411-JDJ With Accurate Mold 340gr Bullets

[Tar Heel]

After purchasing two molds from Tom at Accurate Molds for the 411-JDJ, I have begun load development for that bullet. I cast off the 41-340J (gas check bullet) and some 41-340K (PB) bullets. Decided to start this load development using RL-7 since its position on the relative burn rate chart is favorable and I also have some experience with this propellant. It also gives good case volume characteristics. If I survive this adventure, I'll post the velocity and SD data. This should be fun - or NOT.

[white eagle]

that looks like a very interesting round
is that based off of the 45-70 case ??
best of luck

[Tar Heel]

that looks like a very interesting round
is that based off of the 45-70 case ??
best of luck

It is a JD Jones (SSK Industries) wildcat cartridge using the 444 Marlin as a parent case. The more popular cartridge, and one I'm sure you have heard of, is the 375-JDJ. SSK is here if you want to peruse: http://sskindustries.com/

This cartridge, the 411-JDJ, can be quite a handful when fully stoked. Whereas the 375-JDJ has rather "brisk" recoil, this cartridge can have rather "punishing" recoil.

[GLynn41]

you go --love .41's i will enjoy your posts
I have a 41/.445 TC even breaked it is"brisk" but not like yours of course-- 255 cast @ 2200 or so--
I have Redhawk in the .41/454-it is fun--255 cast gc @1650+ in 5.5" barrell
I have a pb mold thatJD had NEI make for the .41 and the .411 JDJ-- runs about 295 gr-- but have not used them in other than the .41 mag on deer

[Tar Heel]

you go --love .41's i will enjoy your posts
I have a 41/.445 TC even breaked it is"brisk" but not like yours of course-- 255 cast @ 2200 or so--
I have Redhawk in the .41/454-it is fun--255 cast gc @1650+ in 5.5" barrell
I have a pb mold thatJD had NEI make for the .41 and the .411 JDJ-- runs about 295 gr-- but have not used them in other than the .41 mag on deer

Glynn..that 41 SSK mold is great in the 41 Magnum and it really rocks in the 411-JDJ. I took 3 White Tail with that bullet in the 411-JDJ. That 295 (heat treated) really shines in the 411 and has reach too. At the high end of the loads it delivers substantial recoil in the 14" ported barrels. You know what I mean.

I am almost dreading these 340's near the high end. I'll have to pace these out so as not to hurt myself and more importantly...induce flinching. Keep an eye on the post and I'll update it with the results. IT will be about a week until I get to the range so hang tough.

[Tar Heel]

you go --love .41's i will enjoy your posts
I have a 41/.445 TC even breaked it is"brisk" but not like yours of course-- 255 cast @ 2200 or so--
I have Redhawk in the .41/454-it is fun--255 cast gc @1650+ in 5.5" barrell
I have a pb mold thatJD had NEI make for the .41 and the .411 JDJ-- runs about 295 gr-- but have not used them in other than the .41 mag on deer

I forgot to mention that I really enjoy shooting the 41 Mag in the T/C too. I used to load up the Sierra #8500 170gr hollow points for hunting groundhogs when I lived in Virginia. Those over 24 grains of H110 out of that TC barrel would wake you up! The groundhogs didn't like it either.

I've never shot a .445 Super Mag but from the data you listed and a quick look online, I'll leave you to it. Does sound like fun....

[Rafe Covington]

I forgot to mention that I really enjoy shooting the 41 Mag in the T/C too. I used to load up the Sierra #8500 170gr hollow points for hunting groundhogs when I lived in Virginia. Those over 24 grains of H110 out of that TC barrel would wake you up! The groundhogs didn't like it either.

I've never shot a .445 Super Mag but from the data you listed and a quick look online, I'll leave you to it. Does sound like fun....

I have been shooting a 15 in encore in 41 mag for years, the 170 gr works great on groundhogs like Tar Hill said. I also have great luck with the 210 Sierra, just as accurate as the 170 just carries its velocity better the 170. On good days 200 yds with scope and a good rest a groundhog is in trouble. JMHO

Rafe:drinks:

[Tar Heel]

I have been shooting a 15 in encore in 41 mag for years, the 170 gr works great on groundhogs like Tar Hill said. I also have great luck with the 210 Sierra, just as accurate as the 170 just carries its velocity better the 170. On good days 200 yds with scope and a good rest a groundhog is in trouble. JMHO

Rafe:drinks:

Rafe....you shoot smoke poles too??

[GLynn41]

like the pic -- the 2nd deer I took with a handgun was a 6"DWAVH -using a 2x Tasco scope --load was 295 gr SSK over 18 gr 296 per JD himself-- shot very well and hits hard -- and a deer will not stop them-- as I have gotten older I have come back to more normal .41 weights - 255 for boar etc-- 215 gc pentapoints or devastor hp or 220-230 Keith
I have a 9" custom TC from Gary REEDEr- 41/44 215 cast well go in 1850+ range
and in the 41/454 revolver 5.5" will go 1720 or so-- works well on coyotes and deer

[Geraldo]

It is a JD Jones (SSK Industries) wildcat cartridge using the 444 Marlin as a parent case. The more popular cartridge, and one I'm sure you have heard of, is the 375-JDJ. SSK is here if you want to peruse: http://sskindustries.com/

This cartridge, the 411-JDJ, can be quite a handful when fully stoked. Whereas the 375-JDJ has rather "brisk" recoil, this cartridge can have rather "punishing" recoil.

I currently shoot a 7mm-08 Encore pistol and it doesn't bother me much, so I'm not exactly a recoil wimp, but from what I remember of my .375JDJ, I would say "brisk" is an understatement. When I had it, I did not hunger for the extra power a .411 gives. Can't wait to see your data.

[Rafe Covington]

Rafe....you shoot smoke poles too??

Yes I do Tar Hill, have 2 muskets and 2 revolvers.

Rafe

[Tar Heel]

I currently shoot a 7mm-08 Encore pistol and it doesn't bother me much, so I'm not exactly a recoil wimp, but from what I remember of my .375JDJ, I would say "brisk" is an understatement. When I had it, I did not hunger for the extra power a .411 gives. Can't wait to see your data.

I just could not find a word better at that moment. Brisk is certainly an understatement and as you are well aware, the recoil in a full power 375-JDJ load is really like a slap in the hand...very sharp, very intense, lots of whip, and leaves your hand stinging a little.

The 411-JDJ, believe it or not, is even more intense but not as "brisk" as the 375. It breaks the wrist harder (torque) and throws the gun harder. Hard recoil is something I have gotten used to over the years but I will admit to the world that I simply can't shoot too many of these rounds at one setting. I may have to spread out the shooting sessions with this load development to save my nervous system and wrist bones.

Yup....brisk is an understatement.
:smile:

[Tar Heel]

Yes I do Tar Hill, have 2 muskets and 2 revolvers.

Rafe

Love mine. Ran with the Opequeon Longrifles years ago in Loudoun County Virginia. Did F&I while most did MM or CW reenactment. Have a 50 Isaac Haines Flintlock, a 54 Hawken, a 50 T/C Hawken I gave to my nephew, a 36 TC Seneca and a Ruger Old Army. I sure miss the rendezvous.

[Groo]

Groo here
What porting do you have???
I have a 10 in 411jdj with a Super Arester break ..
The gun shoots easy one handed..
Ps.. you may find that the 340gr is too heavy unless you have an oncore...
The 340 gr was for the 444jdj or 444 marlin.
295 will probably provide the best Fps for weight therefore most penetration.

[Tar Heel]

Groo here
What porting do you have???
I have a 10 in 411jdj with a Super Arester break ..
The gun shoots easy one handed..
Ps.. you may find that the 340gr is too heavy unless you have an oncore...
The 340 gr was for the 444jdj or 444 marlin.
295 will probably provide the best Fps for weight therefore most penetration.

It has the standard SSK porting; a total of four ports, two forward at 10 and 2 O'clock, and two aft of those at 3 and 9 O'clock. My main concern is actually not recoil but that the rate of twist may not be sufficient for a bullet this heavy (large). JD Jones set these up for bullets of between 200 and 300 grains; the most popular available at the time of origination. The SSK (NEI) 295gr cast bullet shoots extremely well in my barrel with outstanding accuracy. I am hoping another 40 grains won't upset the apple cart.

I grant that I may be attempting to reinvent the wheel, but heck, it's winter, I am bored with standard loads, I need some adventure and I really wanted to see if a heavier bullet would be worthwhile in the 411. I guess I could have bought some 400gr solids but I saw Tom's molds here on the site. I kind of figured I would put a meal on a small business owners dinner table once in a while so I bought the two molds from Tom at Accurate Molds. Besides....he took the time to chat with me about this on email.

[Tar Heel]

Groo here
What porting do you have???
I have a 10 in 411jdj with a Super Arester break ..
The gun shoots easy one handed..
Ps.. you may find that the 340gr is too heavy unless you have an oncore...
The 340 gr was for the 444jdj or 444 marlin.
295 will probably provide the best Fps for weight therefore most penetration.

I forgot to mention in the previous post that this barrel is hell on the chrony. I have to keep resetting the darn thing after the muzzle blast kicks it all to heck. I'll simply have to move it farther away to save it.

[Rafe Covington]

As soon as I find a 15 in encore barrel in 41 mag gonna get it rechambered to 411 JDJ, always wanted one and reading TarHeels post has convinced me to do it.

Rafe:drinks:

[Tar Heel]

As soon as I find a 15 in encore barrel in 41 mag gonna get it rechambered to 411 JDJ, always wanted one and reading TarHeels post has convinced me to do it.

Rafe:drinks:

Rafe....please be sure to get some type of magna-porting or muzzle brake on the 411-JDJ. It is simply too much without one. I have a 14" 45-70 barrel I thought I could tame without a muzzle brake. Stupid me. The 411-JDJ kicks like a mule with the porting.

Tar Heel

[Tar Heel]

Off to the range tomorrow to shoot these loads. Can't believe It took this long to get there. Work keeps getting in the way!

[Groo]

Groo here
Is yours an encore ?????
Mine is a contender...
The super arrester break is the way to go if you use much cast as it will not
pack up like a standard one...

[Tar Heel]

Mine is a 14" Contender barrel with magna-porting.

[Tar Heel]

The partial shooting results are here! As I mentioned, we did not get all the loads shot. In fact we only got up to and through 40.0 grains of RL7 before my arms gave out. To shoot these over a chronograph is torture. But.....these loads were clocking in at 1850 FPS with a SD of 31 fps out of a SSK 14" barrel with magna-porting. I had expected about 1200-1400 fps velocity but WOW. Absolutely no leading with a drop quenched WW bullet. These were the PB version bullets (Accurate Mold 41340K). I'm just going to have to risk shooting the chrony and offhand these to save my forearms. Will keep you all posted.

Late edit: I just calculated out the Muzzle Energy for this load. A 30-06 shooting a 165gr bullet at 2800 fps gives 2872 ft/lb of muzzle energy. The above 411-JDJ load is cranking out 2580 ft/lb of muzzle energy. No wonder my forearm hurts.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
This is great reading ! Last time up north I worked with my 414 Supermag Dan Wesson using 1680 and a 265 gr GC. 36 grains was as far as I got before it got too cold & windy at the end of the year. I had not considered RL7 but I can see with heavier boolits how it would be an asset. Would you know what the twist rate is with that 411-JDJ barrel?
Mike in Peru

[Tar Heel]

Would you know what the twist rate is with that 411-JDJ barrel?
Mike in Peru


It seems to be 1:12 as best as I can determine. It is an SSK made barrel.

[GLynn41]

good stuff -thanks - think I will try some 295gr in my .41/445 just for fun

[Tar Heel]

good stuff -thanks - think I will try some 295gr in my .41/445 just for fun

I was, frankly, surprised they grouped so well. They "should" be too heavy for the twist rate in the Ruger. Go figure! I was also surprised at the MV the chrony reported. I double checked that....it is correct.

[GLynn41]

what size and lube are the 340's-

[Tar Heel]

what size and lube are the 340's-

They are 1 1/8" long, 340gr. Am using Lee Alox lube in all three grooves. Sized to .410

Here is the bullet on Tom's web site: http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=41-340K-D.png

According to existing load data (similar style, weight etc, different caliber), these should be clocking about 1200-1400 fps. I did not crimp in the crimp groove either since there was no need to crimp these and I could take advantage of that groove to apply another ring of lube.

Also.....I had initially asked, when first joining this board, about my first foray into cast rifle bullets. I was cautioned by some NOT to seat below the shoulder of the case due to pressure deformation of the bullet base causing leading and poor accuracy. Guess what?

Granted that 12 bullets isn't the combined experience of the naysayers BUT there was a camp that indicated they did not experience any adverse effects by seating below the shoulder on the case. I am currently among that group and confess that I have limited experience with rifle bullets (bottle neck cases).

[GLynn41]

thanxs for the info I have at times used boolits below the shoulder --and I use a dry lube like yours so far all good

[Tar Heel]

thanxs for the info I have at times used boolits below the shoulder --and I use a dry lube like yours so far all good

Glynn, the Lee ALOX I use is stick lube for the RCBS Lubrasizer. I guess that makes it wet?

[GLynn41]

oops -- in that case -- I guess it does not matter-- I was thinking of a little powder contaimination--likely not enough to matter

[Tar Heel]

oops -- in that case -- I guess it does not matter-- I was thinking of a little powder contaimination--likely not enough to matter

I would think I would get contamination with the wet lube if it melted. Is that what you meant or does the dry lube cause more problems. I've never used dry lube.

I'll bet it doesn't smell as good as the Alox either.....hehehehe.

[GLynn41]

I mean lube like Lee's liquid Alox-- that hardens sorry for the confusion

[Tar Heel]

Latest Update:

Fired the PB lead bullets with 41 and 42 grains of RL7. Did not chronograph these since we left off at 1850fps with the 340gr bullets and we have some way to go. The next step is to start with the GC bullets at 42.5-45.0 grains of RL7. My wrists hurt.

With other projects and work, I have not had as much range time as I had hoped this summer. Will endeavor to get this project completed and all results posted.

Of interest is the fact that the PB bullets grouped exceptionally well and delivered low SD when fired out of a magna-ported tube. Some folks have stated that the PB bullets will suffer if fired in a MP tube but I have not experienced degraded accuracy, leading or high SD with these loads.

[Tar Heel]

Update on this project: Loaded up some more 40gr loads with RL7 and put them over the chronograph. They are clocking an average of 1893 fps with a SD of 19 fps. I have been fortunate enough to have someone perform some "napkin math" and bounce that against my expected results of 1300 fps. It seems I may be on the lunatic fringe with these loads and before I do anything else, I'll try a non-magnum primer with the powder to see what impact that has with the velocity. If this higher-than-expected velocity can be used as a second level indicator for pressure, these loads may be at, or just over the maximum pressure which is safe for this cartridge.

According to a very educated user on here, my pressure/velocity at 40.0 grains should be about (36,251 PSI 1728 FPS). At 1900 fps, I may be working with pressures around 47,061 to 48,600 PSI. With a case head the size of the 444 Marlin, the educated guess for safe pressure is about 44,000 PSI.

Regardless of all the pressure possibilities, this load is a handful. If you would like to see it, take a look!

https://youtu.be/WahmDDl9zXA

[Tar Heel]

I have determined that loads generating between 1600-1700fps with the 340gr bullet are just fine. My nerves and wrists just can't take any more anyway. Today I chronographed some more loads and married that data with the "predicted" load, pressure, and velocity chart provided by another user. He provided me with the "napkin math" with which to compare my loads to and I am very grateful for that.

136833

Of note:
1. Chronographic data seems to differ by 2 grains at or near 40 grains and by 3 grains around 35 grains.
2. The magnum primers changed velocity by approx 100fps but pressure varied by 8000psi.
3. Actual charge of 36gr matched exactly the predicted pressure on the 39gr (predicted) load.
4. Velocity data is an average of 5 shots. Recognizing that 5 shots is not a valid statistical sample size.
5. Max pressure indicated for the 444 Marlin case head at 45000psi as per Mike Bellm.
6. There was a significant difference in the felt recoil between the two 40 grain loads.
7. Me thinketh I will pull down everything over 35 grains and reuse the components for 35gr loads.
8. Recoil over 1600fps is punishing even for a seasoned big bore handgunner.
9. At 1600fps, load generates almost 2000 ft-lb of energy. Just enough for ground hogs and sparrows.
10. From previous chronograph data loads between 39-42 all clocked the same 1900fps on the chronograph. This is a clear warning sign to me. These loads were using a Remington 9½M primer.
11. I will use non-magnum primers for all subsequent loads.
12. No loads fired showed “standard and accepted” high pressure signs. Primers were rounded and normal looking. They were not flattened or cratered. Cases extracted easily.

So I'll conclude this test with the conclusion that 1700fps is just as fast as one needs to go. 1600fps with the 340gr bullet is just fine too. There is NOTHING in North America needing hunting with a 340gr bullet at 1900fps.

[Groo]

Groo here
If you are not going after "The Big Five"
I see no need for that heavy a bullet except for fun...
The SSK "Ramslamers" have been used on the heavest game.
Your boolet is 40gr heaver!!!!!!
I have the molds for 357/41/44/and 454 and after my experiences with the 44-320gr,
I went back to the standard weights .
Even JD told us that deer only needed light-standard to standard weights.

[Tar Heel]

Groo here
If you are not going after "The Big Five"
I see no need for that heavy a bullet except for fun...
The SSK "Ramslamers" have been used on the heavest game.
Your boolet is 40gr heaver!!!!!!
I have the molds for 357/41/44/and 454 and after my experiences with the 44-320gr,
I went back to the standard weights .
Even JD told us that deer only needed light-standard to standard weights.

Agree. This was just an exercise. The 41 caliber 295gr bullet designed by JD is probably the effective limit for the 411-JDJ. This was a fun exercise however and the 340's shoot well at 1600 fps.

[rrob692326]

I have a 411 jdj 14 inch no brake that I shoot using rcbs 400 grain cast boolits. Getting 1600fps, recoil right up there with my 45/70 with 500 grain boolits. Great fun!

[Tar Heel]

I have a 411 jdj 14 inch no brake that I shoot using rcbs 400 grain cast boolits. Getting 1600fps, recoil right up there with my 45/70 with 500 grain boolits. Great fun!

I believe that would stop a tsunami.