1909 Argentine Questions

[gzig5]

I'm trying get some information and figure out a fair value for a nice 1909 Argentine rifle I have. All numbers match, made in Berlin with perfect crest and markings. Some dings on the stock but no cracks. Bore looks good. It has been re-chambered to 30-06. It is stamped on right side of receiver ring. Not sure if the arsenal did it or it happened when in came into the country. I know these bores are not .308, but .311-.312 right?

I would think the chamber would make it more desirable as a shooter for cast bullets.

Any thoughts on value?

Anyone shot one of these re-chambered rifles with cast?
I imagine jacketed don't do too well, but a good bore should shoot cast OK?

[dualsport]

The re-chamber will reduce the collector value. It's too bad as the ones with crest intact are scarce. I have a 7.7 Japanese Type 99 that is as issued except it was rechambered to 30-06. It shoots good enough.

[Dutchman]

The 1909 Argentines didn't have the crest removed. That was the 1891 rifles only, not carbines.

I'm familiar with your 1909 rechambered to .30-06 and marked on the receiver. They were done in the U.S. by the importer to make them more attractive to buyers as the only source for 7.65x53 ammo in the '60s was Norma. The same identical situation with Swiss 7.5x55 and Swedish 6.5x55 except there was some Swedish surplus in the U.S. in the 60s.

Your rifle will shoot jacketed just fine but the bullets need to be .311/.312". That means handloading is the only way to make the rifle perform. Cast bullets are widely available in .311"-.314" so handloading cast in these rifles is a piece o'cake.

This will give you an idea of what mine is like. I paid $175 from a friend a few years back. It's 100% matching down to the cleaning rod and the bore is immaculate. But it has wear & tear on the outside. I preferred this rifle as I wanted a shooter I didn't have to baby. Caliber is 7.65x53.

If your rifle is in similar condition it's worth no less than $150. Without photos it's impossible to have a real opinion about your rifle. It could bring $175. To a collector of Argentine rifles it's value is severely compromised. To a handloader it's value is barely compromised. Having a .30-06 chamber isn't all that much of a positive as 7.65x53 cases are fairly easy to make from 8x57 Mauser or .30-06.

If you come up with a number and want a quick easy sale I may be interested. Let me know.

http://images107.fotki.com/v71/photos/4/28344/9895637/ag1-vi.jpg
http://images16.fotki.com/v378/photos/4/28344/9895637/ag5-vi.jpg
http://images107.fotki.com/v71/photos/4/28344/9895637/ag4-vi.jpg

[Ed in North Texas]

Dutchman is correct on all counts. Collectors will not be interested in these rifles (as collectable rifles), which drives the price down and the price of those remaining in the original chambering up. But for those of us who reload (everyone on this board), the re-chambering is no real detriment to the rifle as a "shooter". J-words are available in .311 and .312 (think .303 Brit), so even jacketed shooting is possible. Just that the available universe of jacketed bullets is limited, and .308 will rattle down the bore.

And, if you decide to sell, I'm sure there will be folks interested.

[L Ross]

I have worked with three of these rifles. All had been "sporterized" when obtained. Mine just had the military wood cut down and a shotgun recoil pad screwed on.Two owned by friends, one in an after market sporter stock, another also just cut down military wood. They all actually grouped into about 5" @ 200 yards with .308" jacketed bullets. When we reloaded with Hornady 174 gr. .312" jacketed bullets they usually reduced the groups size by half. I used my as a bad weather rifle with the metal painted with Rustoleum satin black spray paint and had a Redfield receiver sight on it and used it to kill a few deer.
Eventually I sent it to Norm Johnson of Turtle Lake N.D. and had it rebored to 35 Whelen with a 1/16" twist to be my cast boolit hunting gun in bolt action. I am very satisfied with his work, very. Norm's work was reasonable, professionally done, and quickly returned. Great way to get an inexpensive 35 Whelen. Your choice of twist from 1/9" to 1/18"in 1" increments.

Duke

[bob208]

yes my father had one that was also sporterized had a scope on it. it would not shoot a good group.so i sat down and read the loading books about both the 06 and 7.65.thought about it and said lets try some .311 bullits i had for my .303.it truned into a tack driver.

also in my loading adventures over the years i have run into real nice 6.5 jap rifles rechambered to 257 roberts. a lot of the vets for some reason cat the 6.5 a .25

[EDG]

Guys looking for a rifle to build a Mauser custom hunting rifle will $250 to $400 for these depending on the condition of the action.
They just pull off the barrel and stock and sell those parts.

[EMC45]

I bought one of these a few years back for $125 for the action only.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Friend of mine had his `09 chambered in `06 completely sporterized by a gun shop. It kept the original mil. barrel. I worked up a load for it using Nosler 180 gr. BT bullets using IMR-4350 powder with Win. primers and Win. brass. That was about 20 yrs ago, the rifle would and still does put 3 shots into the same hole on my 100 yd. range! I can only assume it has a tight bore as the original rifle looked arsenal new. My friend used this rifle on 3 continets hunting, he took 2 very nice whitetails just last fall with it.Robert

[gnoahhh]

The main value in a 1909 Argentine is in its bottom metal. Beyond that, it's just another 98 Mauser. If it were mine, and I weren't going to cannibalize it for its action, I would get a .311 expander ball for my '06 sizer and load some 7.65 bullets and see what it did. If it shot ok , that would ameliorate some of the disadvantage of it having been re-chambered from 7.65x53 to '06. Only one way to find out if the guy who ran that reamer into the original chamber knew what he was doing!

[6.5 mike]

My 1909 was done the same way, 35 Whelen bbl fixed it. If anyone is interested in the take off bbl PM me, it's your's for the shipping. It is in good shape. :popcorn:

[dualsport]

Oh yeah. I'll take it. What a generous offer. PM to follow

[6.5 mike]

Barrel headed to dualsport when I get off the boat on the 8 th. Enjoy.

[gzig5]

Guys looking for a rifle to build a Mauser custom hunting rifle will $250 to $400 for these depending on the condition of the action.
They just pull off the barrel and stock and sell those parts.

I'm familiar with what the actions and bottom metal go for, but I really didn't know what a complete rifle would go for. I traded for it from a club member at the end of our swap meet for the action and bottom metal with a 9.3x62 in mind and threw it in the safe. I was thinking about selling the stock and it was then that I realized that everything matched up and that it might have some collector interest. Doesn't sound like it so I will try some bullets I have left over from a .303 British. If it shoots, I'll leave it be for a while. If not, I'll break it down and part out the stuff I don't need. Kind of be a shame, the inletting on the stock is really tight. But, I'm a shooter, not a collector. I need to get rid of a 1912 built Colt 1911 for the same reason. Can't bring myself to shoot it, so it isn't much good to me.