless but you have to use the right smokeless loaded to the right velocities.
Look for your best loads to use 4759, 4227 and 5744 on the fast end to 3031 on the slow end. Jacketed bullets can go fast and gas checked bullets will go faser than plain base bullets. All of them will go fast enough to have fun. Make sure the bullet is .001 to .003 large than the groove diameter. Use them as cast if you have too.

[NSB]

Some words posted by EDG I totally agree with: Best accuracy has been with slower, heavier bullets. I have found that with my Sharps the most accurate loads are at the low end of the spectrum. When hunting with this gun, from an elevated platform, I use a range finder to get an accurate reading to the game animal (deer in my case) and adjust for the rainbow trajectory. I think it's better to do this than to get in a mind set that I have to have higher velocity. I put the emphasis on accuracy rather than speed and adjust accordingly. Last year I harvested two deer with the gun and the trajectory didn't seem to keep them from dropping right where they stood or very close to where they were standing. As per the original post though, I'm still working on getting my High Wall to that point. Got the jacketed down OK but the cast are still a work in progress.

[bigted]

might be time to do a search in history with the 45-70 cartridge to put it in perspective. it came about after the 50-70 and that directly from the springfield muzzle loaders. this will never get you where you want it to. things its not follow;

1- not a magnum in any sence of the word...[even tho ruger does build a rifle that will withstand the preassure].

2- expectation of accuracy over 1400 fps is going to cost dearly when getting this kind of velocity from a straight cartridge designed for black powder.

3- not filling the case with powder is sometimes a bad mistake when going for longrange accuracy.

4- without slugging YOUR barrel will never give you the details you need for accurate shooting with cast boolits.

5- when you throw out the origanal loads that this 45-2.1 was designed for with accuracy expected then your road is filled with dissapointment...such as trying the paper patch as sharps loaded them...there again without your particular barrel meassurments your still in the dark.

6- i doubt that the shallow groove rifling in your rifle will ever give you the velocity/accuracy you crave.

ive got a traditional hunter and it does well...[1.5 inch 5 shot groups as for hunting]...with the jacketed 405 remingtons when i run them at around 1300 fps. this is with a 6 to 18x leoplod scope installed and my pet rl-7 load with filler. however my rifle has very shallow grooves...[.0025 deep]...and as such i believe...[just my thinking here] ...that the cast boolits skip a bit when run as fast as you describe your desire for them.

all in all i wish you good luck with your trial with this short barrel light barreled 45-70. i hope that the accuracy gods smile on you for your efforts and that you and this fine rifle will come to terms with each other.

oh and if nobody has welcomed you then here is my hand in welcome to a very fun forum with outstanding members that have and will consistantly give up their knowledge for no more then the asking.

WELCOME ABOARD

[XTR]

Thanks for all the input. I think that I understand now what I can expect from this rifle. The answer to my initial question was Yes, expecting 1MOA might be more than it could deliver, but I should be able to get to 2 MOA or a bit better with the right load development.

[XTR]

might be time to do a search in history with the 45-70 cartridge to put it in perspective. it came about after the 50-70 and that directly from the springfield muzzle loaders. this will never get you where you want it to. things its not follow;

...

2- expectation of accuracy over 1400 fps is going to cost dearly when getting this kind of velocity from a straight cartridge designed for black powder.

Noted, that's something I did not know, does this apply to cast only or jacketed bullets too?


3- not filling the case with powder is sometimes a bad mistake when going for longrange accuracy.

Also a bad mistake if you get a flashover/KABOOM in any reload. I try to pick powders that fill cases.


4- without slugging YOUR barrel will never give you the details you need for accurate shooting with cast boolits.

5- when you throw out the origanal loads that this 45-2.1 was designed for with accuracy expected then your road is filled with dissapointment...such as trying the paper patch as sharps loaded them...there again without your particular barrel meassurments your still in the dark.

6- i doubt that the shallow groove rifling in your rifle will ever give you the velocity/accuracy you crave.

Again, thank you. This is not the impression that you get when you read people talking about the accuracy of their rifles, though I had begun to suspect as much. Cast is something that I'd like to do only in that it may allow me to shoot more for the same $$. (I've done this long enough to know you don't save money, you just shoot more)





ive got a traditional hunter and it does well...[1.5 inch 5 shot groups as for hunting]...with the jacketed 405 remingtons when i run them at around 1300 fps. this is with a 6 to 18x leoplod scope installed and my pet rl-7 load with filler. however my rifle has very shallow grooves...[.0025 deep]...and as such i believe...[just my thinking here] ...that the cast boolits skip a bit when run as fast as you describe your desire for them.

all in all i wish you good luck with your trial with this short barrel light barreled 45-70. i hope that the accuracy gods smile on you for your efforts and that you and this fine rifle will come to terms with each other.

oh and if nobody has welcomed you then here is my hand in welcome to a very fun forum with outstanding members that have and will consistantly give up their knowledge for no more then the asking.

WELCOME ABOARD

All good information to have. I've got a better understanding of what my rifle may be capable of now.

[Gunlaker]

Thanks for all the input. I think that I understand now what I can expect from this rifle. The answer to my initial question was Yes, expecting 1MOA might be more than it could deliver, but I should be able to get to 2 MOA or a bit better with the right load development.

With the right load I believe that you ought to be able to do better than 2moa. I used to shoot a lot of smokeless in .45-70 using jacketed bullets. My rifles generally liked the Hornady 350gr round nose. My load was just a hair over Hodgdon's starting load for lever guns using IMR 3031. It will be in your desired velocity range with that barrel length I believe. I rarely shoot jacketed and smokeless these days as I've fallen for the BPCR game. With cast bullets and smokeless I've found that slower is often better. A 405gr gas checked bullet with 25gr of SR 4759 shoots quite well in all of my .45-70's. For higher speeds, the same bullet with 46 to 47gr of Reloder7 seemed to produce good accuracy. That's a pretty stout load. More than I'd want to shoot through my Marlins but fine for your 1885. I also have a pair of Miroku 1885s. The twist rate on the non-bpcr models is 1-20. Mine does not shoot long bullets worth beans. I stick with the 405gr gas checked bullet.

Chris.

[Chill Wills]

I also have a pair of Miroku 1885s. The twist rate on the non-bpcr models is 1-20. Mine does not shoot long bullets worth beans. I stick with the 405gr gas checked bullet. Chris.

Gunlaker, you make a good point. If, and I assume you are correct, XTR's rifle is twisted 1 in 20" like the old Creedmoor rifles of 1874, He may or may not have the very best accuracy with the heavy weights. BUT, I still think a 500gr Government Round Nose or Lyman Postell that rides the lands could be made to shoot 1 moa - 2moa with out going nuts with load development.
As you likely know, the old dead guys shot 550PP bullets to 1000ys with the twenty twist.
XTR is not ready to join the dark side where the fun really starts, so either SR-4759 or AA-5744 in charges somewhere between 22 and 25 grains would would show off this rifle's accuracy. The Lyman 457-193 could do it too but I would bet on the Gov. RN for 200y shooting.:-D
Stay warm, spring is coming.

[Don McDowell]

Get ahold of some bullets cast from the Saeco 645 mould, seat them to the driving band, and run those at 1200-1230 fps, and watch things come alive.

[Gunlaker]

Get ahold of some bullets cast from the Saeco 645 mould, seat them to the driving band, and run those at 1200-1230 fps, and watch things come alive.

I might have to pick up one of those moulds one of these days. My Shiloh LRE seems to really like bullets from the 745 mould when cast in 25:1.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Chris my Shiloh, C Sharps and my wifes hiwall all really get along well with that bullet. I was told about that bullet from a fella at Baker Mt, he really swore by it and by golly he was right. Works great to 1023 yds. Might even go past that, just haven't shot it further as yet...

[geargnasher]

Get all the copper out. Don't shoot copper anymore. Make an impact slug of the chamber and throat. Make your loaded case "neck" diameter have less than .001" clearance to the chamber neck by sizing the boolit accordingly. Use heavier boolits, at least 500-grain, maybe even try the one Don McDowell mentioned (haven't shot that one myself) and quit trying for light boolits at 2K fps. Also make certain the boolit fits the throat. Cast them from a heat-treated low-antimony alloy. Do some research here on duplex powder loading with Reloder 7 as a "kicker". That's about as much as I can tell you to help with smokeless powder accuracy, the rest is in the details of loading technique. If you really want to see what it can do, try real gunpowder!

Gear

[EDG]

>>Noted, that's something I did not know, does this apply to cast only or jacketed bullets too? <<
I got excellent accuracy out of jacketed bullets at with the old Elmer Keith load for the 1886. It was 53 grains of 3031 with a 400 grain bullet. This is NOT a load recommendation for older weaker rifles or older weaker men.
I have also gotten good accuracy from 500 grain jacketed bullets in a 45-70 but they produce too much recoil at the higher velocities.

[TXGunNut]

2. This is a hunting rifle. This is not a target rifle. I have no desire to shoot BP, the cleaning on my muzzle loader is enough to reinforce that. I posted quite clearly that I was looking for a load that will give me ~2100 from a 300 to 350 or ~1600 from a 405. That 350 load gives me a 1.5 mil drop at 200 yards and 2.5 mils at 250 yards from a 100 yard zero. That makes for accurate hold overs and accurate shot placement if I can get it to work. It is my expectation that I could find a node somewhere between 2000 and 2200 for a 300 to 350 class bullet. -XTR


As others have pointed out the 45-70 seems happiest at velocities substantially below the ones you seek to attain. I've tried loads in those ranges and it was unpleasant for me and accuracy suffered as well. Long range for me is 150 yds so boolit drop is not a factor. Long range shooting with a 45-70 is more about being familiar with trajectory, not trying to minimize it. Low-speed big bore leverguns and SS rifles are a nice change of pace from bolt guns and bottle-neck cartridges. Don't rule out BP; when properly loaded it cleans up faster and easier than any bolt gun I've fired with smokeless and J-bullets. Honest. Once you get them figured out they'll always have a special place in your heart...and gun safe.

[NSB]

I just got in from shooting all day. I spent a lot of time today working with my Winchester/Miroku High Wall in 45-70. Just about every load I shot today with 405 grain JHP bullets at 1200-1400fps shot just under or just over an inch for five shots at 100yds. I still haven't gotten it to shoot cast but I'm working on it. As I said earlier, lower velocities shoot very well in this gun. As the speed goes up the groups open up in my experience. If you really want high velocity and flatter trajectory I think you've just picked the wrong platform to work with. As others have said, it's a game of knowing your gun, trajectory, and distance to the target. It just isn't going to be a flat shooting tack driver. You probably could sell it easily enough and get something better suited to your expectations, or just enjoy it for what it is. It really is a game of its own.

[MtGun44]

Try Rem 405 Jbullets over 57 gr of W748. This is a load that works very well for me
and you should be using a scope with at least 4 power for load development. More
is better for bench work. How steady are you, how good is the trigger? Cheap scopes
bounce the internals around at each shot and can add a couple MOA to the group
because the crosshairs reset their position a bit at each shot.

The load above runs about 1750 fps, yet is low pressure, OK for trapdoors. I use
a mag primer to ensure ignition, but have not carefully tested whether reg primers
would give the same results.

Bill

[torpedoman]

first thing i would do is try imr4198 powder it just seems to work better in 45-70.

[calkar]

Take a good chamber cast and you will probably find a crooked throat, I fought with a Rem 700 for a year. Understood after looking at chamber cast. Every boolit was damaged upon firing.

[XTR]

Finally got around to slugging my barrel.

0.456 bore

So for shooting cast boolits what size should they be? I've got a bunch of .458/9 cast, should I be running them in a .457 sizer? or is .458 a good fit?

[45r]

My win sporter shoots every boolit pretty good sized 459.My mold from BRP,Mtn Mold, and several factory molds shoot 1 inch 3 shot groups with 5 going under 2 inch easy.My sporter will shoot 1 inch groups using sierra 300 grain condum bullets over 51 grains IMR 4198.I've found my sporter to be pretty easy to shoot well and like it.Single shot rifles like leverguns need to be tucked in with both hands and the front of the forestock on the front bag just enough to steady the crosswires.Any pressure put on the stocks and any change in hold will mess up groups.Kinda hard to explain but once you get a consistantant hold with no down pressures you'll see the groups get good.Two piece stocked rifles need their own type of bench shooting.

[PanaDP]

Since you've got no throat, why don't you try a bore diameter paper patched bullet over as much black powder as the case will hold. That's pretty much how that rifle was originally designed to shoot.

[August]

With a HEAVY barrel, lead projectiles, and black powder propellant, they'll keep up with most modern rifles.

[rbertalotto]

Let me chime in here..........

I have five 45-70 rifles (six if you count my Double Rifle, but that's another conversation). I have the following:

Pedersoli 1874 Sharps
Pedersoli 1871 Rolling Block
1886 Winchester TD (Japan)
1895 Marlin CB
And
1885 Winchester BPCR with the fancy Badger barrel, beautiful wood etc.

The worse accuracy is with the 1885 Winchester. All the other rifles will out shoot it no matter what I use for ammunition.

I put an $800 modern scope on the 1885 for load development, I put a Malcolm scope on it to be "Period Correct", I recently installed a Lee Shaver tang and globe. I've tried just about every bullet you can think would shoot well. Most I cast myself and folks from this forum have sent me some. I've used various alloys and lubes.

When ever I go to the range, I bring the 1885 and one of the others. Shooting the same ammo all the other rifles will shoot under 3" at 100 yards and the 1885 will shoot two or three close and but the rest of the 5 shot group will open it up to 8".

I'm going to rechamber my 1885 with a reamer I'm having ground just like the Pedersoli chambers. There is zero freebore in the Winchester 1885. NONE! I have to load Lyman 457-125 so deep that they intrude on the powder room.

Lately I started shooting Black Powder. The 1885 started to respond very favorably. But still not close to the Pedersolis. The Pedersoli Sharps, with black powder and the Lyman 457-125 with SPG lube is a freak'n benchrest rifle. It wears a long Malcolm scope and it will shoot under 1" at 100 yards for five shots! Simply amazing rifle. I haven't had the rolling block long enough, and it has a terrible trigger (the Sharps has a set trigger), but it is showing very good promise.

So to answer your question......Me and others I've talked to with these fancy Winchester 1885 rifles are frustrated. These are not inexpensive guns, but it's embarrassing when rifles that cost half as much out shoot them.

But this is what makes all this fun.................right?

[Don McDowell]

Your loads for that winchester bpcr, must really be junk, either that or you've got the thing so full of lead the barrel is more like a water pipe. I've yet to see one of those rifles that isn't capable of going from the box to the firing line and being in the top placing rifles....
Matter of fact that's just exactly what the one I bought for my wife did. Using loads that had been worked up for a C Sharps it shot really really well. When I built bp loads specifically for that rifle it's just simply amazing how well it shoots. Have yet to put any smokeless thru it probably never will.

[Chill Wills]

rbertalotto, Check and see if that rifle IS a 45-70.
Also, you got me wondering. One rifle might be a lemon but a bunch that you know of that don't group ??????????? that makes me wonder...

As Don said, you might really work on that bore and get all the lead out.

Failing that, For the right price I will take it off your hands.

All the best,

[Gunlaker]

Roy sometimes these rifles can be tricky to get to shoot. I have one of those BPCR's but I haven't shot it much so have no idea how well it will ultimately work. But they often do quite well in the Silhouette matches when I read the results in the BPCN.

As an example of how tricky thay can be, I have a C. Sharps 1885 in .45-70 that simply refused to group under about 2.5 moa with traditional lead bullets and black powder. This particular rifle was not an example of CSA's best work for a few reasons. I joined the "mould of the month" club and tried everything I could think of. On the advice of others I did a chamber cast. I found that the freebore on this rifle was significantly larger than groove diameter. After exchanging some messages with Dan Theodore I had a mould made by Steve Brooks that fits the freebore and has the first two band at bore diameter. First time at the range with the new bullet it put seven shots into about 3/4" of vertical at 100m.

I think that in this game it's easy to get a rifle shooting well if the chamber is cut just right. If the chamber is not, then you've got a tougher time, but then it's time to break out the Cerrosafe and do some investigating.

With respect to the Browning BPCR I do know that mine also has no significant freebore as well. I do have a feeling that it will shoot paper patched bullets well, particularly if they are seated way out.

Chris.

[Texantothecore]

The high mass bullets such as the .45-70 do well in the 950 to 1200 hundred fps range. One of my friends who shoots long range claims that his Highwall has never had a bullet of 1000 FPS through the barrel.

You might also try the Lyman Postell at 535 grns.

[XTR]

quick update

Range time today with the 45-70, finally. F class comps and practice get most of my time this time of yr.

I learned a couple of things.

If I am going to shoot cast 405s I need to lighten the loads more. The 80 degree weather today probably contributed some but all my loads were hotter than I expected, and I fired nothing that I would consider a "group" unless getting it on the target stand counts. I made up loads with both Meister and Oregon Trial 405s with 3 different loads with 3 different powders.

The Oregon Trail laser cast were really all over the place, not even on an 8.5x11 sheet, and the MVs had a lot of ES. The Meisters did better, the ES were reasonable, but were still just keeping all the shots on the paper.

That said, I was getting MVs of ~1700 from the loads, I was looking for 1500 to 1600.

I did get my 300 gn jacketed to print about 2.5 to 3" groups at 2100FPS which is still 100 FPS faster than I was shooting for. Both of those had one flyer that broke the group otherwise they were 2" or less. I had 3 loads with two powders that I thought would bracket 2000 and both were 2100 at the lowest charge so back to the drawing board wth that one but I did get decent groups.

