.38 S&w

[Aitch Dog]

I was referred from another forum with this post,specifically to Deputy Al.
S&W .38 (not special)

I recently purchased an Enfield .38-200 and desiring to shoot it, found the ammo to be both difficult to find and expensive when found.
I purchased some Starline brass(S&W.38), and then made several assumptions about components that don't seem to have held up very well: 1) Because the .38 S&W uses a larger diameter bullet, I decided to use some Hornady hollow base wad cutters, reasoning that they would expand to fill the bore and improve accuracy.
2) I also used a charge of W231 from the upper end of the scale- 2.5 grains, reasoning that this tiny charge couldn't get me into trouble no matter what, especially with a sub diameter bullet.
3) I can't really say why I sat the bullet out so far, except that the completed round would have been so short that I would be concerned about the effect of such a tiny powder space.
The completed round looks like this:

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/3491/dsc03070edited1it2.th.jpg (http://img375.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc03070edited1it2.jpg)

When I went to the range, I noted that the report of this load was "snappy", and that the pistol fired a "pattern" about 4 inches in diameter at 25 feet. Some CBC factory loads shot about 2 1/2 ", and some loads I made with the same powder charge and some unsized 140 gr lead flat nose rounds that mic'ed at .360" shot around 2".(This revolver is DAO)
I fired 24 rounds of the wadcutter load and then I noted a peculiarity concerning the ejected brass.
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/8712/dsc03077edited1lo5.th.jpg (http://img375.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc03077edited1lo5.jpg)

When I examined the rest of the brass, I found this in 6 more rounds:
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/7681/dsc03075edited1ng7.th.jpg (http://img375.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc03075edited1ng7.jpg)

There were, of course, flattened primers etc. The CBC brass was fine, and as near as I can tell, the other handload is fine(but I didn't keep the brass separated, so I'm not absolutely positive about that).
My analysis of the situation is that either the shape of the bullet caused a pressure spike at the forcing cone, or that by seating the bullet so far out, I reduced the free bore and caused the spike. I also should have started at 2.2 gr of W231 but I don't think that this was the major component of the pressure spike.
BTW,the revolver appears to be fine.
Regards, Aitch Dog
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[9.3X62AL]

Aitch Dog--

Welcome to the forum, and I hope we can help!

That brass and its case separations CONCERN me. Have you measured the cylinder charge holes to see whether they are within "spec" for 38 S&W? Your brass in the photos resemble some brass I've seen processed in 38 Special dies--then fired in a 38 S&W cylinder.

Your powder charge might be a little heavy for the HBWC's. Even with the bullets seated out as you did, there still could have been a smaller powder space than that provided in a 38 Special flush-seated wadcutter load--overall length being 1.16" or so. Pure speculation here......the skirts from the HBWC will expand out to engage the throat sidewalls and barrel, perhaps a little too well at times. 38 Special shooters run their HBWCs around 750-775 FPS to avoid pressures that will over-flare the skirts--a condition that can distend the skirt as it clears the muzzle, or leave a portion of the skirt stuck mid-bore. When I ran the Hornady HBWC's in my Webley-Enfield, I seated them out to 1.16", and they were near the end of the cylinder face.

Referring to my original source for powder charges--the Speer Reloading Manual--its powder charge scale for the 38 S&W bears close resemblance to your given powder weights. The difference I see is that a SOLID wadcutter is given as the projectile used in the recipe, not the HBWC. The HBWC introduces a large variable in the equation that we can only speculate about--flaring bullet skirt effects. My route with the HBWC's was to use STARTING 38 Special data--both Hornady and Speer--and the overall length of the 38 Special loads. The performance was docile, and accuracy was not spectacular--about 7"-8" at 25 yards, IIRC. I soon moved on to fatter boolits of heavier weight ("Beagled" Lyman #358430/195 grains).

NEI Handtools offers a mold design that is a duplicate of the British service bullet design, a round-nosed/long-nosed pattern--#169A. Much of its nose sits outside the case, with a relatively short drive band/grease groove section that seats into the case. Go to www.neihandtools.com for a look at that critter. Some samples sent my way by a member here did VERY well in my Webley and S&W M&P--I plan to get one of these molds soon.

Opinion/conclusion--the brass from the better-behaved loads was NOT distended or separated, if I read your text correctly. Some condition or combination of same with the hollow-based wadcutter loads--short overall length, high powder weight, or (least possible) wide diameter of cylinder charge holes relative to cartridge diameter--contributed to the conditions seen in your photos. The flattened primers are a LARGE red flag, although long headspace can contribute to that condition to some extent. I'm assuming here that the better-behaved loads did not show primer flattening. FWIW, I have yet to see brass from my 38 S&W revolvers show either flattened primers or distended case walls/separations.

