Home-made Lube experts - Questions

[MakeMineA10mm]

I've been doing a fair amount of perusing these pages lately for some reason. (I don't know why - White Label and RandyRat can happily and inexpensively supply us with all the boolit lube we'd ever need....)

Some questions have arrisen:

1) What to do to replace Alox 2138F? (Well, I found the answer. Molly posted the "recipe" [formula?] for making 2138F in the Lube recipe sticky by 45nut above.)

2) With all of the changes that have happened with the formula/ingrediants with Crisco, what are you folks shooting Crisco-containing formulas doing/finding? Does it still work OK, or have you had to change up things?

3) I ran across a referrence to "Phillip Sharpe's EPCO bullet lube" and I've tried searching but have not found anything here or via google... Any ideas?

[oscarflytyer]

I do not have a lube/sizer. As such, started out with Lee Alox. Worked, but hated it.

Then I saw a recipe for 45/45/10. 45% Alox/45% Johson Paste Wax/10% Mineral Spirits. Right now I tumble lube all bullets first in the 45/45/10, then size and re-tumble. Working great.

Next recipe I will replace the Alox with White Lube's XLOX in the 45/45/10. I also got some of their cake lube to try pan lubing with.

Everything I am shooting is <=1100 fps and bullets are sized .001" over bore.

[cajun shooter]

I make my own lube but I'm a 100% black powder shooter and those who use Crisco in lube mixes are using it for the same style shooting. I have never used the Crisco mix as I prefer the lubes with natural products and not those that contain salt.
White Label lubes made a good BP lube about four or so years ago but stopped production and that is when I started making my own.

[Reload3006]

To answer the Why make it when you can buy it question is the same for me as why reload why cast we can buy it all. But I do it because I am a do it yourselfer. Period. I know that I probably would be much better served to just buy what I need and want. But its just not as satisfying. So I roll my own. and I might add rolling my own is as much a part of the adventure as the shooting or hunting

[bsczar1]

To answer the Why make it when you can buy it question is the same for me as why reload why cast we can buy it all. But I do it because I am a do it yourselfer. Period. I know that I probably would be much better served to just buy what I need and want. But its just not as satisfying. So I roll my own. and I might add rolling my own is as much a part of the adventure as the shooting or hunting

You forgot to say "Can I get an Amen?"....to which I would promptly reply "AMEN, Brother!!"

[geargnasher]

I'll give you an "Amen" anyway!

I'll also say that in many instances, I'm better served with my own lubes because I can modify the formula for best performance in different guns and different shooting conditions. For example, using a softer lube in cold weather that's just little bit slicker gives me better groups.

Gear

[Harter66]

I haven't been at this long enough to try a bunch of different lubes. I used some LLA in the begining but to soon I over ran its abilities. I use Darrs formula for everything w/ just a little tweak to suit my needs,more STP less vasoline.

For BP I haven't changed anything but that pint of Crisco and bees wax made last spring might last another 20 years. I'm betting I don't shoot a 1/10 of what some of you all do.

[C.F.Plinker]

I have found that when I start doing something myself I am in for a learning adventure. This has certainly been true of reloading and casting. I know much more about what I shoot than I could have ever imagined and it helps me get better performance out of my guns even though I shoot mainly paper. It also lets me help others when they have questions or problems.

I have to give a big THANK YOU to everyone on the forum for the help they have given me and will continue to give me an others on our journeys through the land of the silver stream.

[gandydancer]

Red rooster used to make a pretty good BP lube I wonder if they still do? used to smell good to.

[mdi]

Perhaps I read the OP wrong, but I thought he asked about a replacement for Alox 2138F. Some recipes call for this specific Alox, and not the alox/xlox available today. Am I wrong?...

[stubshaft]

Perhaps I read the OP wrong, but I thought he asked about a replacement for Alox 2138F. Some recipes call for this specific Alox, and not the alox/xlox available today. Am I wrong?...

He stated that he found a replacement recipe to duplicate 2138.

Crisco lubes that I use have not changed over the years.

Not familiar with EPCO lube. But after cooking up some Felix I do not feel the need to experiment anymore. I understand how the components in Felix work and can tweak it to work with everything I shoot.

[miestro_jerry]

I make my own, most synthetics, almost no ash and low smoke. Easy to clean the bore.

Jerry

[MakeMineA10mm]

Perhaps I read the OP wrong, but I thought he asked about a replacement for Alox 2138F. Some recipes call for this specific Alox, and not the alox/xlox available today. Am I wrong?...

mdi - you got it right, mostly, but I did find a replacement recipe.

Guys - you're missing my questions. I said that we CAN buy really good lubes from some of our VendorSponsors here. (Basically, I was giving them a plug... ;) ) But, if you read between the lines, what I'm doing is research, because I want to try making my own too. (Hence, the attitude in the first sentence of my first post of: "I don't really need to do this because of White Label and RandyRat, but I'm curious and interested in doing it myself anyway...")

As far as my original questions, I guess I'm down to one. Yes, Molly posted in another thread how to duplicate Alox 2138F, and Cajun told me what I need to know about Crisco. (I didn't realize Crisco had salt in it, so between that and the seemingly constant changes to it's formula, I'm kicking that particular possible ingredient to the curb...)

So, my only original, unanswered question is: "What is EPCO lube?"

In my continuing research, I've found that "EP" might relate to "Extreme Pressure (typically Lithium) Grease," which is often called, surprisingly, "EP Grease."

My guess is that whoever put out EPCO lube used EP grease as one of the primary ingredients. I was just hoping someone longer in the tooth than me would know.
:lovebooli

[Moondawg]

For BPC boolits and low velocity smokeless loads, I use homemade Emerts Lube, containing salt free crisco. It's easy to make, very inexpensive and seems to work about as well as SPG, for a whole lot less money.

[Reload3006]

What I use instead of Crisco and have found it to be really good. go to your local market and buy 5 pounds of the cheapest ground beef you can get. Boil it thoroughly then let it cool and put it in the refrigerator .... then just lift the tallow (congealed grease off the top of the water.) finish making a pot of soup you got great boolit lube ingredient to use instead of Crisco. and unless you salted it it will be relatively low in sodium content.

[Horace]

Could you mean IPCO colloidal graphite wads?Made by Industrial Products Co.
Wakefield,Massachusetts.

Horace

[runfiverun]

ep in greases actually refers to solids that are added.
almost every grease made today is stearate based. [it's a parrafinic soap]
and is a blend of different types of [refined] crude oils.
parrafin is found in oil and natural gas wells, but is more prevalent in certain areas of the country.
[the quaker-state has more than penns-ylvania]
alox is an oxidized form of petroleum jelly [a form of plasticized [with mineral oil] parrafin]

[Hip's Ax]

In my black powder cartridge target rifles in both 45-70 and 45-90 I shoot Emmert's Modified, 50% beeswax, 40% Crisco, 5% lanolin and 5% jojoba oil. It shoots great. I wipe every shot and have not noticed any issues at all.

Check the Crisco nutritional information, 0% sodium.

http://www.crisco.com/Products/ProductDetail.aspx?groupID=17&prodID=315

[MakeMineA10mm]

Could you mean IPCO colloidal graphite wads?Made by Industrial Products Co.
Wakefield,Massachusetts.

Horace

Horace,
Good thinking, but I don't believe so. He typed EPCO over and over again, but I guess he could have gotten it consistently wrong? Also he kept typing that he lubed the bullets with it, and if I remember right, the wads would be added as part of the loading process, rather than the bullet making process, right?


Run5run,
And those solids help the grease stand up to high pressure, right? If that's the case, it doesn't sound like they add anything to the boolit lube making process or characteristics, does it?

[cajun shooter]

It was my understanding that the recipe of Crisco had salt but that was many years ago. If it has been removed then that is fine but it does not do as well as the kidney tallow that I now use to replace it.
The tallow is so pure and white and has the smell that darn near ask you to take a taste. I'm still of the belief that natural products far outweigh the use of any man made products.
I use Jojoba oil also for that very reason.
They had guys who thought that if Crisco worked then any cooking lard would be as good and I think that is were the salt came in also. It's been so long ago that I can't remember who did the research and printed the first warning.
Will stick with the tallow and if the poster who said he would never use a pint of black powder lube he has; you need to go outside more ofton. Later David

[Reload3006]

I agree with Cajun but if you dont want to render it your self buy pure lard. You dont want to use lard or drippings from sausage bacon because of the salt. But all animal fats will have some salt because the animals eat salt. but the salt content is very low almost to be ignored. still its there and wouldnt be a bad idea to make sure you clean your smoke pole? but then the Black powder is much more corrosive than the salt so You are cleaning your smoke pole aren't you?

[cajun shooter]

Reload, The BP that I use today and I have tried several have no issues with being corrosive.
That is unfortunately the rumor of many years ago that refuses to go away because of it being printed by persons in gun magazines or range talk.
I've heard people who have never fired a single BP round down range say when I shoot; He's crazy for firing that nasty stuff in his guns. They are going to rust away.
The truth is that even up till WW 11 some BP ammo was used but it was the very corrosive primer that was the problem and not the powder itself.
I shoot three SASS matches a month with my 1873 LA, two USFA revolvers in 44-40 and a 12gauge SXS all with various brands of BP. I shoot Goex, Swiss, Diamondback, and KIK at this time with no problems from any gun. I shoot on Saturday and don't clean until the following Week.
I ask people to show me one time in history where any fight was lost because all the guns were rusted shut and would not fire.
There was one powder that was so good that the can said no cleaning needed until next firing session.

[Reload3006]

glad you have better luck than I did I let my son use my muzzle loader (an in line) so I know it wasnt the primer. He didnt clean it and he was using triple 7 cost me a new breach plug only reason I think it didnt cost me a whole gun was because the barrel was stainless. Something sure corroded the heck out of that gun and I know it wasn't the ww 209 primer.

[Kraschenbirn]

For those wanting to make a 'salt-free' Emmert's Lube without buying commercial tallow (or cooking up their own), most large grocery stores still carry old-fashioned unsalted lard in 1 lb. blocks, which, being cheap and lazy, I've used as a tallow substitute in BP applications for many, many years. While there are some subtle chemical differences, tallow and lard are, essentially, the same stuff - i.e. almost pure triglycerides - except tallow is rendered from beef or mutton while lard is rendered from pork.

Bill

[C.F.Plinker]

glad you have better luck than I did I let my son use my muzzle loader (an in line) so I know it wasnt the primer. He didnt clean it and he was using triple 7 cost me a new breach plug only reason I think it didnt cost me a whole gun was because the barrel was stainless. Something sure corroded the heck out of that gun and I know it wasn't the ww 209 primer.

When Hodgon created the black powder substitues like Pyrodex and Triple 7 they increased the autoignition temperature from 390* for black powder to 740* for the substitutes. They did this by changing the balance of charcoal, KNO3, and sulfur in black powder. They still use these as the main ingredients but the proportions are different. Then, in order to make sure it ignites, they added Potassium Perchlorate. Potassium Perchlorate and Potassium Chlorate were the ingredients in the old corrosive primers that caused the corrossion. You need to be even more diligent about promptly cleaning your firearms when you use the substitutes than if you use the "holy black".

[popper]

I've read here often that bullet lube can be too slippery or not slippery enough. Any quasi-scientific reasoning here or purely performance(experience) reasoning? I expect a bullet lube to 1) prevent lead from sticking or plating to barrel (it does). 2) lower coefficient of friction between bullet and barrel. 3) withstand pressure and temperature generated when shooting. Some say alox is an anti-flux, wax is a friction reducer and scrubber(carnuba), grease and oil are friction reducers. Thoughts?

[runfiverun]

i think of them as carriers, lubes, and modifiers.

for black powder the lube is to keep the powder fouling soft enough that it can be scraped back down the bbl and shot out by the next powder charge,
or to keep it possible for the next boolit to grab the rifling and not ride down the bbl on the hardened fouling.

[nanuk]

What I use instead of Crisco and have found it to be really good. go to your local market and buy 5 pounds of the cheapest ground beef you can get. Boil it thoroughly then let it cool and put it in the refrigerator .... then just lift the tallow (congealed grease off the top of the water.) finish making a pot of soup you got great boolit lube ingredient to use instead of Crisco. and unless you salted it it will be relatively low in sodium content.


and beef tallow, used in a deep fryer, makes the BEST tasting french fries

[Circuit Rider]

Question Gents, I googled Jojoba Oil and found different blends, for aromatherapy, and for massages. What do I need? Much obliged for any and all information. CR

[jfl1950]

What temp does this get soft at?
I need something around 160% where I live to leave around and not worry about.
And what is the mixture we ended up with?
Thanks

[excess650]

I've read here often that bullet lube can be too slippery or not slippery enough. Any quasi-scientific reasoning here or purely performance(experience) reasoning? I expect a bullet lube to 1) prevent lead from sticking or plating to barrel (it does). 2) lower coefficient of friction between bullet and barrel. 3) withstand pressure and temperature generated when shooting. Some say alox is an anti-flux, wax is a friction reducer and scrubber(carnuba), grease and oil are friction reducers. Thoughts?

I DO believe that a lube can be too slippery. After reading some of the formulas guys were using, I decided to give my own smokeless lube a try. I had successfully concocted some BP lubes and used them in competition. One of these blocks was still in a bread pan, and knowing it was ~50% beeswax I decided to use it as the basis. Lithi-bee is 50-50 beeswax and lithium grease and lots of guys use it and are happy with its results. I bought a tube of Castrol Pyroplex Blue (grease) and added it into my mix. The resultant mix was too soft for my liking, so it got more beeswax. Long story short, I found that as I increased the beeswax in my lube, it got firmer and my group sizes decreased. I stopped at 75% beeswax and still don't need much lube on my rifle boolits being shot from 7.5x55, 308, 30-06, 30-30 and 7.62x39. I'm not talking about mouse fart loads either....haven't tried it in weather less than about 35*F, but it seems to hold up in hot weather. My previous baseline lube was LBT Blue and Blue Soft, and I'm liking my own lube better. I have less fliers attributed to lube purging, and first shots from clean barrels are usually in the group. I don't claim to be an expert, but seem to have experimented into a mix that works for me. Click on the thumbnail to enlarge the picture. I'm only using lube ahead of the GC in this boolit for the 7.62x39 at near full throttle. More lube causes groups to increase in size.

[geargnasher]

Excess, Run and I have been doping this lube thing out pretty heavily and along the way have done a LOT of work with wax/grease/modifier lubes. Our recent tests and past experience tend to comfirm two major points that you made: Lithi-bee lubes need to be more on the wax and less on the grease because too much oil content in the lube causes inaccuracy (Typical #2 metal soap grease is about 85-95% oil), and that applying the minimum amount of lube to the boolit reduces or eliminates any purge flyers. Too wet or slick of a lube and too much lube volume often have a negative effect on accuracy. Too much lube is like hydroplaning your car, and too much oil is like driving on ice. A boolit needs a consistent and particular "driving surface" for best performance.

We're working on using wax and grease together with a higher grease content (50% or more), but are using harder greases with more metal soap thickener content and less oil to get what we want. There are several disadvantages to using large proportions of wax which can be countered with using more grease, but the greases have to be thick to counteract the effect of too much oil in the lube.

Gear

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Fellers in East ILLinois Daville area where I started making my own BP lube for cartriges suggested Beeswax and Olive oil in varying amounts due to temperature changes. Have never needed any reason to change. Does everything I need done with BP. Works great with patched ball. Smells great.. tastes good and can be used for any skin condition that needs covered up. Only lube I can make indoors on the gas stove. Only downfall is if bees get a wiff.. They can get pesterous.
Mike in Peru