I went to the range with close to 90 rounds loaded, and I ended up with a lot of bullets to pull down before I try again. Once I saw the MVs I was getting with the lowest loads I never did run through a ladder.

I wasn't shooting like I was trying to fend off a Comanche raiding party, but I was pounding away pretty quickly. The barrel got warmed up till I started noticing mirage in the scope. So, all things considered I'm happier. I think the problems I've had with the 350 J bullets is because the ogive is too short and they hit the lands the 300s taper quickly so they get a good little jump to the lands.

I think my cast problems are 2 fold. The nose on the Oregon Trail being to big and jamming in the lands of having to be seated silly deep, and pushing them too fast.

[Just Duke]

Get all the copper out. Don't shoot copper anymore. Make an impact slug of the chamber and throat. Make your loaded case "neck" diameter have less than .001" clearance to the chamber neck by sizing the boolit accordingly.

Use heavier boolits, at least 500-grain,

and quit trying for light boolits at 2K fps.

Gear

What he said

Should mic out .458. Mine are all dead on.

[torpedoman]

Shooting fundamentals are the same for 22LR or 45-70. What will need to be different?

you can law that 22 in your palm and shoot fine groups all day.
Now that 45-70 just ain't gonna work thata way. you grip on the forearm is going to have to be tight and consistent to control muzzle rose with recoil you are going to have to be very consistent with it to get good groups.
just over 2 in group at 200 yds is a great group. what big game animal has a heart smaller than 2 inches that this degree of accuracy would cause you to miss?

[405]

XTR,
I usually don't get into these large dog piles but... what the hey. Usually those Miroku guns are very well made. I've seen them shoot cast extremely well. There is an off chance that you have a lemon. But I doubt it. Next, comparing these large caliber, single shots to high power, scoped bench guns is like apples to oranges. I noticed you said you slugged the bore and got .456". I assume you mean you measured the groove diameter?? That sounds really fairly tight... and it could be exactly that- dunno? Next you mentioned Oregon Trail and Meister. I don't know any serious cast bullet target shooter using those. Next, I notice you take a lot of different rounds to the range and shoot and shoot and shoot. Also, you mix copper and lead shooting. All the above leads me to believe you may need to slow down and do one thing at a time and really study the advice of those who do shoot small groups with these type guns. Then put all the stuff you have learned as a habit about high power, Jbullet, accurate, high velocity target shooting far in the back of your mind. This stuff is different.

The 45-70 and other old, big, slow cast bullet shooting, blackpowder era type cartridges and guns seem to always do better in those parameters than in those of the high vel, high pressure modern Jbullet. Clean the slate. Re-slug the bore with a well lubed, soft slug just to verify that .456". If that number is correct, you'd probably be better off with a gas checked bullet sized to .456-7" loaded to about 1250 fps and a BHN of 11 and no harder than about 14. A powder like 5744 is ideal for doing that job. Bullets in the 400-425 gr range are as good as any to start with. If they don't work then maybe try a 500 grainer. Beware! some bullets that "look sexy" don't always prove to be so. The Lyman 457671 GC looks so good yet shoots poorly in every rifle I have and has been tried by other shooters I know with the same poor result. Yet, the common un-sexy RCBS 405FN GC seems to shoot well in everything! Load no more than 10. Go to the range. Set up with a good rest. Put up a target suitable for a precise sight picture at 100 yards. Shoot 2 or 3 into a "sighter bull" to foul and warm the bore. Shoot the remainder into the scoring bull, pacing the shots about a minute apart. Clean the bore! Record the results. Change one thing at a time until a "pattern" of accurate combinations emerges. If followed and the above formula doesn't work, then nothing will and the gun may be broke. If you expect 3/4" groups at 300 yards at 2000 fps+ velocities then this is not the way to get there. That's best left for the high power Jbullet guys shooting custom 6BRs and the like. If you want MOA, then these older style cast bullet guns and cartridges should get there. Good Luck!

[XTR]

What he said

Should mic out .458. Mine are all dead on.





Have you calculated the drop on that 500gn bullet at 200 yards?

I clearly stated that I want this rifle to hunt to 200 yards. It will take a three foot hold over from a 100 yard zero for that 500gn boolit at 200, that Hornady 300gn hp on the other hand is only a 12 inch hold over at 2000FPS. At 2000 fps I can hold over .5 mils at 150 and 1.5 at 200 and be dead on. My goal stated somewhere early in this thread is for this to be my go to deer rifle here in TN. I hunt fields that shots at 150 are common and 200 is not uncommon. (and in seasons past I used either my 50cal muzzle loader or a 308win)

I have figured out how to make this rifle do what I want it to do now. If I can get a cast bullet to work out to 200 with a reasonable holdover and I define reasonable at about 3 to 3.5 mils, then I'll shoot one; otherwise I'm going to try to find where cast loads work but that's just for my own information and target practice. Maybe later I'll get a Sharps or a BPCR to get serious with cast. I shoot at 1000 yards about 4 or 5 times a month now with my F class rifle and have access to the range whenever I have time. The idea of vernier sights and a long barreled BPCR appeal to me, but it will have to wait till I'm tired of F class.

[XTR]

405, I've learned a lot about this rifle in the last 4 months. The zero throat was a surprise to me. This is not a BPCR, this is a 24" Sporter. They were apparently a special run for Davidsons. The lack of throat, which I have learned is SAMMI spec and it is the same in both types of rifle, makes it very hard to load anything with a fat nose. I can't seat most boolits or bullets at normal lengths. Look at that picture of the casting, that's exactly what my rifle looks like.

I've asked the question about what accuracy to expect here and at the ASSRA boards and what I'm reading is that with these straight sided cartridges 2MOA is good. Target shooters with heavy barrels and doing everything that they can to tighten it up can get better but it takes a lot more. but again I'm not looking to punch paper with this it's for shooting white tails.

I've got 2MOA now with j bullets at velocities that will get me to where I want to be, and I can honestly say looking at the horizontal stringing in one of the groups that was me. I know I can be seriously OCD about some stuff, and shooting feeds that, but today I feed that monkey with a 308 sporting a 30" barrel, a 32 x NF and trying to read wind so I can hit a 5" X-ring at 1000 yards. In a few years, maybe it will be casting and shooting some kind of BPCR.

One thing I am considering is paper patching cast to get up to the velocities that I am looking for, and I haven't tried my 340GC boolits yet either, if I could get that up to 1800 it might do what I'm looking for.

[XTR]

These are 100 yard groups. I don't understand the obvious low flyers, did it in both groups. I have to work on that.

This is 56 gn of H 322 and a MV of 2127 avg. I'm sure the horizontal is probably me. The flyer ehh?!

http://www.onlinehumidor.com/forum/gallery/1_05_04_12_12_09_29.jpg

This is 300JHP over 48gn of IMR4198 MV 2104 avg

http://www.onlinehumidor.com/forum/gallery/1_05_04_12_12_11_10.jpg

The low flyers are probably me. Both loads put the first shot in the red. The rifle was heated up by this point I was dealing with mirage from the barrel. These were shot after my shoulder was pretty sore from a bunch of cast shots, but I personally hate people who post a picture of 5 shots and talk about the 3 shot group in the middle, disregard the flyers... yea right; however, these tell do me that I have a bullet that I can work to. Shooting these I'm holding on tight to an eight and a half pound rifle that is about to buck like a rodeo bronc, so I'm sure I impart some dispersion. The horizontal in the H322 group is surely me, the vertical stringing in the IMR group I'm less sure of.

I'll eventually get the load dialed at 100 and do some 200 yard shooting.

[Texantothecore]

Do you remember the sequence of bullets fired for each target?

Were the low hitters in the last of the shots?

[Don McDowell]

You've got a gawdawful lot of vertical especially for powder burn close you're shooting.
1. reevaluate your rest
2. Why not slow those bullets down to where the twist in the barrel was original designed to shoot them at. ie bring the 300's down to 1600 , and the 405's to 13 and not over 1400.

[XTR]

You've got a gawdawful lot of vertical especially for powder burn close you're shooting.
1. reevaluate your rest
2. Why not slow those bullets down to where the twist in the barrel was original designed to shoot them at. ie bring the 300's down to 1600 , and the 405's to 13 and not over 1400.

1. I agree the vertical is me I'll work on that. At the point I fired these groups I'd already fired about 25 405s that were pushing 1700FPS, my shoulder was (and still is) tender by then.

2. look up 5 posts to my response to DUKE NUKEM.

[Don McDowell]

Your talking to someone that regularly shoots to 1000 yds with a 45-70. If to much drop at 200 yds is your problem, you need to go to a different cartridge or get a good ladder sight.
Go with the trapdoor data in your rifle accuracy will likely greatly improove, and you can learn to deal with the drop.
45-70 500 gr bullet 135 yds , 1 shot antelope season was over.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/Hunting2010004.jpg

[XTR]

Your talking to someone that regularly shoots to 1000 yds with a 45-70. If to much drop at 200 yds is your problem, you need to go to a different cartridge or get a good ladder sight.
Go with the trapdoor data in your rifle accuracy will likely greatly improove, and you can learn to deal with the drop.
45-70 500 gr bullet 135 yds , 1 shot antelope season was over.


Nice 'lope, but 135 is only about an 8" drop or about one mil. I regularly (as in 5 days a month with comps and practice) shoot a 308 to 1000 yards, but I wouldn't consider a hunting shot with one beyond about 600, and reasonably keep it to under 300, and none of that is relative to a 200 yard shot with an 1100fps heavy at 200 yards. Your 135 yard 8 inch hold over at 135 is still on fur from 100, at 200 you are talking about about 36 inches, that's two fees above the target, and on live targets that's not in my plan.

The fact is that I can in fact get this to do what I want, and when I dial 300 to 350s down to 1800 to 2000 it will be fine. THat is where I was shooting for with this load sequence but I was using my 350 load data and shooting 300s on an 80 degree afternoon and came in about 200 FPS faster than I had targeted.

While we are trading pictures. Opening day of muzzle loader season in TN. Shooting a 50 cal Knight rolling block with 250gn sabots over 100 gn of Triple 7, We can get up to 13 a season if we take all the does we can shoot in Archery, Muzzle Loader and Rifle + 3 bucks.

128 and 135 yards.

http://www.onlinehumidor.com/forum/gallery/1_05_04_12_10_26_31.jpg

[Don McDowell]

Actually the bullet hit right where I intended, on top of the front sight. At 150 I use a dead center hold, at 200 I stand the ladder up and go back to 6 oclock hold.

Suit yourself on the velocity, but when you get real serious about getting something resembling accuracy out of that rifle you'll drop the velocity down to where it was originally designed and built some 120+ years before folks decided to try and make it a .458 winchester lite.

[EDG]

>>two fees above the target, and on live targets that's not in my plan.<<

The hold over is a lot easier to deal with than getting both accuracy and 2000 FPS out of a 350 to 400 grain cast bullet.
Or you can do what I have done a few times, carry two rifles.

[XTR]

EDG, the 2000FPS is with jacketed. With 405s I'm looking for 1600 and with 340 GCs I'm looking for 1800. If I can get either the 354s to 1800 or the 405s to 1600 then I won't have a reason to bother with jacketed.

Right now I'm putting together an experiment in paper patched 405s to see if I can get where I want to be with them. If I cant then I'll work up a target load with them.

I'm pretty sure I've stated that goal at least twice if not 3 times in this thread.

[EDG]

You have stated things and you have goals. You have repeated that several times.

>>I've asked the question about what accuracy to expect here and at the ASSRA boards and what I'm reading is that with these straight sided cartridges 2MOA is good. Target shooters with heavy barrels and doing everything that they can to tighten it up can get better but it takes a lot more. but again I'm not looking to punch paper with this it's for shooting white tails.<<

Slow it down to about 1100 FPS. If your bullets start off at supersonic velocities and then drop down through the sound barrier on the way to your target they go through transonic buffeting. That is something you never deal with shooting your F class rifle. See if you can figure out how to get all the way to the target above the speed of sound.

[XTR]

You have stated things and you have goals. You have repeated that several times.

>>I've asked the question about what accuracy to expect here and at the ASSRA boards and what I'm reading is that with these straight sided cartridges 2MOA is good. Target shooters with heavy barrels and doing everything that they can to tighten it up can get better but it takes a lot more. but again I'm not looking to punch paper with this it's for shooting white tails.<<

Slow it down to about 1100 FPS. If your bullets start off at supersonic velocities and then drop down through the sound barrier on the way to your target they go through transonic buffeting. That is something you never deal with shooting your F class rifle. See if you can figure out how to get all the way to the target above the speed of sound.

I'm real familiar with the problems that a lot of bullets have when they go transonic. I have a feeling, just a hunch that the big blunt heavy 405s don't exhibit that problem, an example is the difference in the 168 and 175 Sierra Matchking bullets. The 168 has a short tail and tumbles when it goes transonic and in generally doesn't have the BC to get to 1000 yards, where as the 175 on the other hand is generally stable through the transonic zone.

At sea level and 75 degrees a 405 with a MV of 1600 should stay SS to about 190 yards. At 1000 feet and 45 degrees and it's SS all the way to 200.

In any case, I'm going to experiment and see where it lands.

[bowfin]

I'm real familiar with the problems that a lot of bullets have when they go transonic. I have a feeling, just a hunch that the big blunt heavy 405s don't exhibit that problem,

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g184/artsmom/800px-FA-18_Hornet_breaking_sound_barrier_7_July_1999.jpg

This F-18 Hornet weighs more than 405 grains, and it notices when it goes above or below the speed of sound.

[hickstick_10]

Why not just purchase Paul Mathews book "40 years with the 45-70"

He's basically covered most things that your trying with a single shot, with the exact same problems of throat, lead and so forth and so on. His tinkering with hot 45-70 loads with the lighter pills are covered thoroughly including paper patching hunting bullets for jacketed velocities. His launch pad was usually a ruger no 1 or no 3 but your new highwall should be able to take similar loads (being chambered for 375s, 300 mags and the various WSM)

Books cheap and saves alot of time to get what you want.

[XTR]

Why not just purchase Paul Mathews book "40 years with the 45-70"

He's basically covered most things that your trying with a single shot, with the exact same problems of throat, lead and so forth and so on. His tinkering with hot 45-70 loads with the lighter pills are covered thoroughly including paper patching hunting bullets for jacketed velocities. His launch pad was usually a ruger no 1 or no 3 but your new highwall should be able to take similar loads (being chambered for 375s, 300 mags and the various WSM)

Books cheap and saves alot of time to get what you want.

Thanks, on the way along with The Paper Jacket.

I'm not trying to make a 458Win or even a 458Win lite out of it. In the Lyman manual the loads I'm working with are in the lever action section, nothing I'm doing is in the Ruger #1/Siamese section. (on that note I know where there is a beautiful Siamese Mauser in 45-70 for sale right now. Don't know what I'd need to shoot with it but it is pretty.

[45r]

Your 300HP's are trying to shoot.Go up to 51 grains on the IMR 4198.Try 5744 with the 405 grain boolits.I'm never going to sell my sporter,it shoots far better than what I'm reading here.I must have got a real good one.

[XTR]

Things are getting better. One too many trips to the range that left my shoulder hurting for a week afterwards and I picked up a good recoil pad (the kind you wear).

Yesterday the J-bullets groups were much better, and I can see where my breathing is causing the horizontal so that's a nut behind the gun problem.

Shortly I'll have some shooting done with PP 405s. I'm really interested to see how they do at about 1600, which is my goal, once I get those worked out I'll play with some cast 350s and PP and see if I can get that to work. (really don't need to sling 405s to kill white tails.)

[XTR]

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g184/artsmom/800px-FA-18_Hornet_breaking_sound_barrier_7_July_1999.jpg

This F-18 Hornet weighs more than 405 grains, and it notices when it goes above or below the speed of sound.


There are huge difference between the effects of the transonic region on a bullet that is gyroscopically stabilized and a plane with control surfaces.

There are bullets that transition very well and others like the 168SMK that become wildly unstable. The heavier 338s to well, as do the big 50s from a BMG, and both the 175 and 220 SMK in 30cal seems to transition pretty well too.

[Don McDowell]

Things are getting better. One too many trips to the range that left my shoulder hurting for a week afterwards and I picked up a good recoil pad (the kind you wear).

Yesterday the J-bullets groups were much better, and I can see where my breathing is causing the horizontal so that's a nut behind the gun problem.

Shortly I'll have some shooting done with PP 405s. I'm really interested to see how they do at about 1600, which is my goal, once I get those worked out I'll play with some cast 350s and PP and see if I can get that to work. (really don't need to sling 405s to kill white tails.)

I would suggest you stick with the grease grooves and jacketed bullets until you get the accuracy issues with those resolved.
Paper patch in that chamber will work fine, but it may take you a lot of ammunition before you can actually get anything worth calling accurate, especially at the high velocity goals you're setting.

[Swampman]

I've owned a huge pile of .45-70s and I've never owned one that wouldn't shoot MOA. Some of mine shoot 1/2 MOA with cast boolits. How does it shoot with Remington 405 grain factory ammo?

[Don McDowell]

Swampy that's not the same story you've been telling the fellers over on 24 hr......

[XTR]

I've owned a huge pile of .45-70s and I've never owned one that wouldn't shoot MOA. Some of mine shoot 1/2 MOA with cast boolits. How does it shoot with Remington 405 grain factory ammo?


I've read a lot of accuracy claims on the web. To read it you'd think a GAP 308 shoots one hole groups by itself, no glass required, or claims like yours of accuracy from 45-70s. I've also decided that I own the slowest barrels ever produced by either Rock Creek or Krieger because with 175s and 185s my 30" barrel shoots slower than what I read people claiming to get with 20" tubes.

Then I get people who post more realistic answers like some of the people who have posted on this thread to say that 2MOA is pretty good for a straight sided case.


At this point my answer is post up the targets. If you don't have the paper it never happened.

[Swampman]

Swampy that's not the same story you've been telling the fellers over on 24 hr......


I'm not sure what you're talking about. My .45-70s are all highly accurate. In fact is almost impossible to find a load that won't shoot well in a .45-70. My buddy has a new Winchester 1885 in .45-70 and it's a tack driver.

[XTR]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. My .45-70s are all highly accurate. In fact is almost impossible to find a load that won't shoot well in a .45-70. My buddy has a new Winchester 1885 in .45-70 and it's a tack driver.

Post the 100 yard groups. :bigsmyl2:

[Swampman]

My 1st 3 shots at 100 yards using 30 grains of IMR-4198 and a 405 grain Georgia Arms cast bullet. Unique and the 340 grain Lee bullet shoots just as well. This kind of accuracy has been typical of every .45-70 I've ever owned. I wouldn't own a 2 MOA rifle for long.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/Woodsman1956/Ruger/100_0478.jpg

[XTR]

Please don't take this as slinging at you, but 3 shot groups are pretty meaningless, and one buy itself is even more so. Put three 5 shot groups on the same page and we're talking about consistent accuracy.

Secondly it's been hashed to death all over this thread that I am trying to get more MV than that load. Loading 30 grains of 4198 is in the 1100FPS range. It's a lower load than anything listed in the Lyman manual for any version of the 45-70. I'm looking for 1600FPS in a 405.

Want to see why, go out and with out making any adjustments to your scope put that same load on paper at 200 yards.

My 300gn J bullets currently chrono at 2000 to 2150 depending on the load.


What I have learned and is that the info in this thread is correct that you can't sling grease grove cast boolits faster than about 1200.

[Swampman]

In my Lyman manual it's a hotter than any Trapdoor load listed. Of course mine is from the 1970s. 30gr of IMR-4198 will give 1300, +/- fps with 405gr bullets and pressures at 20,000 psi or so. Since I only shoot one shot while hunting, three shot groups seem like plenty to me. Stick with jackets if you're gonna make a .458 Winchester out of it.

[XTR]

The 49th edition Lyman shows a minimum load for the 1873 Springfield of 31.5gn of IMR 4198 makes 1312 and 12400 CUP


Stick with jackets if you're gonna make a .458 Winchester out of it.

That's the second reference to the 458 win from someone on this thread, and it's a preposterous comparison when you look at what I'm trying to accomplish. A 458 typically pushes heavier bullets nearly double the muzzle energy.




Again, I challenge you to go put that load on paper at 100 and at 200 in consecutive shots w/i dialing your scope. In case you've never looked it has nearly 3 feet of drop. Maybe hunting in the palmettos in Fla you don't need to shoot 200 yards, but I have no use for a rifle that I can't make a holdover to 200 yards with out a ladder or a vernier.

[Swampman]

Well whatever you do nothing will beat IMR-4198 for accuracy. I'd start low and keep moving up until accuracy falls off. You have to feed a firearm what it likes. The .45-70 has a rainbow trajectory no matter how fast you push it. You just have to learn how to hit with it. I'm only interested in best accuracy myself. Good Luck!

[XTR]

So I finally got my copy of "40 years with the .45-70" and read thru it.

All I have to say is that the folks here who keep saying to load to 1100fps would burn Mr. Matthews as a heretic. He seriously pushed his loads. Seems if it wasn't 2000FPS or better he wasn't happy, and in a Ruger #3 the man must have a steel shoulder.

Oh and his accuracy looks about like has been described, about 1.5 to 2 MOA at 100 yards.

I think I'm going to be happy with my PP boolits. I've looked at 405s and now I;m loading up some patched 350s, if I can get them to work at 1800 plus or minus 25 I'll have about a perfect load.

[Swampman]

I love Mr. Matthews book and read it often. I see no point in shooting loads as hot as the ones he used here in North America. Dead is dead....

[rbertalotto]

What I have learned and is that the info in this thread is correct that you can't sling grease grove cast boolits faster than about 1200.

Huh? Better tell my 1886 Winchester and my 1895 Marlin this. My gas checked, Ranch Dog, 425 grain bullets are running at 1600 fps with sub 2" groups with tang sight (multiple 5 shot groups at 100 yds) And 4198 or RL7 are my powders of choice.

[725]

rbertalotto -

Interested in if you use a filler with the 4198? My concerns are over the possibility of ringing the chamber. Thoughts?

[9.3X62AL]

Late to this party.

Ruger #1 owner here, 45-70. With loads it likes at 100 yards it is an honest 1.5" rifle, 10 shots. The cold/clean barrel shot is within that group, too. Considering the size of game to be taken with the combination (deer and larger, to 150 yards), 1.5 MOA is overkill. The 45-70 isn't a varmint round.

Just keeping it real.

[bigted]

just an encouraging thought...those paperpatch are gonna ruin you sir!!! they will take your will to live anyplace but behind the buttstock of your rifle. they are GREAT in my humble opinion. yes they will take some tinkering but with them and the rite combo you just might find what your looking for. dosnt matter whether shooting blackpowder or smokless i get goo to great results with the "patch to groove" diameter boolits and slicks will do better in my opinion but for hunting my 457643 420 grain lymans sized down to .452 and patched back up to .4585 are doing well with either my duplex loads or with the smokless loads.

as Don suggested tho...they can give fits till the rite combo is reached but they will allow the upper velocity loads that you wish for and will do it without any messy lube to deal with.

by the time i have them casted and inspected for good boolits...i weigh them and keep them in within 1 grain groups...then i run em thru my .452 lee die to ensure purfect roundness...then i wrap em with 9 pound onion skin from baco wet and allow em to dry for 12+ hours or just throw em in the oven that has been pre-heated to 180 degrees then shut off the oven and put em in for 1/2 hour and presto...next i meassure them to ensure they are all going into the same range of my self imposed .0005 inch for consistancy...by the time i load em they are very friendly with me and each responds to the kind names i give em...ok nough of the goofys...they take a bit longer to mess with but it is worth it to me with the poof of scattered confetti out the front end when the shot goes off.

so what i end up with is boolits that weigh within a grain of each other...thats + 5 tenths and - 5 tenths. boolits that are perfectly round. and the end meassurement in diameter is within .0005 inch of each other. i use 3031 and rl-7 for my smokless loads and cartridge from goex for my duplex loads. these can be gentle on you or rough...its all up to how much you want/can tollerate in the recoil dept.

good luck with your patchin and there is a good posting on either the blackpowder patchin place here or what i recomend is for you to go to the smokless patchin threads as there is a bunch of good//meduim///bad advise there but will get you over the hump if ya gets stuck along the way. the smokless is going to be more what your looking for im bettin and there is bunchs of threads up there for a good read for about as many hours as your eyes can stand.

[XTR]

The 45-70 isn't a varmint round.

Just keeping it real.

As a funny aside, my hunting partner shot a 'yote through the top of the head from his deer stand with a 450 Marlin. He died.

[bigted]

LOL...who died...the coyote or your partner???

[Shooter]

Why do you people keep hurting yourself?
Velocity isn't everything.

[XTR]

Went and sent some PP 350s and some GC 340s into paper this afternoon.

All the loads were in the 1750 to 1850 FPS range. Shooting over 40.0 to 40.6 gn of IMR4198

I really need to figure out what is causing my horizontal distribution. I had one 5 shot group with my PP 350s that put the first shot 3 inches left, then 3 shots all touching inside of one of the 1" grids on the target then the last shot went 2.5 inches right, but none of it has more than 1.5 inches of vertical. I'm pretty certain that the load is MOA accurate, but my form, or the hold on the rest or something is not right. Sometimes it is the first shot, sometimes it's the 3rd, there is no rhyme or reason. I've moved around while looking through the scope, breathing won't move it that far, I've got a good NPA. I can close my eyes for 5 seconds and I'm still on target when I open them. Maybe it's the angle of my shoulder behind the rifle at the bench.


I got one GC group that was about a 2.5 inch oval so that's actually an improvement over some of my trips. Oh, and getting a Magnum plus recoil pad was a good idea.

[bearcove]

I thought I wrote this part somewhere.

This is a hunting rifle.

Got this far and stopped. (half way down page #2)

He's doing 2"@100 yards. With a carbine length barrel 24". ITS a 45-70.

What are you hunting prarrie dogs?

[Chill Wills]

Went and sent some PP 350s and some GC 340s into paper this afternoon.
I really need to figure out what is causing my horizontal distribution.

You've accounted for everything but the WIND in your narration.

That would do it.

[XTR]

Wind was calm, and it would have to be blowing pretty damned hard to open up a 5 inches at 100 yards.


Got this far and stopped. (half way down page #2)

He's doing 2"@100 yards. With a carbine length barrel 24". ITS a 45-70.

What are you hunting prarrie dogs?

Two inches at 100 yds is four or more at 200, and that's getting in the realm of unreliable shot placement as far as I'm concerned. Most people can't duplicate bench accuracy in the field, so four inches at 200 is probably more like six, or more, and that is about as big a miss factor as I'm willing to tolerate.

[bearcove]

Its called hunting, get closer if you feel the need.

[Don McDowell]

Wind was calm, and it would have to be blowing pretty damned hard to open up a 5 inches at 100 yards.



Two inches at 100 yds is four or more at 200, and that's getting in the realm of unreliable shot placement as far as I'm concerned. Most people can't duplicate bench accuracy in the field, so four inches at 200 is probably more like six, or more, and that is about as big a miss factor as I'm willing to tolerate.

Not with these large diameter blunt nosed bullets is a 5 inch group at 100 caused by the wind unheard of. A tail wind quartering can cause some real melodramitics, and just because the wind at ground level seems calm doesn't necessarily mean it's the same at the height of that bullet trajectory.
These things aren't the highpower centerfire you are used to shooting.

[EDG]

I had a very accurate load for my 45-70 at the range one day.
I got a few shots that were strung out horizontally. The breeze was on and off at about the same as walking speed - about 4 miles and hour from right to left. I got just about 1 inch of stringing at 100 yards .

[Texantothecore]

You might wish to have someone record a few shots with their phone or camera. I did and when I reviewed it I found that I had picked up a small flinch when I pulled the trigger. Not uncommon in a .45-70 as 30 pounds of recoil is a lot.

[EDG]

Texan,
That might be possible. However my rifle is a BPCR model and weighs about 12 lbs. My load is only about 1050 FPS so the recoil is not a lot. I shot skeet for a long time and I think that pretty well stopped any tendency to flinch.
The 8 1/2 lb skeet gun with 11/8 shot at 1125 seems to be a little more recoil than my rifle although it is easier to manage when standing.

[Texantothecore]

Texan,
That might be possible. However my rifle is a BPCR model and weighs about 12 lbs. My load is only about 1050 FPS so the recoil is not a lot. I shot skeet for a long time and I think that pretty well stopped any tendency to flinch.
The 8 1/2 lb skeet gun with 11/8 shot at 1125 seems to be a little more recoil than my rifle although it is easier to manage when standing.

A friiend taped me and showed the video when i said no way to his statement that I had flinched.

[XTR]

Another load development day at the range with this rifle.

This time I was shooting to get about 1400 to 1450 with Laser Cast 405s.

If you haven't read this whole thread I'm shooting a Win-Mir 1885 with a 24" barrel.
Bore slugs at .450
Grooves at .456
I size my bullets with a Lee sizer, it's supposed to be a .458 but it makes .457 bullets.

I started with loads with 3031. I started loading well below where I though I wanted to end with 4 loads in 0.5 gr steps. Was I in for a surprise.

My lightest load of IMR3031 got me to ~1400FPS, I started with this load to get a good zero for the rest, the first shot was lost, the second I found 7" high, dialed it in and the next 3 printed a 1" group. Maybe I'll look in there again but I did have a lot more spread in my MV than I want.

Next step up the group went to hell, and the MVs showed lots of spread, this pattern continued through the rest of the loads. I had ES of over 100 FPS from some of the loads. I noticed a couple of things. When the MV was close to 1400 the POI was pretty close to where it should have been, but when it went high my shots printed 2" left and I had vertical of about 6"

Next I tried IMR4198 thinking I'd again be lower than my target and end up there, wrong. Again the MVs were higher than predicted from my Lyman 49th, coming in close to 1500 and again they printed left of POI with wacky vertical, but the MVs seemed more consistent.

I'm going to go back and give the 3031 another chance loaded for just over 1400, but if I can't get my SD ans ES down I'll use something else. It does show a lot of unburned powder in the barrel.

As for the IMR 4198, I'm going to drop my load starting point about 1.5gr and see if I can find a working load.

[EDG]

The data at GDMR shows a significant tendency for accuracy to be degraded at velocities much above 1200 FPS.
All of the data at this site is lead bullet data for Marlin Lever actions in just about every Marlin caliber.

The fastest twists would be for the 30-30 rifles I guess and the slowest would be the .44 magnums.
At the end of each cliber data is a composite graph of groups sizes for all powders used for each bullet.
GDMR Marlin Cast Bullet Data here http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm
45-70 data is included

[XTR]

I got good chrono data on this day and one of the things that surprised me most was the ES of the IMR3031 loads. I'd not been running this rifle across the chrono for a while, mostly just shooting to see if I couild get stuff to group and planning another trip to get chrono info.

A lot of people have reported good results with 3031 but in this gun the results are pretty bad. Maybe other folks reload with something different, more crimp, jammed into the lands, maybe heavier bullets with it, but the incomplete burn on pretty moderate charges was disappointing.

[bigted]

chiming in on the 3031 here...that powder will leave droppings in the barrel until you get up to where the stinkin thing is beatin the snot outta you...then sometimes it will still leave a drop or two...ok kernel.

i find that my rifle likes the heavy long boolits for cast and size at .460 or .461 inch. for liter loads try the unique in from 10 to 14 grains behind a lyman or baco government style round nose boolit. altho that is a pretty short barrel and if it is like mine it is a 20 inch twist....maybe some RL-7 powder in around 34 or 36 grains with enough fill to touch the boolit base...i use cornmeal but they dont set around long. this load is very fun and with the scope on it seems to like to go into around an inch at 100 maybe 1.5. i played with this load from 30 to 38 grains and also with and without the cornmeal filler and found that optimum in my rifle was the 34 grain load and enough cm to kiss the boolit base. this is THE load that my rifle likes best. it shoots the remington 405 grain bullets into the same small groups at 100 but i like the cast better as i make em and they dont cost me 38 cents apiece. as of now the buff arms mould is getting the most use for my highwalls.

been trying paperpatch but the accuracy has so far eluded me but the trail is long and i am just started so the fun continues

[Bob Busetti]

None of my Browing rifles would shoot cast bullets worth a hoot until I shot 30+ jacketed bullets in them to clean up the rough spots in the barrel that you can't see. Than they shoot just fine.
Bob

[anthonytrkr]

FWIW you might as well be shooting round balls out of your rifle. To get a 45 cal to stabilize a boolit at longer ranges the boolit needs to be longer than bore dia. Try a 600gr. boolit or larger.

Tony

[Don McDowell]

FWIW you might as well be shooting round balls out of your rifle. To get a 45 cal to stabilize a boolit at longer ranges the boolit needs to be longer than bore dia. Try a 600gr. boolit or larger.

Tony

You may want to do some more investigation. I don't know of any of the guys shooting in the big leagues that shoot much over a 540 gr bullet. Several are landing great scores at 1000 with bullets around 527.

[softpoint]

I have 8 45/70 caliber rifles. None of them are MOA, or I just haven't found the right load:smile:Most recent acquisition was a Browning BPCR. I've been shooting smokeless with 350 to 405 gr. cast, and I might get this heavy rifle to do MOA, but I might have to use a heavier bullet to do so. What I consider an average accuracy test is 20 rounds of a particular load. Either 4, 5shot groups, or 5, 4 shot groups, or even another combination, but at least 20 rounds. I do have some sub-moa rifles, but they ain't 45/70's. Having said that, 45/70 is my favorite caliber. even if groups at 200 yards are 4 inches or so, that puts the bullet only 2 inches from the point of aim. That just isn't enough to matter on animals worthy of pointing a .45 at. And 200 yards is the maximum i will try to kill a game animal with a 45/70 at. Beyond that, guessing range and holdover is just more than I want to risk under field conditions. I like my 45/70 caliber rifles for what they are good for, they just don't play on the same level as bedded bolt actions with one piece ridgid stocks and almost instant lock time. One of my favorite loads here on the farm for all around use is the 340 grain Lee cast of pure lead (or close) patched with 2 wraps of tracing paper and loaded over 46.5 grains of RL7. Runs about 1950fps out of my stainless Guide gun or GBL Marlin, prints about 2 moa, (most of the time, I have a flier now and again, too) and nothing survives it under 200 yards, if I do my part. ;)

[montana_charlie]

I can close my eyes for 5 seconds and I'm still on target when I open them. Maybe it's the angle of my shoulder behind the rifle at the bench.
Are you wearing a PAST recoil pad on your shoulder?
CM

[XTR]

Charlie, I have started using one for load development with the 45-70.

[XTR]

After trying for nearly a yr to get this rifle to shoot I've gotten it to work, I think.

