Hardening Cast bullets

[HammeringHank100]

First, I have never cast bullets. I have the equipment which I purchased back in the 70's. I have 5 bars of Linotype about 4 ft. long. I do have access to used wheel weights. Can you tell me how to harden wheel weights. After casting do I size and then harden. Or when removing from the mold do I drop in water? Thanks, Hank

[Larry Gibson]

Is there a real need for you to "harden" the cast bullets?

You can mix the linotype with the WWs at a 40/60 ratio and get a BHN of 15+/- which make a good alloy will do for most cast bullet shooting with just air cooling of the bullets. I prefer to add 2% tin to that which improves the ternary properties of the alloy and gives a BHN of 18+/-. That alloy is excellent wihth the bullets just air cooled for 99% of all my cast bullet shooting except very soft bullets for very low velocities and when I want excellent expansion for hunting bullets.

Any of these alloys can be water quenched out of the mould for hardening to 22 - 26 BHN. Oven heat treating can give a bit higher BHN but i find it seldom necessary for my cast bullet shooting needs (handgun and rifle from low velocity to high velocity).

Larry Gibson

[Lefty SRH]

I started casting and water dropping and later found out that is can cause sizing problems. Straight clip on WW are plenty hard.

Why do you want to harden them?

[Lefty SRH]

And in most cases they is no need for the extra steps. I learned the hard/frustrating/time consuming way. No water dropping for me now!

[TNFrank]

I read in a magazine(forget where) are heat treating WW alloy bullets. Main thing is that you have to have some antimony in the mix for it to work. You can dump a little shotgun shot into your lead pot to get the antimony. IIRC(and don't quote me on this) they went from a hardness of 9 up to around 13.

[williamwaco]

Clip on wheel weights are already too hard for handgun bullets and Linotype is WAY to hard for even rifle bullets - unless you are going elephant hunting.

If you have any range scrap, mix it 50/50 with wheel weights ( clip on wheel weights )
If you can get some pure lead mix it about 20pb/80ww with clip on wheel weights.

Save your linotype for hardening up pure scrap lead and for a source of tin.

Stick-on wheel weights are soft enough to be considered pure lead.


Welcome to the club

And PS. Never ignore Larry Gibson. He will always keep you out of trouble. He just likes his metal a little harder than I do.


.

[JohnFM]

This gets more and more confusing.
First we read that the old style WW are ideal as is, then that they need to have linotype added to harden up the alloy some.
Now we see a statement that they're too hard as is!
Sure don't make it easy.

[williamwaco]

This gets more and more confusing.
First we read that the old style WW are ideal as is, then that they need to have linotype added to harden up the alloy some.
Now we see a statement that they're too hard as is!
Sure don't make it easy.

Differences of opinion make horse races.

Take a look at Larry Gibson's Gold and silver bullets then remember this. He knows what he is talking about.

[Larry Gibson]

This gets more and more confusing.
First we read that the old style WW are ideal as is, then that they need to have linotype added to harden up the alloy some.
Now we see a statement that they're too hard as is!
Sure don't make it easy.

How "hard" an alloy needs to be for cast bullets depends simply on the application. A genaric alloy of 15 - 16 BHN (Similar to or the same as Lyman's #2 alloy) will do nicely for 99.9% of all cast bullet shooting. This forum brings out the the cast bullet "tekkies" (me included) that fall into the other 1% of "need". Since we are the most vocal you'll here about the 1%'s "need" more often here. Shouldn't be overly confussing as with a good alloy of 90-94% lead, 3-5% tin and 3-5% antimony air cooled cast bullets will have a BHN of 14 - 17, will cast very good bullets and will fill 99% of the cast bullet shooting needs. I guess it's just us 1 percenters that confuse things or is ti that we're confused.........:drinks:

Larry Gibson

[cbrick]

This gets more and more confusing.
First we read that the old style WW are ideal as is, then that they need to have linotype added to harden up the alloy some. Now we see a statement that they're too hard as is!
Sure don't make it easy.

The term "HardCast" is evil and leads to it's own set of problems. The term "HardCast" is an old wives tale that was once widely believed. There are numerous old wives tales concerning cast bullets, this site has gone a long ways to dispelling many of them.

Old wives tales die hard, don't fall for an old wives tale.

Rick

[runfiverun]

my most favoriite alloy is 1% tin 3%antimony and some arsenic [or sulpher if i am making it from scratch]
this will do 90% of everything i need done with lead.
the other alloy i use is 4% tin and 6% antimony this covers the other 9% easily.
the last 1% is soft/pure lead.
why did i settle on these alloys you ask.
they are close to ww alloy.
they can easily be made from teracorp magnum alloy and pure lead.
they can easily be made from linotype and pure lead.
they can be made easily from just about any alloy i can find with the addition of either linotype or pure lead.
i can get close enough to either alloy [with some weighing and guessing] that the gun can't tell the difference between one batch and the next.

[JohnFM]

One source I read by G. Fryxell gave WW at~12, Lyman #2 at~15, and Linotype at ~22.
A commercially cast handgun bullet I use a lot of is labeled as 18.
About every one I know reloads, but only a couple guys do any casting.
And they only for handguns and use plain WW.

I was going to pick up 200 lbs. of WW when I go to town next week.
He has a supply of Linotype too and thought I'd get some of that too if it sounded like it would be a good idea.
I just want to get started smelting some down into ingots while I figure out just what all I need to get yet to start casting some, which for now will just be for .357.

Sounds like I better get a hardness tester from some maker.

[cbrick]

I just want to get started smelting some down into ingots while I figure out just what all I need to get yet to start casting some, which for now will just be for .357.

I suggest that you do not blend your alloy as you get it, keep your WW poured into ingots as is and the same with any other alloys such as Lino. Blend the needed alloy as you need it and you can mix up anything you need on down the road. If you blend it all together now you have one alloy.

Rick

[JohnFM]

I suggest that you do not blend your alloy as you get it, keep your WW poured into ingots as is and the same with any other alloys such as Lino. Blend the needed alloy as you need it and you can mix up anything you need on down the road. If you blend it all together now you have one alloy.

Rick

I wasn't planning on doing any blending.
Just starting to build up a stack of nice clean WW ingots, but figured I could smelt some Linotype too and pour some ingots of that as well if I figured it would be worth having on hand.

[HammeringHank100]

Hey Guys, I just want to get wheel weights to equal Lyman #2 without using Linotype. I have read somewhere if you quenched and then sized the bullets it loses any hardness you put in buy quenching. Hank

[DLCTEX]

You haven't said what calibers you will cast for or if rifle or pistol. If you are casting only for pistol then hard cast is not necessary for most, and can even be detrimental. Rifle boolits pushed to higher velocities may need hard cast, particularly small calibers. Spend some time searching here and asking questions. There is a full staff of PHD's here when it comes to casting, and more.

[stubshaft]

I wasn't planning on doing any blending.
Just starting to build up a stack of nice clean WW ingots, but figured I could smelt some Linotype too and pour some ingots of that as well if I figured it would be worth having on hand.

While your at it you may want to get some pure and cast ingots of that too. Then you would have almost everything to make whatever alloy you want to use.

[HammeringHank100]

I would like to cast for .38/357 6" Pythons. Colt .45ACP Gold Cups and .44 Special/Mag. Hank

[Bret4207]

Hank, you can load any of the rounds you listed to full power with straight WW or softer. You don't need HARDER alloy, not until your gun tells you it needs it. FIT comes first in this game.

Everything you and JohnFM are looking for is in these pages, often in the stickies. Read, read, read and then go back and read some more.

[HammeringHank100]

Thank You for your input. I would like to have an answer to my original question. Heat treat before or after sizing and what is the procedure? Now for the reason... I have been reloading handgun ammo for over 40 years. However I've never cast a bullet. I would buy cast lead bullets in bulk. The quilaty was good to poor. My barrels would lead up so bad it took a lot of effort to get out. I want to get wheel weights to Lyman #2 Hardness. Hank

[AKROADKILL]

how long do you take to test the bh i did it right after the bullet cooled down. ive put 15lbs of ww and 5 lynotpe and still get bh 9. do i need more lynotype?

[runfiverun]

no..
it takes 7-10 days to get full hardness from air cooled cast boolits.
water dropping will get you near full hardness in that time also.
[i like to wait 14 or more days ]
your final hardness should be @14 bhn.
your alloy should be 1.375 tin and 5.25 antimony and .1875 arsenic [off the top of my head real quick]
plenty hard enough to push well over 2k in a rifle.

[Iron Mike Golf]

HammeringHank100,

Keep in mind that hardening from heat treating is not immediate. With the same alloy, air cooled is the same hardness as freshly heat treated or water dropped. You start seeing a significant difference after 1-2 days and you get a good ways to final hardness after 1 week.

It also depends on how much you are sizing. If you are doing a big reduction, needing several sizing dies, the defnitley either before or right after heat treating. You can find stories here of folks waiting too long and breaking their sizer.

I use an alloy in the range you are talking about, 92-4-4. I use range lead that is 2% Sb, pewter, and monotype. I normally water drop. Fresh bullets are abot 14 BHN. After 1 week they are 22 BHN. My boolits are either shot as cast or get sized less that .002. I have sized some as old as 2 weeks following water dropping. No real difficulty. No loss in hardness as measured on the nose, either.

[R.M.]

From what I know of it, guys HT both before and after. Water-dropped are after of course, but they can be sized after oven treating.
It sounds to me that you had a bad experience with commercial lead, so now believe you need to heat-treat. You'd be better to do some reading here and learn that making the boolit fit your gun, and not to over-crimp.
I load for hand-gun mostly, and have never used a boolit harder than air-cooled wheel-weights. My 45 bullseye loads run in the 10 bhn neighborhood. Very soft by some people's standards.

[williamwaco]

One source I read by G. Fryxell gave WW at~12, Lyman #2 at~15, and Linotype at ~22.

Sounds like I better get a hardness tester from some maker.




Linotype is way to hard for any normal shooting use. I use it only Mixing with pure lead to make a harder alloy.

Clip on wheel weights are as close as you can get to a perfect all-around cast bullet alloy. You can improve on it for some special uses. Hollow points are an example. They are too hard for hollow points.

Now a word from the old Scottsman. Don't spend money on stuff you don't need until you have everything you really need and just want a new toy.

Millions of people have cast billions of lead bullets since around 1800. None of them had hardness testers. For close to 200 years, only industrial labratories had equipment like that.

A hardness tester is in the category of "new toy". I have been casting since about 1956 and bought my first hardness tester less than a year ago. It has been fun to play with but has not changed one single formula I use for mixing alloy. All it did was tell me the actuall hardness. AND Know what? Every one of those standard alloys and scrap mixes you see in the manuals and in Fryxell's "book" tested exactly what the publishers said they would. Thus, I gained a little entertainment from the device but no actual knowlege about how to mix alloys.

You do not "need" a hardness tester.



.



.

[Frank]

JohnFM:

This gets more and more confusing.
First we read that the old style WW are ideal as is, then that they need to have linotype added to harden up the alloy some.
Now we see a statement that they're too hard as is!
Sure don't make it easy.

You bet, it sure doesn't make it easy! There is one solution. The best thing to do is make an alloy that is tough but has a high BH. That means you need to mix your WW's with pure and water drop or HT. You can add linotype if further hardness is needed.

[HammeringHank100]

Thanks Guys, I hope I'm correct in saying. You cast a bullet, then drop the bullet in water which incresses its hardness. Then size the bullet and it will not lose any of the hardness that the water has added? Hank

[runfiverun]

if you size it before it startserr finishes hardening.
if i waterdrop a boolit and plan on sizing it down much, i get it sized within 2-3 days.

[Frank]

runfiverun:

if you size it before it startserr finishes hardening.
if i waterdrop a boolit and plan on sizing it down much, i get it sized within 2-3 days.
You can size them in one day. There is no need to wait to size if water dropping. Or you can wait longer to size if you don't have the time to do it in one day. Waiting doesn't hurt anything either.

[wtfooptimax200]

Prior to joining this website, all that I knew about boolits was heresay and often came from commercial boolit companies. If you believe what they say, we want our boolits to be as hard as rocks (ok, I'm being a bit dramatic). Luckily, people much wiser than me have lead me in the proper direction (thank you castboolits.gunloads.com)!

[Frank]

***ooptimax200:

Prior to joining this website, all that I knew about boolits was heresay and often came from commercial boolit companies. If you believe what they say, we want our boolits to be as hard as rocks (ok, I'm being a bit dramatic). Luckily, people much wiser than me have lead me in the proper direction (thank you castboolits.gunloads.com)!
What do you think a jacketed bullet is? A putty plug? Let's face it. You can get everybody to wave their arms up and down and scream, but the fact is if you want any accuracy out of any kind of a barrel, and I don't mean t shooting at a pie plate ten feet in front of you, you're going to need something on the outside of the bullet that is hard, period. If hard is so bad and so evil, then why don't we see the bullet manfacturers using a soft copper? It's because the bullet has to hold the rifling and maintain it's balance if it's going to be spinning thousands of rpm and doing it consistently down range.

[cbrick]

the fact is if you want any accuracy out of any kind of a barrel, and I don't mean t shooting at a pie plate ten feet in front of you, you're going to need something on the outside of the bullet that is hard, period.

Huh??

Very odd. Very odd indeed. Why do you cast? Or do you?

Rick

[runfiverun]

sierras jackets are very soft.
if hard was so great we would all be shooting bronze jackets with zinc alloy cores.

[nanuk]

Sounds like I better get a hardness tester from some maker.

nope.... you can use:
2 beer caps
some known pure lead
a large hardened ballbearing ( 1" diameter works well )
a way to squeeze 'em
a way to measure 'em
and some simple math..

Place the ball bearing between the lead sample and the unknown sample melted in the beer caps.
Squeeze the bearing and the two samples with a vice. you want the indent2 to be about 1/5 to 1/4 the diameter of the ball each
Measure and record the two indents with a good measuring tool

BHN= 5 X (lead dia./test dia.)squared

you can use ingots if they have very smooth sides and are close in size ( I am not certain they need to be same sized... but if you use an ingot mould, they will be anyways )

[JohnFM]

nope.... you can use:
2 beer caps
some known pure lead
a large hardened ballbearing ( 1" diameter works well )
a way to squeeze 'em
a way to measure 'em
and some simple math..

Place the ball bearing between the lead sample and the unknown sample melted in the beer caps.
Squeeze the bearing and the two samples with a vice. you want the indent2 to be about 1/5 to 1/4 the diameter of the ball each
Measure and record the two indents with a good measuring tool

BHN= 5 X (lead dia./test dia.)squared

you can use ingots if they have very smooth sides and are close in size ( I am not certain they need to be same sized... but if you use an ingot mould, they will be anyways )

Think I'd buy a hardness tester. :coffee:

[Frank]

cbrick:

Why do you cast? Or do you?
I cast.

[Frank]

JohnFM:

Think I'd buy a hardness tester. :coffee:
I'm glad I did. I was looking for specific hardness levels for my handguns and rifles. I casted 3 batches, and tested. BH 22, 27 & 33. Exactly what I needed. If they were wrong, I could send them back to the pot, but that doesn't happen very often. When I was new, I copied formula's and charts. Talk about confusing! Now easily I just get what I want. Even smelting was a breeze. I just lumped them all together, no sorting and figured it would all be 50/50. Oh, was I all worried I would never get the hardness I needed. But then I just have a little Sb and mag shot standing by if needed and so far that hasn't happened either.

[SlowSmokeN]

My barrels would lead up so bad it took a lot of effort to get out. I want to get wheel weights to Lyman #2 Hardness. Hank


Have your barrel slugged. As many people have said above what you got will work fine and you don't need to water drop for that low locality.

It sounds like your bullet was to small and you are having gas-blow by the bullet when fired.

OR

You are not using enough powder.

Sizing after quenching does not take away from the hardness

[Frank]

Have your barrel slugged. As many people have said above what you got will work fine and you don't need to water drop for that low locality.

I agree with fit. But if you don't water drop, what is the gain? Are you trying to get expansion?

[Bret4207]

***ooptimax200:

What do you think a jacketed bullet is? A putty plug? Let's face it. You can get everybody to wave their arms up and down and scream, but the fact is if you want any accuracy out of any kind of a barrel, and I don't mean t shooting at a pie plate ten feet in front of you, you're going to need something on the outside of the bullet that is hard, period. If hard is so bad and so evil, then why don't we see the bullet manfacturers using a soft copper? It's because the bullet has to hold the rifling and maintain it's balance if it's going to be spinning thousands of rpm and doing it consistently down range.

Drivel.

[cbrick]

Drivel.

Yep, a true encyclopedia of old wives tales being faithfully carried into the future. Not to worry though Bret, nothing has been learned in the last 50 years and old wives tales will serve us just fine.

Rick

[Frank]

cbrick:

Yep, a true encyclopedia of old wives tales being faithfully carried into the future. Not to worry though Bret, nothing has been learned in the last 50 years and old wives tales will serve us just fine.

Rick

Now you see him, now you don't. I just wanted an answer to a simple question. Why do you not want to water drop? Is there a gain?

[captaint]

I don't know, Frank. While I do shoot mostly pistol, my boolits are 50 WW & 50 misc lead. Rarely harder than BHN 10. If I shot magnum vel's more often, I guess they would have to be harder. I don't water drop anything. enjoy Mike

[olafhardt]

It is rumored that some cast to get a break from old wives but I don't know. I use straight WW with about 2-4% tin to enhance fillout seems to work fine. I think you can make casting what you want it to be once you start.

[williamwaco]

I routinely shoot half inch groups at 50 yards with my Thompson Contender .357 mag and .75" with an occasional .4" 100 yard groups with my Winchester 1885 in .38-55 caliber.

My bullets are really HARD, around BNH 9.


The only absolute rule in this casting game is this:

"There are NO absolute rules in this game."



.

[largom]

One absolute rule is 'The boolit must fit!" I don't shoot handguns much but I do shoot a lot of rifles and a lot of different calibers. I cast boolits for my rifles, not because I have to, but because I like to. Most of my rifle boolits are fairly soft cast of 55 to 60 % lead and 45 to 40 % wheel weights with 2% tin added. I do not water drop but allow boolits to age harden for 4 weeks. In 30 cal. rifles I can get 2400 fps with no leading. Have not tried for higher velocity because I don't need it.

Larry

[pls1911]

You have a near lifetime supply of Linotype.... now go scrounge about a ton of near pure lead from roof vents and flashing (it should be FREE!!!).
My final mix is roughly 30% Lyman #2,70% pure lead.
It casts soft , about 9 bhn, and heat treats to 23-28 bhn.
The beauty of this alloy is that as is it's fine for most non magnum pistol rounds .38 Spl, 45 ACP, 45 Colt).
Hardened this alloy shoots like linotype without being as brittle, as the low antimony content allows for greater retaining plasticity.
With the flexibility of heat treating, one alloy can be easily tailored for any application.

[Frank]

williamwaco:

I routinely shoot half inch groups at 50 yards with my Thompson Contender .357 mag and .75" with an occasional .4" 100 yard groups with my Winchester 1885 in .38-55 caliber.

My bullets are really HARD, around BNH 9.


The only absolute rule in this casting game is this:

"There are NO absolute rules in this game."


Great. :drinks:

[canyon-ghost]

WilliamWaco says:
My bullets are really HARD, around BNH 9.



Meaning that they are not much more than Wheelweights. For most things, wheelweight works. The only load you mention that would worry me would be the 44 magnum. The others don't quite run the velocity for a hardness to support their section density or diameter.

When you water quench from the mold, make sure it's far enough from the pot to be safe and wipe the bottom of the mold on an old towel each time. One drop of water will pop in that hot lead, turning to steam.
I water dropped some 7mm rifle bullets, the hardness was easy to see. I hit an air-cooled one with a sledge hammer. It bent in the middle, really bent. The water dropped bullet just blunted the nose, about 1/4" of its length. It's a BIG difference in hardness.

PS: yes, these guys know what they're talking about. A few amateur experiments like the sledge hammer, and you will too!

[Bret4207]

cbrick:


Now you see him, now you don't. I just wanted an answer to a simple question. Why do you not want to water drop? Is there a gain?

What gain is there to water dropping if it's not needed? Why add an extra step? Why use a tool you may not need, that may in fact throw a wrench into the gears? Bhn is a tool, no more no less, and since 99% of us have no clue what our alloys really are, our BHn readings are only giving us a tiny part of the story.

To be accurate, we don't need "hard" at all. Even at top pressures we don't need "hard". What we need is a proper confluence of fit, pressure/time, alloy and barrel condition. Simply referring to the need for "hard" obfuscates the real needs in the game. Any of our lead alloys are "harder" than a rubber o-ring, but that o-ring will hold pressures far higher for far longer than our boolits are subjected to in high pressure hydraulic cylinders or air cylinders.

It's just not as simple as "harder is better".

[Frank]

Bret4207:

It's just not as simple as "harder is better".
Who said that?

[Bret4207]

***ooptimax200:

What do you think a jacketed bullet is? A putty plug? Let's face it. You can get everybody to wave their arms up and down and scream, but the fact is if you want any accuracy out of any kind of a barrel, and I don't mean t shooting at a pie plate ten feet in front of you, you're going to need something on the outside of the bullet that is hard, period. If hard is so bad and so evil, then why don't we see the bullet manfacturers using a soft copper? It's because the bullet has to hold the rifling and maintain it's balance if it's going to be spinning thousands of rpm and doing it consistently down range.


Bret4207:

Who said that?

You did.

[mpbarry1]

I am curious about water dropping also. My questio is around how they change over time. If you load up a bunch for a zombie emergency, would they shrink over time? Get softer? How do they age?

[Frank]

mpbarry1:

I am curious about water dropping also. My questio is around how they change over time. If you load up a bunch for a zombie emergency, would they shrink over time? Get softer? How do they age?
I don't know how it could get any quicker. Cast them one day, size them the next. Try not to use too much tin. It's supposed to make them age soften.

[Tar Heel]

First, I have never cast bullets. I have the equipment which I purchased back in the 70's. I have 5 bars of Linotype about 4 ft. long. I do have access to used wheel weights. Can you tell me how to harden wheel weights. After casting do I size and then harden. Or when removing from the mold do I drop in water? Thanks, Hank

While you have been provided with some excellent advise in the preceding posts, it may do you some good to read this excellent publication regarding alloys, lube, heat treating methods and requirements etc.

This publication is one of the best I have read and should be a standard reference for bullet casters. Enjoy!

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

[williamwaco]

One absolute rule is 'The boolit must fit!" I don't shoot handguns much but I do shoot a lot of rifles and a lot of different calibers. I cast boolits for my rifles, not because I have to, but because I like to. Most of my rifle boolits are fairly soft cast of 55 to 60 % lead and 45 to 40 % wheel weights with 2% tin added. I do not water drop but allow boolits to age harden for 4 weeks. In 30 cal. rifles I can get 2400 fps with no leading. Have not tried for higher velocity because I don't need it.

Larry

:oops:

OOoopps. You ARE correct.



.