Buying new AR 15 this Friday

[Saint]

I will be buying a new AR this Friday. I will be buying from Cabelas since I have accumulated a lot of gift certificates from work. I am hoping for a Bushmaster M4 A3 but I am looking for other options in case they are out of stock. I am really not concerned about brand so my question really is what should I avoid and why should I avoid it? I will not be using optics but I do want a flat top with detachable carry handle in case I change my mind later. Other than that nothing else matters much.

[Haggway]

Start with a good platform. bushmaster, rockriver, dpms. I try to avoid the colts.
http://s1142.photobucket.com/albums/n610/haggway/?action=view&current=barbieformen.jpg

[Saint]

Colt is already out of the question. Any reason not to go DPMS? I really like their prices and if I go that route I will be able to afford the ruger .22 pistol I have been wanting for so long.

[jblee10]

I have a DPMS 16 inch bull barrel upper on a home assembled lower. My bull barrel shoots .75 groups regularly at 100 yards. The only thing is it is heavy. I plan on buying a DPMS upper with a light barrel in the future. I am totally happy with DPMS.

[giz189]

What's wrong with the Colt?

[oneokie]

Aren't DPMS and Bushmaster part of the Freedom Group?

[Larry Gibson]

What's wrong with the Colt?

I'll second that question(?).

Larry Gibson

[Ickisrulz]

m4carbine.net

Do your homework.

[Ickisrulz]

Start with a good platform. bushmaster, rockriver, dpms. I try to avoid the colts.
http://s1142.photobucket.com/albums/n610/haggway/?action=view&current=barbieformen.jpg

Colt is the gold standard.

[Saint]

Colt is too expensive and I have heard more bad things about colt than any other brand. I initially wanted a Colt but everyone I talked to told me not to do it. Thanks for the link though, homework is what I am doing now and this is part of it. Am checking out the link now.

[ilcop22]

Nothing wrong with DPMS. I have a Doublestar (well, it used to be til my tools got hold of it :twisted:) and I can punch handloads through the same hole at 50 yards with my irons.

I tend to stay away from Colt, too. Reason being that you're paying a premium for the name. I'll sell one on special order, but I don't usually recommend them or stock them when you can get the same performance out of a rifle costing much, much less.

[cheese1566]

I just researched buying ten rifles for my department. I have a DPMS myself at home, the lower that I built from a parts kit.
I was rather shocked when I started to call around to other agencies about their experiences. Not too much good to say about the DPMS rifles a few rounds down the road. Not to mention either that these same departments weren't getting good customer service once the rifles were purchased.
I haven't had trouble with mine though.

Every department afterwards starting buying Colts. Us too after word of mouth and research. Some departmens started replacing the broken parts from other manufacturers (DPMS, Bushmaster...) with Colt parts and no longer having issues.

There is some thought though on what the purpose is..."everyday Joe" like me at home for plinking/fun/maybe defense; or using one at work when you, your coworkers, and the public is depending on it.

Our federal 1033 surplus M16A1's are still going strong and no troubles, and those are all Colt's.

I just wish I could buy a few for what the department is getting them for!:holysheep

Same thing as any other manufacturer debate: Chevy/Ford/Dodge...Lee/Redding/Lyman/RCBS.

[Saint]

Guess I should clarify what I am looking for. Will be mainly for target shooting at the range but I do have the little voice in the back of my head telling me to be ready for when our country implodes and for that reason I do want the parts to be interchangeable.

[garym1a2]

My Colt ar15 Hbar 20 inch I got back in 1988 is still going strong with a ton of rounds thru it It also is the most accurate Rifle I have ever owned. It put my old Match M1A to shame at 300 yards and under. Only time I every cleaned a High power rapid target was with the Colt at 200 yards. This gun always goes bang and puts the rounds where aimed.

[Haggway]

Colts tend to be over priced. There is nothing wrog witha a colt, I have two myself that I got long ago when they were affordable. The others tend to be more easily inter changable on parts than the colts as well.
With Saint looking for his first AR-15 thats why put it that way. I cant see paying a little more for a name is all.
Garrym1a2. I got My Hbar second hand back in 1988 also. Never had a hitch and it still runs great.

[Houndog]

I'll agree with others, there's absolutely nothing wrong with Colt, except their outrageous prices! I built my AR using a Stag reciever Shilen barrel and most of the other parts from Del Ton. It's an A2 configuration, a tack driver, and so far NO problems at all! IF I were buying a new AR and didn't want to build it myself, I'd take a hard look at either a Bushmaster or a S&W. The Smith is probably the best bang for the bucks out there right now, looking at prices locally.

[cheese1566]

Buy the best you can afford and have fun!

Best thing about the black rifles is that they are so easy to change, upgrade, and modify.

