AR 458 SOCOM VS Marlin 1895GS 45-70 MY Thoughts. :)

[JesterGrin_1]

Yep the 458 SOCOM would be a thumper but I have a Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 so I am trying to think if there is any real advantage to the 458 SOCOM in the AR platform.

I know that with a standard 30 round AR-15 clip it will hold 10 maybe 11 rounds of 458 SOCOM and the 40 round clip will hold 14-15 rounds and have read that with some of those high round count round mags you can hold 40-45 rounds. which in the end would make it a heavy dude lol. Plus with the recoil of the 458 SOCOM you are not going to have what people would call fast follow up shots lol.

The Marlin Holds 5 rounds but it is lighter I think and very handy and not all that hard to throw rounds into the mag tube. Plus if walking around someplace people will not really give a Lever gun a second look but an AR Platform they will give a hard look and not a good one in general.

I think where the AR platform and the 458 SOCOM would really shine would be with a short 14" or 16" barrel in Dangerous BEAR country and close range you could throw some lead pretty fast if needed.

Come to think of it I am surprised that all of the Police and Game Officials up in Alaska do not carry the 458 SOCOM in the AR platform. As all they would have to do is have two uppers one in .223 and the other a 458 SOCOM if they felt the need. Instead of a 12 Gauge Slug gun.

And I forgot to mention have you priced 458 SOCOM ammo lol. $80.00 per box of 20. Thank goodness Starline has brass and they are easy to load for with easy to get bullets. :). I pucker just thinking of $4.00 per round lol.

I just now checked lol. At Starline the 458 SOCOM Brass runs 250 for $204.00 and 500 for $340.50 about Double the cost of 45-70 brass.

So Yes I think I talked myself out of the 458 SOCOM as you do not get the same bang for the buck as 45-70 plus there is no big advantage for the 458 SOCOM unless you have a need for something compact that can carry double or triple the rounds of a Marlin 1895 Guide Gun.

But then again if you hit anything with a 300 to 500 Gr bullet going between 1500 FPS and 2300 FPS and it smiles at you then you know you have some real problems ahead lol. And you might have thoughts that maybe you should not have put that scope on that rifle as it will really hurt when that brute puts it up your Keister lol.

But I still feel the .358 Winchester in an AR type Platform would be the Bees Knees. :) Too bad at least for myself it is cost prohibitive. :(

Speaking of the .358 Winchester here is a good read. :) http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/358_wcf.htm

[stubshaft]

See if you talk it out you reach the right decision.

[JesterGrin_1]

See if you talk it out you reach the right decision.

Yep I was looking for a problem that was not there lol.

Is the AR 458 SOCOM Neat Heck yes. Will it really do more and be more accurate than a lowly Marlin Nope not really. :)

[TXGunNut]

Had an old Marine sniper tell me why he likes his bolt guns. He said with a gas-operated rifle you have to wait for the bullet to travel most all the way down the barrel, wait for the gas system to build up pressure and finally cycle the bolt to eject the spent brass and load a fresh round. With his bolt gun he could work that bolt as fast as he wanted to!:smile: I've applied his logic to leverguns as well, obviously. I only uncase the black gun when I want someone to be nervous. Besides, if you empty a GG magazine and haven't solved the problem...you have a very serious problem-hopefully solved by a quick reload.
Gotta admit that 458 SOCOM would make an awesome hog gun, especially on a population control hunt.

[JesterGrin_1]

HOG was my whole thinking behind it but in the end I feel that it can not do anymore then my Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 can do. Well I guess the Marlin just needs a bit more practice is all working the lever. :)

[TXGunNut]

I agree. My brother is looking at the 300AAC Blackout (or whatever it's called) for a quick 2nd or even 3rd shot on groups of hogs. Even considering a suppressor, mebbe a dot sight. I guess I need to show him what a box-stock M&P 15 will do, even better, show him what his thutty-thutty will do.

[JesterGrin_1]

A Thutty-Thutty with a Red Dot would work just fine. Or even a low power scout scope set up.

[Haggway]

I debated between the 458 socom and the 450 bushmaster. I ended up with the 450 because of ammo cost. funny thing is I still look at my 45-70's more often.

[TXGunNut]

His thutty-thutty is a nice pre-angle-eject/post 64 and he still sees buckhorn sights just fine. I found it in a used gun rack yrs ago with his DOB in the serial number, had to buy it for him. A nice 92 in 45 Colt would be quicker and hit plenty hard, mebbe I need to give him some direction.
I think a big-bore AR would make a nice hog thumper but I like my leverguns, even if they have to wear peeps or glass these days.

