Powder selection for HV CB's

[KYCaster]

I'm fairly new to loading boolits in rifle cartridges. I've had some success in duplicating factory ballistics in 35 Rem, 30-30 and 7.62X39. I've also been pretty well satisfied with reduced loads in most cartridges I've tried.

The problem is.....I've been bitten by the HV bug to the point that it has almost become an obsession.

The two cartridges that I'm concerned with are 308 Win and 222 Rem.

The 308 has a 1:12 twist on a Mauser action and I've managed to get <1 MOA at 2K fps with a 190 gr. bore rider boolit. Jacketed loads in this weight range top out at ~2500 and I'd really like to get good accuracy at 2300-2400.

I've tried by-the-book loads of IMR4895, IMR4064 and Alliant Re15, among others of similar burn rate and most of the starting level loads are in the 3+MOA range and quickly open up from there.

Similar deal with the 222. Its a Savage 340 with 1:14 twist. Best effort so far is with NOE 36 gr FP and Re7 at 10% below the book start load for a 40 gr. jacketed bullet...that's 2800 fps. By the time I reach the start load my groups are 3.5+MOA.

I wonder if I've reached the accuracy limit of the Savage and I have some jacketed loads ready to explore that when I manage to get some range time. Rem 50 gr PSP factory loads did 1.5 MOA, but that was with a very poor scope that has been replaced with one somewhat better.

Anywhooooooooo.....that covers most of what I've done so far......and this quote from Larry Gibson (taken mostly out of context from an unrelated thread) brings us to the point of my post...........

"The key was using a slow burning powder that gave consistent ignition...."

So............my best load in the 308 uses Re17 which isn't listed as an option with 190 gr bullets in any of the loading manuals I have. The load is about 88% density and is pretty consistent.....2050 fps, 21.5 ES, 11.2 SD......but that's only a three round sample. As charge weight went up in .5 gr increments, velocity increased predictably, ES and SD tightened up slightly and groups opened up quickly.

Now the questions...........

1) SEE..........I'm working with slower powder than is normally recommended for this application and charges less than 100% load density. How much should I worry about SEE. I know this is mostly speculation, but some of you guys have a pretty good handle on this. Should I be concerned with 90%+ loads.........85%+? Should I be using a filler in any available space?

2) Ignition.........The IMR powders I tried are single base and the Alliant Reloader series are double base. How much difference, if any, does this make in ease of ignition and consistent burn?

3) Compression...........I've been told that "ball" powders don't like to be compressed. How about stick powders? Single base? Double base? I see that the manuals often list compressed loads.........is there some rule of thumb concerning this? How much compression is OK?

4) How slow can I go? Re19??? Re21???? I know I'll soon reach a point of diminishing returns, like with WC860 I have to use a kicker just to get it to burn clean and reach 2k fps. Is there any reason I shouldn't continue the way I'm going with the Alliant powders?

5) Is there something else you can recommend that would be more likely to give me good results than the direction I'm going?

6) Am I an idiot for trying this? Am I going to blow myself up? Should I take up a safer hobby like knitting?

Comments???? Suggestions???? Looking forward to hearing what you guys have to say about this. :popcorn:

Jerry

[madsenshooter]

There should be no SEE worries, lead bullets are a lot different than jacketed bullets, they don't stop for bit in the throat and cause an obstruction, which ultimately leads to the SEE. Start, stop, start again at a much higher pressure.

RE19 should get you where you want to be in the 308 and burn clean. With 190gr boolit, start around 38gr, which gives me 2175fps out of my Krag with a 185gr boolit. I have some experiments loaded with 860/kicker/filler. Using a kicker with 860 in the 6x45, I noted it burns about the same speed as 4350/RL19. Don't know what you've used as a kicker, but in my Krag I use Blue Dot 3-4gr, enough 860 to equal 36gr total powder, then enough filler, BPI, to get light compression so the powders don't mix.

To get the 2300-2400fps you're after in the .308, you might have to go to RL22 or 4831 in order to keep the pressure low enough for your alloy. I get good accuracy out of a 6x45 that has a 1/8 twist @2350fps using slow powders. It takes a hard boolit because of the fast 5R twist.

With the 222, listen to others with more experience, I have a hard enough time with the 6mm.

You can get what you're after, especially since you have slow twist barrels. It's going to take powders that'll burn slow, but thoroughly and some fiddling with your alloy, maybe heat treating or at least water dropping.

[myfriendis410]

Have you considered paper patching? That seems to me to be the best method to achieve the results you're looking for. You can run a (slightly) softer alloy and really bump the velocity up into the range you are looking for with no leading. It does require some time and experimentation, but that's where the fun is, right?

I tried playing with a variety of powders in the 45-70 that were slower than anything listed. At some point you simply couldn't get enough powder in the case to achieve any meaningful velocity and the amount of unburned powder in the barrel was ridiculous.

If sticking with an as-cast bullet, I would definitely use WW with some tin and heat treat, using one of the lube recipes listed here. Mine made all the difference in the world.

[Larry Gibson]

[QUOTE=KYCaster;1579331]I'm fairly new to loading boolits in rifle cartridges. I've had some success in duplicating factory ballistics in 35 Rem, 30-30 and 7.62X39. I've also been pretty well satisfied with reduced loads in most cartridges I've tried.

The problem is.....I've been bitten by the HV bug to the point that it has almost become an obsession.

The two cartridges that I'm concerned with are 308 Win and 222 Rem.

The 308 has a 1:12 twist on a Mauser action and I've managed to get <1 MOA at 2K fps with a 190 gr. bore rider boolit. Jacketed loads in this weight range top out at ~2500 and I'd really like to get good accuracy at 2300-2400.

With the 12" twist you should get moa accuracy in the 2100 - 2200 fps range with that bore rider. To get the same 1 moa in the 2300 - 2400 fps range you should consider a better designed bullet like the 311466 or the LBT 150 gr. Odds are not good with getting consistent moa accuracy with a bore rider at that top end of the RPM threshold velocity range for that twist.

I've tried by-the-book loads of IMR4895, IMR4064 and Alliant Re15, among others of similar burn rate and most of the starting level loads are in the 3+MOA range and quickly open up from there.

*** mentioned you should try a slower burning powder like RL19, AA4350 or H4831SC. Use a dacron filler if loading density is less than 80-85% with those powders.

Similar deal with the 222. Its a Savage 340 with 1:14 twist. Best effort so far is with NOE 36 gr FP and Re7 at 10% below the book start load for a 40 gr. jacketed bullet...that's 2800 fps. By the time I reach the start load my groups are 3.5+MOA.

I wonder if I've reached the accuracy limit of the Savage and I have some jacketed loads ready to explore that when I manage to get some range time. Rem 50 gr PSP factory loads did 1.5 MOA, but that was with a very poor scope that has been replaced with one somewhat better.

Again, use a slower burning powder like the ones mentioned above. Having a lot of experience with Lyman's 225107 (simialr to the NOE you're using) I wouldn't expect great accuracy above 2200 fps. Again a switch to a better desighn like the 225438 or 225462 will allow good accuracy (as good as the rifle and scope will allow) upwards of 2400+ fps.

Anywhooooooooo.....that covers most of what I've done so far......and this quote from Larry Gibson (taken mostly out of context from an unrelated thread) brings us to the point of my post...........

"The key was using a slow burning powder that gave consistent ignition...."

So............my best load in the 308 uses Re17 which isn't listed as an option with 190 gr bullets in any of the loading manuals I have. The load is about 88% density and is pretty consistent.....2050 fps, 21.5 ES, 11.2 SD......but that's only a three round sample. As charge weight went up in .5 gr increments, velocity increased predictably, ES and SD tightened up slightly and groups opened up quickly.

That's avery good quote from from that very smart Larry Gibson BTW:wink: Problem is you're not following that advise. RL7 is on the fast end of the medium burners. You should be using RL19, AA4350 or H4831SC for example, as mentioned. Those should get that bullet upwards of 2100 - 2200 fps with ES's in the 50 fps range for a 10 shot test string before the RPM threshold for that bullet in the 12" twist is crossed and accuracy goes south.

Now the questions...........

1) SEE..........I'm working with slower powder than is normally recommended for this application and charges less than 100% load density. How much should I worry about SEE. I know this is mostly speculation, but some of you guys have a pretty good handle on this. Should I be concerned with 90%+ loads.........85%+? Should I be using a filler in any available space?

With the powders mentioned and using a dacron filler you can reduce to 50% loading density to start. No worry about SEE as long as the proper dacron filler is used.

2) Ignition.........The IMR powders I tried are single base and the Alliant Reloader series are double base. How much difference, if any, does this make in ease of ignition and consistent burn?

Depends on the load/bullet weight used. Each powder has a certain psi level needed for eficient burning. With the dacron filler the powder will be against the primer flash hole so ignition will be fine with standard primers, it's the burning that needs the psi to be efficient. For best results try the 3 powders I mentioned as they all ignite and burn efficiently with medium to heavy weight cast bullets in the .308W and 48 - 60 gr cast in the 222 and 223.

3) Compression...........I've been told that "ball" powders don't like to be compressed. How about stick powders? Single base? Double base? I see that the manuals often list compressed loads.........is there some rule of thumb concerning this? How much compression is OK?

With the powders mentioned compression will not be the issue. The need for the filler will be the issue.

4) How slow can I go? Re19??? Re21???? I know I'll soon reach a point of diminishing returns, like with WC860 I have to use a kicker just to get it to burn clean and reach 2k fps. Is there any reason I shouldn't continue the way I'm going with the Alliant powders?

Diminishing returns will be when, with 100% loading density the velocity is too slow and the SD and ES suck.

5) Is there something else you can recommend that would be more likely to give me good results than the direction I'm going?

Simply try what has been mentioned and be sure to follow the advise given, not only by that "smart guy" :-D but by the others helping out also.

6) Am I an idiot for trying this? Am I going to blow myself up? Should I take up a safer hobby like knitting?

If it was easy it wouldn't be a challenge or any fun..........

Larry Gibson

[Dutch4122]

One thing that you didn't mention is the barrel length of your .308 Winchester. Shorter barrels will be more forgiving of powder burn rates to a degree. What this means is that with a 20" barrel you can use a slightly faster burning powder than you can get away with if your rifle has a 24" barrel. For example, I have a 7.62 Nato FR-8 Spanish Mauser. Barrel length on this little carbine is 17.75" and I can get repeatable 1" groups using 45 grains of IMR-4007ssc under the 210 grn NOE 316299; for a chronographed velocity of 2180 fps. Boolit was sized to .314" and the .305" nose engraves on chambering. If I tried the exact same load in a 22" or 24" barreled .308 I have no doubt that the groups would open up considerably; and probably go high & wild due to overstressing the alloy.

The alloy I use is 50% clip on wheelweights & 50% pure lead stick on wheelweights, water dropped. BHN is approximately 22.

I think RL-19 would be a good place to start with your .308 Winchester. I have used this powder with the 7.65x53 and the same NOE 316299 sized to .314" in my 1891 Argentine Mauser rifle with a 29" barrel. I would say that if you don't get the velocity you're looking for then drop down to the next slightly faster burning powder, and repeat your tests.

Hope this helps,

P.S. A friend of mine loves Hodgdon Hybrid 100v in the .308 with 180 grn boolits, just a hint if RL-19 doesn't work for you. :D

[KYCaster]

Thanks for the advice.

I have a 311407 mold, a bit heavier than the 311466 (180 vs. 150) but the closest thing I have. I'll cast up a bunch of them and work up to where I am with the bore rider before I try the slower powders.

Sounds like the direction I'm going isn't too far wrong. We'll see what happens.

Thanks guys
Jerry

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Don't think you will have any problem with a 80-90% load density and a S.E.E.
At least from my experience & reading.:Fire::Fire: