A post I found on Freedom guns

[44man]

Crappy Freedom Arms?

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Myself and Dennis up here have had more than several "monday" freedom arms, lemons if ya will!

A few years back I had an ongoing disagreement with Bob Baker of FA on more than several boards and fired up the local FA rep at the local FA dealer when I showed with with 7 or 8 examples of screwed up $2000.00 guns for all to see!

Short version IMO is that when the perfect gun compay FA was handed over to the spoiled rich kid/son, quality took a serious dive.
No doubt some here recall all this crap.
FA throats have always been an issue as have pinched bores, what many gun types fail to recognise is that MOST FA owners rarely if ever shoot their prized (as well as over priced) FAs and an even lesser amount of FA owners are capable of shooting said prized FA to it's supposed legendary accuracy.
The good news is FA is capable of a factory repair in MOST cases.
Deep breath.........ahhhhhhh.

[mtngunr]

Would that original post have somehow originated in Alaska?.......if so, there's one particular individual up that way who under various names (Monte is the most infamous) has trashed more gun boards to extinction, trashed more products with outright lies, and tried to come across as THE expert in all things handguns than I would have believed possible, and this has been ongoing for years.....while about the only thing I know him to be expert on would be blowing up handguns with insane overloads and then claiming either the gun was defective or made of cast steel......I know quite a few EXTREMELY serious shooters, of the type of seriousness normally associated with names like Keith, McGivern, Skelton, several are widely published while most putter on in relative obscurity known only by their equally serious peers, and they ALL remain staunch supporters of Freedom Arms AND Baker.....my few dealings with Baker have shown him to be a man ready to address any issue you might have with one of guns, and he'll freely admit to any shortcomings or duds and take immediate corrective action...........one thing I hate about the internet is how folk will take a quote by some "expert" they know only from self-reputation with the typed word, and then broadcast it worldwide until it becomes another "known" thing on the electronic gossip column that is the world wide web......

[fourarmed]

Look at the revolver category results of any major IHMSA match, and you will see how FA revolvers stack up in accuracy against all others.

[Old Ironsights]

Before I sold mine to afford to move to where I still had no job... :(

I was getting quite remarkable accuracy from mine.

With the .45ACP cylinder I could hit, offhand, an 18" gong at 185 yds every time.

My 350grLBTWFN 31grH110 load as good (for me) to about 6" at 100yds. Not spectacular unless unless you consider the amount of recoil that load generates.

I really loved that gun. Bought it used in 1991 and should have never let it go. :(

[ktw]

I agree with Old Ironsights.

I have the Mdl 97 45C/45ACP and like it a lot. It has a far better trigger on it that any other rifle or handgun in my collection. I do have an Anschutz 22 with a triggger that comes close...

The only problem I've ever had with it involved an internal part breaking (hammer wouldn't engage at full cock). When I called up FA for a replacement part they asked me to send it back rather than take it apart myself. They fixed it and had it back to me in 7 days.

-ktw

[lovedogs]

Perhaps my experience with Freedom Arms was rare. I've never been able to handle or shoot one of their revolvers and this is the reason why....

Many years ago I was stationed down in Wy. while working for USFWS. I rat-holed my hard-earned money until I had enough to buy one of their field-grade .44's. When I got in their neighborhood I stopped in to look at, handle, and buy one of their guns.

There was a very unfriendly old gal behind a counter when I visited their establishment. I asked if they allowed tours of the plant. Nope! Well, okay. Then I asked to see one of their fine guns because I'd saved my money and wanted to handle one to see which I would purchase. She grumpily pointed me to a glass-topped gun case and said I could see them there. When I clarified I needed to hold one she told me that wasn't allowed. "We don't allow people to come in here and play with our guns, " she said. When I explained I had the money in my pocket to buy one and I'd driven half-way across the state to get one but needed to handle one first it didn't phase her attitude.

Being a gentleman I said nothing. But I didn't let the door hit me in the butt as I left, either. If I plan on spending that kind of cash for a gun I want to be able to see what I'm getting. I'm a die-hard Ruger fan now and don't even look in the general direction of Freedom Arms guns.

[45r]

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE NEW ONES, BUT MY MODEL 83 MADE IN 1988 IS SO ACCURATE I WOULD'T SELL IT OR TRADE IT FOR ANY OTHER REVOLVER.I hav'nt seen very many revolvers that can shoot inch and a half groups at 50 yards with iron sights for me.Some come close but they will loosen up long before that model 83 does.They were very considerate when I ever asked them about anything I wanted for my gun and I really like their new fiber optic front sight with a v-notch rear blade.My 454 kicks hard but I bet a scoped 41 mag would shoot inch and a half at 100 yards like ones I've seen in magazine tests.I should scope my 454 and see if I can shoot that good.I see most guys at the few sillywet matchs i've been to using model 83's and they win more than the rest of the revolver shooters put together.Maybe I'll go out again this summer and see if anything has changed.Glad I got my 80's vintage F/A if the new ones aren't as good.Hope they're still as good cause I'd like to get another one in 357 if I can afford it.

[Lloyd Smale]

you can get lucky and get a real good Ford and you can get unlucky and get a bad porche. That doesnt make the ford better then the porche. Every body that makes anything has a problem at one time or another. Its just that when it happens to someone who buys a FA they feel like theyve been bent over. Id about bet a dime to a dollar that any problem ANYONE had with a fa gun would have been taken care of asap by there service dept.

[dubber123]

I guess I got lucky with my 4 year old .475., Screwed together perfectly straight, cylinder throats are all the same, and on a good day will go into 1" at 50 yds. with iron sights. The trigger isn't fantastic, but not bad either. For the money, I'd be peeved at a lemon, but fully expect they'd take care of it. I will have more, and hope my luck holds out. Some people tout Rugers, but I got 3 bums in a row. Would I buy another? Yep, because they took care of their mistakes. For 2,000$ I would expect VERY few mistakes.

[m stevenson]

My experience is only one example. I bought a new M-97 41mag 4 1/4" almost 2 years ago. It has proven to be the most accurate and pleasing firearm I've ever owned. By a long, long shot. I like my Ruger's, but love my Freedom arms, and will buy more when I can.
Mark

[44man]

John called Freedom today and they told him to shoot a bunch of the same loads and it will get more accurate. How many of us are dumb enough to believe that? What do they want John to do, fill the oversize bore with copper or lead?
I have posted in a lot of sites, asked questions, talked to my gunsmith friend and a lot of guys at my club and get as many answers about bad guns as I do good ones. Freedom is not infallable and does turn out some junk along with super accurate ones. They are so expensive, you should be able to slug the bore and throats before laying down money.
I can't make any excuses for a company that should air gage every gun before putting it in a box. A bad barrel should be tossed before it gets near a frame.
I am afraid to plunk down money for one because I am prone to get lemons.

[dubber123]

I would get a little more serious with them on the phone, maybe demand to speak to Bob Baker. If the barrel is that far oversized, it's never going to shoot, and they should just rebarrel it. I too am prone to getting lemons, in the last 5 years I have gotten bad: Marlins, (1), Rugers, (3), Springfields, (1), Winchesters, (1), Remingtons, (1), Taurus, (1), (And that will NEVER happen again!), and probably a few others I can't remember right now. I will say again for 2,000$, you should have to look REAL hard to find ANYTHING wrong, much less a serious mis-match like this. Send it back, be a jerk if you have to, they deserve it.

[mtngunr]

And I'm still waiting on an answer to where the first quote came from......and this stuff about FA telling you to shoot it in sounds so uncharteristic I'll.....I'll just keep my mouth shut.....for now.....but it appears there's an agenda or axe grinding going on here, to my eyes....a proper way to deal with what appears to be unsatisfactory mechandise is to FIRST box up the gun, ship it to the maker with enclosed test targets, give them a chance to make it right (if it is wrong in the first place)......THEN, if the owner is unsatisfied with results or the answers, he can start airing out dirty laundry.....but NOT before........I have no patience whatsoever with folk trashing companies and products first......NONE.....fully half of such posts are bogus, and written by folk whose motivations escape me.....except perhaps attention......

edited in PS- please provide a link to that original post you found, as searches don't turn it up, even when quoted in its entirety....

[danski26]

My model 83 is the best revolver i have ever owned. I understand how getting a lemon can sour you though, as i bought a lemon S&W 629 a couple years ago.

Why don't you invite the owner of freedom arms to post on this thread? I would be interested what the other half of the story is.

I wonder if they suggested trying to shoot a bunch of the same ammo thinking you did not know how to shoot well and the practice might help.

If you are really so fed up with the pistol i will take it off you hands. I have a blackhawk made in the 70's i would trade you.

[44man]

Sorry Danski26, it is not my gun, it is my friend's. If you look at my avitar, you will see my typical 50 yd groups. To be accused of not being able to shoot by Freedom is a low blow. We shoot revolvers to 500 meters with accuracy that turns a lot of rifle shooters blue. We have seen many pack up and leave after watching us.
I expect nothing less from a Freedom and the owner can post all he wants to. If he lets a lemon slip through just to make money, he is wrong. They are not factory guns with loose tolerances, they are hand made, beautiful custom guns and every one should be perfect.
I marvel at the beauty and feel of this gun. To work the action is a wonderful thing. But to drop the hammer on live rounds is disappointing to say the least. I was expecting sub 1" 50 yd groups but it just sprays the backstop.
I would never expect to send a gun to Linebaugh or any of the other custom makers to return it with less accuracy then an out of box Ruger, would you?

[Fiveshooter]

I have 17 FA revolvers right now and even made the mistake of selling a couple more. Some of them have a few thousand heavy loaded rounds put through them. They all shoot very good. I never had a problem with any FA revolver. I can't answer as to the quality of thier factory service as I have never needed a repair on one. I did send in a .50 AE for a cylinder in .500 WE, an octagon barrel and micarta grips.
The gun was returned faster than promised and the workmanship was nothing less than perfect. I guess anybody can make a lemon but if I got one I think I would send it back for repair, rework or even replacement. My bet is they would make it right. Given my own experience with the guns I would have to say that a lemon from FA would be a rare exception and not a common thing.

[Fiveshooter]

Would that original post have somehow originated in Alaska?.......if so, there's one particular individual up that way who under various names (Monte is the most infamous) has trashed more gun boards to extinction, trashed more products with outright lies, and tried to come across as THE expert in all things handguns than I would have believed possible, and this has been ongoing for years.....while about the only thing I know him to be expert on would be blowing up handguns with insane overloads and then claiming either the gun was defective or made of cast steel......I know quite a few EXTREMELY serious shooters, of the type of seriousness normally associated with names like Keith, McGivern, Skelton, several are widely published while most putter on in relative obscurity known only by their equally serious peers, and they ALL remain staunch supporters of Freedom Arms AND Baker.....my few dealings with Baker have shown him to be a man ready to address any issue you might have with one of guns, and he'll freely admit to any shortcomings or duds and take immediate corrective action...........one thing I hate about the internet is how folk will take a quote by some "expert" they know only from self-reputation with the typed word, and then broadcast it worldwide until it becomes another "known" thing on the electronic gossip column that is the world wide web......

mtngunr,
I get the same feeling that Monty "may" be the author of that first post.
It sure reads like some of his posts I have read in the past. I remember seeing a few posts about a short barreled .500 Linebaugh that he built claiming velocities that border on the realm of impossible. As you can see by the picture below showing what one of his FA revolvers did to him you can tell he really is an expert in high power big bore handguns LOL...

http://photos.imageevent.com/fiveshooter/misc/websize/Monty.jpg

[Lloyd Smale]

one of these days ill have to tell you the story of my one and only bfr. A 480 that was a total ***! and talk about poor customer relations!!!
John called Freedom today and they told him to shoot a bunch of the same loads and it will get more accurate. How many of us are dumb enough to believe that? What do they want John to do, fill the oversize bore with copper or lead?
I have posted in a lot of sites, asked questions, talked to my gunsmith friend and a lot of guys at my club and get as many answers about bad guns as I do good ones. Freedom is not infallable and does turn out some junk along with super accurate ones. They are so expensive, you should be able to slug the bore and throats before laying down money.
I can't make any excuses for a company that should air gage every gun before putting it in a box. A bad barrel should be tossed before it gets near a frame.
I am afraid to plunk down money for one because I am prone to get lemons.

[Woodtroll]

44man-

This has been asked already, but perhaps I've missed your reply, if you made one: May we ask where you found the original post? I'd be interested in reading the rest of the thread.

Thanks, Regan

[44man]

I was just doing a search and read on a pile of forums that I don't belong to when I found it. I just copied and pasted.

[mtngunr]

I was just doing a search and read on a pile of forums that I don't belong to when I found it. I just copied and pasted.

So, we are left with either, the fact you will dredge up any anti-FA dreck and pass it along, or the question that perhaps you are the original author quoting themselves......both are distasteful.....
Your above statement, "We shoot revolvers to 500 meters with accuracy that turns a lot of rifle shooters blue. We have seen many pack up and leave after watching us," sounds like something the crappy FA post writer would have said.....

[lovedogs]

Mtngunr... all I can say is that I told of my experience honestly. I think after some of us get burned by the manufacturers who do sometimes put out a poor quality gun we tend to not have as much patience or compassion as those who've not been there and gotten burned. Myself, I've always given a full day's work and with the best quality I can give and when guns cost what they do now I expect to get my money's worth. If we buy a new gun we have the right to expect it to be of good quality. With the manufacturing capabilities we have nowadays there's no excuse for poor quality guns. When they don't turn out good the manufacturer should not argue but fix their mistakes they made by their own lack of attention to quality. Most who send guns in for repair don't do so at a whim; there's honestly something wrong and it should be rectified without hesitation. There are some mighty fine guns made today. But there is some awful junk, too. And you're not wrong to complain. If we had not complained over the years we would still be thinking a MOA rifle was a wonder. But due to honest, reasonable complaints we now know they can make much better products and we are all better off for it.

[mtngunr]

I HAVE been "burned", if you mean "bought a poor gun"......generally taken care of in a perfectly satisfactory manner by the maker, without recourse to slamming the product on a public airwave for thousands or more to read before the maker's had a go at making it right.....I've had problem child Rugers, S&W's, Taurus', Winchesters, Colt etc etc etc.....and never found any reason to call them "wallhangars" on a public forum and post an adjacent thread quoting one of the most infamous "trolls" in all of gundom, AFTER the warranty was allowed to work....generally, never found that neccessary BEFORE the warranty was allowed to work, either.....public trashing of products seems to be a national pastime since the arrival of the www, no matter what harm might come to a well meaning company who makes good on every warranty claim......as for there being no excuse for defective guns, my feeling is that it's a bloody miracle the guns are generally as good as they are, as they are designed, built, marketed, distributed, and sold by and to people, and people are generally not even close to perfect, and I know of very few things that they do that are perfect, either.....not even close.......but guns somehow still are made better than coffee makers, cars, furniture, dish washers, hot water heaters, clothing, shoes, houses, washing machines, computers, the list goes on and on of all the things that are NOT made as well as most guns, and many of those cost far more than any gun......

[Merc41]

I am pretty sure that most of us have been "burned" with a so called "poor gun" at least once in our lifetime. I know I have. But, I can honestly say, that the gun I was burned on, didn't cost me 2000 dollars either.
I purchased my model 83 on the premise that it was a quality firearm, custom made if you will. I paind a "quality" price for my revolver, and was very happy with my investment.
I also received a "test" target with my revolver with 3 test shots IIRC. The group was at 25 yards from a rest and was definitely nice.
With all that being said, I would have been bent out of shape had my revolver not performed up to "specifications".
I know that "mass produced" revolvers, i.e. Ruger, S & W, Colt, etc etc, do have bad apples every now and then. I EXPECT my FA revolver to be just a tad bit better than the "mass produced" revolver, and not to string shots all over the place. Maybe that is just my expectations, but I am sure that anyone else purchasing a FA revolver will be thinking pretty much along the same lines.
For the record, mine shoots fantastic, and i will have it forever!

[44man]

Merc41, thank you. My feelings exactly. Hundreds of posters and me included have posted about thousands of problems but as soon as I say "Freedom" A few jump down my throat and won't leave go. Only thing I can figure is they must be stock holders.
If I have scopes that blow up, molds that cast the wrong size, lube that doesn't work, guns way out of specs, whatever, I will continue to post because it is to our benefit and none of us wants to be burned. If I were to hide a problem, make excuses and 1000 of you bought the product and were disappointed, I could never forgive myself. I also want to know everything I can find about any product I am interested in before spending hard earned money on junk.
How many of you would read Consumer Reports and buy the dishwasher that failed after the third washing? Should they have kept quiet about the problems and let the service department take care of all the suckers that bought a poor product? Would any of you buy a certain Ford that catches fire in the parking lot?
I'm sorry, if Freedom is letting sub standard guns out, they are taking us for suckers and there is one born every minute.

[BluesBear]

I was just doing a search and read on a pile of forums that I don't belong to when I found it. I just copied and pasted.
Well even on the errornet, copying and pasting without stating the original URL is plagerism.
And no matter how unintelligent the text may be it's still a Theft of Intellectual Property.

In addition to illustrating a total lack of respect, it's just not cool.

[doc25]

Somebody should be checking URL's and see who is who!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe we can clear up some of this BS. If the gun shoots like crap then by all means I want to hear about it. I can't afford a FA and have never shot one so I have no comment on their firearms ... but there seems to be a lot of defensiveness about this. Why? If he has a crap gun then we should be supporting him, no? Instead of arguing that FA's are perfect. I own two crappy Taurus revolvers (my only two revolvers) am I going to get flamed for saying this?

[BluesBear]

I own two crappy Taurus revolvers (my only two revolvers) am I going to get flamed for saying this?Certainly not by me. And I'm a Taurus revolver lover. (I am also a moderator on a Taurus forum)
But as much as I like them I have seen some that should have never seen the outside of the factory. And at least you said that you OWN two bad ones instead of just saying you knew someone who had heard someone say they read something someplace about all of them being junk.

I also love S&W N-Frame revolvers. But I have had a few that weren't quite up to snuff. I had to perform minor surgery on my purchasednewinthebox 544 Texas Wagon Train .44-40 because from the factory, no factory ammo could seat deep enough in the chambers to allow the cylinder to rotate. But you don't hear me badmouthing S&W. I had previously owned another 544 that was perfect. I should have kept the first one.

I also own one of those Dan Wesson Bobtail Commanders that all of the magazine writers are foaming over. Mine required over sixty hours of work just to get it to run as well as my Colts did out of the box in 1994. Now it runs great and it's the most accurate 1911 pattern pistol I have ever owned. It's one of the best I have ever seen, but it was touch and go for a while. And after all of it's aggravition you don't see me trash talking DW. I simply got the bad one. Somebody had to.

If you buy enough guns sooner or later you'll buy a stinker. It just a matter of odds and the law of averages.
ALL of the gun companies occasionally spit out a lemon.
That's why they have customer service and authorized repair centers.
The Maytag repairman may be the loneliest man in town but he works enough to make a living.
Every company that manufactures anything will eventually drop a steaming pile.
The best you can do is watch where you step.

First hand reports of a defective product are good. It lets the rest of know what to look out for. Even second hand reports can be helpful. But blindly bashing and spreading falsehoods just to get attention is just plain stupid. Those who do so are simply lying gossips and should be taken to task every time.

On another forum I frequent, when someone posts what appears to be gossip, the common cry is simply "Cite Please!" It works amazingly well in separating the wheat from the chaff.
Intelligent people don't play "He said, She said".

[onceabull]

oh,gee.lets not stop here,surely there's someone on the globe wanting to trash Korth because 1: they COST A LOT ,or 2: nobody would send us one for a "trial run",or 3: for the attention !! :roll: Onceabull :twisted:

[BluesBear]

I've never fired a Korth.
I was once allowed to hold and dry fire a .357/9mm Korth.
I sure can't see where it's worth $4000.
I find it's appearance to be rather homely.
When I first saw it I thought it was a Rossi.
But if someone want's to spend that much money on one then more power to them.

[lar45]

The Maytag repairman may be the loneliest man in town but he works enough to make a living.
Every company that manufactures anything will eventually drop a steaming pile.
The best you can do is watch where you step.


Now that we've brought in the Maytag man, don't buy a new Maytag they are all crap now. I've got a lemon downstairs that trys to wash clothes. The repair guy has been here soo often the dogs don't even bark when he pulls up. The repair guy looks rough and has been putting in long hours trying to keep up with all the junk Maytags.
I hear that Maytag got bought out and the new management is building way cheap stuff and rakeing in the profit because people think they are paying more money for Maytag Quality.

when it finally quits for good, I should take it out and shoot it full of 12 bore holes.(there I talked about guns so I'm not totally off topic.)

[MT Gianni]

Somebody should be checking URL's and see who is who!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe we can clear up some of this BS. If the gun shoots like crap then by all means I want to hear about it. I can't afford a FA and have never shot one so I have no comment on their firearms ... but there seems to be a lot of defensiveness about this. Why? If he has a crap gun then we should be supporting him, no? Instead of arguing that FA's are perfect. I own two crappy Taurus revolvers (my only two revolvers) am I going to get flamed for saying this?

44 man has been on this board for at least two site changes [8years?] and is an asset and freely assists others. Monte was a pompous ass who enjoyed belittleing others and bragging about how great he was and life is in AK and how bad yours must be. No similarity's at all. Gianni

[44man]

For one thing I was only talking about getting one bad Freedom, never trashed the company, never said I didn't like them, never said I didn't want some. But I got such violent responses, I could not quit. I went searching.
Lets carry this a little farther. I spent the entire day removing the starter from a 6 cylinder Toyota 4 runner. The solonoid went bad and I had to make new contacts from thick copper. This thing does not come out and it fell in a hole and I could not move it. I had to remove a motor mount. After fixing it, it would not go in with the mount loose in place. with the starter in place, the mount would not go in. I had to let the starter almost down in the nasty hole and get the mount in and then work the starter back in place. With the starter in there is no way to get one of the mount bolts back in. It took all day but I finally did it. I HATE them!
WHAT------no one trashing me!
OH, I know, a Freedom Toyota! How about a Freedom Maytag?
Next time someone gets a bad Lee mold, call it a Freedom Lee.
I don't know why a few cry themselves to sleep when I say Freedom let out a bad $2000 gun! I suppose if the gun cost $20,000, everyone would agree with me that it shouldn't happen.
I expect something bad once in a while with cheap products. I NEVER expect it from Freedom! They are the ultimate in precision and one is too many, maybe they deserve a kick in the butt. Maybe the little rich kid did tell his super, experienced workers that if it screws in, sell it. How many of you trust CEO's?
Freedom should NOT have a service department, only a custom shop. A service department is only to fix bad products.
By the way, I love Toyotas! I also love Freedoms contrary to what some kids think.
Hang on, I am about to throw a tantrum---OOPS, sorry, it is only aching bones --Toyota bones. Darn stinking lousy company, don't buy one!
Some guys are wound too tight.

[BluesBear]

There's a year and a half old Maytag Neptune washer and dryer sitting in my laundry room that is working perfectly and has since day 1.
Yes I know that there were problems with earlier generation Maytag Neptune models but those issues had become moot with the newer models.

Whirlpool purchased Maytag shortly before my Maytags were purchased.
Maytag and Whirlpool are both long standing companies with good reputations.
As are Amana, Hoover, Jenn-Air and Magic Chef. Companies all owned by Maytag and now controlled by Whirlpool.

This entire thread is based on the perception of Value.
Some people think that a certain brand of revolver is worth two to four (or more) times more than another brand.
I own a J-Frame Taurus. It was ourchased because I did not believe a NIB S&W was worth twice as much as I paid NIB for the Taurus.

People who Buy Wilson or Baer high end 1911 pattern pistold expect them to perform better than a Rock River or even a Springfield Mil-Spec.
The problems arises when someone who cannot appreciate (or even understand) the difference gets involved.

You can't compare a ¼MOA benchrest rifle to a one deerhunt per year brush carbine either.

My reasonable expectations for my H&R 999 revolver are difference than my reasonable expectations for my Colt Woodsman Match Target. I like them both because both have lived up to my expectations.

As I said it's all about expectations versus perceived value.

Before WWII Gibson was the #1 electric guitar company. Their closest competitor was the Epiphone Company. There actually were magazine articles arguing which brand was better. Gibson bought Epiphone in the late 1950s effectively ending that feud.
Anyway, back before the war Gibson came up with the famous slogan "Only A Gibson is Good Enough".
Epiphone quickly responded with their now infamous slogan, "Epiphone - When good enough, isn't good enough."
Interestingly, but not surprisingly, Gibson dropped that slogan rather quickly and without fanfare. (Only to revive it again in the 1980s.)

If you can't tell the difference between a 1924 Gibson Lloyd Loar L-5 and a $49 guitar-in-a-box at the Wal-Mart checkout lane then you won't fully grasp the pricing disparity.

By the same token if you pay the money for a made in Tenness Gibson Les Paul Standard you expect the fit, finish and playability to be much better than the Made in Korea Epiphone Les Paul Standard that costs about one third as much.
Even though both look almost identical there are big differences.
But only you can determine which is the better value.

Different people have different perceptions of "Good Enough".

There are actually people who perceive their Costco Casio keyboard is as good as my Hammond B3.
I perceive them as stupid.
I don't care how they perceive me.

[454PB]

Yeah that picture looks like a true redneck F.A. owner.

My experience is limited to the only one I own, and it's the finest S.A. I've ever handled.

[44man]

BluesBear, I don't percieve anyone here as being stupid, a little jumpy, maybe, but NOT stupid.