[Markbo]

I'll challenge any of you old timey lever guys to shoot high power .45-70 loads - no mouse phart loads - as fast as I can shoot a .458 SOCOM. Any day. Or any professional sniper with a bolt gun. Any day. We can bet on that and also on how fast you reload 5 rounds into your lever gun vs me loading 5 more via magazine.

If you carry any rifle with the sole purpose of making people nervous, you are - in my own personal opinion - carrying a gun for the wrong reason.

It's attitudes like that that give the AR a bad name to start with. This is not a black gun vs. wood and blued steel conversation. This turned from a rambling thought process on a choice to bad mouthing the AR platform. If you don't want one, don't get one, but don't demonize it because it isn't YOUR first choice, OK Jim Zumbo???

The .458 SOCOM is a damned fine hog gun. Good for deer or any other small to medium game too. It is NOT a bear gun! It does not duplicate the .45-70 with heavier loads. It is more like a .45-70 special. It is a tool like any other gun and I use them as such... to scare or intimidate people is never a reason to carry anything. [smilie=b:

p.s. Like most other loads, reloading brings that cost WAY down.

[starmac]

You do not see many semi auto's in use in the woods in alaska, there are some predator hunters using ar's, but that is pretty much when the bears are sleeping.
That said it seems like there ar a lot of ar type guns in all calibers around here, but mainly to play with, bolt guns are by far the most common in the woods.

[TXGunNut]

If you carry any rifle with the sole purpose of making people nervous, you are - in my own personal opinion - carrying a gun for the wrong reason. -Markbo


I'm sorry if I offended you, my friend, I suppose an explanation is due. I don't much care for black guns but mine used to ride in the trunk of a patrol car, some nights between the front seats. The only time it came out in public was in a bad situation involving (allegedly) bad people. I like my bad guys nervous, Markbo. If you like them bold and cocky that's your business. My goal was to make arrests safely and make sure all my guys, including me, went home at the end of our shift. Black guns deployed effectively make bad folks nervous and compliant, that's the only reason I keep one around today. BTW I competed in PPC for nearly 20 years, dabbled in IPSC and NRA Action/Bianchi Cup, Outdoor Pistol and even competed in Patrol Rifle shooting so I was quick enough in those days, just don't much care for it these days. Still practice now and then, just enjoy my old-fashioned guns more.
As for speed I only shoot as fast as I can hit. Don't need to carry much ammo that way, especially with a moderate-to-heavy boolit in a 45-70 @ +/- 1700 fps. Had to shoot a PO'd hog a second time-once. Other times the 4-5 extra rounds were just baggage.
Just because I and like-minded folks enjoy leverguns in walnut and blue steel doesn't mean we're old, slow and don't know our way around black guns. Some of us are damned good with them, we just have other interests these days.

[Boerrancher]

Just because I and like-minded folks enjoy leverguns in walnut and blue steel doesn't mean we're old, slow and don't know our way around black guns. Some of us are damned good with them, we just have other interests these days.

+1 to that. I have been through all the fancy Army Training, Sniper School, SAPPER School (the old one not the easy revamped one), and was also selected for SF but was wounded and discharged before I could attend the school. There was several times out on the qualification ranges that I would put several hundred dollars in my pocket, shooting a perfect score 40/40 with my Sharps 45-70, a single shot. Many of those high speed wizbang officers and NCOs only knew about black guns and had no idea how fast a single shot rifle could be loaded and accurately fired. For those of you who don't know the qualification range is pop up targets from 50 to 400 meters, and depending on the range stay up at varied intervals. The shortest time is like 4 seconds on the 50 meter target. The longest is 12 seconds on the 400 meter target while shooting doubles. With the shells laid out properly even 4 seconds is a long time.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Markbo]

TGN I admit that your LEO usage never even entered my mind. My line of thinking was strictly for hunting and I thought that was what you were talking about since you mentioned hogs. I apologize if I came off too strong and I'm sure I did. A little clarity of context helps a lot.

[bigdog454]

semi auto Hog Gun? why not just use a SKS, about the same as a 30-30 but 10 to whatever round mag.
BD

[Markbo]

I don't know who you are addressing that too bigdog, but I don't own an SKS. Wouldn't own an SKS. I am an AR kind of guy. Have multiple lowers and several different caliber uppers.

[TXGunNut]

TGN I admit that your LEO usage never even entered my mind. My line of thinking was strictly for hunting and I thought that was what you were talking about since you mentioned hogs. I apologize if I came off too strong and I'm sure I did.-Markbo

Not a problem, my friend. I seldom take a black gun along on a hunting trip except under special circumstances. I showed up on a hog hunt 10 yrs ago this month with my patrol rifle behind the seat and my "oh-no!" bag in the front floor of my pickup. Guide shook his head, I was just following orders. Took one on my last trip because hogs and coyotes needed thinning. As a rule, tho, a black gun is strictly social equipment for me. I don't have a problem with folks using black guns for hunting but I simply don't want or need what a black gun has to offer in a hunting situation. I'm toying with a .300 AAC upper for hunting but my project list is long and my funds are flowing out faster than they're flowing in. Works for our Esteemed Leader, not so much for me.
And ya'll lay off the SKS's, OK? Those little buggars are cheap, dirty fun! Mosins look like fun, too, but this tangent has no place on a "Leverguns" thread. And no, I don't own an SKS or Mosin but I see folks having fun with them on most range trips.

[TXGunNut]

My apologies, JesterGrin_1. Didn't intend to sidetrack your thread. Since I hang out and you posted on the "leverguns" room I obviously favor the Marlin 45-70 but the SOCOM idea has merit as well. We all "need" another hog gun. :bigsmyl2:

[JesterGrin_1]

One could say it kinda went off into left field but I think it left the field and into the parking lot lol.

But it did help solidify my own thinking. And that is for my use there would be no advantage for the 458 SOCOM over the Marlin in 45-70. Which is good as it saves me Money. :)

[fireball168]

Just rebarrel a 336/1895 in 458 BFG, and be done with it(find somebody else to do it though).

Then you'll be able to shoot 458 SOCOM(with a 35 Remington bolt installed), or the rimmed 458 BFG(with the 45-70 bolt installed) in a lever gun.

It was a moderately interesting project for a more potent lever gun to meet Indiana's 1.625" Pistol Caliber Rifle cartridge definition in years past.

It didn't keep my interest long, but it was fun to play with for awhile(after I got it running).

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive would have to guess that a 458 socom would make a decent big bear gun. My wife shot a 1500 lb water buffalo with the 50 beo and from some testing we did the 458 does tend to penetrate a bit better then the beo. She put two punch bullets completely through the buffalo. I used punch bullets because like i said penetration with cast wasnt what i was looking for. Now stoke that 458 with something like a punch bullet and id bet it would shoot through any bear alive at any angle. Remember im not saying it should be toted by a guide as a stopping rifle but for a hunting rifle used along with some precision. It AT LEAST will give you black powder 4570 level ballistics and back in the day many a 2000 lb plus buffalo were killed by those loads and id guess a few big bear too. Aint no 458 mag but then again i wonder what the percentage of hunters in the field, and this includes myself, that dont go out hunting with a gun that has twice the power they really need.
I'll challenge any of you old timey lever guys to shoot high power .45-70 loads - no mouse phart loads - as fast as I can shoot a .458 SOCOM. Any day. Or any professional sniper with a bolt gun. Any day. We can bet on that and also on how fast you reload 5 rounds into your lever gun vs me loading 5 more via magazine.

If you carry any rifle with the sole purpose of making people nervous, you are - in my own personal opinion - carrying a gun for the wrong reason.

It's attitudes like that that give the AR a bad name to start with. This is not a black gun vs. wood and blued steel conversation. This turned from a rambling thought process on a choice to bad mouthing the AR platform. If you don't want one, don't get one, but don't demonize it because it isn't YOUR first choice, OK Jim Zumbo???

The .458 SOCOM is a damned fine hog gun. Good for deer or any other small to medium game too. It is NOT a bear gun! It does not duplicate the .45-70 with heavier loads. It is more like a .45-70 special. It is a tool like any other gun and I use them as such... to scare or intimidate people is never a reason to carry anything. [smilie=b:

p.s. Like most other loads, reloading brings that cost WAY down.

[Markbo]

Can't aruge that Lloyd. More ton of Bison that could be counted and Brown Bear to near extinction fell to the .45-70. But I have a .458 SOCOM and it would definitly not be my first choice for anything that could turn my car over. Black Bear, no problem. Brown Bear... not me thank you. What gun did your better half shoot that Buff with? I don't remember seeing anything about that... got pics? :D

[Smoke4320]

I own both and they shoot equally well.. actually prefer to hunt with the socom more because of the Black evil gun backlash.. My here its in your face yes I HUNT with it ..
Its one shot one kill so I carry a 10 rd 223 mag that gets me 4 --458 socoms ..Life is good when I split coyotes with it

[KirkD]

Well I didn't even know the 458 SOCOM existed until this thread. I looked it up. Nice! I'm a vintage Winchester fellow, but those 458 SOCOM 600 grain bullets moving along at 1,000 fps would have an enormous punch. I wouldn't want to use one in town, though; they would slowly plow their way through a lot of walls. For hogs, they would be a hoot and a half! For SHTF times, the 458 SOCOM 600 grainers would take out engine blocks, and bad guys with vests, one shot each. As I said, however, I'm an old timer type of fellow. The average age of my Winchesters is 106 years. I only have one modern rifle, a Browning 45-70 SRC. We don't have wild hogs up here in Canada, but if we did, I'd probably use my Browning 45-70 and the venerable 405 grain soft cast bullet at 1,300 fps. If anyone wants to give me a 458 SOCOM for Christmas, however, I would surely be very thankful.

[Smoke4320]

I got turned on to it about 3 years ago.. a soldier ordered 10 boxes of very hi priced corbon 458 ammo from us.. When he came in to pick it up I asked him what he was going to use the $700.00 in ammo on..
he explained his job was to sit in a building at a checkpoint and if anyone tried to run it he was to stop them and this was the best thing he had found..2 shots to the engine and work his way up if needed
he invited me to shoot it and 1st shot I fell in love. at 50 yds tossed a approx. 15 lb lollypop steel target for a complete 360 degree and back about 4 ft
I was sold on the spot

[6pt-sika]

I have several friends who love AR's !

I on the other hand have NEVER owned one .

One even has a 458 SOCOM , he carried it bear hunting with us last saturday where we Damage Control Hunt for blackies . The gun does not impress me .

IF I ever got anything on the AR platform there are a couple I find of intrest ,

6.5 Grendel
6.8 SPC

and a ,

5.56 as long as it's a fully auto M-16 or M-16A1

I have two friends that are old longe range experts and they can do their stuff with custom made AR's in 6.5 Grendel and the 6.8 SPC . So those would be the way I went .

Also had another friend that had a custom made AR in 243 WSSM that was pretty nice .

[Oreo]

What is it about your friend's 458 AR that you dislike?

The 6.8spc & 6.5grendal are fine cartridges but they don't and aren't meant to compete with the 458socom.

[6pt-sika]

What is it about your friend's 458 AR that you dislike?

The 6.8spc & 6.5grendal are fine cartridges but they don't and aren't meant to compete with the 458socom.. I never said they were meant to compete . I just said I liked those two cartridges and don't care for the socom .

[Oreo]

You never said why?

[warboar_21]

I have wanted the 458 Socom for as long as I can remember. I saw a used Rock River upper at a gun show for a great price several years ago but I just couldn't afford it at that time. Then Obama was elected and everything has gone to hell in a hand basket since. One of these days i'll have one.
I wouldn't mind having a .450 Marlin upper for my AR10 as well.

When Indiana changed their laws to allow you to use pistol caliber carbines and rounds that had a OAL shorter than a certain length. My uncle was looking for a lever action and I told him about the Socom. When I told him that it would fit his old Colt AR lower he went out and bought one and has been hunting deer with it ever since. He loves it.

[JesterGrin_1]

You never said why?

Since I started this thread I posted personal ideas as to why I would pick the 45-70 Government over the 458 SOCOM.

Just like everything else it is a give and take from Caliber to Action type. It is all a personal choice. There is no right or wrong answer as long as the person making the choice is happy with it.

Also it is not wrong to ask others opinions about there preferences as there are so many action types and configurations and cartridges out there it would be very difficult if not impossible for any one person to know all of the answers that they are looking for.

[starmac]

I don't know anything about the socums, but I would think if you could load them as potent as you can a 45/70, it would be hard on the actions. But then again, can't you get an ar in 50 cal.

[TXGunNut]

I thought it was an interesting comparison, guns with little more in common than a similar boolit @ similar velocities and an ability to hit quickly at critter-defense distances. I would have never considered the SOCOM but it sounds like a good use for an AR platform.

