41 Mag issues

[MikeyPooh]

Hi guys, I hope I'm posting this to the right section.

So, I finished up my craigslist deal for some 41 magnum components. I have a few questions that I need experienced help with though!

1) I have no photos of this, but I got 250+ pieces of brass, and most of it had flattened primers. Now, if he was running pressures high enough to do that, should I be concerned about using this brass moving forward? Maybe relinquish it to medium loads only? Or just proceed as normal with a bit extra caution?

2) I picked the worst one to illustrate my question here. A bunch of loaded ammo has primers that look like this:

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/3328/img5969r.jpg

Is this caused by excessive force seating the primer? Are there any issues firing this as is? (once I pull it all down first, of course. I am not impressed with this guys quality control, heh)

3) Again, this is the worst of the bunch for protruding primers:

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/2483/img5970l.jpg


I know this needs deeper seating, and I tried a few already and I haven't been able to get them slightly recessed like they should be. Now, I've never reloaded before, I don't know how much force I should be using, or if there is some other issue causing it to not seat right.... so, if I muscle it, am I going to pop the primer and give myself a heartattack, or in a worst case scenario will they just end up looking like the first pic?

4) I got 2 dozen pieces of primed brass that look like this:

http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/3738/img5968h.jpg



http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/6792/img5966mp.jpg


That looks like WAY too much expander die action to me. About 12 thousandths over nominal diameter. Any issues with using it?

And lastly. The loaded ammo (which will all be pulled) has a mix of primer manufacturers and magnum/standard primers. I am thinking of going with a lightish load of 2400 (only powder I have atm) of 15-16 grains with 210gr bullets. Does that sound safe, considering that I would have ignition from random primers? Or, should I pull it all down and pop off the primers and start totally from scratch?

Sorry for the huge post, and I thank you for reading it and any input provided.

[Larry Gibson]

Pull everything and discard everything except the cases and bullets. Whoever did all that didn't know what they were doing. The funny looking primer is one seated with the small primer seating punch in the large cup. Get a good reloading manual (Lyman's would probably be best since you want to load cast) and read the front part, particularly on loading cartridges. Study it as it will give you the basics to reload. Then proceed slowly and don't hesitate to ask specific questions. Good pictures BTW, they make understanding what you're talking about much easier.

Larry Gibson

[GARCIA]

+1 on what Larry stated.
Tear it all down and start fresh.
That would be the safest thing to do.

When in doubt ask!

Tom

[MikeyPooh]

Sigh. I was afraid you'd say that. Got close to 600 to do. Was hoping to at least make plinking loads with the random primers.

Oh, yeah... I pulled down about 30 of them, and busted my bullet puller lol. Is there a brand known for being tougher than the rest?

Yes, I've got the Lyman 49th and a newer Hornady book... and like Tom said I wanted to ask the pros, I don't recall my specific issues being addressed, so here I am.


Thanks guys

[canyon-ghost]

That guy should have been using a Ram Prime unit. I have one that is adjusted to seat primers .004" below the case head. Large primer, small primer, any caliber, they all go .004" below the head. It's a good piece of reloading equipment to own.

Okay, I'm going to show a picture, try not to get upset if it isn't a Lee, okay? http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx228/3rdshooter/RCBSRamPrime.jpg

The large bell in the brass wouldn't worry me, the seating die can straighten that out. Those primers, I don't like that. I use a lot of caution with my 41 magnum Blackhawk, only Large pistol primers and 2400. I usually load five cases and then seat & crimp.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx228/3rdshooter/seatingbulletsfor41RemMagnum.jpg

[canyon-ghost]

As you can see, I load from the powder measure into the scale pan, then trickle the last bit ( for the sake of consistent ammunition). I want every charge to be exactly like the one before it, and the one after it. Works better that way.

Ron

[Blammer]

the brass is just over flared, no issues with using it. just run it through the seating die, that'll take it out.

[MikeyPooh]

Thanks for sharing the pics Ron. I'm assuming the ram prime works like so: once you get it dialed in you just do a full stroke on the ram to eliminate the "feel" aspect to primer seating? That sounds good, but I already have an older RCBS bench primer, and I would like to work with that. It'll probably work better when I'm not messing around with some other guys (poor) work, lol.

[milsurp mike]

The easiest way to pull pistol ammo is to Run the loaded ammo through the 41 mag sizing die.It will mash the bullets and they will fall out.Melt down the bullets and recast.Mike

[MikeyPooh]

Hmmm interesting technique, never heard that one before. Unfortunately all the ones loaded up are jacketed.

[429421Cowboy]

...Just a brain storm, could primers that are too tall to seat correctly in a LPP pocket actually be large rifle primers?

[canyon-ghost]

MikeyPooh, yes, the Ram Prime you just set with the threads and lock-ring. If you set the depth once, it's done. All that is set to when the press ram reaches the top of the stoke. No feel involved, just the cam-over effect.

I've heard of unsizing cartridges but, I would think you'd be better off dumping all the bad reloads. I'd rather get a bullet mold, new batch of brass and my powder than someone's old messed up jacketed rounds. Heck, I'd cut the stuff in half with my tubing cutter (copper tubing cutter) and throw them in the trash. Maybe slowly, but I'd dispose of them and build new.

Worst expense will be brass, more than likely. I'm blessed with a local reloading shop that sells Winchester but, I order Starline by the 500 too.

One more little thought: bullet puller, vice grips you can clip on the bullet and pull down with the press? You just don't install a die, run the bullet up on the ram and clip the vice-grips on the bullet, pull down. It would work with jacketed better than crimped lead.

Takes some oil and cleaning to get lead out of the press threads.

[canyon-ghost]

These odd reloads and I think two things: bullets moving out of the case and high primers. The protruding primer that you show is dangerous, could cause an accidental discharge (goes off when you don't want it to).

It's entirely possible to not crimp a bullet tightly enough in a 41 magnum and have it move in the case. Don't sound like much does it? I cleaned the Blackhawk one day and oiled it afterwards. I managed to get some oil or solvent on the cases with almost no crimp. That loosens the bullets. I was by myself on the range but, I was surprised when the gun stopped. It caused them to move forward, out the chamber until the bullet nose stopped the cylinder from rotating. It jammed.

Now, there I am, on the range. Pushing the bullets back in the cartridge with my thumb, the whole time questioning the safety and sanity of the whole thing. I mean, the bullets were still in the cylinder and I was pressing my thumb over a magnum charge and primer. It didn't hurt anything, they fired, bullet went downrange, but... gee, was I glad when that cylinder full was gone! It ended my shooting for the day, too many creepy feeling experiences.

I adjusted the crimp tighter, gave up light crimps.

[myfriendis410]

If you do decide to disassemble the ammo you have, you might also budget the time to anneal the cases. Over-flaring and then seating/crimping will work harden the brass and you may get numerous split cases. I have brass that I bought new with my Smith back in 1986 that has been loaded literally dozens of times, hot and mild, and it's still just fine.

15 to 16 grains of 2400 in a 210 gr. bullet is just fine in a .41 mag loading.

I also wondered if the primer shown might have been a large rifle primer. Definitely take 'em down and start over.

[r1kk1]

It looks like something was in the primer pocket. Kinda like debris and primer was seated on there with some force. Can't believe a tool, especially hand held would do this kind of damage. Not talking about the shallow seated primer. It definitely left the impression of the priming rod on the primer cup.

I've never seen such primer cup deformation before. Good pics.

r1kk1

[Cherokee]

Pull everything down and start from scratch.

[giz189]

MikeyPooh, I have been reloading 41 magnum for about 35 yrs and this is some things I have had happen to me. Not to discredit anything anyone has said, however, I annealed some 41 brass once, took several reloadings after that to get it back hard enough to eject empties after firing without having to use a piece of wood on extractor to get empties out,(2) You might have to run the overflared empties into your sizing die just a bit, I did that once, and mine would not start in the seating die, (3) I cant stand to throw anything away if it can be reused, such as j-bullets he has loaded, if you don't want to buy another puller, drill a hole in a piece of hardwood board so the rim will still catch on it and hit the other end on something hard, cheap inertial bullet puller. (4) also, had primers back out of primer pocket when seating boolit, don't know why, but they would bind on recoil shield, not a good thing, finally I uniformed all primer pockets and that problem went away. Did not have to do this on Starline brass, hence, that is all I use now. Just some of my problems, YMMV. Good Luck.

[429421Cowboy]

A Lee pimer pocket cleener that does large and small pockets costs $2.99 here and works great. Gotta love Lee sometimes:D I'm not a Lee fanatic like some are, but if it works it works, and that which works the same at 1/3rd the price actually works better of you ask me! I'm still loading .44 brass that i learned to load on a few years ago and it suffered from some SERIOUS over flaring till i got my dies set and everything happy, never anneled it and have yet to lose a case to splitting. I'm just too certain my results would look like qiz's to worry about it. Some people have a tendancy to make problems where there are none, i'd at least try everthing first before you decided to do the work to anneal them. Good luck, better safe than sorry, your doing the right thing!

[MattOrgan]

Get a colet style puller. You can pull 500 or 600 rounds quickly and quietly. Dump the powder, do not reuse, you have no real knweledge of what it is. You can spread it for furtilizer in your yard. Resize all of you cases. WEAR SAFETY GLASSES it is not unknown to have primers to detonate when you decap live ones. Put the old ones in a small contaier of oil to neutralize te priming compound, loose bulk primers are dangerous! This will remove the flair and get everything into spec. Re-prime with what ever tool you have now. Regardless of the priming system you should feel the primer seat. Primers and primer pockets vary in height/depth and diameter. Feel them bottom so you do not crush the priming pellet. They shou be seated flush or just deeper than the pocket.

Expand your cases just enough to beable to start a bullet. Charge your cases, seat your pulled bullets, then crimp in a separate step. Shoot and enjoy. I don't want to start any unpleasant dialog, but don't waste your time annealing pistol brass it will be so soft that you can't get a decent crimp.

Now that you've read this go buy a reloading manual if you dot have one. The Lyman reloading manual is excellent.

[swheeler]

Get a colet style puller. You can pull 500 or 600 rounds quickly and quietly. Dump the powder, do not reuse, you have no real knweledge of what it is. You can spread it for furtilizer in your yard. Resize all of you cases. WEAR SAFETY GLASSES it is not unknown to have primers to detonate when you decap live ones. Put the old ones in a small contaier of oil to neutralize te priming compound, loose bulk primers are dangerous! This will remove the flair and get everything into spec. Re-prime with what ever tool you have now. Regardless of the priming system you should feel the primer seat. Primers and primer pockets vary in height/depth and diameter. Feel them bottom so you do not crush the priming pellet. They shou be seated flush or just deeper than the pocket.

Expand your cases just enough to beable to start a bullet. Charge your cases, seat your pulled bullets, then crimp in a separate step. Shoot and enjoy. I don't want to start any unpleasant dialog, but don't waste your time annealing pistol brass it will be so soft that you can't get a decent crimp.

Now that you've read this go buy a reloading manual if you dot have one. The Lyman reloading manual is excellent.

+1 and add clean(primer pockets too) and inspect the brass. You can see from this guys reloads he was not very careful or thorough, a bad combination when making ammo.

[r1kk1]

The instructions that come with dies are guidelines. Only screw down the die enough to get the job done, i.e., enough flare to seat bullet without peeling lead, etc. I had a problem with an older Dillon crimp die in 45 LC. It would not crimp enough and with heavy bullets, it would blow past the crimp and tie up the cylinder. They sent me a new one and it works great. I also use enough crimp (if any, depends on load) to get the job done. I have a collection of Redding profile crimp dies that work extremely well and CH4D taper crimps work well also. They handle most of my big bore duties and both work well in heavy for caliber magnum loads.

I've annealed pistol brass and use two different tempilaq heat ranges. I put a 450 degree swipe on the web of the case and a 750 degree on the case mouth. Never had a problem with over annealing. Works great to making short wildcats necked down or up.

take care,

r1kk1

[DCM]

Pull everything and discard everything except the cases and bullets. Whoever did all that didn't know what they were doing. The funny looking primer is one seated with the small primer seating punch in the large cup. Get a good reloading manual (Lyman's would probably be best since you want to load cast) and read the front part, particularly on loading cartridges. Study it as it will give you the basics to reload. Then proceed slowly and don't hesitate to ask specific questions. Good pictures BTW, they make understanding what you're talking about much easier.

Larry Gibson

BIG plus 2,3,4 or whatever we are at!!!