The last time I considered myself "omniscient" was at about age 13, so I'm hoping others with 38 S&W experience chime in here with input and commentary.

[45 2.1]

Go here, look at #169A. It was designed by a board member (oksmle) for the 38-200 and is an excellent boolit for them.

http://www.neihandtools.com/catpages/mold_pg7.htm

Your HB wadcutter looks to be seated too deeply and to snappy of load causing the seperations IMHO.

[broomhandle]

Hi AD,

I thought the guys here would be able to help you out. :-D

Deputy Al and a few other guys here have made my reloading life much easier in the past.:drinks: I hate to reinvent the wheel ,when the guys here have air cars!

I had a thought, is a possibility your chambers have been bored out to use 38Special cases?
I know it was done in the 1950s by surplus dealers to sell the guns off. Check and see if a regular 38 case will fit.

Be well,
broomhandle

[3sixbits]

It sure looks like a head space problem. The separation is at the junction of the web, and wall. I recommend cerrosafe the chambers to make sure some one hasen't been playing cute with a reamer. It does look like a head space issue however. In the first photo in the back ground is a ctg case with a slightly backed out primer a good sign of headspace problems.

[Aitch Dog]

Thank you gentlemen, I will attempt to measure those cylinders. My brother has a ball gauge that is probaably just the ticket for this if I don't get good measurements with my $19 calipers. As Deputy Al points out, the better behaved loads-the CBC factory and the unsized 140 grain LFN don't have the same case problems.
Good eye there 3sixbits. I wish I had noticed that at the time. I also wish I had kept better track of the brass.
Thank you also broomhandle
Regards Aitch Dog(aka DocAitch and others)

[Buckshot]

..............I doubt that your problems are due to having had a 38 Special reamer run into the chambers. I have an early blued Victory model in 38 S&W, below:

http://www.fototime.com/20E262CE102F9D8/standard.jpg

Please forgive the Hubley cap pistol grips. My dad bought this from a Calif Highway Patrolman in 1964. It has been 'worked' on. It has had it's barrel bobbed to 4", and it has been reamed with a 38 Special reamer. It shoots 38 S&W very well.

A 38 Special reamer wouldn't touch the chamber area at all, except up front to lower the existing casemouth step, and then to cut a short ramp. The Special reamer cannot change anything to make it 'tighter'. In fact it should lower pressures. I think what is happening is that due to the decreased case volumn your pressures are too high. The hammer strikes the primer forcing the case rim tightly against the cylinder, the high pressure is holding the casewalls tightly against the chamber walls and the casehead is moving backwards to the frame.

http://www.fototime.com/48343BFA434AB36/standard.jpg

This target had been shot with the above pistol and the charge shown is a 38 Special load. It was loaded in Starline 38 S&W brass, with the Lyman 35863 WC, which I'd swaged a HB into, and then loaded with an OAL of 1.15". In a 38 Special the casemouth is crimped over the top of the WC. In the 38 S&W about half the boolit is outside the case. However, the internal volumn is the same as a 38 Special, so I expected 38 Special pressures.

In the strong British 38-200's you can load to 38 Special pressures, like in the M&P's or Victory models, but you cannot use 38 Special load data UNLESS your OAL can provide the same case volumn. The fast energetic powders coupled with small case volumns can boost pressues quickly with just 1/10th grain more powder, or by a decreased case volumn.

Flattened primers can be caused by other things besides high pressure. However the head seperation in conjuntion with the flat primers leads me to my reasoning mentioned above.

...................Buckshot

[versifier]

FWIW, I have only seen head separations and primer signs like that in revolver cases when overloading (using the charge tables for RN or SWC boolits at normal OALs when loading/firing the wadcutters seated flush). I had a cylinderfull of .38spec cases do that firing in a S&W m27, a very strong action, and the brass was the weakest part, so that's where it gave. I hit the ejector and got six cases about 3/8" tall in my hand, then spent the rest of the morning figuring out how to get the tops out of the cylinder. [smilie=1: I had plenty of time to think about the cause when working on the cylinder and realized that I had likely tripled the pressure and almost ruined a really nice revolver. The reloading goddess was looking out for me that day, I guess. Thirty years later, I am still paranoid about loading "ashcans", and I now seat them out as far as possible with minimum charges of BEYE behind them. If it were me, I would stick to RN boolits with those short cases.