2 PRB's at a time?

[Boerrancher]

Have any of you tried to shoot 2 PRB's at the same time and how accurate were they? The reason why I ask is because the old timer that taught me when I was a kid had a 45 cal that he always shot 2 PRBs out of. The first ball would be loaded in the normal manor, and the second would be patched and seated against the first. At 100 yards, that old rifle would put them about 2 inches apart every time. Talk about a killer on white tails.

I wish I could remember everything he said about it, but I specifically remember him telling me that not every muzzle loader would shoot a double PRB. Now did he mean that they had to have a special twist barrel to shoot a double, or was it that every once in a while you came across one that would shoot them well? I haven't tried it in any of mine, and had forgotten about Don's old double ball shooter, until last night when I found an ancient photo of him from the local news paper holding a huge stringer full of fish.

I would love to here everyone's thoughts on shooting a double PRB. It should be an interesting discussion.

Best wishes,

Joe

[ARKANSAS PACKRAT]

Boerrancher:
In a conversation with Bob Hoyt, he described shooting 2 rb loads with the same results you describe. I do not remember if both were patched.
The boys were doing this to beat the Pennsylvania "1 patched roundball" rule, I'd take Bob's word on it!
Nick

[Cornfused]

Shooting 2 balls is no big deal, but a WARNING. Do NOT permit any airspace to be between the 2 balls, that is highly dangerous - Like in 'bomb'. Rather than use 2 balls, just go to a bigger diameter round ball (I think .54 is about ideal).

[John Taylor]

Some people think bigger is better and I agree to a point. I have been make a few custom barrel in 72 cal with Forsyth rifling that are suppose to shoot a bit flatter but take more powder. Never tried the two ball load for accuracy but in competition in a stake shoot I use to dump five 54 cal balls down the barrel in my 54 rifle after the first shot. Powder charge was 60 grains and it would sure take a bunch of wood out of the stake. None of the balls were patched. Usually the distance was about 40 yards and I was not worried about accuracy, this was about cutting a wooden stake in half and the more wood that was taken out the better.
I do remember shooting a two ball load when trying to split a ball on an ax to break two clay pigeons, one on each side of the ax. It worked fine but I don't know if I actually split a ball.
In timed events if the range was short enough I didn't bother patching the ball in my 62. Knocking down small metal targets at close range it didn't seem to matter much if the ball was patched or not.
Like as has been stated already, make sure the ball/ balls is/ are against the powder and no air space at all.

[Themoose]

From what I have been told by some old timers, years ago, is that you do not patch the first ball down, just drop it down the barrel on top of your powder charge... then patch the second ball and seat firmly...

I tried this combination this fall on targets at 50 yards and both balls hit within 2 inches of the target..I cast for my muzzleloaders and have found that the two of the round balls(.490) weigh within 10 grains of a maxi-ball... so there isn't any real difference in recoil or performance than a regular maxi-ball charge...

I doubt if my method would yield 2" performance out to 100 yds, but I don't really want to try to shoot two patched balls out of my rifles to see if it would be more accurate... think the extra patched ball may cause a jump in pressure...

Hope this helps,

TheMoose

[Boerrancher]

Keep the info coming fellas. What has been posted already is very interesting and food for thought. I wish I could remember how Don loaded his. I was only like 10 when we were shooting doubles out of that particular rifle. It was an antique made by Gimmer in the middle 1800's. For those of you who don't know, Gimmer was Hawken's son in law, who picked up the business after the old man quit making guns.

best wishes,

Joe

[waksupi]

You of course need to reduce the powder charge for this.
I think it was Sam Fadala that did some experimenting with this about 30 years ago, and published the results of his testing in the old "Buckskin Report". I would almost bet that is where your buddy got the idea. I'll have to see if I can locate the article, as I still have most of the magazines here.
I seem to remember the consensus was, if you hit a deer with a single ball in the proper place, another ball isn't going to make it die any faster.

[Boerrancher]

Ric,

What really got me to thinking about it was the fact that he used his Gimmer to do this and not the Tingle. I remember asking and he said the Tingle wouldn't shoot them accurately, like the Gimmer did. That got me to thinking maybe a twist difference or something that made it possible.

Best wishes,

Joe

[mooman76]

I have been wanting to give it a try just for giggles and to see what it would do but have't tried it yet and I keep forgetting when I go out.

[MT Gianni]

A friend shot a deer with two rb's loaded in his TC flintlock when I hunted with him. His grouped 4" apart @100 yards. Dead deer but one would have killed it just as dead.

[snglstack]

Killed my first deer w/2 PRB and 100gr of FFG in TC Hawken, 1972. As stated above, one would have worked as well. At about maybe 35 yards the balls left a figure-eight hole and blew clean through...the chest cavity was mush. I have not shot this load since and, after reading above posts, I don't think I'll do it again. I recollect substantial recoil, and I think it blew my hammer to full cock...still have that rifle, but with a Green Mt short barrel...awesome w/factoryBuffalo bullets.

[FL-Flinter]

...... and some wonder why they get hurt or hurt someone else .....

Just for starters a 0.440"-0.445" round ball starts out at a diameter larger than most centerfire rifle bullets could even dream about achieving and the mechanism of injury associated with the resultant internal wound channel is also far better. My first ML was a .45 and it did quite well at putting venison on the table with a single 0.440" PRB ... subsequently, so did my .50, .54 & .62

Has anyone considered that the gas blowby around any un-patched balls can do a lot of strange things that more often than not result in catastrophic failure of the barrel? A few years ago a fellow brought a 1" .50 into my shop that was split from the breech to the muzzle thanks to a loose ball under a patched ball - "I've been doing that for years." was his claim but this time it blew-up in his face.

For those who claim seating the first patched ball then another one on top of it, you'll get away with it until one doesn't vent the trapped air and it blows up in your face. I stress the point to my clients that birdshot loads must be built at the muzzle and seated as an assembly to help prevent trapping air that can dislodge the load causing a bore obstruction. Double PRB loads are done ONLY for proof testing and one must take great care to make sure the second ball is firmly in contact with the fist PRB before the second one even enters the muzzle, any other manner is inviting the probability of causing a bore obstruction.

There used to be some videos on-line that would be worthwhile watching. One was a ninja guy who claimed he was fast enough to jump through the spinning steel blades of a huge ventilation fan. He did it many times until one time the fan won and ninja guy got chopped to pieces. Another good video is the guy who would light and drop an M-80 firecracker into a piece of steel pipe then use his other hand to drop a pool ball on top of it. He did that trick many times until that one time the pool ball blew his hand off at the wrist. If you're thinking that those are pretty stupid things to do, ask youself, "How stupid is it to take chances holding a pipe in front of my face that's trying to contain tens of thousands of pounds of pressure?"

[41cal]

You need to patch both roundballs and seat them tight onto one powdercharge with no space in between,otherwise you have a bore obstruction.
The weight of 2- 50 cal roundballs (360gr) equals the weight of a 50 cal conical .Thompson center actually had a 50 cal maxiball that weighed 370gr.
I remember reading an old T/C manual that had double ball loads for 45 and 50 cal
but i do not remember the powder charges that they used. they did not recommend them in later manuals.

[Shooter]

The double ball load is what the old timer's called "Loaded for Bear" around here. They used a double charge of powder to go with it, but we are talking about 50 Gr. standard (They didn't like to waste powder) so 100 Gr. for the bear load.
I have tried it, the second ball hits abour 2" out from the first.

[Boerrancher]

Lots of good info here. I don't know if I will ever try it or not, but one can never have too much information. I like many don't see the need in a double ball but would still like to know all the ins and outs of accomplishing it if I ever so choose to do so. I know that Don liked to hunt hogs down south with his front stuffers. I would almost bet that the double ball load was what he used for hogs. Like I said that was over 30 years ago.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Shooter]

Lots of good info here. I don't know if I will ever try it or not, but one can never have too much information. I like many don't see the need in a double ball but would still like to know all the ins and outs of accomplishing it if I ever so choose to do so. I know that Don liked to hunt hogs down south with his front stuffers. I would almost bet that the double ball load was what he used for hogs. Like I said that was over 30 years ago.

Best wishes,

Joe

In the east, as the game got smaller, rifles, like your .32 became more popular. Powder and lead were expensive.
A double ball load would allow you to take a deer or bear with a .32 or .36 cal rifle.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

"How stupid is it to take chances holding a pipe in front of my face that's trying to contain tens of thousands of pounds of pressure?"

Then all shooting is stupid. Especially smokeless guns.

As has been pointed out already, a double ball weighs about what a common conical bullet weighs. So it's not like the projectile weight exceeds anything these guns were made to handle.

As has also been pointed out, there is a danger of short seating - however I will point out that this danger exists even when shooting single balls.

All things considered I don't see anything more dangerous about double balling than loading buckshot into a smoothbore. Numerous, large projectiles packed on top of each other.

As for terminal ballistics - I think there has been some evidence that multiple, simultaneous hits are indeed more effective at instant incapacitation than a single bullet hit. This can be seen when large animals are struck with several buckshot pellets. The popularity of the 9mm has caused some police instructors to teach their pupils to shoot twice every time (so much for the advantage of extra magazine capacity).

My .54 ball shooters kill deer every time it puts a ball through their vitals. However I do have some rather long tracking jobs even with lung-shot deer. In this day and age of tough trespassing laws I wouldn't mind seeing deer pile up right where they're hit.

[Boerrancher]

In the east, as the game got smaller, rifles, like your .32 became more popular. Powder and lead were expensive.
A double ball load would allow you to take a deer or bear with a .32 or .36 cal rifle.

hmmm, now that has got me thinking about how much more useful my 32 has become, although it brings up a second question and that comes to the patching. I would think that both balls would have to be patched individually there at the muzzle and then the entire load pushed down and seated against the powder. I doubt with spit patches, there would be any chance of air being compressed between the two if loaded one after the other, but why take a chance?

I know that one would have to be close to take a deer with a 32 cal ML but, I am the guy that kills deer on a regular basis with sticks and rocks, and haven't had one get away yet. There shouldn't be much difference in the range with which a deer can be killed with a 32 cal or that of a stick and sharp rock. Actually the 32 should be better at it. If as a rule of thumb 2 PRBs are equal to a conical I may just have to look into getting an the Accurate mold that is a copy of the T/C conical.

I knew this thread would be good if enough people would participate. We have gotten some very good responses and with lots of good ideas. Thank you all for participating thus far.

Best wishes,

Joe

[docone31]

What about marking the ramrod? That way you could tell if the second ball was high or not.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Boer,

One thing I'm considering giving a try is to start the first patched ball and push it a little below the muzzle, then fill the void flush with tallow before starting the second ball and ramming home.

My thinking is that a filler between the two should help preserve the roundness of the balls and possibly attain better accuracy. And the void would help act as a "grease groove".

[wgr]

[QUOTE=Black Jaque Janaviac;1581247]Boer,

One thing I'm considering giving a try is to start the first patched ball and push it a little below the muzzle, then fill the void flush with tallow before starting the second ball and ramming home.

My thinking is that a filler between the two should help preserve the roundness of the balls and possibly attain better accuracy. And the void would help act as a "grease groove".[ you do that and if you get blow buy on the first ball, then you have the possibility of air space between the two balls

[Boerrancher]

Black Jack,

I have been trying to remember everything Dad's friend told me, but I am positive that there was no lube between the PRBs. I my leanings are somewhat towards WGR's about the blow by, and the reason for this is thus. With the extra lube between the two balls there is a much greater possibility for the top ball to have a better seal than the bottom one. In a perfect world the blow by would be relative and constant meaning that the second ball would never catch up to the first one while traveling down the bore, but I think we both know that nothing is perfect or flawless, so the chance of the above happening may not be great, it only takes once.

Best wishes,

Joe

[FL-Flinter]

Then all shooting is stupid. Especially smokeless guns.

As has been pointed out already, a double ball weighs about what a common conical bullet weighs. So it's not like the projectile weight exceeds anything these guns were made to handle.

As has also been pointed out, there is a danger of short seating - however I will point out that this danger exists even when shooting single balls.

All things considered I don't see anything more dangerous about double balling than loading buckshot into a smoothbore. Numerous, large projectiles packed on top of each other.

As for terminal ballistics - I think there has been some evidence that multiple, simultaneous hits are indeed more effective at instant incapacitation than a single bullet hit. This can be seen when large animals are struck with several buckshot pellets. The popularity of the 9mm has caused some police instructors to teach their pupils to shoot twice every time (so much for the advantage of extra magazine capacity).

My .54 ball shooters kill deer every time it puts a ball through their vitals. However I do have some rather long tracking jobs even with lung-shot deer. In this day and age of tough trespassing laws I wouldn't mind seeing deer pile up right where they're hit.

People wreck guns and/or hurt themselves every year because they don't load a single projectile or birdshot correctly or they're just not paying attention to what they're doing.

Like I said before, when you see a 1" .50 split wide open from end to end, perhaps it'll get your attention? How about a 20ga fowler barrel peeled open like a banana, the stock along with it and the shooter's left paw didn't look too appealing all stiched back together and swelled like a nasty meat balloon? (I know that was the last time he'll ram the wads separately.) Matter of fact, see if a client still has his .45 with three separate bulges you can plainly see from the outside, got them from loose balls under a patched one too. Then there's a nice inverted swamp .58 barrel, quite an impressive split from air trapped between two patched balls - luckily it vented opposite the shooter's hand.

There's a lot of things that can be done correctly and safely but that doesn't mean everything is or can be done correctly/safely by everyone. There are also many things presented on the internet that simply are NOT safe under any circumstances. Sorry if you're offended/annoyed that I point out the absolute need to load correctly because it's a matter of personal safety. As for your .54 not knocking deer down fast enough, perhaps you need to re-think your load/POI ... but, then again, I've seen deer take good solid hits from 7mm & .300 mags and still make 200+ yards before dropping so does that mean folks should be pushing two bullets from the magnum CF rifles too? :confused:

[Ragnarok]

A standard load for the ancient .69 caliber muskets was 'buck and ball'...basicaly a bore diameter ball with three buckshot for good measure.

Personaly..I just prefer a single projectile. Lot less chance of getting in trouble.

[725]

Jerry Cunningham published a "Destructive Testing of ML Rifle Barrels some time ago. Clearly not a reloading exercise but rather experiments to document over loading and multiple ball discharges and the relationship to damaged barrels. Sheds alot of light on this topic. The low end stuff tended not to be destructive. If I were to do it, I would calculate the throw weight of both balls, patches, etc.

[nanuk]

could you use a large crossed patch, seat the first just below the muzzle, and use the long remaining patch material to seat the second ball on top?

that way you'd have lead/lead contact, and the patch holding it all together

[John Taylor]

This is one page from Jerry Cunninghams book on Destructive testing of muzzle loading barrels. Jerry was the owner of Montana rifle barrel and Orion barrel company when I knew him. He has sold out several years ago. He helped me get started on rebores by helping me with info for building my rifling machine. Note the powder loads and number of balls in each test and the results.
Some of the other pages show some barrels that did come apart, this page only shows a few bulges.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l132/johnptaylor/JerryCunninghambook.jpg

[Boerrancher]

John,

Thanks for posting that destructive test results page. It proves my theory that it is hard to over load a muzzleloader using real black powder, as long as everything is seated snugly like it should be. I don't see how two patched round balls seated firmly against a reasonable powder charge could ever cause a problem. Does it mean that I am going to do it regularly? No. Probably not. I would consider it in my 32cal if I decided I wanted to go after something a bit bigger than a rodent.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Shooter]

When your hammer blows back to half cock, back off a bit.

[John Taylor]

When your hammer blows back to half cock, back off a bit.

I always thought it was when your shoulder blades banged together and you ended up facing away form the target was when you needed to back off some.

[Boerrancher]

The old timers I hung around with as a kid always told me that when the hammer blows back to half cock that is the max load for the gun and to never exceed it. I always figured that if I needed to load a gun that hot that it was blowing the hammer back, I needed a bigger gun.

Best wishes,

Joe

[DIRT Farmer]

Or it's time for a new nipple. I have seen several shotguns over the years that had self cocking hammers. A new nipple will fix the problem cheaper than a new nipple and a new lock. My first attempt at a slug shooting rifle, a Green river 1/20 45 barrel would burn a nipple in no time. A ten shot group required to steel nipples. The Gibbs and volenteer rifles have platium nipples in them. I am thinking about having a platium touch hole liner put in my trade gun, it will burn a liner in 500 or less shots.

[Shooter]

When your hammer blows back to half cock, back off a bit.

I did this back in the 70's with my T/C Hawken .45. I was expereminting with the double ball loads we are discussing. I was somewhere North of 150 Gr. of FFG. I realized I was blowing powder out the muzzle.

I wish I still had that rifle, it would cut clover leafs at 10 rods, and had gourgeous wood. Traded it in on an AR15 :mad:

Dirt, you are right about nipples. The old 14 Ga. English SB gun I started with did this with heavy loads.