Enfield No4 M2 accuracy caused by stock?

[nelsonted1]

I have a No4 mk2 with a shortened, sporterized forstock. It is a poor shooter. Question is: will the missing foream length and upward pressure on the end of the barrel often claimed to be required to get accuracy usually a requirement? She wails at me from the closet hoping to go out shooting but her production is so pitiful I leave her behind. She slugs about 3.12 and shoot paper patched to .314, lee 312 and even the Lee 8mm and the karabiner. It's just so sad...

TED

[35 Whelen]

What load are you using? I've had good luck with my No.4's using just about any bullet with 12 grs. of Unique, 10 grs. of Red Dot, 12-13 grs. 2400 and 20-22 grs. of SR4759. with the last load I use PSB shotgun buffer for a filler. Neat thing about this load is the buffer 100% prevents leading when shooting slightly undersized bullets.

35W

[303Guy]

None of my 303's have any barrel to fore-end contact. The reciever and knox form do need to be firmely clamped. My teo-groove with its rust textured bore is scary accurate with j-words. My No4 barreled No.I produced 1¼ MOA with j-words. Maybe it's the way the action area is clamped?

[Janoosh]

Just thinking out loud. Is the butt stock tight? And..... It is possible to shoot this firearm without a fore end. Off a sandbag. Wouldn't that remove any variables? And then add the fore end and gauge accuracy. I have a Savage project gun (needs all wood, as none came with the gun), and want to know about accurizing it when I assemble all the parts.

[higgins]

Was the barrel shortened along with the forearm? If so check the crown and see if it was properly done.

[JeffinNZ]

In contrast to 303Guy all my Lee Enfields have a pressure point (or two). I have yet to get one to shoot without. My advice is load some ammo that is known to be accurate, go to the range and alter the bedding points, fire a group, repeat. See what it likes.

[10x]

I have shot a number of No. 4 rifles. All seem to shoot much better with an 8 to 10 oz pressure point under barrel at the tip of the fore end(full stock military rifles). They also need the back part of the fore end to support the barrel for about 3 to 4 inches. Add layers of cigarette rolling paper under the tip of the barrel as a starting point to see if group size changes with a change in fore end pressure. Keep in mind that the fore end pressure on the Military No. 4 rifles was at the muzzle as well - not part way down the barrel after it has been sporterized.
It may be simpler to glass bed the whole barrel channel - you may want to get a second sporter fore end to do this - if you do try for accuracy with the second fore end - that may tighten up groups as well.

Other issues - check the crown, check that the muzzle is square to the bore. check that the last 1/2 inch of rifling is not a larger diameter than the bore.

And clean that bore with brake clean ( do this outside) followed by a soak in household ammonia (gets 60 years of copper fouling out).
If you clean the bore using this method rinse with hot water until the barrel is hot, dry and immediately run an oily patch down the barrel. Both Brake Kleen and ammonia will take finish off of wood so be cautious there as well.

I have been amazed at the amount of copper fouling ammonia will take out of a bore. In fact the bore gets so clean that any faults like pitting, cracks, or frosting (usually caused by moisture in the bore) will show up. Those faults were there before - the fouling just covered them up.

I have had group size drop to under 2" (from over 15") after getting the copper fouling out of several number 4 rifles.

[nelsonted1]

I have another No 4 with the full military stock. She has been around the block. I shot her with jacketed ammo and found her to be shockingly accurate. Then tried .310 boolits and hit the target sideways. I was lucky i tried the jacketed first or I'd have been despairing of a worn out beauty. I found her taste was Lee 8mm bullets pushed through a .314 sizing die, esp. the 230 grain Karibiner. After that experience i learned to never accept defeat the first dozen or so attempts.

I am wondering if I should maybe take the forearm off that rifle and try it on this one. I don't think anything would be harmed since I can't remember using any shims on the forend of the first rifle. This rifle needs work since she needs another stock after someone put a recoil pad on her. I have so many rifles that need exercise I haven't played with this one in quite awhile.

I wonder at my love of rifles. Something is wrong when I refer to them as she and her. I often will load them up and sight down the barrel and think to myself if this rifle could talk I wonder what she'd say. I am indifferent with pistols and only get wound up on shotguns when I shoot slugs through them. A woefully ignorant woman would say I have a sickness but everyone needs one of those- a sickness I mean.

TED

[beemer]

I have done a lot of tinkering with the bedding on Enfield rifles. The best thing I can tell you is that I have more questions than answers. The only No4 I cut down and floated went from accurate to awfull. Some wanted to be floated and a No1 turned into a tackdriver with some pressure at the the tip of the forearm. You fool with it enough and the rifle will tell you what it likes.

There are a few thing that will get you started. The butstock needs to be solid in its socket and the action and knox form needs to be solid without binding and warpping and as already mentioned before get the bore clean. Find the article that JeffinNZ wrote, it's as good as any you will find.

The No4 that I cut down was a unfired No4 Mk2. It shot very well but the forearm warped enough to make it unusable so I cut it down and floated it. I eventually found a new forestock and restored it to military trim. I floated the barrel,for some reason floating worked this time, and drilled and tapped it for a scope, it shoots as well as ever. I prefer a floated barrel for my hunting rifles, in some cases you might lose a little accuracy but moisture changes in the wood will have less effect on the barrel.


Dave

[polara426sh]

Since the forearm has already been cut it wouldn't do any harm to install a screw in the forearm similar to the Winchester 52 target rifles had. This way you could vary forearm pressure and find out what would be the most accurate. Now that I think about it, I believe it was the older Remington 40x rifles that had the adjustable bedding screws.

[303Guy]

I wonder why results vary on fore-arm pressure and free floating?

I'm suspecting it's the bedding of the action and bottom strap. That bottom strap is a spring and is curved and needs to apply an even pressure and the action needs to seat along its length with equal pressure. A problem could be in the front screw area in that the steal sleave might be preventing full clamping pressure there. Bedding those actions can be a bit tricky because of the absence of a rear clamping screw. The bottom strap should not just drop into place. Fore-end pressure could be compensating for insufficient bottom strap pressure at the rear. Just speculating.:roll:

[beemer]

303 Guy
I watch the sleeve around the screw and don't let it get too long or to short. I think it helps to bed the knox form, it gives a longer surface to settle the action in and keep it from rocking in the stock and hold consistant preasure at the back.The action also needs to be checked for to side play at the rear. You can glue wood shims on each side to solve that problem.

Maybe the fact that it has no back action screw and the locking lugs are at the rear is part of the overall problem.

Dave

[303Guy]

Quite so. The bedding of the reciever must be on the sides as well. It needs to be firm in all directions then clamped by the spring action of the bottom strap. The steel sleave must not be carrying the screw pressure.

[nelsonted1]

How about this: Take the forarm off completely, set the action on the bags and fire for... I wonder if that barrel would twang up and down.

[Multigunner]

Use the bedding technique on the lower scanned page (figure 5) found in the article in the third post down in the linked thread.

http://www.yesterdaysweapons.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=870

Its for a full stocked No.4(T) sniper rifle but just bed as depicted leaving no contact past the point midway of the lightening channels.
The same bedding technique works well with the SMLE if it has a shortened fore end.

[PAT303]

I have just bedded both my Mk111 and No.4,both took many many hours of slooow scraping with a sharp chisel to get the contact and clearances right and quite a bit of packing also and niether likes what the other likes.The No.4 is center bedded with the forward free floating and it didn't group with any of the loads I fed it except the NOE 316365 over 12grns of Trail Boss but it is early days.For a sporter I would bed the last two inches of the forestock the knox form and draws and then add or take away the barrel up preasure until you find what it likes. Pat

[303Guy]

In the 'yesterdaysweapons' post the 'bedding' of the bottom strap is not shown. That is the important part. It is curved and has two lugs which cam the forend back as the entire strap gets pulled flat on tightening the screw. If it's not clamping properly at the rear, who knows what effect it will have on accuracy.

[Mohillbilly]

Yes check around the mag well for cracks . I had a #5 that shot a foot to the left. front sight was drifted as far left as it would go an still shot a foot to the left . the crack was not easyly seen . once straighten up and epoxyed it shot well . stock is still bending to the left and I will have to repair again with a scraper .

[Multigunner]

In the 'yesterdaysweapons' post the 'bedding' of the bottom strap is not shown. That is the important part. It is curved and has two lugs which cam the forend back as the entire strap gets pulled flat on tightening the screw. If it's not clamping properly at the rear, who knows what effect it will have on accuracy.

A bent or warped trigger guard, usually only the rails/legs on either side of the mag well may bend, can throw off bedding badly.
I had a Lithgow that no matter what would always lay straight in the fore end till the trigger guard king screw was tightened then the barrel was pulled to the right to touch the side of the channel.
I finally figured this out, and the bent rails were not hard to straighten out.

[303Guy]

I'm not sure what is meant by being bent. The one I have in hand looks a little flat if not 'bent' upward between the magazine well front and rear. The bottom metal is supposed to be curved outward so as to apply spring load on the wood thus clamping it between the receiver and the bottom strap which gets straightened in the process. At least, that's how I understand it. So on clamping the bottom metal down, the two 'lugs' which are the trigger pivot bosses, engage the wood and pull it up and back first, then progressively applies pressure along the length to the front screw resulting in firm pressure along the length of the receiver. So this one I have would need re-tensioning. Perhaps such damage occurs from excessive load at the rear, directly under the trigger guard. I wonder how many others of mine are like that! Or how many others in general are like that, causing accuracy problems with Lee Enfields?

My pig gun has no fore-end at all. I wonder if I've been blaming the bad bore for too much?

[Multigunner]

I'm not sure what is meant by being bent.

From one side to the other, or with a twist.

Others have mentioned encountering this situation with older EY grenade launcher rifles, so it may be due to the stress of firing grenades, which is always hard on fore ends.

[303Guy]

Thanks. That's something I wouldn't have expected to to find.

I think it's time I bedded my 25-303. It has a barrel identical to the MkIII barrel in length and profile. Pretty skinny for what the rifle is supposed to do but it was quite accurate until the scope went belly up. At least I think it was the scope. I'll take photo's of each stage as I progress and do a thread on it. That might take a while.[smilie=1:

[303Guy]

Something on the No4, my rust textured bore two-groove is very accurate with j-words and the only 'bedding' I have done is placing a bit of cloth under the knox form to clamp it tight. I have the idea the gun is actually sensitive to hold. Squeeze it and it shoots off. I should do a test for that then bed it properly and see if it makes a difference.

[303Guy]

How about this: Take the forarm off completely, set the action on the bags and fire for... I wonder if that barrel would twang up and down.I meant to comment on this idea earlier. I doubt any accuracy can be determined this way with the bare barrel resting on bags. Holding the barrel loosely in the hand might work or perhaps on a soft pillow.

[Janoosh]

I was of the opinion that with no fore end, and a rest right at the barrel, action junction, (is that under the knox form?), that some sort of group could be found or accuracy made. Kinda like shooting an H+R single shot without the fore arm. No pressure at all on the barrel.

[303Guy]

I should think that would work quite well. It would show what effect the fore-end is having.

[Multigunner]

I've testfired a No.4 without fore end, but only to try out a method for using the rifle while my left arm was weakened by an injury.
I used a modified Palma stance holding the rifle by the magazine box with elbow tucked tight to my waist and sling clipped to the action cover loop behind the kingscrew. The sling run around the wrist of the bad arm to brace it and back over and around the right shoulder to add lift.
It worked okay, but I wasn't trying for tightest group, just seeing if it worked for off hand shooting if necessary.

The arm works better now, though I usually can't rotate the wrist far enough to take a proper grip on the fore end without it seizing up. I usually lay the fore end in the V of thumb and index finger . I still use the Palma grip sometimes, only gripping the front of the mag with thumb and two fingers.

PS
For those among us with injuries or other medical problems that interfere with using the standard grips and stances check out the methods used by some marksmanship teams, tightly strapped leather coats, arm bands with attachments for wrist brace loops, etc.

Also few U S made rifles have much toe out, a fair amount of toe out can make it easier to maintain a steady hold.
The Enfield two piece stock allows a bit of experimentation with toe out if you don't mind altering the action strap end of the butt stock slightly.

I've considered making a palm rest with threaded shank to take the place of the king screw, but I think the thread pattern might not be easy to duplicate.

[303Guy]

Whoever made my two-groove butt stock gave it a healthy toe-out and a rather nice hand grip and cheek piece with a high Monte Carlo comb. I'm going to make a mold of it and make fibre-glass stocks one day. I went so far as to dump the recoil pad and stick a chunk of wood in it's place for for use as a slippery mud bank climbing aid. It works![smilie=1:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/Two-Groove002small.jpg

That carry cord is what the rear sight ears were actually meant for. I have elbow-itus! It's brilliant.

This is why it doesn't have any felt recoil.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/Two-Groove003.jpg

Sorry - I just had to put that in. :mrgreen: