copied 44man's boolit for the .475

[subsonic]

Here is as close as I could get after several attempts at using Mtn Molds software to design a copy of 44man's .475 boolit that shoots so well.

On 44man's boolit, his lube grooves and crimp groove are not as deep as this boolit, and his does not hold as much lube (probably less than 1gr from what I can measure). I wanted more lube and more crimp groove anyway. The weight, driving bands, length, nose length and meplat are all the same. I used a secant ogive because I was unsure how to identify a tangent or secant ogive and the secant ogive gave me everything else on the money, give or take .001" or so in places.

If anybody else want's one, just punch in the numbers in the picture below on mountainmolds.com

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/475mm44man.png

And here's a pic of his original:
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/_47520crimp.jpg

[44man]

Here is as close as I could get after several attempts at using Mtn Molds software to design a copy of 44man's .475 boolit that shoots so well.

On 44man's boolit, his lube grooves and crimp groove are not as deep as this boolit, and his does not hold as much lube (probably less than 1gr from what I can measure). I wanted more lube and more crimp groove anyway. The weight, driving bands, length, nose length and meplat are all the same. I used a secant ogive because I was unsure how to identify a tangent or secant ogive and the secant ogive gave me everything else on the money, give or take .001" or so in places.

If anybody else want's one, just punch in the numbers in the picture below on mountainmolds.com

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/475mm44man.png

And here's a pic of his original on the right:
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/b8eab9d8.jpg
I don't know about the shoulder or the large lube grooves. That is far from what I have.
Only testing will tell the story.

[subsonic]

There is no shoulder. That is just how the program draws the transition from the ogive to the front driving band (full diameter) area. I actually went .010" less than what you have, figuring that once sized it would lengthen as it ate up some ogive.

I could have put smaller lube grooves, but only by a little with this program. I was limited by the boundaries of the program. With the leading I have experienced in my gun, I figured I should try a little more lube. Considering all of the different boolits I have seen shoot very well from BFRs, I suspect this one also will shoot well. The boolit seems important, but not as important as the gun and loading variables.

Just need to work on my crown....

If somone wants your exact boolit, it looks like they will have to come from your mold or one made at home. Nobody will cut the lube grooves that shallow that I have talked to.

[subsonic]

Jim, I will send you 50+ of these to try once I cast them so you can compare and to replace yours that you sent me free of charge.

[subsonic]

I don't know about the shoulder or the large lube grooves. That is far from what I have.
Only testing will tell the story.

The one with LBT blue on it in the bottom picture is NOT the one from Mtn Molds. I do not have the mold from Mtn yet, just ordered it this morning. The boolit on the left is a "sensible keith" style from Mtn Molds that Mellonhead sent me that just happens to be in the picture from another thread. I changed the pic to the one you sent me to avoid confusing people.

[44man]

Jim, I will send you 50+ of these to try once I cast them so you can compare and to replace yours that you sent me free of charge.
OK, a full test is in order. I will do it.

[subsonic]

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/a8619bad.jpg

I would do it differently if I had it to do over.

I should have ordered a TANGENT OGIVE instead of secant.

But otherwise, it's close, as you can see by one of 44man's boolits laying on the mold cavity in the pic above.

[subsonic]

This is probably what I would order today. This design will allow a little more powder beneath it so it's not so touchy near max pressure.

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/newest475.png

Mountain Molds does a great job and Tom at Accurate Molds can make a mold like this as well.

[tek4260]

Ok I'll bite. Looks great and the more I look at it, the more I like the looks of it. Most molds have a thicker base before you get to the first grease groove. Is there any advantage to having it thin like this one? Or was it necessary to get 3 grooves?

[subsonic]

Well, Jim likes his base bands thin. When you think about where you need thick bands, and what is happening, why do you need a thick base band? In revolvers especially, wouldn't that lead be put to better use in the front where the rifling is trying to turn it first?

Of course, I could be way off... But Jim's boolits sure shoot well!

I will send you a few when I get some cast up.

[tek4260]

Well, Jim likes his base bands thin. When you think about where you need thick bands, and what is happening, why do you need a thick base band? In revolvers especially, wouldn't that lead be put to better use in the front where the rifling is trying to turn it first?

Of course, I could be way off... But Jim's boolits sure shoot well!

