45acp, large or small primers?

[tcbnick]

I've always had enough empty large primer brass for my reloading need untill I started this crack addicting habit called casting (I knew better than to ever look at this forum). So now I'm in the market for some more 45acp brass and find small and large primers? Whats the good the bad and ugly with the small if anything. Why did they start making shell with small primers? I only shoot these in my 1911 so besides keeping them seperate during reloading is there anything I need to know?
Thanks Nick

[Shiloh]

All of my ACP brass is large primer. The small primer pieces jam the Dillon and are culled.
Haven't found small primer .45 ACP in a long time.

They must work well or they wouldn't make them. I look at it as if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Other than as an option, I see no reason for them.

Shiloh

[Cherokee]

The ammo companies changed for some reason but the SP primer cases work fine. As you said, just keep them separate from the LP cases.

[MikeS]

Depending on how you reload, the small primer brass can be a problem if you're reloading on a progressive press, and you're priming on the press (like most people do). Basically this is also a problem when using a turret press, or even a single stage, IF you're priming on the press, as the small pockets will cause the press to stop when it's supposed to be inserting the primer.

As long as you separate out the small primer brass, either so you can hand prime the cases before reloading them, or if you're going to load on the press, so you can have the correct primer setup on the press.

Just a short/fast primer lesson on the 45ACP. When they switched priming compounds from the lead based priming compound to the new lead free stuff they found out that the new stuff didn't work exactly the same as the old (I don't remember the exact difference, I think the new stuff either stronger, or weaker than the old), so they tried several things as solutions. The first thing they did was try the small primer size. Then the tried crimping in the small primer, and they also tried making the flash hole larger. I don't recall what order these attempts were made in, but basically once you de-cap the brass, and remove the crimp (there are several ways to do this), you can reload the cases just like any other, just with using small primers. You don't need to worry about the flash hole size, as long as you're not using max loads. Some people think the small primer brass doesn't work as well, there are other people that think the small primer brass works better! I always prime my brass off the press using a Lee hand priming tool, so to me it makes no difference which kind I'm using, but I do keep the 2 types separate so I don't need to convert over the priming tool in the middle of priming a batch of brass.

[MikeS]

All of my ACP brass is large primer. The small primer pieces jam the Dillon and are culled. found small primer .45 ACP in a long time.

Shiloh

When you find the small primer brass, set it aside, and sell it to me, rather than discarding it!

[Shiloh]

When you find the small primer brass, set it aside, and sell it to me, rather than discarding it!

I could do that. As stated though, I haven't found any in a good while.
Which manufacturer makes it so I know who to look for on the headstamp??

Shiloh

[GRUMPA]

Between the 2 I haven't noticed anything performance wise that's different. I personally prefer the large primer because they are so common with the small primers being far and few between. I have had over 5k worth of 45 brass with only 5-6 of them being small primer, which I just set aside.

[Sonnypie]

I run into a few now and then with range pick ups.
The ones I don't use for examples, or jewelry, I toss.
I don't like to be priming my brass and hit one of them in the pile.
I see them as a stupid option.

The one I have here is head stamped WIN NT and 45 AUTO.
So I don't think it is some furrin stuff.

[RKJ]

I could do that. As stated though, I haven't found any in a good while.
Which manufacturer makes it so I know who to look for on the headstamp??

Shiloh


I've found Federal and CCI recently that had the small primer. I can't recall if there were any others as there weren't that many.

[felix]

They should have been made with the small primer from the beginning. Same with the 41 Mag. The large primer would have been OK in a longer cased 41 Mag. The saving grace on the 45acp is that 99 percent of the guns are autos with no freebore. ... felix

[Sonnypie]

When you find the small primer brass, set it aside, and sell it to me, rather than discarding it!

I'll remember that Mike.
But it is so darned rare I actually find any myself.

[beagle]

I like the SP cases as I use a single stage press but I could see where they would really be a pain in a Dillon. I segregate them and keep in lots so they work out pretty good for me./beagle

[Houndog]

I don't know how true this is but an old retired ordinance person once told me that it was determined by the "powers that be" that in a pinch a 30-06 case could be shortened and neck reamed and used in the 45. IF this was the thinking, using the same diameter primer, even if it is a different height, makes sense. In a wartime shortage situation, using a large rifle primer in a shortened 30-06 case for the 45ACP would work, and deepening a 45ACP primer pocket to accept a large rifle primer wouldn't be all that hard, in fact, it makes fairly good sense.

[tcbnick]

Yea, I hand prime only, so reloading them is'nt a problem. So what about reloading data? Do we need to change that because of the SP use? I would think nothing needs to change because were going down in size?
As far as how many are out there, I just see when looking for brass that most if not all venders warn that there may be a few SP in the bunch, that maybe just to keep customers aware.
FelixI alway like to read your post and find your information interesting so could you elaborate more?

[firefly1957]

There are other threads on this you had to do with non-lead "green primers" it is a real pain to get the wrong size primer in a progressive press I was loading 38 specials for my son in law and came across a couple Peters 38 special cases with large pistol primers? (OLD CASES)

[Rocky Raab]

There are several theories about why it got started. One says that it was an experiment to see if a milder primer was more accurate, a la benchrest rounds. Another says that large pistol primers were impossible for even ammo companies to get for a while, and they went to small ones to be able to load any .45 ACP at all. A third idea is that small primers cost less and to keep the spiraling end price of ammo down, they went to them.

Whatever the real reason, .45 ACP brass with small primers works at least as well as with large, may be more accurate, is less expensive (at least for the factories) and is therefore probably here to stay. In the not-too distant future, we may see posts wondering about "these odd .45 cases with large primer pockets in them."

[felix]

Tcbnick, read the posts written by 44Man about boolit pull and ignition. He has elaborated extensively.

Houndog, your analysis is correct and probably accurate at that from a manufacturing point of view. There is no reason the engineers would make unique drawing dies until necessary towards the tail end of the respective caliber lines. The same can be said about the differences in the 45 colt and 45-70 when it comes to boolit sizes especially. Brass thickness required at the boolit end just has to be the reasons needed for the different diameter 45 caliber boolits, 450 through 460. Insanity at its best from the reloading point of view.

... felix

[beagle]

From my experiences with the SP cases, there is no need to change the loading data. From my experiences in loading heavy bullets in both LP and SP cases for the Blackhawk convertible, the SP cases actually give less pressure indications than do loads in the LP cases.

I can't prove this but it may be an added benefit to using the SP cases./beagle


Yea, I hand prime only, so reloading them is'nt a problem. So what about reloading data? Do we need to change that because of the SP use? I would think nothing needs to change because were going down in size?
As far as how many are out there, I just see when looking for brass that most if not all venders warn that there may be a few SP in the bunch, that maybe just to keep customers aware.
FelixI alway like to read your post and find your information interesting so could you elaborate more?

[44man]

Where we really seen a difference was in the .45 ACP revolver. SP brass was 3X more accurate.
But there was also improvement in the 1911.
Working with the revolver I did not know that SP brass could be found so I made bushings. The results were dramatic to say the least. Then my friend bought once fired SP brass and he is a convert now.
Primers are so important that if you bring .44 loads to shoot, I will be able to tell what primer you used.

[mdi]

I have read that the small pistol primers were used in "green" or "non-toxic" ammo. Non-toxic primers might have needed a larger flash hole to properly ignite the powder, so a small primer was used to better contain resulting "blow back" pressure on the primer. Or so I read a couple years ago. I don't have a problem with small pistol primers in 45 ACP because I inspect my brass. Really simple, just turn the case in your hand and look at the cartridge head!:roll:

[tomme boy]

I have also seen Blazer and Speer SP cases. I think it is more to a manufacturing cost savings as that is one less thing to change over and stock in inventory. If you guys have never delt with Walmart on the manufacturing side, this makes sense. They set a price they will pay and you have to meet it.

[archmaker]

FWIW

I just sorted a 1,000 empties, this was purchased range brass that was somewhat sorted. Found 31 with SP, Federal, Blazer, and one lone Fiocchi USA.

Also had about 3 A-Merc which were thrown away.

[Powersgt]

Hand loader Magazine issue 274, Oct 2011, has a good article on this very subject. The authors claim is there is no considerable difference in load data or change in powder types, etc... The larger flash hole is due to the increased pressure of the "Green Primer" compound which damaged guns during initial test as a large primer and a small primer with small flash hole.

[mroliver77]

I keep 1000 SP cases for "Just in case" times. Besides the SP cases were cheap!

I got a very good deal on SR primers and bought a bunch. If needed, they work in this brass. I have worked up a load. Not optimum but I like to be prepared. In a pinch I have many options!
J

[MikeS]

In the not-too distant future, we may see posts wondering about "these odd .45 cases with large primer pockets in them."

Rocky, I just hope that in the not-too distant future, that they're not discussing the primer sizes in the past tense! "Back when almost anyone could own a gun... ...it's a good thing nobody can own a gun anymore, otherwise we would have to use 4 different size primers!"