? for you smiths

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Can this be fixed reasonably?
This revolver belonged to my grand dad that I had never met, as he passed on when my dad was just 17. This was his trapping dispatcher arm.
US revolver, 22 LR
I'd like to make it shoot-able if possible
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/James64/P1099607.jpg

Here is the problem, the teeth the cylinder pawl engages are worn down to where it will not rotate the cylinder, and also allows to cylinder to move when it should be locked up.
Repairable, or am I gonna have luck into a used cylinder, or just hang it on the wall to look at? It will fire if you hand align everything and hold it, but,

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/James64/P1099608.jpg

[Bill*]

Looking at that picture, I'm wondering how much the pawl itself is worn? Those teeth,while not pretty, seem to have enough meat on them to operate

[seagiant]

Hi,
Most often the cheapest way to fix a pistol is to send it back to the maker! I know that Ruger and Smith andWesson have EXCELLENT service!!!

[rbertalotto]

Yes, that can be fixed. The teeth can be TIG welded to build them up and then recut.

I'm sure the pawl is in just as bad condition. A new one can be made. If it isn't locking up the cylinder stop might need attention.

All it takes is time and a bunch of money.

If it was mine, I'd build a nice wooded case with a glass cover and include a picture of two of grand-dad on the trap line and hang it in a place of honor.

Trying to make it into a shooter might just not be worth it....But then again, it's your dime!

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Roy, I made the mistake of clicking the link to your website.
I did NOT need to see the photos of the cap & ball revolvers. I've been lusting after one of those.
I seen your CZ527 conversion as well. I did the same to mine :)

I should have looked more closely at the US revolver before posting.
My dad told me it was worn out so I never really studied it before.
It actually does lock up tight. It has play in the pawl, ratchet mechanism until you take
the slack out of the trigger. Then the pawl and cylinder stop tighten up and align the cylinder.
It does need a new spring (missing) on the base pin retainer though. Easy enough

[Skipper]

If you need parts, try looking under the Iver Johnson brand. I believe they made the revolver.

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Models.aspx?catid=265

[John Taylor]

I did this repair on an 1849 Colt many years back, worked good. Just solder the part in and if the timing is off a bit it can be heated and turned to correct.http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l132/johnptaylor/Colt1849cylinderrepair.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l132/johnptaylor/Colt1849cylinderrepair1.jpg

[EMC45]

What shape is the hand in?..........

[Bren R.]

What shape is the hand in?..........
Flat on the front and back... five pointy, fingery shapes sticking out the front. [smilie=s:

Couldn't resist.

Bren R.

[scrapcan]

First i am not a smith, and don't play one on tv. But I was thinking the same lines as EMC45 has posted, he should be able to try to stretch the hand a bit and re fit-re time. But first I would check the hand spring to see if it is missing or broke, that may be all you need. Look at the section in gunsmithing pistols and revolver book. It goes over doing this with S&W revolver, but you can use the process here also. You should be able to stretch the hand slightly by cold working the hand. Then follwo the process for setting the timing

Take measurements first in case you have to make another one.

[MBTcustom]

I agree, those teeth dont look bad to me. I have had to do repairs on revolvers before and the problem was in the hand more often than not. There are tricks you can do to get the metal where it needs to be such as peening the driving edge of the hand to make it longer. A broken hand spring is a good way to make a revolver quit working. I would pull the gun apart and look for broken pieces of spring. If the spring has been broken, you can solder on a new one with low heat solder or you can use a jewelers saw to re-cut the retaining slit and install a new spring. You can make the spring yourself out of any high tensile strength carbon steel. (I have used reciprocating saw blades before)
If you can fix it by dinking with the hand, its a lot cheaper than having the cylinder tig welded and re-cut.Sometimes it is possible to overcome ratchet wear by customizing the hand engagement. You may be closer than you think.

[EMC45]

I still think it is a hand issue....The pawl looks good as do the cylinder stop notches. I would do a detailed dissasembly and cleaning and go from there. I believe you could gently massage the end of the hand carefully to get it to engage better. That is if the spring isn't broken. If the spring is broken you can fix that too.

[andremajic]

I did this repair on an 1849 Colt many years back, worked good. Just solder the part in and if the timing is off a bit it can be heated and turned to correct.


John, Did you make the insert of was it available to buy?

Thanks!

[Harter66]

My Dad has a 1917 Colt that behaved as you've described. After I monkyed w/it for several hours ,in my early days of dabbling, I decided it must be inside. Sure enough ,that lod war horse was full of powder,lead dust ,dirt,old grease that was oil at some point .......I think. Long/short I had a 2 gallon bucket w/1 gallon of. Government CLP solvent,lube protectant. I left the grips off and the pistol in the bucketand let it soak . Nex morning I cycled it a bunch still in the bucket still imersed . Turned it over and repeated . The 4th time I think ,it stopped making clouds in the solvent. Then I discovered how dirty it had really been the bbl extention into the frame had a just exposed thread and a gap between it and the top strap I threw those chunks in the lead pot. I washed it out w/carb cleaner,lubed gently. Turned out it was every bit the shooter i'd always heard it was .

It was a hard lesson that needed to be refreshed "CLEAN IT 1st !" Then see if there's somthing that really needs to be fixed. Big letters for my benefit.

[John Taylor]

John, Did you make the insert of was it available to buy?

Thanks!

I made the insert. This was an original 1849 Colt and I didn't want to try welding it.

[uscra112]

OK, you got my attention. I happen to be more familiar with that Iver Johnson action than I would ever have expected to be - just got done "tuning up" a model 55a, which is the same gun with a longer barrel and a fluted cylinder. A very old design, but quite serviceable for the price. I now carry mine loaded with snake-shot when I'm in the woods.

First of all, you may be able to buy a new hand from Numrich. They still have a pretty complete list of I.J. parts. (Ooops! I looked - they're sold out.)

Second, it's much more likely that the hand spring is what's at fault, not the hand itself. That's Numrich part #848810 (Yeah, they call it the "lever spring", but that's the right part.) That IS in stock, and cheap. http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Products.aspx?catid=3854

Third, when you come to take it apart, before you do anything else, buy a piece of 3/32'" music wire, or maybe three 3/32" drills. Make three pins about 1.5" long, ground to taper almost to a point over about half an inch. You will need these when it comes to getting the thing back together. - - - I dare you to ask me how I know! :mrgreen:

Finally, make up new pins from that music wire - the OEM pins are soft as a grape, and not worth putting back in.

Reassembly sequence is: Front pin, then rear pin, then slide the sear into place and feed one of your slave pins in to capture it.

Do not lose the tiny little coil spring in the sear. Hold it in with grease to prevent it getting away.

[gunshot98]

I think it can be fixed to. I agree, the hand may be the problem. Clean it first then you can check the parts while they are out.Numrich is a great place to look .

[Tokarev]

Looking at those teeth, I am thinking they are not too bad. 2nding the idea to look at the pawl.

As to repair, John Taylor beat me to it :)

[KCSO]

Yes and no. The gun can be repaired, I have done a couple that bad, but if you have to pay a gunsmith to do the job you can buy a parts gun a lot cheaper. I occasionaly pick up parts guns like that for $40-50 and your reapir will cost twice that. BUT if just the hand is worn you might post a picture of it as I have a drawer full.

[MtGun44]

I think a new or welded and refitted hand may fix it.

Bill

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

OK, the hand spring is there an intact, the gun is FILTHY inside :D
I think there is some missing parts though, but I cant seem to find cartoon of this thing anywhere. I know the cylinder base pin latch spring is AWOL
Anyone have a cartoon to share? The hand /hammer and related related parts discombobulated themselves on disassemble, not sure how that goes together either :shock:
Jim

[uscra112]

Just being filthy would do it. The hand spring isn't very strong, and could easily be bound up with grunge.

I think there was a cartoon on the Numrich site. If not, P/M me and I'll tear mine down and make some photos for you.

Unlikely there's anything missing - there's just not many parts in there to go missing.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Numrich doesn't list the US revolver, & I dont know what the model number is for the Iver Johnson version.
The only thing that I think is missing is the spring for the cylinder pin retainer. I think it may be a flat spring shaped like a "V"

The assembly of the hand,hand spring and related is what has me cornfuzzed at the moment.
It came apart faster than my eyes could catch up! :)

OH, you where dead right about the pins, like noodles!

[uscra112]

See if these help make sense of it. The little spring is positioned to spread the two arms apart. Long leg is on the hand, short leg is on the double-action bar.

And I was wrong about assembly sequence. After the hammer and spring are in, it is trigger/hand assembly first, then front pin, then rear pin (rear pin after positioning the sear). The mind is the second thing to go, and I can't remember the first. :-(

Inserting the trigger assembly needs a toothpick or a tiny screwdriver to push the double action bar forward so its' hook slips past the corresponding feature on the hammer.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Thank you,
that one's a little different than mine, but I think it tells me enough

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Got it back together today.
The cylinder latch spring is missing, and the hand spring had one end broken off. The "elbow" that hooked in the hand hole was gone, I was able to flip it around and bend a new elbow on the end and it seems to work fine. I believe the end of the hand is worn too, as the cylinder is still loose until you take up the slack in the trigger then it is tight. So the cylinder does time and lock up after a slight pull on the trigger.
Thanks for the help!

[uscra112]

Good show, Jim. That being a family heirloom, it's gotta be very satisfying!

The cylinder will be loose until the trigger is almost completely taken up. As in the single-action cocked position. The bolt that aligns the cylinder is part of the trigger. Not like a Colt, or even a Smith & Wesson. They kept the parts count really low, did Iver Johnson.

I assume you mean the base-pin latch? Not essential as long as the base pin doesn't actually fall out. Although it's a good plan to have the base pin well secured so it doesn't spin with the cylinder. The I.J. Model 55a that I have doesn't do that, so the hole in the frame has worn a little, and that affects the alignment of the cylinder to the barrel.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Yes the base pin latch spring, looks like a "V".
Yeah, the base pin will move out under recoil. I have a few places to look for the spring.
I tried making one out of various pieces of springs I had around, got one to stay in and kind of, work but it isn't strong enough.

This turns out to be the US Revolver version of the Iver Johnson Model 1900.
A friend had the firearms assembly book from the NRA that had it in there :)

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Yeah, made new pins to replace the rubber ones they used :D,
and a slave pin to put the trigger guard/sear assembly together was real handy

[scrapcan]

Jim,

you did good, keep working on it and it will be 10 times better than the brand new taurus 94.