I will send you a few when I get some cast up.


It does make sense to have the last lube close to the base. I also read what you said about the Mihec and the lack of a front driving band. Seems it would contribute a good bit to the slump Aaron was getting from the 480. Your mold looks like is should be better in that regard for sure.

[subsonic]

Like the Reeder backdrop for the mold pic?:p

If you look much at "real" LBT boolits, you will notice a lot of similarities.

[44man]

Wonderful looking mold.
I admit the narrow base band was an accident on my .475 but it shot so good I made the .500 boolit the same. It also shoots good.
I tried less GG's and I like more grooves, seems to be more accurate.
Leading was never a question, just accuracy and there seems to be a difference.
We shot the steel pig off hand at 100 yesterday with my .500, no problem hitting every shot. Then we shot the M14 at another plate and it is about the same but I actually had a smaller group with the revolver! :mrgreen:
First time I ever shot a 14 and it is a wonderful rifle. I am so old I used an M1! :coffee:

[subsonic]

Since this isn't an exact copy of 44man's boolit, I'm going to call it the 476415S.

I went to the range today. I had planned to chronograph 5 loads each of this boolit over 24, 25, and 26gr of H110 with a CCI 350 primer. But I forgot my chronograph!
I decided to go ahead and shoot the 24gr loads and look for pressure signs - I couldn't wait to shoot them! The cartridge in the pic is loaded with one of these 476415S boolits. Boolits measured somewhere between 25 and 30 on the LBT hardness tester, a guess would be 28, but 25 and 30 are pretty close together on the scale. Cast of WDWW + a dash of 50/50 solder and lubed with LBT Blue and sized .4765"

When loading these 5, I had one boolit that I messed up when adjusting the seating die and crimped it while it was only half way in the case. (forgot to run the seating stem back down) I pulled it, resized, re-belled, re-threw the powder and seated and crimped a new boolit. It is the lowest shot in the group on the LEFT and I noted easy seating on the press handle with that one.

The group on the right is the last of Toby/Mellonhead's boolits over 14gr HS6 with a CCI300. In fairness to Toby's load and boolits, I don't think *I* did as good of a job shooting them, but I don't think they would have grouped quite as well as this boolit/load anyway.

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/476415.jpg

Below is an image showing from left to right:
Speer 400gr Gold Dot, Lee 400gr, Toby's 400gr SWC, 476415S with lube, without lube, 44man's original w/Felix, and Miha's 480640 group buy boolit. These are lined up with the front edge of the crimp grooves as even as I could get them to show seating depth.

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/476415vs.jpg

[subsonic]

Oh, forgot to mention. Both groups at 50yards....

[tek4260]

That is excellent accuracy at 50! I have 15 lubed with Rooster, the lithi-bee is cooling in the pot, and I even tumbled the cases I am going to load! I'll have some loaded tonight and hopefully test in the morning after church.

Good thing about back deck shooting is that when you forget the chronograph, you simply run back inside and up the stairs :) Course it doesn't mean much since mine is 4 5/8.

[subsonic]

What is lithi-bee?

And don't rub in the back deck shooting :violin:Only about 5 more years here in suburbia and I'll start on my own private range.....:twisted::bigsmyl2:

[mellonhead]

Well I'll start by saying my load developement method is a bit backwards from most. I usually try new loads out at longrange then see what they will do at 100 and 50 if I think they are good enough. I loaded 15 of these up tonight in front of 14 grains of HS6. I am partial to back deck shooting here also but I took these about 1/4 mile up the road to my long range. I fired all 15 from about 375 yards. I was getting about a 36" group. Now this doesn't sound that great but this is a 6" barreled iron sighted gun. So far I am impressed. I might load some more tomorrow and get the chrony out.

Toby

[subsonic]

Let me know about the leading, if there is any guys.

And Jim, don't feel left out. Your package of goodies should arrive by Tuesday... :mrgreen:

[Frank]

It looks like you are right there with one load! Now shoot the others and it should be better. That was smart to start with the right hardness and a good lube. You tested the design and it does shoot well. Great. Now tune with the powder charges and you are done with the load work.

[subsonic]

Thanks Frank. I do intend to play with powder charges once I figure out what charge gives what speed and where the top end limit is - which is why I was planning to take the chronograph.

I want to be fair to Toby's boolit/target up there. I have shot better groups than that with his load - close to 2" at 50yds. That was just the group I shot this time. I try to show everything when I'm showing stuff, even the times I didn't do so hot, lest I get a reputation I don't deserve :-D

[Frank]

subsonic:

Thanks Frank. I do intend to play with powder charges once I figure out what charge gives what speed and where the top end limit is - which is why I was planning to take the chronograph.

I want to be fair to Toby's boolit/target up there. I have shot better groups than that with his load - close to 2" at 50yds. That was just the group I shot this time. I try to show everything when I'm showing stuff, even the times I didn't do so hot, lest I get a reputation I don't deserve

I worked up until it sticks then go down and find load. What does chronograph tell you?

[subsonic]

If I am over book velocity, I am very likely over max pressure, even if the cases fall out of the gun. You just don't get one without the other. I know, having a long nosed boolit can give you a little something for nothing, but not really.

[Frank]

subsonic:

If I am over book velocity, I am very likely over max pressure, even if the cases fall out of the gun. You just don't get one without the other. I know, having a long nosed boolit can give you a little something for nothing, but not really.
Book velocity for jacketed? I thought cast bullets were supposed to go 200 fps faster for the same pressure. [smilie=p:

[subsonic]

Book velocity for cast with the same or greater OAL.

I will give you that you can probably get another 150, maybe 200fps in certain circumstances over jacketed in revolvers. Especially if you hang the nose way out there where it scrapes the barrel shank. But it's a trade-off.

[44man]

Kind of amazing how the big guns shoot with all the recoil! Even the JRH can do an inch at 100 and maybe less. I figure anything I can see, it can hit. I had a rock so small I had to put paper behind it and I blew it to dust. A little hard with the Ultra Dot and size of the dot but darn if it doesn't work. I did use a scope when I shot the 5 shotgun shells in the bases at 50---yeah, I had to cheat! :kidding: It was crazy to shoot 3/4" targets with 1/2" boolits.
I don't know what it is but the big calibers seem easier to find accuracy with, just don't seem to be as touchy.
Then Whitworth stopped by to show me a new Jack Huntington conversion. .357 max to .500 special. Huge case, larger then the JRH but smaller then the S&W.
The gun is perfection, so beautiful it is a shame to dirty. It has a Bisley grip that is changed for more knuckle room and fantastic feeling grip panels. There is also a perfect amount of cylinder play, hardy felt but enough. It has a strong mainspring and the trigger is like a glass rod snapping. I can't wait to shoot it.
If he ever sells it with out asking me, I will beat him! He is bigger then me but I have big sticks! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:
If you want a real custom, look no farther then Huntington.

[subsonic]

I think I heard about that gun over on the sixgun forum. Maybe a .500 Maximum?

If I can ever justify a custom, it likely will go to Huntington.

PS: Quit telling people how good Jack is! My wait will be longer when I send him stuff!!:drinks:

I *think* the big guns shoot better because they HAVE to have good cylinder alignment or they will self destruct! And you can't really get a "cheap" gun above .45 caliber.

[Whitworth]

Then Whitworth stopped by to show me a new Jack Huntington conversion. .357 max to .500 special. Huge case, larger then the JRH but smaller then the S&W.
The gun is perfection, so beautiful it is a shame to dirty. It has a Bisley grip that is changed for more knuckle room and fantastic feeling grip panels. There is also a perfect amount of cylinder play, hardy felt but enough. It has a strong mainspring and the trigger is like a glass rod snapping. I can't wait to shoot it.
If he ever sells it with out asking me, I will beat him! He is bigger then me but I have big sticks! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:
If you want a real custom, look no farther then Huntington.

Settle down, nobody's getting a beating! You're always crying "fixed income" -- this one'll cost you a bit more than a BFR, or two, or three, or five, or six.....hahaha:kidding:

It's a .500 Maximum and for the record, the case is bigger than a .500 Smith (the size difference is academic at best).

[mellonhead]

Bowen explains the larger calibers shooting better in his book The Custom Revolver. He says that .003 of miss alignment on a .22 caliber does more to effect accuracy than the same .003 if it was a .500 caliber. A percentage thing.

Toby

[44man]

I think I heard about that gun over on the sixgun forum. Maybe a .500 Maximum?

If I can ever justify a custom, it likely will go to Huntington.

PS: Quit telling people how good Jack is! My wait will be longer when I send him stuff!!:drinks:

I *think* the big guns shoot better because they HAVE to have good cylinder alignment or they will self destruct! And you can't really get a "cheap" gun above .45 caliber.
Yeah, might be the maximum, I was so enthralled with the gun memory slips because of age. :veryconfu
I can not remember the name of one fellow he brought over either!
I am one of those that will forget a name as I shake hands. Never tell me your phone number, write it down. I can remember everything I did back to when I was 2 years old, but names and numbers are screwy things.
The gun is a perfect picture in my mind though. I think in mechanical pictures.
Maybe Whitworth will correct me and post a picture.

[44man]

Settle down, nobody's getting a beating! You're always crying "fixed income" -- this one'll cost you a bit more than a BFR, or two, or three, or five, or six.....hahaha:kidding:

It's a .500 Maximum and for the record, the case is bigger than a .500 Smith (the size difference is academic at best).
OK, that's better. Thanks for correcting me but you need to post a picture of that wonderful thing.
Also give me the name again of that nice guy that was over. I need to write it down. Just E mail me.
When will you bring them to shoot? I was disappointed that you could not stay. I even mowed the range.

[Whitworth]

Here it is:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/MarkoR/_VJR1772.jpg

[44man]

Take a good look fellas and you see why I forgot some things. [smilie=1:

[subsonic]

That is very nice.


Looks light in the muzzle, the way it balances just sitting there like that :kidding::lol:

[tek4260]

Well I got around to shooting a few. I think they are going to be accurate. Matter of fact I know they are!. Here is my 5 shot group. I tried at 50 like ol Subsonic and I am not as good! That target looks tiny and the sights are quite shiny. I think I like shooting off the deck in the shade better than sitting at the bench in the sun at 90 degrees.

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/DSCN1094.jpg

But it was a pretty interesting act to get the group pulled off. Here is after 1st shot

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/DSCN1093.jpg

So my wife, in all her sweetness, couldn't stand by and let me continue to get pounded. So she made me a bandage.

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/DSCN1095.jpg

Nice and comfy but doesn't do much to help with control. Plus it left sticky all over my beautiful grips! And another thing. Look at the red spots under the tape. There are 3 of em resulting from the last 4 shots of that group. Seems that gauze lets the hammer get to you a bit!

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/Untitled-4.jpg

I'll chrony a few in a bit when I get the sticky off my grip! I'd rather clean blood off of it from now on.

[tek4260]

1254 Subsonics boolit over 25gr of H110
1313 Lee 400 over 26gr H110
1267 Hornady factory 400gr HP

I am pretty impressed by the numbers considering I am shooting a 4 5/8.

The next batch of Subsonics will be over 26gr of H110. At 25gr there is a good bit of room, probably over 1/8" to 100%. I'll also measure and see just exactly what would be 100%.

I'll also load some of the 385gr Mihec HP's to nearly 100% and see how they do. I am pretty sure I can get somewhere around 28-29gr of H110 with them.

[subsonic]

I was anxious to see how they shot for you. Been checking the net off and on all morning.

Was it the edge of the grip frame below the hammer that got you? That gets me sometimes on some guns.

What load did you try? Pressure signs? Leading?

And FWIW, I cheated. The Ultra-Dot 30 makes the sight picture at 50yds easy as pie. With irons and a short barrel, I'd probably group about like what you just did, likely worse! Good shooting! BTW, I kinda stole your target idea too.

[tek4260]

Yes it is the edge of the grip frame by the hammer. They never get me offhand, but from the bags they do sometimes.

The load was 25gr of H110. There wasn't a trace of leading. Only a smear of lube down the barrel. I actually took a piece of paper towel and pushed it thru the bore once and it was shining. I purposefully shot yours last after the factories to see if there was any leading. 5 rounds isn't much, but if it is going to lead it should show up in 5.

I believe if I hadn't shown my wife my hand I would have gotten a better group without all the vertical stringing.

I really didn't care much for this revolver at first, even though it shot well the few times I shot it. Now that it has grips, and when my Simply Rugged holster shows up, I believe it will be a favorite. :)

[tek4260]

Oh yea, I am going to trace a washer and make some copies for more "professional" targets.

[mellonhead]

Finally got a little time today to fling a few of these. I was shooting at about 75 yards from my beach chair. I was using my knees as a rest.

http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv243/mellonhead1973/000_0004-6.jpg

I have fired about 30 of these so far and no real leading at all. This was loads using 14 grains of HS6.

Toby

[subsonic]

If you want some of the targets like the ones I shot, let me know. I made them up in microsoft word and have a word document saved at work to print them from. I can upload, forward, email, etc that word doc to anyone that wants it - but it's so simple you can really use word to make whatever targets you want. Just use the autoshape menu. Turn gridlines on and calibrate them to 1/8" or 1/4" and set "snap objects to gridlines". Then just make shapes and drag, drop, change color, etc. You can right click "format autoshape" and type in the dimensions, like make a 3.5" dia circle, etc.

[subsonic]

Looks like they work in FAs too! And don't have to be pushed to the limit to stabilize.

[mellonhead]

Just to give my bullet a little justice!!!!!!

http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv243/mellonhead1973/000_0005-1.jpg

Toby

[subsonic]

:-D

Nice!

[44man]

Good shooting but I seen BLOOD!. Grips too smooth and some roll from not holding tight enough. Wear a good glove for grip friction.
Yes, darn it, pretty grips can hurt and is why I like rubber.
I love wood, ivory, etc but I keep my guns fugly to shoot. :bigsmyl2:
Hey Tek, what in the world is that bandage? It looks like oven wrap! [smilie=l:

[tek4260]

Like I said, my wife was trying to help with some padding! :D

The only time I have trouble is when I shoot from the bench. It's my fault for using my sandbag turned sideways. It is too low and I am pretty much laying on the bench with my elbows pressed into it. The revolver has no choice but to roll up.

[subsonic]

That's how I *LIKE* to shoot. Both arms down, short pile of sandbags, and the butt of the gun on a very small sandbag (~1" thick) on a carpeted wooden table.

[44man]

That's how I *LIKE* to shoot. Both arms down, short pile of sandbags, and the butt of the gun on a very small sandbag (~1" thick) on a carpeted wooden table.
I get pretty low too and use a shorter seat to get my eyes more in line. Stinking glasses need replaced, I have to tilt my head up anymore.
But watch the rug, use elbow pads.
I have a pair of pants with a hole in the knee. I was playing with my dog and skidded my knee on the carpet----WOW, took over a week to heal.
Bloody elbows make it hard to shoot! :x

[bigboredad]

That's how I *LIKE* to shoot. Both arms down, short pile of sandbags, and the butt of the gun on a very small sandbag (~1" thick) on a carpeted wooden table.

I like a Towel that way I can adjust how much padding my elbows need

[sixshot]

Good shooting guys, getting harder all the time to see the irons but I stick with it anyway. I use an old basketball knee pad on my right elbow when shooting from the bench, works great. Only takes a few shots without it & the accuracy is gone!
Came really, really close to whacking a bear yesterday with one of my 380 gr MiHa slugs in the 5 shot 480, I'll post later today when I find my camera, we did get one bear.

Dick

[subsonic]

Don't go over 25gr H110/296 for sure, 24.5 is probably max or slightly over max pressure.

25gr = 1500fps in my 7.5" (8.25") BFR.

[subsonic]

This is probably what I would order today. This design will allow a little more powder beneath it so it's not so touchy near max pressure.

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/newest475.png

Mountain Molds does a great job and Tom at Accurate Molds can make a mold like this as well.

[tek4260]

Been meaning to post the pictures of the primers on my brass from the 25 and 26gr loads. Not really any difference I can detect, but my revolver may be the exception.

The 26gr brass is the one with 26 written(somewhat) on the head

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/DSCN1121.jpg
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/DSCN1120.jpg

Sorry for the **** photos

[44man]

Very good mainspring impact.
But primers are a poor pressure indicator. Sticky extraction means back off. Even then, brass can fall out easy when over pressure.
A case hard to remove scares me big time.
Depends on the gun and dimensions. My .44 flattens a lot of primers with well below max loads, brass just falls out. I ignore the primers because I know what I load but the guns dimensions cause it.

[tek4260]

26# springs in all mine now :)