I've tried 350 j-bullets from Hornady, 405 cast from Meister and Laser cast, 340s from Ranch dog, and an unknown 350 cast. I've tried PP and GCs, H322, Rx7, IMR4198, IMR3031, and one test with Varget. All of that and I've never gotten close to anything resembling a reliable load. I'm talking not even on an 8.5x11 at 100 yards not reliable.

I've been on the "alert" list at Midway for months if they ever got in any of the 405 Remington J bullets in bulk. I scored 500 a couple of weeks ago.

I loaded up Rx7, 322, and 4198 in half gr steps shooting for a mid 1400s MV based on my Lyman 49th. That was a little guesswork for a couple of these because that range falls between the max load on the trapdoor tables and the low loads for the lever guns.

It worked. These are only 3 shot groups, which don't count for much, but of the 9 loads tested I got several inch to inch and a half groups from the 4198 and the Rx7. MVs ranged from mid to upper 1400s where I was aiming, to a really tight group at the upper 1500s. Rx7 seemed to give the over all best results.


Something else I saw. This is a 24" octagon that's pretty light. I've slugged this barrel and it's tight, .450 bore and .456 grooves. Most shots I let the barrel cool between shots. (I've done this before) but this time I decided to fire 3 of the 322 loads in a fast succession, what I got was nearly 200 FPS increase between the first and last shot, and a huge vertical string (like 7") with the last shot over 1700FPS.

Something else I noticed. If I had a shot hit 3" low of the POA I could tell before I looked at the chrony that the velocity was up in the neighborhood of 50 to 75FPS.

With the tight bore and the light barrel I think when it heats up the bullets run faster. I recall that I noticed some pretty wild MV variations a while back testing PP bullets, I was blaming it on my bullet sizes, but I'm thinking now maybe it wasn't the case. (which means that if I continue my PP experiments with a cold bore they may pay off)


Summing up what I learned, this will work as a hunting rifle, but I'm going to have to work at getting a dead on cold bore zero, because after that all bets are off on how low the second shot hits, and a warm barrel zero is three inches low, and these Remington 405s work for me.

[EDG]

Most of us know that you can get MOA at higher velocities with j word bullets, but this is not a j word site.
You original goal was to do the same with a cast bullet and we told you it would be difficult to do.
The Speer 400 grn I think is more accurate than the Remington bullet but who cares.
When you use high pressures and jacketed bullets the 45-70 is a modern round and clearly is no longer in the realm of cast bullets.

[XTR]

Heaven forbid someone mentions a jacketed bullet anywhere on this site, or modern smokeless powder in the presence of those who worship at the alter of the "Holy Black". You get a reaction similar to that of "insulting the prophet". You'd get a warmer reception eating pork rinds on a street corner in Kandahar.

I think what I found, no matter how I found it is relevant to anyone trying to get one of these to shoot, no matter the color the pellet. I thought I'd pass it on. The point being that I've never had a load that I had enough confidence in to identify what variables may be causing inaccuracy on the paper. This time I had loads that were working (that was new) and because of that I believe that I've been able to identify at least one source of the problems.

[bigted]

xtr...well first off im glad you got the little bugger to shoot. maybe the combo of shallow rifling and tight bore are gonna make it hard to find cast that will shoot. my hunter is 28 inch and it meassures .450 and .458...pretty close to dead nuts for both. i read mathews having a buffalo navy arms roller with a barrel meassuring almost exactly as yours does and id have to re-read to find out what he finally settled on for a accurate load and boolit. but he found a combo that worked in that barrel.

[XTR]

bigted, I'm still not convinced that this thing isn't going taken apart. I'm really not satisfied with it, but I know how to make it work. The trigger really needs to go Lee Shaver, and it is pretty likely to get a new barrel and become a 30-40, or even a 30-40AI. I've gotten a quote from Illja to make a 30cal half round blank that fits the stock fore grip and finish at 28". If I did that the long neck on the 30-40 brass would be great for cast and, and I could still shoot high BC pointy bullets too.

[Hiwall55]

XTR, I picked up a Shiloh this summer that nobody wanted because it was in 30-40 caliber,dang it's a hoot to shoot,I got my 210 Lyman cast and a 220 Speer to shoot great, no side variance,Just change up and down on my MVA sight and its dead on .LOVE IT! I took it to a 200 yd. Buffalo Shoot and Got 2nd Place - 30-40 is a great cast boolit round

[NSB]

XTR, if anyone on here is offended reading about jacketed bullets they have the perfect option on how not to get offended...don't read the post. I have a High Wall in 45-70 and had all the problems you're having. I never did get it to shoot cast to my satisfaction. I bought it for a hunting gun and I ended up using the Rem 405g jacketed and reloader 7. It shoots an inch or less consistantly. I use cast in my Sharps 45-70 and it shoots great with cast. I'm sure there are a lot of shooters who read on here who aren't offended by anyone using jacketed bullets. I'd bet most use them at times along with smokeless powders. Don't pay too much attention to those who turn their nose up and feel compelled to say something negative. They aren't speaking for anyone but themselves.

[Just Duke]

I've tried cast bullets and jacketed bullets from 300 to 405 grains. Loaded with H322, IMR 3031, Varget, Rx7 and 4198. MVs from about 1600 to 2200 and I cannot get it to group better than 2" at 100 yards.

Oh my this is way to fast. This is a carbine round.

[Just Duke]

first thing i would do is try imr4198 powder it just seems to work better in 45-70.

+1 That's what I use.

[Just Duke]

Any pressure put on the stocks and any change in hold will mess up groups.Kinda hard to explain but once you get a consistantant hold with no down pressures you'll see the groups get good.Two piece stocked rifles need their own type of bench shooting.
Yep. :D

[Just Duke]

These are 100 yard groups. I don't understand the obvious low flyers, did it in both groups. I have to work on that.

This is 56 gn of H 322 and a MV of 2127 avg. I'm sure the horizontal is probably me. The flyer ehh?!

http://www.onlinehumidor.com/forum/gallery/1_05_04_12_12_09_29.jpg

This is 300JHP over 48gn of IMR4198 MV 2104 avg

http://www.onlinehumidor.com/forum/gallery/1_05_04_12_12_11_10.jpg

The low flyers are probably me. Both loads put the first shot in the red. The rifle was heated up by this point I was dealing with mirage from the barrel. These were shot after my shoulder was pretty sore from a bunch of cast shots, but I personally hate people who post a picture of 5 shots and talk about the 3 shot group in the middle, disregard the flyers... yea right; however, these tell do me that I have a bullet that I can work to. Shooting these I'm holding on tight to an eight and a half pound rifle that is about to buck like a rodeo bronc, so I'm sure I impart some dispersion. The horizontal in the H322 group is surely me, the vertical stringing in the IMR group I'm less sure of.

I'll eventually get the load dialed at 100 and do some 200 yard shooting.

Inconsistent hold could cause it but I'd say the barrel just got to hot.

[Just Duke]

I'll sell you my new in box Model 70 .458 Winchester Magnum and you can drive 500 grainer to 2200 all day long.

[Just Duke]

Winchester Miroku 1886 45-70 with tang sights and a half blind old man behind the stock. Dec 22, 2011 @100 yards

28 Grain of Hodgden 4198.

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/S1/DSC_0003-3.jpg

100 YARDS
http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/S1/GU5.jpg?t=1324599401

[Just Duke]

Here's the SAECO #018, 405 grain cast wheel weight samples.


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd255/EBRSOPMODS/LEVER%20ACTION%20SHOOTERS%20SOCIETY/BP45-702.jpg





Winchester 1886 Take Down 45-70.
Bullets sized to .459 and 28 grains of Hodgden 4198
Here is the SAECO 405 grainer at 30 yards shot resting on my elbows.


http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/DSC_0239.jpg

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/DSC_0238.jpg


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd255/EBRSOPMODS/LEVER%20ACTION%20SHOOTERS%20SOCIETY/006-7.jpg

[rbertalotto]

I have a Winchester BPCR with the Badger barrel that I paid over $1600 for that I simply can not get it to shoot. No matter what I try. My other six 45-70 rifles are amazingly accurate, so it isn't my loading technique. I've tried many different lead bullets and every imaginable powder, primer, black and smokeless. The best was 405 soft cast Lee with 12g Unique. But this same load shot half the size goups in the other rifles.

I'm going to rebarrel into 38-55 this winter........I give up!

[Gunlaker]

I have a Winchester BPCR with the Badger barrel that I paid over $1600 for that I simply can not get it to shoot. No matter what I try. My other six 45-70 rifles are amazingly accurate, so it isn't my loading technique. I've tried many different lead bullets and every imaginable powder, primer, black and smokeless. The best was 405 soft cast Lee with 12g Unique. But this same load shot half the size goups in the other rifles.

I'm going to rebarrel into 38-55 this winter........I give up!

