Copper Jackets

[DeanoBeanCounter]

:twisted: This is probably a taboo subject, but. Somebody once told that you can buy copper jackets and pore lead into them. I've don't ever remember seeing them advertised. Just gas checks and they go on the back end not the front. Just curious.
:roll:
Deano

[kywoodwrkr]

Do you mean half jackets or some such?
They can be used for the swaging of bullets.
You have to have a fairly heavy duty press for this as the pressure required to swage lead is fairly high.
Some folks on this forum, I think, do just this sort of thing.
You cut a piece of lead wire off a roll and put it inside the cup and then squeeze the bejeebers out of it in a forming die and walla, a jacketed bullet.
I used to make 38 and 9mm with an old Herters setup.
Sold and gave away all the parts a long time ago.
DaveP kywoodwrkr

[jhalcott]

corbi had a set of dies that you swaged 22rf brass into jackets for 22 cf guns. Lots of work and fairly expensive.

[onceabull]

DeanoBC: You may have come across something from or referring to Paco Kelly's writings re: dropping Copper tubing cut to approp.length into the mould then filling with an alloy(Or pure lead).I know Mr.Kelly wrote of using that technique in a mould he had made to order by Walt Melander. Not sure about using just any mould??!! Also somewhere out there in Webspace are writings about filling appro.size small case with lead or alloy to make Jacketed wadcutter for use as Big bore plinking bulets, my best guess from memory is 380 acp casefull in 375 Caliber Rifle..Intriguing concept(s) for use when nothing else new to try....:roll: onceabull

[kywoodwrkr]

onceabull,
If it's the same article I'm thinking of they used 45ACP cases filled with soft lead as bullets for some big game bullets as well.
Always thought that was a unique application!
You sure are drawing my old memeory cells out and into action!
DaveP kywoodwrkr

[Dale53]

How about this novel idea? Get a mould and cast some bullets...:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I'm truly sorry. I just couldn't help it[smilie=1:. Being "warped" is not all it's cracked up to be, trust me. Irreverent to the core...

Boys, I am NOT making fun of you. It just seems that way. I'm just kind of laughing at the world in general...

Dale53

[Harry O]

I used to have a .375 bullet mould with about 500 copper tubes that fit inside. You placed the tube in the mould, closed it, then poured lead into the mould. It poured through , behind, and ahead of the copper tube. There was a little bit of a lip ahead and behind to keep the lead locked into the jacket (or vice versa). I never used it.

After I bought it, I found that it would not feed in my 9.5mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer. I was also wary of it. There was not much lip to keep the jacket in place. I question if soft lead would work with heavy loads. It was made by NEI. I have a picture somewhere and will post it if I can find it.

[HORNET]

Harry O has it. NEI used to make these in .375 and .50 cal (at least). The main concern that I remember hearing was always that there wouldn't be a good bond between the tubing jacket and the core and the core would blow out leaving the tubing in the barrel as a bore obstruction. There may also have been problems with tubing size variations and getting good fillout. That's reaching way back in the memory banks

[Harry O]

Here is the picture. I never actually cast with it.

[Buckshot]

..................A friend of mine got the idea, or heard of it someplace of using 30M1 carbine brass as jackets for 35 cal bullets. Since he had a 35 Whelen he naturally wanted to try it. I made him a swage die to upset the lead inside and expand the 30 carbine case.

http://www.fototime.com/C6B9E744CBFE9AD/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/7E062D887B21B61/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/FF7AA2C063894DA/standard.jpg

He was going to use it in a hydraulic bench press to do the swaging. DOn't know how it worked out as he upped and moved to Prescott, AZ :-)

................Buckshot

[TDB9901]

Buckshot

Awhile back I had a wild idea about knocking the cups out of 209 shotgun primers, and swageing jacketed .22 bullets from them. Made a very rough set of dies on the old worn out lathe we had in a shed at work. Actually made and shot a few, and they shot fairly well in my Hornet.

I didn't take the time(or have the knowhow) to make a nose shaping die, so they were full wadcutters, and with my dies being hammer operated it is slow going, but I think it may feasable.

What do you think????

Tom

[9.3X62AL]

Harry O--

Is that slug design a boat-tail? If so, I can sure understand your concern about cores blowing out and leaving a jacket stuck mid-bore someplace. I think one end or the other should be closed on a j-word bullet, maybe closed in the middle like a Nosler Partition being the best possible answer. Dale might have the safest and most cost-effective answer, methinks.

[trk]

The .380 acp cases work, if they're empty. Mouth first - good for indoor practice with a pinch of Unique.

Pouring lead into them doesn't work well as there's no place for air to vent out. It will leave irregular pockets, hence off-ballance bullets.

The OD is right at 0.375" which is the groove diameter of my .375 H&H and Win. They will CUT a clean hole into a 2x4 (leaving the other side jagged) - you can even see the striations from lands and grooves IN THE WOOD.

.223 cases are the same OD. They tend to fold up when hitting 2x4's.

Swaging sounds like a good idea.

[Harry O]

Harry O--

Is that slug design a boat-tail? If so, I can sure understand your concern about cores blowing out and leaving a jacket stuck mid-bore someplace. I think one end or the other should be closed on a j-word bullet, maybe closed in the middle like a Nosler Partition being the best possible answer.

Yes, it was a boat tail. In looking at an OLD NEI catalog when I first got the mould, all of the "semi-jacketed-cast" bullets he had were boat tail. There were two in .375. Mine was the heavier one (325 or 350gr from memory). There was a 250 or 275gr one that might have worked better, but when buying used, you get what is there. I think there were also a couple at .500" for the 50BMG.

I don't believe there were any other sizes available. I eventually figured out that the reason was because of the available sizes of copper tubing. Nothing fancy was done to the tubing other than cut it off with a lathe. Anyway, after looking it over and doing a lot of measurements, I decided to pass it on instead of cast with it.

[BruceB]

A few years back I bored-out the bands of an old 427103 Lyman mould, so that it would accept a .40 S&W case.

With the flash-hole drilled out to a larger diameter, it was possible to cast a roundnose bullet with a .40 S&W "jacket". In the absence of a proper mould for my .404 Jeffery, it was at least remotely feasible for making plinking bullets, if nothing more. I made and fired a few of these, but thankfully finally got a fine NEI design for the .404 and with the addition of my softnose technique the NEI mould does all I'll ever need in the .404.

[leftiye]

44 mag cases could be (are supposed to be) .457" diameter. A little swaging would "make it so." I like the idea of turning off most of the case head leaving only a 1/16" or less at the base of the bullet and a sharp square shoulder with the primer hole in the middle.

[Buckshot]

Buckshot
I didn't take the time(or have the knowhow) to make a nose shaping die, so they were full wadcutters, and with my dies being hammer operated it is slow going, but I think it may feasable.

What do you think????

Tom

................Sure, a hammer swage is viable. In fact I think Richard Corbin at RCE Enterprises still offers 2 types of hammer swage. One is the old original which is just a block of steel with the boolits shape bored into it and a close fitting punch that you hit. Once swaged you flip the block over and whack it over a suitable hole. If you have been living right the boolit is SUPPOSED to come out :-).

The other is this type:

http://www.fototime.com/820D61686DA0E42/standard.jpg

The above is the first swage die I ever made. I used it in a hydraulic bench press. On the left is the nose forming punch. The die body sets down over it. Then you drop in your lead slug. On the right is the base forming punch which the press acts on. In the photo, the lineup of boolits shows at each end of the line the parent cast slug, and next to them 2nd & 3rd in line are the results.

To eject the slug the complete assembly comes out and you remove the nose forming (bottom) plug, then set the diebody over a hole and tap the base punch with a hammer to push the slug out. I had a 6 ton bottle jack in the press but that was too much muscle and lead would extrude back up past the base punch enough to tie it up. A 2 ton worked just fine. You could feel the slug come up solid to know when you were done. Made very nice 58 cal TC Minie' booits. Slow but it worked as good as anything. It was simply made out of mild 1018 steel.

...................Buckshot

[TDB9901]

Buckshot

Thanks for your response, I wish I had a better lathe, and more expertise and time to do something like that. Maybe in time.....

Have you ever heard of anyone having any success using the 209 primer cups as jackets? I am sure the material would vary from brand to brand, but probably no more so than .22 brass.

Tom

[Buckshot]

...............I don't have any direct knowledge of using the 209 battery cups as jackets. I seem to recall reading they'd also used them for 25 cal jackets? Maybe in the 25 ACP?

I met a guy at the range many years ago who was using 22RF hulls for 243 jackets. He showed me some groups he'd fired and they all looked good for a sporter. An inch or so at 100 yards. He said his rifle shot Sierra's much better but these did well enough for his shooting. I suppose that comment might be the crux of the deal. Depends upon what you will accept, or just how accurate do you want, or need to be?

.................Buckshot

[DeanoBeanCounter]

Good Info. From what it looks like from what has been said so far (let's keep it going). Guns don't care much if it is a copper jacket or a brass jacket. Is this right?
:arrow:

[trk]

Here it is. .380 case fired open end first (empty) half-way throug a 2x4:

http://www.hunt101.com/img/481695.jpg

[TAWILDCATT]

I have two C & H swedging presses I've made 38 cal semi jackets.I used cast lead bullets and simply swedged the cup and bullet together.as for jacketed bullets corbin makes presses and dies.Speer started out making 22 cal jacket bullets out of fired 22 rimfire cases.on page 364 of Vickerys book on "advanced gunsmithing" is a section on making dies.also a press.I had a press made from the info in the book I still have the dies but the press disappeared.it was interesting.I wish I had it now.you would be amazed at what people do when things were scarce.:Fire:
:castmine:

[georgeld]

This is a real coincidence for me.

TODAY, I started making a brass .22 jacket forming die and broke the tip off
my tapered reamer. So it's another half done project til I get another reamer.

May make the punch tomorrow.

I did make a couple shell holders for the base. Just drilled and tapped a center hole for 1/4x28. It's about an inch high and fits the presses I have just perfect.

Took that RCBS ram someone sent me a few months ago and cut the top end off it. Turned the OD to fit inside the ram on an OLD Herter's C press I've had since 1958 as my first press. That should have enough power for .22's and .17's that I want to make right now. I've got close to half a bucket of .22 brass on hand now just for this. Been planning on it for a long time.

Buckshot: and/or anyone else with these tools. Would you guys please kindly e'mail your pictures, and IF you have measurements, I'd sure appreciate them too.

georgeld@hotmail.com

Never gave it a thought about filling brass with lead and forming points for bullets. man, now I've got days on the lathe planned.

As if I needed more things to do. Thanks much for all the help??? Huh? Help?hmmm

[uscra112]

During WW2 lots of guys were making .22 boolits by swaging fired .22 brass. But it was because the war dried up the supply of components. Frank deHaas wrote that he'd fired thousands by the end of the War.

Seems to me that some of the benchrest guys today buy drawn jackets and swage their own. Where they buy the drawn cups I dunno. Absolute consistancy of wall thickness is paramount to those guys, so the drawing process is probably far beyond us backyard tinkers.

But who cares? The whole point of casting for most of us is playing with tools, and making something useful out of what is otherwise scrap.

[Jim]

I tried something(well, almost) kinda weird one time(me? Imagine that!)
I annealed the livin' fool out of a .45 ACP case by turning it pink with my torch and dropping it in a bucket of water. I then sized it down to .458 by pushing it through a Lee sizer die in a hydraulic shop press. I plugged the flash hole with a dead primer, fluxed the inside, heated it and filled it with 50/50 solder. Came out perfect. I was gonna load it in a .45-70 over a few thousand grains of 7383, but got scared and never did do it. I was afraid that it would hang up in the forcing cone and blow me and the gun off the bench.
Think it would have?

Jim

[Mk42gunner]

Somebody once told that you can buy copper jackets and pore lead into them

That is the simplified version of how speer makes their Hot-cor bullets.

You can buy jackets from Corbin and a few other folks like Berger (maybe). The hard part would be getting the jackets fluxed well enough with no excess flux. Then you would still have to swage the point on them.

This is all off the top of my head, after seven hours of classes today; and the transmission acting up in my car, so take it with a grain of salt.

Robert