New to casting lead -- oversize from Lee ..452

[Roamergrg]

I'm new to this forums (Greetings!), been on Gunboards for years and was sent here to answer an issue I have:

I am extremely new to casting lead, but I've been reloading for a few years. I picked up a Lee .452 230Gr 2r 6 cavity mold and cranked out a decent number of bullets earlier today that looked pretty decent.

I noticed some lead managed to get on the face of the mold, preventing a tight close, so I gently picked it off and it closed flush again.

Now, I was about to tumble lube them (Liquid Alox), but I grabbed a dial caliper first and I was surprised to say the least. The mold indicates it's a .452 mold, but the smallest bullet I have measured is .455. What has me scratching my head is that I've measured some bullets up into the range of .462, which seems to be so grossly over-sized that I don't think I could shoot them.

What am I doing wrong? My theory is that the lead on the face of the mold was keeping them a few thousands apart from each other, yielding slightly larger bullets.

Is it safe to fire a .455 RN lead bullet down a barrel that's nominally .452 ? I have always bought hard cast lead bullets from Wideners or elsewhere that are .452 and shoot very well.

So, please educate me if you're willing... I'm quite stumped. The .312 and .323 bullets I cast were about +.001 and consistent, it's just the .452 mold that caused me issues. (I blame the mold, but I acknowledge that it's likely operator error)

Also: Do you think that a Sizing die would help get these all uniform? Is it worth the trouble, or should I dump them into the melting Pot and try again ?

[geargnasher]

First, if they're that out of whack, no sizer will fix it without wiping out the bands, and weight will be all over the place not to mention the ogive will start in different places.

Measure a few of the boolits in several places, they are likely out of round if the mould wasn't closing. Clean the mould faces carefully and do a "daylight" check to make sure the blocks close COMPLETELY and aren't warped away from each other (cold or hot). You should see no light coming through between the blocks.

I'd scrap all those you cast at this point, unless you do some serious sizing they won't even chamber if some of them are .455"+.

One more thing, even if the blocks close with the sprue plate open, you aren't out of the weeds: It is a common issue for casters to grasp all three handles on the mould when filling it, and if you grab the sprue plate cam lever together with the mould block handles, it will cam open the blocks slightly and the boolits can be out of round, but you won't notice it because the sprue plate is covering the blocks. Just let that third handle float and grasp the block handles only.

It is entirely possible that the mould is dropping .455" boolits and your flashing issues made them out of round and even larger in places, but cover your bases with your measuring tool too. Check it against a factory .451" jacketed bullet for calibration so you know that the .455" is right and not .453" or so like they probably should be from that mould.

I'd also invest in a .452" push-through die from Lee and size every boolit you cast. It's extremely fast and a great way to "catch" those occasional oops boolits that are too fat due to a mould handling issue. If the boolit offers excessive resistance or the bands get wiped out, just cull them right then and there.

As for lube, check out the sticky in the lube section here titled "tumble lube, easy and mess-free" and make what we call 45/45/10 or Recluse Lube for a MUCH better formula than using straight liquid Alox. Trust me, you'll like it in the .45 ACP. Just be sure and cook the mix exactly like Recluse shows in the thread and don't use too much on the boolits. He posted lots of great pics to show you exactly what to do.

Good luck!

Gear

[mroliver77]

Measure them across the parting line and 90 degrees from the line. The .462 could possibly be sized but you would sure have weights all over the place.

I do believe the lead on the face caused at least part of the problem. Hold the closed mold up to a bright light source and look for a crack between the halves. I use a magnifying glass to look a mould over. It don't take much to hold them open.

Some Lee 6cav moulds will warp because of the drastic difference in material from inside to outside. This and stress cause some moulds to warp slightly leaving a gap between halves that increases the closer to the middle of the mould.

In my experience, moulds should be cycled from hot to cold at least half a dozen times before they become more stable. Then if there is a gap with nothing foreign causing it I bend mould straight. I use shim stock or thin washers close to the alignment pins on each side. Measure gap if possible with feeler gauge and shim to half again the measurement. (if measures .010 use .015 shims) I clamp the center tight with a C clamp and the heat cycle mould a couple times.

This has worked for me but use at your own discretion!

Casting is fun! So what if you have to recast them?

J

[runfiverun]

i'd back up and try again.
read gears post carefully.
now. if you again [second try] have boolits that are too large.
mold release spray can be applied to make the cavities smaller.
if you get 455 with a good and warmed up mold [and aren't using your thumb to make them bigger]
then a light spray on both sides of the mold with the mold release should get you into the 453 area.
work slowly and build up.

[Roamergrg]

Thanks everyone. I'm going to ditch this batch and re-cast them.

I have found that the bullets are in fact not just generally oversize, but rather out of round. If I spin a bullet around, I can see that most come in at .452 or .453 in one direction, but if I continue to turn them I'll have a spot that could be anywhere up to .462.

I think the bit about the sprue plate handle is entirely possible, it could also be a bit of lead on the mold face.

I have a different thought though... I am cutting off the sprue as soon as it solidifies, but then I'm dropping out the bullets within probably 5 seconds after that point. I'm betting that I simply need to let them cool another ten seconds or so and they're out of round because they're still so soft.

When you cast, what's the recommended delay between cutting off the sprue and opening up the mold ?

[geargnasher]

Timing of the dump after the cut varies on a bunch of things, like ambient temperature, mould temperature, alloy temperature, casting pace, size of sprue puddle (sprue plate temp), mould design, etc. etc....

I think you're doing well to cut the sprue just as it sets so it's slightly soft and easy on the sprue plate cam lever (they break easily with cold, hard sprues!!), but how long to wait before opening the blocks kind of depends on intuition and what sort of casting tempo you're maintaining to keep the mould at a good casting temperature. I'd say two to six seconds is an average for me with that particular mould, 675 degree wheel weight alloy, and a three pour per minute pace.

If the mould is dropping boolits .452-3" along the parting line, there's nothing wrong with the cut of the cavities, only that the blocks aren't closing right.

Gear

[williamwaco]

Take a look at this article.

http://www.reloadingtips.com/pages/missing_tumble_lube_grooves.htm


Be sure to clock on thd expand the photos of the Lee 6 cavity mold.
On the last photo, you can actually see the opening in the mold block through the sprue hole.

I expect this will explain why you are getting those very over sized bullets.
I have done it myself.


.

[runfiverun]

i usually cut the sprue as soon as it changes color.
i dump [okay slide] the sprue back into the pot,and dump the boolits.
this is about 3 seconds.
aluminum lets go of heat quickly.

[Bullwolf]

I'm betting that I simply need to let them cool another ten seconds or so and they're out of round because they're still so soft.


When I cast AC, or Air Cooled boolits I use an old folded up bath towel.

I like to drop the boolits a short distance, so that they land on top of the towel. I find that the softer landing helps prevent the boolits from getting dinged up bases, and other various deformities that occur when the soft boolits collide with each other, or a hard surface.

I would agree with the excellent advice given by others on this thread. You most likely have a bit of lead built up between the mold cavity faces, or are squeezing all three handles, and consequently holding the mold blocks open a bit.

I clean pieces of lead slag off of the mold either by wiping it with a leather glove when its hot, or I gently scrape them off using a soft wooden stick. (like a chopstick)

I would try casting a few more, and be careful that there is nothing keeping the mold from closing completely this time. I bet your results will be much better the next time around.


- Bullwolf

[ku4hx]

I had a Lee six cavity mold that advertised .452"; they dropped at .462". Sizing them removed all but the faintest trace of lube grooves. And it took King Kong's younger brother to work the sizer handle. That was my first clue.

Lee kept telling me it was my fault; Midway replaced the mold no questions asked. The replacement mold dropped boolits with the expected diameter.

[milprileb]

There is the trend: try to make the molds work and that is noteworthy. However,
I personally go to just a few attempts for solutions and then mail the mold back with sample bullets dropped and my issues. Lee has never flinched in fixing the situation or sending me replacement molds.

I respect being tenacious to make things work but.... some of you guys take it to the extreme and suffer aggravation too much.

[Roamergrg]

Well, I got some time off work, so I decided to try again today. I paid careful attention to avoid the sprue plate handle, and cleaned up the mold as best I could.

I am still getting bullets that are out of round, but the numbers are "better": Ranging from .452 to .456.

I'm going to get the pot heated up and measure each bullet. I'm wondering if one of the cavities is out of whack.

[stubshaft]

Try and drop boolits from individual cavities into separate containers. Then you can measure them and determine which cavity or cavities are giving you problems.

[runfiverun]

it wouldn't be the first time that a lee mold was out of round.....

[williamwaco]

it wouldn't be the first time that a lee mold was out of round.....



I have been casting for almost 60 years. I own or have owned around 50 molds. Only two of them would cast "round" bullets and these were "round" to +/- 0.0005. One was a H&G and the other was a Ballisti-Cast.

Most of my Lee molds are "round" to +/- .003. Lyman are no better than Lee in this respect.

I feel obligated to disclose that I do not own a mold from any of the custom mold makers you hear touted on this forum. I would be very surprised if those molds are not equal to to the H&G and Balisti-Cast.