[starmac]

I would say I still like my wood and blue, buuuut my 45/70 is stainless, so that's out. lol

[JesterGrin_1]

Oh I like a Beautiful Blue and wood Firearm but due to my Chemical makeup I am Bad Ju Ju on Blue lol. So I try and keep with Stainless when I can. :)

[TXGunNut]

Oh I like a Beautiful Blue and wood Firearm but due to my Chemical makeup I am Bad Ju Ju on Blue lol. So I try and keep with Stainless when I can. :)

Gotta be very careful with blue as well, my sweat even attacks nickel finishes.

[starmac]

Sweat, it seems like I remember that, one of them Texas things. lol

[JesterGrin_1]

Gotta be very careful with blue as well, my sweat even attacks nickel finishes.


Well then there you go lol. If I pick up a blue gun I have to use an oil rag to clean it pretty darn near when I set it down or my finger prints will be rust 15 or 20 min later lol.

That is why my Marlin 1895 GS 45-70 is Stainless and my Built Savage .358 Win is Duracoat coated and my pistols are Stainless lol. Heck even my Marlin XL-7 converted to 35 Whelen AI is Duracoated. :). As when hunting I do not wish to carry a smelly oil rag around lol. But who knows maybe the game think I am just a leaky Tractor running around lol.

[JesterGrin_1]

Sweat, it seems like I remember that, one of them Texas things. lol

Yep it is supposed to be over 100F the next 10 days so far lol. But it could be 100 F on Halloween lol.

[TXGunNut]

Most of my blue guns are well oiled or have a coat of automotive wax on them, usually have a day to wipe them down without damage. Satin nickel on my Colt Defender has turned a nice golden color and an old nickel M13 I used for a duty gun would turn white on the backstrap after a few day's carry.

[Lead Fred]

45/70 NOT proprietary

Nuff said

you think brass is hard to find now......

Beside the AR platform sucks

[Oreo]

Did you mean NON-proprietary? Otherwise I don't understand.

[starmac]

Yep it is supposed to be over 100F the next 10 days so far lol. But it could be 100 F on Halloween lol.


Lol We had our first real frost one night last week and the leaves are now starting to turn, beautiful time of the year. Oh yea, and the northern lights have started to get active too.

[6pt-sika]

You never said why?

Gives you something to wonder about doesn't it !

If you like it thats great for you as I don't really care .

And if I don't care for it thats alright for me and you shouldn't care .

Nuff said !

[Oreo]

Well that's one way to look at it. Another is that I don't know much about either and try to learn from the experiences of others.

[DanWalker]

I have only fired a few AR's in calibers other than .223. I have one I built in 7.62x39, and have shot a JP enterprises .308. It seems to me like the AR platform is pretty uncomfortable to shoot harder recoiling calibers in. Does this jibe with others experiences here? I think a .458 upper for my AR would be a riot, but I don't know what the beating it would dish out on the backend would be like. I'm guessing somewhere between "Hockey GOON", and "linebacker".

[TXGunNut]

I think a .458 upper for my AR would be a riot, but I don't know what the beating it would dish out on the backend would be like. I'm guessing somewhere between "Hockey GOON", and "linebacker". -Dan Walker


I suspect you're right but wonder how much the gas system helps. Had a little "fun" with my 45-90 today, guess the SOCOM wouldn't dish out much more of a beating.

[Markbo]

I don't know anything about the socums, but I would think if you could load them as potent as you can a 45/70, it would be hard on the actions. But then again, can't you get an ar in 50 cal.

Actually there is more than one .50 cal available in the AR platform. And FWIW nobody I know with a .458 SOCOM has suffered any action damage.

[Markbo]

... It seems to me like the AR platform is pretty uncomfortable to shoot harder recoiling calibers in. Does this jibe with others experiences here? I think a .458 upper for my AR would be a riot, but I don't know what the beating it would dish out on the backend would be like. I'm guessing somewhere between "Hockey GOON", and "linebacker".

That is not my experience at all. Like all guns with moving parts, they tend to soften the recoil a bit. Think 12 ga over/under and 12 ga 100 semi auto. Which one has more felt recoil? The ONLY issue I have felt is the heavily textured butt plate can sure scratch you up when shooting with only a light shirt. But the same can be said for an AR shooting .223 many 100s of times over a prairie dog town. ;)

[starmac]

It would pretty much have to have less felt recoil than the same thing in a comparable weight bolt, lever or singleshot rifle.
It may be just me, but singleshot rifles have always felt the worst, but most I have shot has been fairly light.