[tomme boy]

The reason the colt cost more is because of the testing of each part they do to the rifle. If you want a rifle to plink, get a DPMS, or a Bushmaster. Stag, Rock River, Double Star, would be a way better choise. If it has to be the rifle that will traded in a few years later, or your kids are going to sell when you are gone, get the colt.

[garym1a2]

Since the orginal post is buying from Cabelas and they don't lists Colts it does not matter. But they are not a brand I would avoid when comparision shoping. The s&W M&P sport I own cost $600 and is a good rifle also. Not like my Colt, but decent shooter adn 100% reliable.

[GabbyM]

Don't overlook a 20" barrel.

[pmer]

One thing I noticed using peep sights is that my eye has trouble focusing on the front sight with the short sight radius of those ARs with the short hand gaurd.

I like the full length hand gaurd and the longer sight radius.

[tomme boy]

Ignore the rear site an focus on the front. The rear will center on its own.

[Saint]

Since the orginal post is buying from Cabelas and they don't lists Colts it does not matter. But they are not a brand I would avoid when comparision shoping. The s&W M&P sport I own cost $600 and is a good rifle also. Not like my Colt, but decent shooter adn 100% reliable.

I was looking at this one but I really want a forward assist. Also I want something chrome lined.

[DCM]

I owned Colts the only thing I did not like is the price, But that is the same reason I $old mine, Prices went up so I made money and bought a = quality at a lower price and had money to play with. :-):-):-):-):-):-)

[ilcop22]

Also I want something chrome lined.

Any particular reason you're interested in a CL barrel?

[Saint]

From what I have read, and correct me if I'm wrong, chrome lined barrels although slightly less accurate will usually last longer. I am aware that for casual plinking I probably don't need it but as was the case with my .44 mag I may get it and end up liking it way too much and I would hate to burn up a barrel because I was too cheap to invest the money when I had it. In truth I am in the unique situation right now to not really need to worry about cost but at the same time I won't rob myself on a label either. I hope to get all of the features I want in a reliable package as inexpensively as possible and if I can do it with a 700 dollar dpms I will but if I need to drop 2 grand I can. I know I can get all of the features of a high end Colt a lot cheaper if I don't care about the name. I am researching the DPMS right now and it may not be the one either.

[Russel Nash]

First off, let my preface my comments in that there is going to be a lot of fan-boyism when you have a thread like this.

You might as well have asked, "Which is better, Chevy, Ford, or Dodge?"

My second disclaimer is that I am a cheap SO and SO. I suspect most of us here are actually because we would all be shooting j-word bullets instead and hanging out on a j-word bullet forum.

So since I am a cheap So and So, and I am not some real world Delta-force operator who goes around kicking in doors for a living, I don't need nor want a high zoot, high priced boutique AR.

If you were to browse other internet gun forums, especially those geared towards the AR15's, you'll soon discover that everybody apparently hates DPMS. They have figured that DPMS stands for:

Don't

Purchase

My

Stuff

or

Doesn't

Pass

Mil

Spec

As far as hate goes, I reckon Bushmaster is probably number 2. Number 3 is DPMS. and coming in at the number one slot would be Olympic Arms.

That said....against my better judgement, I plunked down the jack for a DPMS AR in 7.62X39 about this time last year from a local Cabela's . It was $700. It pukes on everything foreign made I have given it. BUT, it does run like a sewing machine with American Eagle (made my Federal) brass cased ammo.

It is a sportical version, so it doesn't have a forward assist...no brass deflector, and no dust cover.

From the people I have talked to who have been either in Iraq or A-stan, they have all told me hitting the forward assist has always made the problem worst, and even more difficult to get the gun back to running again.

I can't really comment on the chrome lining issue, except for a little bit of a history lesson. Back when Robert McNamara was bean counting and micro-managing the Vietnam War, M16's were first sent over without any chrome lining. If the gun was left loaded over night....as I understand it....in a wet/humid jungle like condition, the brass cased ammo and the bare steel chamber area would basically corrode themselves together.

Later on, M16's were shipped over there with chrome lined barrels. McNamara supposedly didn't want to spend the money on the chroming process.

Well, that's at least how I understand it.

So, I can't comment on the longevity (how many thousands of rounds fired lifetime a non-chrome lined barrel has) issue. NOR, can I comment on which is more accurate.

You could always spring for a gun with a stainless barrel.

Up to just a few years ago, there were only like 3 places in the whole United States that made/machined AR lowers and uppers. One outfit was or is CMT, which is the parent company of Stag. As I understand it, they would make other companies's AR lowers or uppers and were basically just licensed to engrave or stamp that other company's logo onto the lower.

Now? there is no telling who is really making so and so's AR receivers.

As far as pricing goes, yeah, sure you cold blow $2,000 on an AR, especially something from Lewis Machine and Tool (LMT) or Noveske, or maybe even Bravo Company (BCM). They seem to be the current cool kids on the block that everybody drools over.

I would rather spend my money on a so so gun, and equip it with better glass and stock up on reloading components instead. I have two ACOG's and an ELCAN.

[Russel Nash]

This is just my opinion....I hate the looks of a flattop upper receiver while the barrel is still wearing a fixed/permanent front sight tower.

If you are going to be looking at optics for this gun, look for a gun that has a gas block with a short section of picatinny rail milled into it.

Also, look into whether there is a place to attach a sling either on the forearm or the gas block.

There should be a place to attach a sling on the buttstock.

I tried both a two point sling and a single point sling. Absolutely hated the single point sling. It felt like it was trying to strangle me. I like the two point sling so much better.

Also, if you live in one of those free-er states where suppressors are allowed, be sure that the barrel is threaded at the muzzle and that the flash hider or compensator is threaded on.

[garym1a2]

Chrome lined tends to make a barrell last much longer. Forward assist should never be used as its better to eject the bad round.

I was looking at this one but I really want a forward assist. Also I want something chrome lined.

[Ickisrulz]

As far as pricing goes, yeah, sure you cold blow $2,000 on an AR, especially something from Lewis Machine and Tool (LMT) or Noveske, or maybe even Bravo Company (BCM). They seem to be the current cool kids on the block that everybody drools over.


The big 5 are Colt, BCM, LMT, Noveske and Daniel Defense. These are considered the best by hard users on m4carbine.net (Fanboys? Maybe, but there is a trend there).

There's no need to spend even close to $2000. Basic Colts got for $1000-1100. You can get a basic BCM or LMT for about the same price. I'm not sure about Noveske or DD. With known quality and bottom feeders within $200 or so of each other, I'm not sure going the cheap route is worth it especially since the OP suggested possibly using the rifle in a defensive role at some point.

There's no need for railed handguards or ACOG, etc. until you actually need them. These items add losts of cost to the rifle.

G and R Tactical usually stocks Colts and BCM rifles ready to ship as well as complete lowers from Colt, BCM and LMT. I wouldn't limit my purchase to Cabelas.

[Russel Nash]

Ickisrulz wrote:


There's no need for railed handguards or ACOG, etc. until you actually need them. These items add losts of cost to the rifle.

Meh! I don't like railed handguards either.

As far as the ACOG comment goes, well, the typical conventional wisdom is to spend the same amount on glass as you did the rifle.

The first ACOG I bought is an ECOS model, like this:

https://www.entrygear.com/productimages/Trijicon%20ACOG%20TA01ECOS.jpg

No fiber optic rod, so it doesn't light up the crosshairs during the day. But the tritium does light them up at night. The little red dot riding piggy back works well at least out to 50 yards.

I bought that because one of my fellow alums cross commissioned to the Army. He was a platoon leader in Iraq when an IED blew up near him. Shrapnel flew and hit his ACOG ECOS model, that he had bought with his own personal funds. He sent me pics of the rifle and ACOG with the damage. Had it not been for the ACOG, he's pretty sure that the shrapnel would have entered his chest.

So the second ACOG I bought does have the fiber optic.

The ELCAN takes batteries, but without the batteries you still have a set of crosshairs.

I got both of those used for about half price versus new. So if you keep an eye out, you can really find some deals....just beware of the FakeCOGS and the Fake Aimpoints.

[ilcop22]

From what I have read, and correct me if I'm wrong, chrome lined barrels although slightly less accurate will usually last longer. I am aware that for casual plinking I probably don't need it but as was the case with my .44 mag I may get it and end up liking it way too much and I would hate to burn up a barrel because I was too cheap to invest the money when I had it. In truth I am in the unique situation right now to not really need to worry about cost but at the same time I won't rob myself on a label either. I hope to get all of the features I want in a reliable package as inexpensively as possible and if I can do it with a 700 dollar dpms I will but if I need to drop 2 grand I can. I know I can get all of the features of a high end Colt a lot cheaper if I don't care about the name. I am researching the DPMS right now and it may not be the one either.

Chrome lining barrels does increase barrel life, but it also decreases accuracy by ~1/4 inch @100 yards. The real benefit of chrome lining a barrel vs Chrome-Moly or Stainless comes with sustained fire or rapid-fire in excess of 100 RPM. Since money isn't an issue, which barrel you decide on really depends on the rifles use. For match accuracy and long range shooting, a stainless or chrome-molly barrel is what you need. If you shoot a lot and you're dumping thousands of rounds a year, or you want extended barrel life and practical or tactical shooting is your forte, then go with the chrome. Keep in mind, though, even a chrome-lined barrel only lasts to about 5,000 rounds. IMHO, get one that fits the price you're most comfortable with. I spent 700 on my Doublestar when I first bought it for a duty rifle in 2007, but I've spent probably that much in customizing and add-ons.

[Saint]

I am really looking at this for something to bridge the gap between the range of my pistols and the range of my Remington 770. I am pretty good with iron sights and what I would really like is a detachable carry handle but I actually don't want the flat top gas block, if for some reason I decide to add optics I will use a riser.

[EDK]

ROCK RIVER ARMS has a fairly decent reputation...Russell mentioned the brands that everyone likes....and also those on the s*** list by the AR fanciers. I did some reading and got a LAR15 with NO sights and the telescoping stock. I also bought a BUSHNELL TRS-25 red dot for it(excellent review on it in THE BLUE PRESS, February 2012) and am blasting away with appropriate reloads. A few accessories, some factory ammo, and a bunch of magazines will complete the project, although a second budget priced rifle appears to be a good idea considering the current political situation, etc. AFTER I'm stocked up on powder, primers and a few J WORDS for the AR15 and M1As.

:redneck::cbpour::guntootsmiley:

[tomme boy]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/tommeboy/IMG_09902.jpg


Here you go. Folding front site, detachable carry handle. My scope is mounted for this pic. I completely built this one my self.

[tomme boy]

One thing that is really nice for me is there are about 7 AR maufacturers within 35 miles of me. All I have to do is drive there to see all the differant guns and get whatever parts I need.

[ilcop22]

I am really looking at this for something to bridge the gap between the range of my pistols and the range of my Remington 770. I am pretty good with iron sights and what I would really like is a detachable carry handle but I actually don't want the flat top gas block, if for some reason I decide to add optics I will use a riser.

For what it's worth, I'd say choose whichever rifle that best fits what you're looking for. We can compare brands and A1vsA2vsA3vsA4 til we're blue in the face, but honestly, you really can't go wrong with an AR made by any reputable dealer. My advice to any AR buyers is the first thing to do is replace the A2 birdcage flash hider, trigger springs, buttstock and magazines. You can buy a Colt and spend all your accessory money, or you can buy a S&W or DMPS and have money to spare.

[Saint]

I got a chance to handle a few of them today and it looks like its going to end up being the Bushmaster M4A3, there are things I don't like about it but it still has more of the features I want than anything else they stock. Only thing I really don't like is the fixed flash hider. Will still have to see what I walk out with tomorrow though.

[ilcop22]

Be sure to let us know. The M4A3 by Bushmaster is a popular gun for good reasons. It has (I believe) the A2 birdcage flash hider. As I previously mentioned, that's the first thing to go. I always recommend the Smith Enterprises Vortex Flash hider (Brownells, MidwayUSA, etc.) for three reasons.
1. It's non indexing
2. It significantly reduces muzzle flash (we're talking 0 flash here) and settles recoil a bit
3. The company that makes it is very pro US military, and often give them away to troops at no cost.

[Saint]

Just got back with the M4A3, still drooling over my first AR so hope i dont get any on the keyboard. Very happy with it so far. Everything feels smooth and when i stripped it down for the first cleaning all the guts looked good too. Noticed that the gas key was already staked which i hear a lot of people mention. Can't wait to get to the range. Also a note on the flash hider. It seems that it is pinned to the barrel and welded over since its part of the 16 inches.

[bosterr]

This is for GARYM1A2... Would you care to divulge your load for your HBar? My Colt Model 6610 has a 1 in 7 twist. I have some 75 grainers but haven't tried them yet.

[garym1a2]

Back in the high power days it was 68Hornady or 69 match kings (win748). I do not remember powder charge as it been over 15 years. Iuse a lot of 55/62 gr bullets recently, its decent with these. I am starting to try 75gr with reloader 15x but no results yet.

I
This is for GARYM1A2... Would you care to divulge your load for your HBar? My Colt Model 6610 has a 1 in 7 twist. I have some 75 grainers but haven't tried them yet.

[Saint]

Got to the range today, that was the most fun I have had in a while. Bought 2 100 round federal value packs of .223 55gr and thought that it would be plenty. Something about a 30 round magazine that just makes you plow through ammo really fast. In less than an hour I was out but the Bushmaster performed flawlessly. I had a lot of fun but I can tell this is going to be more expensive than I had anticipated.

[pmer]

Glad to read the new rifle is running good.

FWIW I tried some 60 grain flat base spitzers in my 1 in 8 twist service rifle. At 100 yds I had a nice sub MOA group but at 250 yds the group opened up to 4 inches.

Then tried some old 80 HPBT shells I had and they shot much better at 250 yards.

[Moonie]

Yea, told my sons that if they got an AR they would have to get me a progressive. They did, now we have 2 AR's and 2 spare uppers. 1 5.56 1 6.8 and 2 new 300 AAC Blackouts