Roy, another option might be to ask Dan Theodore about one of his .45-90 reamer designs. He has one that was made to clean up a Browning .45-70 chamber.

Just another option.

Chris.

[XTR]

Duke, I appreciate that that is resting on your elbows, but a 1.5' to 2" group at 30 yards, just use a shotgun. That's a 6MOA group, that translates to can't hit s#!+ at 125 yards.

What distance are those first patterns, (I hesitate to call them groups unless they are at 500 yards.)

My bottleneck pointy fast rifles shoot inside of 1MOA, my F-TR rifle shoots groups in the .2s for vertical and low .3s wide at 200, and it brought home a gold medal from the national championships at Raton last month. In my world if the best a rifle can do is 2MOA then I need to sell it.

[rbertalotto]

At 30 yds, my rifles better be "breaking holes" or they are going to get a stern talking to! Five shots in a little cluster or they be looking for a new home.......

"The only interesting rifles are accurate rifles!"


I might ream the chamber before I rebarrel just to see what happens. I'm actually leaning toward a reline to 38-55, my new found love cartridge!

[Gunlaker]

I know what you mean about the .38-55. I've a C. sharps 1885 chambered for it as well as a barrel for my CPA. It's a very pleasant cartridge to shoot, as is the .32-40 I've found :-)

Chris.

[EDG]

Practically anyone can get a modern 45-70 to shoot well with jacketed bullets. Your groups may make you happy shooting with precision match bullets right out of a box. If you like that type of shooting you might try full up benchrest shooting.
As far as cast bullets go they do not match that precision when you buy commercial machine cast bullets out of a box. To gain a higher degree of accuracy requires some effort and knowledge to refine the bullet's precision. The bullets need to be sorted to get rid if internal defects. The bullets need to be the right hardness and you have to balance the load used to match the characteristic of the lead bullet hardness. Trying to force a cast bullet to behave the same as a jacketed bullet, with jacketed bullet velocities and pressures, does not work. What does work will match the performance of the 405 grain Remington bullets for accuracy. In any case I find that reaching that accuracy level is much more satisfying than loading jacketed bullets.


Duke, I appreciate that that is resting on your elbows, but a 1.5' to 2" group at 30 yards, just use a shotgun. That's a 6MOA group, that translates to can't hit s#!+ at 125 yards.

What distance are those first patterns, (I hesitate to call them groups unless they are at 500 yards.)

My bottleneck pointy fast rifles shoot inside of 1MOA, my F-TR rifle shoots groups in the .2s for vertical and low .3s wide at 200, and it brought home a gold medal from the national championships at Raton last month. In my world if the best a rifle can do is 2MOA then I need to sell it.

[Just Duke]

Duke, I appreciate that that is resting on your elbows, but a 1.5' to 2" group at 30 yards, just use a shotgun. That's a 6MOA group, that translates to can't hit s#!+ at 125 yards.

What distance are those first patterns, (I hesitate to call them groups unless they are at 500 yards.)

My bottleneck pointy fast rifles shoot inside of 1MOA, my F-TR rifle shoots groups in the .2s for vertical and low .3s wide at 200, and it brought home a gold medal from the national championships at Raton last month. In my world if the best a rifle can do is 2MOA then I need to sell it.

OOPS! OK I went in and fixed it. Those were at 100 yards.
The other groups were not what one would call fantastic but please take into consideration that I pretty vision impaired.
So anyway...... As you did I came here a few years ago from the tactical scene which at the time I had 6 dedicated tactical firearms forums.
Coming over to lever guns you surely will need to check your ego at the door and develop a different mindset as the platform were discussing here has a 125 year old birthday. Also yourself being from the tactical field you know that different bullet weights and rate of twist compounded with velocity all have to be taken into consideration for premium results.
Right now you dropped in here from the bottle neck case genre to the semi tapered case genre. The tapered case genre is for game at a relatively short range and the occasional hostile indigenous primitive and the bottle neck genre was designed for long range elimination of Tango's.
Buy a Chey Tac.....
P.S. Gale Mcmillan personally did my rifles when we were kids but that was back when I could walk into Montgomery Ward and walk into their dedicated saddle dept. ;)

[bigted]

ahhh. finally found this tale and without going back thru every post I am wondering if you ever wrung out your new style Winchester '85'? I have discovered a very accurate load for mine and am interested in your final results and if you are still playing with your japchester as I am with mine? I found a load that I believe might just interest you.

[EDG]

Ted I would be interested since I have one of those rifles.

[bigted]

EDG ... I will start nother thread with details and photo's. ill name it "JAPCHESTER 1885 ACCURACY"

[303carbine]

Am I expecting too much?

To say I shoot a fair amount is an understatement. In the last couple of yrs I've started shooting F-TR comps so I'm at the range more than most. I reload for precision and I've come to expect a certain measure of accuracy from my rifles.

My rebarreled 30" Krieger barreled 308 is currently in load development printing 200 yard groups in the 2s and 3s. (one 3 shot cloverleaf at .155 moa). THe 308 that I hunt with will print .5 to .75 with 165SMKs. Hell, even my Knight muzzle loader, which it turns out is my absolute deer slayer, will shoot 1.5 or better.

My Highwall 45-70 on the other hand is driving me mad. This is a 24" Miroku manufactured rifle with no throat to speak of.

I've tried cast bullets and jacketed bullets from 300 to 405 grains. Loaded with H322, IMR 3031, Varget, Rx7 and 4198. MVs from about 1600 to 2200 and I cannot get it to group better than 2" at 100 yards.

I finally broke down and shot a 200 yard group last weekend with a load set of 300gn jacketed hollow points and it was just over 2MOA.

At this point there are several hundred rounds down the tube and I'm not happy with the results. I'm not looking for target rifle accuracy, but I would thing that it should shoot 1MOA. That's not too much to ask.


Has anyone else found a load that will shoot tight in these rifles?

Has anyone else done well with cast boolits? My boolit groups have been the worst. I've shot with and w.o GCs from 340s to 405s and they just don't seem to get there.

I'm seriously thinking of having my smith run a reamer into the chamber to give me a little more throat. The way the rifle is today have to seat Hornaday 350gn flat noses in past the cannelure or it won't chamber, and even then the lands put marks on the nose for 30 thousandths.

I am going to make this rifle shoot, or I'm going to learn what it likes to shoot or something. I really like the rifle, I want it to be my regular white tail rifle, but I have got to get it to the point that I am confident of my shot placement out to 200 yards or it isn't going to work. I have a friend who seems a little surprised at my confidence (and success) with my muzzle loader at ranges from 125 to 150. I know the ballistics, I trust the rifle, and it makes dead deer. Over a 200 yard field of fire I'd honestly just as soon carry it as a center fire, this is the rifle that I want to use in it's place muzzle loader season closes and rifle season opens, but right now it's not there.


I had a Browning B78 45-70 that I got to shoot better by getting the cast bullets sized and lubed at .460 and adding two wraps of Teflon tape over the lubed bullet. The speed was about 1750 fps, I was clover leafing shots at 100 yds. The RCBS 405 grain mould was used and a gas check was used.

[bigted]

303 ... so you are saying that AFTER the .460 size ... you then wrap the Teflon tape over the lube grooves? so then what is the final diameter?

[303carbine]

303 ... so you are saying that AFTER the .460 size ... you then wrap the Teflon tape over the lube grooves? so then what is the final diameter?

Yes, Teflon patched after sizing and lube, I didn't measure the final bullet, but it was very accurate.
I didn't try this in the Marlin, just the B78 Browning and not hot loaded.

[bigted]

interesting!

[jhalcott]

I read about some guy (Buffington?) shooting a 45-70 at a MILE! He was using ammo for his day. I am not certain what his alloy was, BUT his VELOCITY was no where near 2000FPS! I shoot a couple 45-70's and a 15" TC Contender handgun. Alloy and velocity will definetely change accuracy results. Your gun is certainly good enough for HUNTING, but may need some changes to become a viable BENCH REST gun.

[bigted]

indeed ... seems like we are all caught up in hunting loads for the venerable 45-70 trying to make it something it never was intended for. not saying that these heavier loads wont deliver and do so very well ... but we tend to forget that the lower velocity blackpowder loads did everything needed to do in the day. responsible for killin anything that walked or crawled for many a year. forgetting as well the very long range shooting these are capable of with just some care and trigger time to adjust for the added shooting yardage.

this round will take any game in America with 400ish grain boolits of fairly soft metal mix and mushrooming in such perfect shape that jacketed bullets just now are catching up with the perfect performance of these boolits ... and in the game fields they do just excellent on the game hunted.

it will also do all in the long range shoots with little to sufferable recoil of the slow 1000 to 1200 fps loads in 500+ grain boolits ... pushed along with the archaic powder that has been with us for just a bit longer then this grey/white looking powder we seem to like now-a-days.

good reminder "jhalcott" ... [smilie=s: