Colt Police Positive...not so positive

[shooting on a shoestring]

I've shot about 600 +/- rounds through my 1923 Colt Police Positive in .38 Spl. They've all been light loads. Most in the 600 fps range with 140 grain boolits. A few as fast as 750 (only a handfull). This is not a piece to hotrod, and I've got other modern .38s and .357s for going faster. But it is a hoot to shoot....till it broke.

After a cylinder full of 2.7 grains Bullseye pushing the Lee 140 SWC with no issue, I pulled the hammer back on the first round of the second cylinder full. I felt the revoler sieze. The hammer was back, the trigger was locked, the cylinder and round lined up with the barrel. No amount of jiggling and wiggling would dislodge the hammer or unlock the trigger.

After some thought and worry, I whipped out the screwdrivers and pulled the sideplate. I managed to get the hammer safely down and the cylinder open to unload the gun. Thats where I called good enough time to quit, put the sideplate back on and set it aside for the rest of the afternoon's shooting.

At home on my work bench I had a more detailed look inside the revolver. Turns out there's a tiny, about 0.040" spud that sticks out the right side of the trigger that engages a thin metal lever that lowers the hammer block as the trigger moves rearward. That little spud slipped out of the thin metal lever and kicked up a burr in the process. The disengaged parts tied up the revolver. A bit of stoning, and some judicious "adjusting" (read bending) the hammer block lever, all went back together and worked well again.

While poking around inside the revolver I was surprised that several parts were highly dependent on tiny "spuds" and spurs staying engaged in various parts. More parts than K or J frame Smiths, and much less robust. I understand why these are not guns that can stand up to unlimited firing. These cute little PPS revolvers look like a shoot a little, fix it, shoot it a little more, fix it again type of gun. A nice toy, but I don't want to use it for anything more dangerous than a paper target.

I'm a diehard revolver shooter, carry one, don't currently own an autoloader. However, this little PPS, even though cute, is not a dependable piece. I'm surprised. I had assumed a double action Colt, even from the twenties would be better engineered.

I'm going to keep the little Colt, and shoot some. I do like the little gun. However, I'll not be in the market for another Colt.

[rintinglen]

The Colt D-Frames are not the most durable, but I have shot thousands of rounds through them without running into the problem that you just had. I have owned something like 15 of them, and while they are susceptible to timing problems and spitting lead I never had one lock up. I only have 3 now, an old 1926 Police Positive Special, a 1990's era Dick Special and a third Issue Cobra, but they are one of my favorite types of revolvers. Still, anything mechanical can break. Luckily, most things that break can be fixed. Take a look at Coltpython.blogspot.com for a bunch of info on working on V-spring Colts.

[Ragnarok]

Colt guys will get pissy if you tell them their revolvers are delicate.

[Guesser]

Colt revolvers of that era are delicate!! Metallurgy was not what it is today and every component was hand fitted. I like the old guns and have several in all the cataloged chamberings but I shoot them single action and keep them clean and looooobricated, just exactly the same way I do my Smiths from the same era.

[David LaPell]

I owned a Colt Police Positive and had some issues but my Official Police was as tough as nails. I have a Colt New Service on layaway and from everything i have read that are as durable as all get out.

[olafhardt]

I have got to speak up for the police positive at least the one I have. When I first got it I had just started reloading. I beiieve there was an error in the data I used for 32 s&w long. My first batch of 50 sounded likey 357 but I shot em all anyway. I reduced the ioad about 10% and kept on shooting. A guy showed up with a crno and I was getting 1135 fps with a 90grain swc. I kept this nonsense up for over 1000 rounds before I came to my senses. The gun is still really tight and functions perfectly so I can't call it delicate.

[Guesser]

Please keep in mind a separation issue. The Police Positive is a different gun from the Police Positive Special. The Police Positive is a smaller framed gun, cylinder not long enough to chamber 38 Special or 32-20. The longer cartridges were chambered in the PPS. The PPS is a "D" frame as is the later Diamondback. Referring to the PP in 32, I have several and I also have a PPS in 32, I passed up a PPS dated 1955 that had been rechambered to accept the 32 H&R Magnum cartridge, supposedly this rechambering was done about 1990. All this just to point out that there are a lot of similarities and a lot of differences in the PP/PPS family.

[MtGun44]

If you read my thread on my PP, you will see that I make the same commments. The
Colt design has much more dependence on tiny, sharp, hand fitted pieces - just as you
say. It WILL wear faster.

They are nice little guns, but my comment in the other thread was something like
"Colt isn't making revolvers anymore [except for the SAA in the custom shop] for a good
reason, their design absolutely will require hand fitting of every single one, and this is not
very cost effective in this day."

I have 'smithed extensively on S&Ws and somewhat on Colts and the S&W are much
more durable designs in the lockwork, and have been significantly modernized over
the last 50 yrs, to the point that a lot of old K-frame parts will not even fit, let alone
work, in a newer K-frame.

I'm sure some folks will get cranky, and tell me how their gun has lasted and lasted.

Please understand - I am not saying they are junk or not nice guns. I have a number of
Colt revolvers and I like them. But it is a fact that they are trickier and more delicate to
set up right and will go out of time sooner than a similar vintage S&W.

That said, I've never been inside a Trooper, and I think it may have a new design lockwork,
and maybe this does not apply, not sure at all. Never been inside my Anaconda, either,
and no idea what it is like. I'm talking about PP, PP Special and Colt 1917 which I think
is that same as the New Service.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

The Mk III (and later) Troopers had a more robust lockwork than the older "V-spring" Colts. Your Anaconda's lockwork is very similar to that of the Trooper.

The V-spring Colts and their lockwork come from a time where there were Colt-trained armorers and gunsmiths in large numbers on police departments and in private trade. I adore my V-spring Colts, but know them for what they are--and they are not as durable as S&W lockworks. Pre-war S&W lockworks aren't the equal of post-war S&W lockworks, either.

it is FOOLISH to push the ballistic envelope with older examples of revolvers that are finite in number with limited parts availability. Use them and enjoy them--but don't run them like NASCAR Chevies and expect them to last 200K miles like a family sedan. If your tastes run to racing venues, Ruger Blackhawks might be a better place to start.

[pdawg_shooter]

My "delicate" 1964 made Python has over 6000 full power loads through it with no problems. Still tight and in perfect time. Hate to think what it would take to wear out a "more robust" handgun.

[Guesser]

I agree with the admonition to use them according to their age and design. I love the old Colts and my favorite Smiffs are the old, pre model # guns. My absolute favorite Smiths are "I" frame and "Improved I" frame guns. My 57-1 is good but not as "touchy-feely" as the old ones. I feel the same way about my Colts, the pre WWII guns are much closer to me than my Python or late model DS. All of them are good guns but I do have favorites.

[harvester]

A sports car takes more maintenance than an F 150.

[Guesser]

Yeah and the suspension sucks when its loaded with a half ton of hay on it's way to the feed yard!!!!
Sports car, I mean!!!

[Char-Gar]

I am a fan of older Colt DA and have a number I shoot on a regular basis. But the hard truth is that from the big New Service, to the smaller PP, they will wear faster than Smith lockwork.

The little D frames were not meant for plinking and a large number of rounds, and will develop issues quicker than the larger frame pistols.

All will develop issues over time due to the bottom step of the hand being hard fitted and taking the recoil of the load. This is not a hard problem to cure, but you can expect it sooner or later in old Colt DA sixguns.

When Colt redesigned the lock work for the new model Trooper, the started with sintered iron parts that gave an awful action. They eventually broke the code on that, but not before a bad reputation was developed for the newer style action. I don't think the larger frame Anacondas developed this problem.

The older Colts DA are a marvel of design and hand fitting.

[x101airborne]

Shoot, you want to talk 'delicate', I wanted to carry my python on the force for extra duty and BBQ's. Of course, I had to qualify with it. During the "dive for cover" drills, I knocked it out of time and got a knuckle full of jacket for my troubles. Took it to the smith who started pulling out PLASTIC parts!!!! I never did carry that weapon on duty. Used it a couple times for matches, but that is it. And it never did outshoot my smiths.

[pdawg_shooter]

Shoot, you want to talk 'delicate', I wanted to carry my python on the force for extra duty and BBQ's. Of course, I had to qualify with it. During the "dive for cover" drills, I knocked it out of time and got a knuckle full of jacket for my troubles. Took it to the smith who started pulling out PLASTIC parts!!!! I never did carry that weapon on duty. Used it a couple times for matches, but that is it. And it never did outshoot my smiths.

Yep, and I know a dude who can wreck an anvil with a rubber mallet. You related?

[Char-Gar]

I have never heard of platic parts in a Python, but who knows. Things got very bad at Colt for a time. I have owned three or four Pythons over the years and only one ever lived up to the hype. The rest were just so-so guns and not worthy the price.

These pistols were created on the same basic frame as the Army Special which become the Official Police. The metal was heat treated better and the firing pin taken off the hammer and placed in the frame.

I have two old Model Troopers and a couple of Official Police and one Army Special on that frame and they are all great sixguns. Throw in a couple of New Service 45, a 1917 or two, plus a great 3" Detective Special and I am happy with what I have. I am not on the hunt for a Python having been burned a couple of times.

[excess650]

The Colt Trooper was built on the ".41 frame" as were the Official Police, Officers Model, officers Model Match, Officers Model Special, Three Fifty Seven, and the Python. The Trooper was made until it was replace with the MKIII(coil spring action) in 1970 or so. I have several and prefer the V-spring action to the later coil spring actions. That said, I prefer a S&W for double action shooting over ANY Colt, including the "factory tuned" Python that I had for a short time.

I own S&Ws and Colts, but the Colts are all V-spring variety. I think all of my S&Ws predate 1990 or so. My lone Ruger is a 5-1/2" Redhawk.

[MtGun44]

I will bet dollars to doughnuts that there were never any plastic parts in the lockwork of a Python.
I think your gunsmith was either pulling your leg or padding his bill. I cannot imagine any kind of
polymer that could put up with the very high stress on all the interior parts of a Colt v mainspring
lock. Heck, the steel parts are prone to relatively rapid wear, plastic parts would have no chance.

Like I said - it will irk some folks, and it clearly did. As to 6000 rds, it is a lot for some, 6 months
practice for others. I had a friend wear out a brand new 8" Python in ~18 months of shooting, but
he put probably 30-35,000 rounds of full power .357 mags through it. Bore and cyl were worn enough
and the interior parts, too, that it really wasn't worth fixing. Killed a heck of a lot of jackrabbits
in the desert with it, though. He was on a wild tear on jackrabbits at that time, moved from
KC to AZ to get at 'em. He traded in a brand new, seriously defective S&W 27 on it in the early
1980s, (gunshop warranty - they let him pick out another gun and sent the S&W back to the
factory) and the Python was super accurate for most of that time, until it was finally worn out and
he retired it.

I LIKE COLTS, but I am not silly about the old girls' limitations. Glad to hear that the
Trooper and Anaconda are a different design. I imagine that some day I may open up
the big snake and see what makes it tick, but not on the immediate 'to do' list.

Bill

[Grapeshot]

I'm glad that I saw this thread. I own three Colt Revolvers, a Colt .38 Army Special, Colt New Service M1909 in .45 Colt, and a Colt Anaconda in .45 Colt.

I have had some issues with the New Service and the Anaconda. The Anaconda did not like to fire rounds in double action. Changed the main spring and finally had to file down the Hammer Nose to get the Firing Pin to HIT the primer hard enought to light off the powder charge.[smilie=b:

The NS was in need of timing and that was the only headache I had with it. It shoots cast lead great out of either .45 Colt Cases or .45 Schofield Cases.

The Colt Army Special worked great, even after sitting in a pawn shop for 10 plus years when I found it and recognised it for what it was. Got it for a steal. Shoots center of mass with either jacketed or cast lead.:castmine:

But I still prefer S&W for a Duty gun.:Fire:

[Char-Gar]

Servicing and keeping the old lockwork running was standard fare for gunsmiths back in the day when they were in the holster of many police officers. These days, it is hard to find a gunsmith who knows his way around the innards of such a pistol, much less keep it working.

[pdawg_shooter]

Of the 7 Pythons I have owned over the years, 2 right now, I have had them completely disassembled twice a year for complete cleaning and have NEVER seen a plastic part in any of them. My B.S. meter pegged out when I read that.

[MtGun44]

Grapeshot -

Timing on a Colt is the first thing to go. If the hand or rachet wears just a bit, it won't
time up properly and this is bad, since the Colt system locks the cyl solid between the
hand and cyl bolt at the point of firing. Any misalignment pounds the parts. S&W wisely
leaves a touch of clearance so the cyl can line it self up the last .001 or .002 as the boolit
leaves the cyl without hammering on delicate parts.

Sounds like the Big Snake was really safe. ;-)

Bill

[shooting on a shoestring]

So I've been thinking. The little Colt PPS is a 1923. A new Ford in 1923 was a Model T. Even if I drove a Model T slow as it should be, I couldn't expect it to handle the miles of a daily commuter. Neither should I expect a Colt V Spring to be a daily shooter. Design and metalurgy have both improved. So I'll drive my fuel injected, computer controlled F150 the 55 miles to the shooting range and run several hundred rounds through my GP100. The V spring Colt will sit at home in a comfy pistol rug.

[MtGun44]

Shoot the old girl, just avoid hot handloads and hard, fast double action shooting and
they will last well. A touch of quality grease on the star and hand tip won't hurt a bit
and may reduce the wear here.

Use, not abuse, is my approach.

By the way, has anyone else note that the company has gone back to calling it
a "Colt's 1911" as opposed to the "Colt 1911"?

All the old articles called them "Colt's Police Positive" and wrote about shooting the latest "Colt's",
it looks like the company has decided to go back to the old term.

Bill

[Guesser]

I have 5 Colt revolvers in 32-20 all built before 1925, I shoot them, that's what they were built for.
The PPS, 4" in 38 Special is one of my favorite belt guns. A DS is my favorite CCW gun. Why? Because I know how they work and I trust them.

[Trapshooter]

An acquaintance of mine has a 32 Colt New Pocket Positive which appears to have some missing parts. I've looked on the net and haven't been able to find a good picture of the lockwork for this particular revolver. It appears to be similar to, but different from the police positive. Also looking for a source for parts, or someone who would be willing to take some pictures / measurements so I could make the parts. The gun was his uncles, a store keeper in Az, and according to their "family legends" this revolver was used on two occasions to save his life.

Thanks,

Trapshooter

[Guesser]

Trapshooter: If it is a Pocket Positive it will be the same as any other positive as far as lock work, except for size of components. If it is a "New Pocket" then it did not have the positive feature in the lock work. The name "New Pocket Positive" is wrong; it is either a New Pocket or a Pocket Positive. The change was started in 1907, I have a PP dated 1907 but it is a transition model marked both New Pocket on the left side plate and the barrel is marked Pocket Positive. I was not sure about it until I removed the side plate and verified that it did have the "positive" lock work and was simply a transitional gun, using up remaining part. It happened with Colt every time the brought out a new named model.

[beagle]

I have a 1958(?) era 4" Python and got it right after they came out. No plastic parts in it either but as you guys have pointed out, they're delicate. I encountered some spitting at about 10-12,000 rounds so I replaced the hand and it went away. I carried a lot in the field in the Army and at just over 20,000 rounds and my retirement, I sent it to Colt and had it reworked and reblued as it was looking kind of ratty and spitting a little again. Since then, I figured I'd retire it and it's taking a well deserved rest.

So Pythons do have delicate innards.

Interesting story on the new hand. I took the old hand to a Colt dealer in Raleigh, NC. It was a Friday night and I got into the store right before it closed. I think a replacement clerk was waiting on me and I told him I needed a part for a Python so he dug into his plastic box and we matched parts and came up with one. When I asked him, "How much?" He looked at is said, "That looks like about a quarter's worth." Best deal I have ever made on a gun part./beagle

[MtGun44]

beagle,

Don't ever plan on finding a clerk selling parts at those prices again! You really lucked out.

Your spitting was the hand wearing (as you found) and letting the timing get a bit off. Nice
guns but the critical parts are highly stressed and have small contact points, so they wear
faster.
Still -they are nice guns, and Pythons were some of the most accurate pistols ever built in quantity.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

Fitting a new hand to one of those old lockwork Colts is an art in itself. At the factory they fit it very tight and whack it on the muzzle a couple of time with a rawhide or wooden mallet mate the hand to the ratchet. Shooting a couple cylinders of ammo will do the same thing, but the whacking is cheaper.

The old worn hand can be stretched a time or two and refitted before a new one is needed.

[MtGun44]

I stretched the hand on my Police Positive, hope to get another cycle and then I know
(if I ever shoot it that much) it's take a new one.

Bill

[dubber123]

How would it work if after refitting the hand, you use some Casenit to surface harden the part? Are they on the soft side on purpose, to prevent breaking from a too hard part? I don't have any Colts, all Smiths, but you never know, it might be good information to have.

[Guesser]

I'm thinking that the hand is softer than the ratchet because it is so much easier and cheaper to replace the hand than the ratchet on Colts.